Smash Lab: Techs and Missed Techs, Everything You Need To Know added

[Judo777]

I wonder if I should be a member of the smash lab. I have a decent knowledge of the game. Idk it might be alot of work

 

[Flayl]

Still no authoritative frame data

 

[stingers]

Yea I was just wondering where some frame data was, came in here to no avail >.>

 

[san.]

No clue where to put this.

Is there any sort of smash lab topic where I can ask to gather frame data for any specific thing? (like if a chaingrab is possible or something like that).

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This topic is supposed to be the general Smash Lab topic where you are supposed to do requests and what not. It's just that no one has really used it and such.

 

[stingers]

well i request that y'all get comprehensive frame data for all chars
ROB first =D

 

[san.]

In that case, I need help to see how well Ike can bthrow CG DK and Bowser, and if it possibly works on other characters.

I have a video, but with stale moves of grabs and everything, there's no way to tell. The optimal way I found was to throw, run and shield grab (may need to slide a bit) and time grab when their hurtbox extends for a frame or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khHSi_iuzyE

 

[Browny]

Wtf @ 0.56??

 

[Ussi]

invincibility frames

 

[rPSIvysaur]

In that case, I need help to see how well Ike can bthrow CG DK and Bowser, and if it possibly works on other characters.

I have a video, but with stale moves of grabs and everything, there's no way to tell. The optimal way I found was to throw, run and shield grab (may need to slide a bit) and time grab when their hurtbox extends for a frame or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khHSi_iuzyE

We intend to test this, but bear with us, as this requires huge amounts of testing.

Also, Techs and Missed Techs has been added to the front page.

 

[Kinzer]

Would it be possible to go more in-depth about how slopes concern Jab-Locking?

I know it seems ridiculous of me to ask since I'm sort of expected to know, but I believe there are people who may not know that it becomes different (if not impossible) to jab-lock on a slant. I've had this happen to me on Corneria and the first transformation of Castle Siege where instead of being put back into the flop the character is put into a more neutral position.

Other than that, awesome! Progress~!

 

[teluoborg]

Awesome stuff on the techs.
Just to be sure : "missed tech", "flopping" and "damaged state" have the same 40 frames long animation right ?

 

[Spelt]

good stuff, but the "tech roll length" box is messed up.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Awesome stuff on the techs.
Just to be sure : "missed tech", "flopping" and "damaged state" have the same 40 frames long animation right ?

I'll double check that soon.

good stuff, but the "tech roll length" box is messed up.

I just fixed it. I did that before when mods still had HTML.

 

[NO-IDea]

Could the SmashLab publish an official frame data compilation of every character? It would more than likely be the most significant contribution to the community Smash Lab could ever provide short of discovering wave-dashing. I don't understand why it wasn't the first project you guys undertook.

 

[Yikarur]

we were working on stuff like that but the people got unmotivated (and I don't like the format they tried to use).
I hope we'll get into that later again.

 

[Dantarion]

GO NINJA GO NINJA GO
http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitCaptain.php


http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/

^this too.

GIMME MY RESPECT HOZ

 

[MK26]

holy mother of god dantarion is a wizard

(i thought zss's jab1 was a frame 0 attack...)

 

[Flayl]

It's impossible to have a frame 0 attack. That would mean the hitbox would come out on the same frame you pressed the button, but then it wouldn't be the same frame would it?

 

[Yikarur]

it has 0 frames start-up. Thats something different.

 

[MK26]

but his data says it's frame 1...

 

[Yikarur]

0 frames start-up means it hits in frame 1.

 

[MK26]

but squirtle's is frame 0...i thought the two were the same speed

 

[Yikarur]

squirtles jab hits in frame 1 too. How could something hit in frame 0? wouldn't make sense lol

 

[MK26]

It's in PSA format, so you'll have to figure out the timers and what not. I suggest you read this before trying to figure out the in game frames:
[collapse="Understanding PSA Frames vs. Game Frames"]
Alright, so we all know that in PSA, you can view the frame data for characters. However, the way this works can confuse lots of people. Things such as ZSS's and Squirtle's "0 Frame" Jabs, when we just consider them frame 1. So instead we adopted the system of adding one to what we see in PSA.

However, is this completely correct to just add 1? No.

People that say that ZSS's Jab comes out frame 0 are technically correct. However, the frame 0 is a misconception. It is actually the PSA frame 0. In PSA, the frames is spits out are not actually the frames seen in game. Instead, they are the parts in-between each frame. They are the inputs. So I would rather refer to the number that PSA spits out as "input" so ZSS's Jab would be considered Frame 1, Input 0.

For the rest, refer to this visualization:

This is a representation of a move I made up (the frame data would be so lulzy). Imagine that they grey part is the start-up of the move, the red part the hitbox of the move and the white part the cool-down.

Now in OSA2 the picture would look like the following

---Start---
[B]Asynchronous Timer - Frames=2.00x,[/B]
Offensive Collision - Hitbox stuff...
[B]Asynchronous Timer - Frames=8.00x,[/B]
Terminate Collisions
[B]Asynchronous Timer - Frames=10.00x,[/B]
Allow Interrupt
---End---

Now I believe that we can all agree on that the hitbox starts on Frame 3. This follows the +1 rule. As you can see, it also follows the I2. So that is entirely correct. Now, if we were to follow the +1 rule. The hitbox would last until frame 9. But would that mean that frame 9 has the hitbox out or gone? This is where the +1 rule leaves much to be desired. But, if we are to use the inputs, we can see that it is indeed not out on frame 9. This is because we are reading this as the game would read it. It would read that the collisions are terminated on Input 8. Therefore, the following frame has no collisions because they were eliminated during Input 8.

