Smash to the Future on hiatus for the summer!

[Tink]

rofll....i was waiting for someone to bring that up

but on the real....theres no conceivable way you should be putting me, kels, mattr, and darkrain on the same side. ever...even if me and kels got 2 seeds....thats just a ridic thought. i understand it was done randomly, but when something like that happens, theres gotta be a special circumstance or something(switch pairing pools)....all your doing is seeding correctly and bad at the same time.

i know ppl wanna get lucky and get an easy side of the bracket and not earn the true top 3, but if thats the way your thinking, you shouldnt be in the top 3 -_-.

 

[john!]

i discussed this with some people last time i was in IL

random seeding/pools seems like the most "fair" way to do things, but it's actually not fair at all. if places 1, 2, 4, and 5 were all on the same side of the bracket (and these are all guys that regularly place this high in these kind of tournaments), then in retrospect, the bracket was horribly made. players on the other side of the bracket placed higher than they otherwise should have, and players on the kels/tink side placed lower than they should have. by "should have" i mean that a player from the death half of the bracket could probably beat someone from the easy half of the bracket that placed higher than them, in a head-to-head.

previous tourney placements SHOULD be taken into account when making the pools or the bracket. although this seems like it gives established players a "free ride" (it doesn't, they still have to fight through bracket like everyone else), it's even worse to have one side of the bracket stacked and give lesser players a "free ride" while screwing over the players that got stuck on the stacked side.

all in all, it's not really that important since a double elimination bracket usually produces an accurate top 4 regardless of initial placement. but use good judgment guys.

 

[Rat]

there's no conceivable way you should be putting me, kels, mattr, and darkrain on the same side.

Maybe if you'd stop screwing around in pools you wouldn't get second seed.

 

[Tink]

lolll....i went marth vs chris 0_0...no screwing around, just wasnt playing well. but even then, kelly woudlve cancelled me out if they put him opposite to me....putting me on the same side with him as punishment for 2nd seed?....when did 2nd seed become bad? id have been better off with my 3rd seed or 4th -_-(untill they switched it).

just so ppl know what we are fully talking about here....it was originally

rat
duck
tomr
orly

me
darkrain
mattr
kels

 

[sanchaz]

I don't understand how you guys seed. Can someone explain?

 

[ORLY]

again with this ****

you got second seed. kels got second seed. i have to split up people from their pools so they don't play a poolmate second round (like i had to against HIV+). moving people around because you don't think you should be on the same side of the bracket as player X ****s **** up. i seed brackets correctly.

this is getting so old

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Pools are a sorting function. Theres no point in playing them if you are just going to ignore the results to make the bracket how you want.

Btw, theres a good reason you were all on the same side of the bracket. In each quad there is 1 of each seed 1-4. From each pool, the first and fourth seed are on one side of the bracket and the second and third are on the other side, but not in the same quad.

By screwing with the bracket like you did, Orly had the 3rd seed from his pool, who shouldn't have even been on his side of the bracket, in his quad. Tink, if you had gotten first seed in that pool, would you have been okay with having the quad chris did getting first seed? He had me first round, and kels as the second seed to play next round.

The fact of the matter is, once pools are done, you can't look at past achievements to reseed the bracket how you want. You have to be unbiased.

 

[ORLY]

and this is the part where tink accuses me of rigging pools / bracket to my own advantage

blah blah blah

results thread up later today

 

[Euclid]

A tourney where people don't fix brackets. Wouldn't that be a sight...

 

[Little England]

Pools are a sorting function. Theres no point in playing them if you are just going to ignore the results to make the bracket how you want.

I agree.

It should be as easy as this. Seed bracket according to pools results. Divide regions. (If you really want to get fancy, divide those that play each other often in tourney.) Go!