Using the the "Input" instead of the "Frame" system helps us to realize things easier like the FAF. Lets take for example the move above. Is the FAF Frame 10 or Frame 11. Well, based on the Input, which is Input 10, we can see that the following frame, Frame 11 is allowing the interrupt.

TL;DR - When you refer to numbers from PSA/OSA2, start using the input number to figure out the actual frame using this graphic.[/collapse]

It was orignially written for the Smash Lab, but since Dant's just throwing around PSA formatted data, I figure you might as well read it.

the point is i thought the two attacks hit on the same frame but they are listed as having different numbers in dant's data
squirtle's jab1 is listed as 0 frame startup while zss is listed as 1 frame

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Dant's data is inconsistently formatted. LMAO

 

[MK26]

^^would explain a lot lol

 

[NO-IDea]

How would I be able to find what frame smashes come out using that data?

=.=

 

[san.]

Anyone know for how many frames someone is helpless in the water?

 

[Yikarur]

Anyone know for how many frames someone is helpless in the water?

when exactly? it depends on how fast you fell because you have to emerge. If you mean from the "emerging" Point I look into that later.

 

[B.A.M.]

what do you use to figure out frame advantage? I know that you guys are going to take a hell of a long time on frame data ( as NO-Idea said it wouldve been nice if that was the first project of Smash Lab as it is the most important project of all) so itd be nice to know how I can search for it myself

 

[DeLux]

Moderator or Bio, please give this thread to Scientific Revolution! please like all the other Smash Lab Threads

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Allow me to bring up a hypothesis I've thought up.
I think there's 2 types of Startup lag, regular startup lag, and extended startup lag.
We may could also redder to this as False Charge.
These are moves like Falcon Punch, Warlock Punch, and Ganons U-Tilt that have an animation of them charging, but they really aren't charging.
It's just what I refer to as ESL (extended startup lag)
ESL is just something I've theorized.

Now IF this were true, could it bring up possibilities of canceling the ESL, through buffering, or mashing? Just brain storming, have tested none of this.

Defeat my theory if you will, or if you have trouble doing that, find a way to support it.
If that false charging in the ESL could be canceled, then characters like Falcon or Ganon could possibly jump up entire tiers.

 

[DeLux]

Mr. Game and Watch, I've already pleaded with you to not do stuff like this in private :\ For the love of God stop

1. What is start up lag? There's no concrete definition of "regular" let alone this bogus "extended" term. A move has finite time before a hitbox comes out. This can be manipulated in certain moves (smashes, specials) in terms of charging. That's it.
2. You have absolutely no anecdotal evidence to support this hypothesis as true
3. You have absolutely no pac file data support for this either I assume
4. The rest of your theory is garbage excluding the first three points. Buffer windows involve the ending a move. Mashing only applies to certain states.


YOU CAN'T COME TO A THEORY WITHOUT REPEATED TESTING FOR EVIDENCE

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Allow me to bring up a hypothesis I've thought up.
I think there's 2 types of Startup lag, regular startup lag, and extended startup lag.
We may could also redder to this as False Charge.
These are moves like Falcon Punch, Warlock Punch, and Ganons U-Tilt that have an animation of them charging, but they really aren't charging.
It's just what I refer to as ESL (extended startup lag)
ESL is just something I've theorized.

Now IF this were true, could it bring up possibilities of canceling the ESL, through buffering, or mashing? Just brain storming, have tested none of this.

Defeat my theory if you will, or if you have trouble doing that, find a way to support it.
If that false charging in the ESL could be canceled, then characters like Falcon or Ganon could possibly jump up entire tiers.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Allow me to bring up a hypothesis I've thought up.
I think there's 2 types of Startup lag, regular startup lag, and extended startup lag.
We may could also redder to this as False Charge.
These are moves like Falcon Punch, Warlock Punch, and Ganons U-Tilt that have an animation of them charging, but they really aren't charging.
It's just what I refer to as ESL (extended startup lag)
ESL is just something I've theorized.

I guess technically correct, but that's merely semantic, there's no practical programming difference between "false charging" and any other type of start-up lag.

Difference between data and noise, data is every difference that makes a difference. Given that this "false charge" is based entirely on visual cues, how does it make a difference?

Now IF this were true, could it bring up possibilities of canceling the ESL, through buffering, or mashing? Just brain storming, have tested none of this.

Defeat my theory if you will, or if you have trouble doing that, find a way to support it.
If that false charging in the ESL could be canceled, then characters like Falcon or Ganon could possibly jump up entire tiers.

What? Why?

Again, from a programming standpoint these are just examples of start-up lag with no difference beyond visual cues, what would make them at all special that would allow you to cancel start-up lag. Hell at least if you were theorizing this based on endlag there's a precedent for actually finding cancels to it.


If you can find something like this, more power to you, but the theorycraft you've given to justify it is utterly meaningless.

 

[Meljin]

Hey guys ! I don't really know if it is the right thread, but... I was searching for a "advanced techs." topic...

I'm a melee guys, but you may know my Brawl videos ; I bought SSBB J with a J wii, and received it the 31 January, as expected. I made random videos with my Melee techskill & random opponents.

I recently watched them, and found a strange think that may be a undiscovered AT :
There, the Pikachu is doing a down-B on Falco and shielding at the same time.
If you look the entire video, you could see that Falco's shield is absolutely red and not yelloish.

Can someone explain me that ? Thanks :D

 

[DeLux]

Shield Poking

It was Falco's shield

 

[King Omega]

Ganon has multiple methods of flight.

No kidding. Has anyone ever looked at what goes on during Ganon's "super jump?" Falcon can do a smiliar thing out of the FK-cancel-flip with the same input, though it's more of a hop than a super jump.

 

[Chromeo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIxPlWGnraA

How does kakera not grab the ledge at 9:58 ?