 

[Tink]

chris, noone was upset with the tio made bracket...nothing was wrong with it at all...

no, not true sveet....they seeded the bracket with juggleguy, but matt and tom didnt wanna be on the same side, so they switched them...and darkrain kept trying to switch his seed -_-..you dont even know whats up 0_0(or maybe i dont 0_0 ).

also, theres 3 diff random generated ways to make the bracket with pools....1-4/1-2/1-3 pools being paired(we used to pick randomly which pools pair up)....pools were created to ensure good seeding....not good sorting...theres a big difference.
of course ppl are gonna complain. and it wasnt just me, im just the loudest, so stop just putting tink as theee example....kelly/darkrain wernt happy either and were complaining.

edit: chris, what do you expect me to say? u made the bracket, and for the like, the 2nd time(maybe more), when you got the 1st seed, you were on the easyyy side 0_0....what else can i say? u make the pools, you know which pools your pairing, and then u make the bracket up...either your one crafty mastermind or veryyyy lucky/

double edit: to any negative responses to my post, i redirect you to my response beforehand... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNREtboX3s

 

[BigD!!!]

tink you cant get the benefits of getting a 1 seed without getting a 1 seed

you may get 1 seed all the time and just take it for granted, but most of us have to work hard to get it and are proud of ourselves when we do. it wouldnt be fair to take away the advantage someone else earned just because they generally arent considered as good as you

they tried to set it up perfectly; if you, kels, mattr, and darkrain had all gotten 1 seeds, you and kels would have been far apart on one side and matt and darkrain would have been far apart on the other side. they tried to split up those 4 players as best they could because youre the best, and you guys messed it up by not being the best and getting 2 seeds

you cant just discount earned results because of common opinions of people's skill, thats just one step short of just claiming tom got 2nd instead of you because he usually beats you

im usually on your side about bracket design but you just seem to be wrong on this one

edit: im working on the assumption that the shape of the bracket was planned ahead of time based on the pools, with the projected 1 seeds being spread apart. if the placement of the different 1 seeds was chosen after pools results came in, i would disagree with this placement

edit2: i take back one thing, even with those 4 projected 1 seeds, kels and tink should have been projected to be on opposite sides simply due to how frequently they play, theyre usually teammates, and so on. this problem could still occur with 2 of the planned 1 seeds getting 2 seeds, and i think it should occur if they do. this is not a huge point in my argument or anything, just saying i would have put them far apart

 

[SuperMatt]

chris didn't do anything wrong, but i agree there needs to be some sort of balance struck between sticking to pools results but at the same time acknowledging that things may need to be changed (esp. if people mess around in pools)

 

[BigD!!!]

i dont think things should be changed if people mess around in pools, its not fair to the people who do work hard in pools if we just ignore their accomplishment in favor of the person who usually does better but didnt this time. plus then you have to decide whether or not someone was just messing around or legitimately lost.

people should instead learn not to mess around in pools unless theyre confident it doesnt matter where theyre seeded because theyll beat everyone else in the tournament regardless (which kels and tink did anyway by the looks of it, so i guess they shouldnt be complaining)

 

[sanchaz]

i dont think things should be changed if people mess around in pools, its not fair to the people who do work hard in pools if we just ignore their accomplishment in favor of the person who usually does better but didnt this time. plus then you have to decide whether or not someone was just messing around or legitimately lost.

people should instead learn not to mess around in pools unless theyre confident it doesnt matter where theyre seeded because theyll beat everyone else in the tournament regardless (which kels and tink did anyway by the looks of it, so i guess they shouldnt be complaining)

this^^^^^^^

 

[john!]

i don't think tink or anyone else is arguing that a 2nd seed in pools should receive a 1st seed's position in bracket.

what they are saying is that there are multiple ways to make the bracket AFTER POOLS ARE OVER, while still keeping the pools seeding positions correct, and it's the TO's responsibility to choose the bracket format that separates the good players.

 

[Tink]

what im saying is i cant wait for a results thread =D, and vids, and what john said.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you aren't happy with how the bracket looks, simply look to the pools. The layout of the bracket is represented by the pools. If you don't want player A to play against player B, you should organize the pools so that it can't happen. There are 2 ways to ensure players don't play in the first 2 rounds. Either they get the same seed or they were in the same pool. Done.



Edit- what I'm trying to say is, have some foresight with ur pools. Don't throw players in randomly then be mad when the bracket looks like ****.

 

[sanchaz]

If you aren't happy with how the bracket looks, simply look to the pools. The layout of the bracket is represented by the pools. If you don't want player A to play against player B, you should organize the pools so that it can't happen. There are 2 ways to ensure players don't play in the first 2 rounds. Either they get the same seed or they were in the same pool. Done.



Edit- what I'm trying to say is, have some foresight with ur pools. Don't throw players in randomly then be mad when the bracket looks like ****.

so is there a thread for this or something?

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Everyone bragging about beating people in pools(Joe and Rob), that crap don't matter. Nice try tho. Real talk kids.

good ish to Wayne for doin work at this

nut up or shut up

 

[Juggleguy]

sanchaz and darkatma called MI trash

I informed them of various events in pools

that's all

 

[john!]

WI and MI need to have a crew battle

i think we could take them, but it would definitely be close

 

[LightsOutAce]

^YES. How many people to a crew?

 

[Kels88]

This is toooo funny. I went over and looked at the bracket and said "Damn! Matt, Tink, Darkrain, and I are all on the same side!" Then i walked away and started playing friendlies. I did think the bracket was unfair but it's what i get for going Marth against Tom's Mario. tbh i don't even care if i get 4th seed in pools. When bracket starts i'm takin out everyone anyway. Sheik was the MVP this tourney. no one knows how to beat it. lolololol

 

[BigD!!!]

john, the issue with that is that you are still making things more difficult for good players who worked hard to do well in pools, because youve drawn a distinction between the 1 seeds who deserve it and those who dont. if tink and kels had gotten a 1 seed like they were supposed to (and they obviously could have considering the end results of the tournament) none of this would have happened. putting them on the opposite side from matt and darkrain would just make them have to play the people who worked hard to beat them in pools in 2nd round and ruin the tournament for people who didnt **** around

planning should be done pre-pools, after that just dont let the r bros play in second round, everything else is the players' responsibility to avoid by playing to the best of their ability

michigan would stomp on wisconsin in crews, i dont think wisconsin realizes how deep michigan is

 

[Little England]

Everyone bragging about beating people in pools(Joe and Rob), that crap don't matter.

Beating people in tournament hardly matters either until you're doing it consistently.

Rob was right in making his post though.

 

[Tink]

i only agree with that last sentence big d . Wi is forgetting some top players i think in velynn, shady, moose, and shaeden heh. those four would tap Wi alone :/. add in duck to **** spacies and ggs.


juggles, when u think vids are gonna be up? no pressure.

 

[BIG C]

l

rat
duck
tomr
orly

tink
darkrain
mattr
kels

I understand what everyone is saying from both sides. And as an always mediocre player I understand what it means to get 1st seed but I also understand what it is to have to sort a bracket by pools and then regions/crews/teams. You can't please everybody it's as simple as that.

You also can't have the top team on the same side of the bracket, or 2 brothers who play each other all the time on the same side of the bracket. And honestly if I was the T.O I would have just switched Rat or Duck with Tink or Kels and then told everyone else tough ******s. Yes, it's biased bracket making, but it is (or at least it used to be) common practice to sort by pools ranking and then crew/region/teams. It really isn't a hard thing to do, it's just you can't make everyone happy. Bottom line teams and crews should never have to play in the first 2 rounds of the tournament.

 

[Moooose]

im down for mi vs wi

 

[Tink]

ya, thats pretty much what happend C....they put duck where kels was....after that, idk what else was changed....maybe the whole thing?

 

[Juggleguy]

It ended up as:

1 Darkrain
2 Tink
1 Matt
2 Duck

1 Tom
2 Rat
1 ORLY
2 Kels

@ Sveet: do you really think ORLY should be able to complain about rematching HIV+ in bracket? That only happened because he lost to a 4 seed in first round winners. I think everyone has a right to avoid pools rematches ONLY if the seeding plays out as projected... so ORLY would have been able to complain if he was projected to rematch Tink second round, but he should NOT be able to complain about a potential first round losers rematch that could only occur in the event of a 4 seed > 1 seed upset.

@ Tink: vids will be up Wednesday night

 

[giovannig22311]

wi vs mi im in!

 

[The Good Doctor]

I understand what everyone is saying from both sides. And as an always mediocre player I understand what it means to get 1st seed but I also understand what it is to have to sort a bracket by pools and then regions/crews/teams. You can't please everybody it's as simple as that.

You also can't have the top team on the same side of the bracket, or 2 brothers who play each other all the time on the same side of the bracket. And honestly if I was the T.O I would have just switched Rat or Duck with Tink or Kels and then told everyone else tough ******s. Yes, it's biased bracket making, but it is (or at least it used to be) common practice to sort by pools ranking and then crew/region/teams. It really isn't a hard thing to do, it's just you can't make everyone happy. Bottom line teams and crews should never have to play in the first 2 rounds of the tournament.

This is why I'm happy you are not the TO.
If you are going to change seeds, don't even ****ing bother doing pools in the first place. Or better even, win your ****ing pool and earn it.

@juggle
You didnt ask for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway, not at all. He was pressured into changing the bracket against his own judgement because Kels and Tink decided they didn't care enough to try in pools. IMHO, if they feel that way they deserve a hard bracket. Those changes forced Chris to have to play HIV again. The other reason is because Chris decided to play Marth, and not his main. You can't be salty if you didn't give it your all, which means using your MAIN

 

[BIG C]

This is why I'm happy you are not the TO.
If you are going to change seeds, don't even ****ing bother doing pools in the first place. Or better even, win your ****ing pool and earn it.

@juggle
You didnt ask for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway, not at all. He was pressured into changing the bracket against his own judgement because Kels and Tink decided they didn't care enough to try in pools. IMHO, if they feel that way they deserve a hard bracket. Those changes forced Chris to have to play HIV again. The other reason is because Chris decided to play Marth, and not his main. You can't be salty if you didn't give it your all, which means using your MAIN

That's not changing seeds, if you randomly appointed seeds anyway. It's just switching a 2 seed with another 2 seed. Next time you go to a tourny with some people you play with all the time have fun playing them 2nd round, then. Also, if you're going to give Chris the special john that he used Marth, you have to give that john to Tink and Kels too as that is why they got 2nd seeds as well(though neither of them johnned about character selection).

I mean I've been playing this game competitively since 2004 and have helped run MLG, SMYM, FC, and a plethora of other tournaments where what I said was the common practice, I just don't see what the big deal of separating for crews/regions/teams is. Like I can understand saltiness of having to play someone you had to play in pools before but would HIV+ would have rather played Duck or Juggleguy or someone he came from MI with 2nd round? I would think the answer would be no.

 

[Tink]

ftr, what big C explained, was how tournaments were run forever heh. kishes, me/C, anyone that was big in tournament running back in the day, untill tio came out.

also, he never said change seeds loll...readddd first jeff....he simply said, with 2 veryyy hard 2 seeds, its not hard putting one of them on 1 side, and the other, the other side to help balance.

also, once again, when did 2nd seed become a bad seed that would lead to a broken bracket? when i can get a better bracket with a 3rd or 4th seed in my pool, theres problems.

 

[BigD!!!]

pools do matter, if you dont want them to matter take them out of the tournament. ive never subscribed to the "beating someone in pools doesnt count" idea because for a significant portion of people at tournaments, thats all they get. its insulting when people let others win in pools then just say it doesnt count when that might have been the best set of the other persons life. tink you say you lost to orly and you werent messing around, but then complain that his side was easier than your side. based on the pools results, he was the better player than you at that tournament, he deserved an easier bracket. your side would have been, according to the data, even harder if you and he had switched places; likewise his side would have become even easier. if you dont think that he should be considered better than you during seeding, dont lose to him, thats all there is to it

im gonna stop because the more i read about this the more confused i am about what actually happened at this tournament, i keep seeing different brackets and it was changed so many times im not sure what people are mad about anymore, my points have all just been concerned with the philosophy of seeding and what factors are worth considering

edit: how would being a 3/4 seed be easier? you would just end up playing darkrain/matt/tom/duck/kels/rat first round instead of second

for the record, i understand that you can switch 2 seeds of the same rank, but i dont think it should be done based on perceived skill, only regional reasons/teammates or something, especially when you already planned for someone who should be getting a 1 seed and they want to be treated as such without getting that seed

 

[The Good Doctor]

ftr, what big C explained, was how tournaments were run forever heh. kishes, me/C, anyone that was big in tournament running back in the day, untill tio came out.

also, he never said change seeds loll...readddd first jeff....he simply said, with 2 veryyy hard 2 seeds, its not hard putting one of them on 1 side, and the other, the other side to help balance.

also, once again, when did 2nd seed become a bad seed that would lead to a broken bracket? when i can get a better bracket with a 3rd or 4th seed in my pool, theres problems.

He didn't come out and say it, but he implied that team mates, crews, etc should NEVER play within the 1st two rounds. That also implies that he would change seeds to prevent it.

Anyway, I went to The Big House and played Frootloop first round, which I play at every ****ing tournament we are at together and Vro, a local player and I didn't *****. A seeded bracket is better than a random *** one where Tink and Kels just get 1st seed every damn time.

I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for you Tink, but earn your easy bracket.

 

[BIG C]

He didn't come out and say it, but he implied that team mates, crews, etc should NEVER play within the 1st two rounds. That also implies that he would change seeds to prevent it.

Anyway, I went to The Big House and played Frootloop first round, which I play at every ****ing tournament we are at together and Vro, a local player and I didn't *****. A seeded bracket is better than a random *** one where Tink and Kels just get 1st seed every damn time.

I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for you Tink, but earn your easy bracket.

No, I said that I would use seeds first and then seperate by crew/region/etc. I.E you get 4th seed FrootLoop who you play all the time gets first seed. So when the bracket is made it says FrootLoop vs The Good Doctor first round in bracket I would then take another 4th seed and switch them with you taking into account what pools people were in and who they played already.

Or you got 3rd seed and FrootLoop got 1st seed and you're in the same quadrant, switch it up. It's not that difficult and I just figured people would understand what I meant, and did not want to type a book.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@ Sveet: do you really think ORLY should be able to complain about rematching HIV+ in bracket? That only happened because he lost to a 4 seed in first round winners. I think everyone has a right to avoid pools rematches ONLY if the seeding plays out as projected... so ORLY would have been able to complain if he was projected to rematch Tink second round, but he should NOT be able to complain about a potential first round losers rematch that could only occur in the event of a 4 seed > 1 seed upset.

No i don't think he should complain about rematching in bracket. I think he should complain that someone from his pool is in his quad. There is absolutely no excuse for someone in your pool to be in your quad, period. When changing the bracket, you have to move quads together whenever possible. If you want to change the pool pairings, do it thru the whole bracket, don't just switch some people and leave the rest.

The ONLY changes that should be made in the bracket are when 2 players that play all the time play in the first or second round. And by all the time I mean either they are traveling (WI/MI/IN) or they play more than once a week together. Yeah it sucks that you might have to knock your friend out of the bracket, but thats how it goes sometimes. At this point, we all play each other a lot, so I don't really see any combination of players from IL that need to be separated except maybe the twins.

 

[Tink]

ROFLL...u kidding me jeff?!?

first of all, the C thing....he implied it? you assumed it lolll...what thee?
second....you play each other at tournaments alot, so what? me and kels play EVER tournament....everyyyy one...should be be split up automatically? we never are...were never even given that consideration....even tho were teammates and play only with eachother/vro(sometimes rat) at smashfest as well.

theres no inconvenience, i had to go through oro, darkrain, and mattr in winners....how was that convenient to me? easy in any way?

big D, my 4th seed would be on the other side of the much easier bracket...thats how.

ppl are thinking that i changed the bracket to make other ppl screwed, but i left after 10 MINs of argueing and left darkrain to do it for me....if your mad things got changed, blame him...im sick of this "inconvenience to tink" posts, when it wasnt even me who got it changed to what it was.....ppl are ridic blaming me cause its easier that way...**** off.