Smash Bros. Melee was "too difficult" - New Sakurai Interview

[Pogogo]

Why does no one mention 64? 64 is ****ing amazing. Its always Brawl sucks (true) so play meele(yes). But what happened to when picachu could own u son. And fox shot ms paint bullets. Srsly if you want a caual game you can get into, S64 all the way

 

[Fly_Amanita]

When I view this from the Super Smash Bros. Melee and 64 board, the title gets cut off as 'Smash Bros. Melee was "too...' and my mind keeps completing that as 'Super Smash Bros. Melee was "too good".'

64 is a very strange game, but I enjoy it quite a lot.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I'm getting tired of people saying brawl isn't competitive. What you should say is brawl SHOULDNT be competitive because it obviously is. Brawl has a lot of uncompetitive traits, normally they would refute this game from being compeptitive. Why didnt this happen to brawl tho? Because of US. Plain and mutha ****in simple. If melee didnt make a community brawl wouldve never been competitive. Just ask yourself, if brawl was made and melee was never there to have this huge *** community and it just went straight from 64 to brawl without nearly as much hype, would brawl be competitive? If you think so I think youre crazy.

 

[fUddO]

Honestly, I come in last in brawl tournaments, in what is generally considered a weaker region (I call population-density johns), but can still destroy any casual without trying, in any match-up. There is still a LOT of differentiation between tournament-class players and casuals. Of course, the skills that a great Brawl player have are more transferable, since they focus more on things such as game sense and prediction, as opposed to specific tech skill.

TL;DR
Brawl is more like chess
Melee is more like Starcraft

EDIT: aside from tripping, it's just plain ********.

 

[AllyKnight]

Honestly, I come in last in brawl tournaments, in what is generally considered a weaker region (I call population-density johns), but can still destroy any casual without trying, in any match-up. There is still a LOT of differentiation between tournament-class players and casuals. Of course, the skills that a great Brawl player have are more transferable, since they focus more on things such as game sense and prediction, as opposed to specific tech skill.

TL;DR
Brawl is more like chess
Melee is more like Starcraft

EDIT: aside from tripping, it's just plain ********.

That's true. **** exemple.

 

[Black Mantis]

I'm getting tired of people saying brawl isn't competitive. What you should say is brawl SHOULDNT be competitive because it obviously is. Brawl has a lot of uncompetitive traits, normally they would refute this game from being compeptitive. Why didnt this happen to brawl tho? Because of US. Plain and mutha ****in simple. If melee didnt make a community brawl wouldve never been competitive. Just ask yourself, if brawl was made and melee was never there to have this huge *** community and it just went straight from 64 to brawl without nearly as much hype, would brawl be competitive? If you think so I think youre crazy.

Any game can be made competitive. People can look beyond those traits and play the game and still enjoy it.

http://www.twingalaxies.com/

 

[ETWIST51294]

@fuddo: lol thats stupid. Top player dont have to think about techskill, you obviously never played a game that takes any type of execution what so ever.Hell, nevermind because im totally garbage at melee but even i dont have to think about techskill. If you think that techskill rules melee youre ignorant of melee and you shouldnt be commenting on it in the first place.

Brawl: chess
Melee: high speed chess

@313: that may be true but im 90 percent sure brawl wouldve of been competitive if melee was never created.

 

[AllyKnight]

lol thats stupid. Top player dont have to think about techskill, you obviously never played a game that takes any type of execution what so ever.Hell, nevermind because im totally garbage at melee but even i dont have to think about techskill. If you think that techskill rules melee youre ignorant of melee and you shouldnt be commenting on it.

Brawl: chess
Melee: high speed chess

High speed chess means you're playing chess with almost no thoughts, oh wait makes sense

 

[ETWIST51294]

ally y u be trollin?

 

[AllyKnight]

ally y u be trollin?

no but I never heard of High Speed Chess, what is it?

Because you don't rush in Chess, you play smart and patient (Brawl)

So High Speed Chess would be playing in a rush with less thought (Melee) but with combos. DO I MAKE SENSE?

Who cares if Melee made brawl or what, Friggin Halo 1 is crying in a corner right now with Reach out there we don't see the thanks to Halo 1 blahblah.

Also pokemon is popular as ****. They **** us.

 

[Dark Hart]

@313: that may be true but im 90 percent sure brawl wouldve of been competitive if melee was never created.

naw, bro, we'd all be playing 64 still

 

[Black Mantis]

Yeah Etwist I get what you're saying. Its the players that make the game competitive (thats with anything though)

Also, side note could you imagine an old school video game tournament? Get at my Dig-Dug skills *******!

Inb4BillyMitchell

 

[ETWIST51294]

no but I never heard of High Speed Chess, what is it?

Because you don't rush in Chess, you play smart and patient (Brawl)

So High Speed Chess would be playing in a rush with less thought (Melee) but with combos. DO I MAKE SENSE?

Who cares if Melee made brawl or what, Friggin Halo 1 is crying in a corner right now with Reach out there we don't see the thanks to Halo 1 blahblah.

Also pokemon is popular as ****. They **** us.

I guess thats why the only successful player that rushes people down in melee is shiz. Oh wait. I dont understand why you think that just because youre doing something at a fast pace that means you must not be thinking. Ever thinking theyre think AT A FAST PACE? I mean, not like you would really know. Youre extremly smart but who knows how you would act if you were good at melee.

Edit: and i ment to say im 90 percent sure brawl WOULDNT have been competitive.

 

[ranmaru]

Hmmm, I wonder why I'd rather speed up the pace of arrows in DDR/ITG then keep em slow and all bunched up together. (maybe cuz I'm a beginner still, doing sixes)

But I'd rather play at Melees pace then Brawls.

Although some people say my reactions may not be FAST enough? (ultimascout lol)

 

[Deleted member]

As someone who plays a lot of chess, and somewhat knows the competitive scene (where there's millions of dollars on the line), I can say with certainty that Brawl is nothing like chess in the analogy.

Also, regular chess is about 2 hours per person. "High Speed" chess is 40 minutes per person. If you think that's moving without thinking you're ********. It's moving with less thinking.

Anyways, the whole "chess and startcraft" analogy is meaningless. EDIT: Because neither game is remotely like chess.

 

[ranmaru]

I am not good at chess it seems. : [ (but it's fun lol)

 

['V']

Brawl and Melee are not like Chess in the slightest. Most games require people to think, even in the slightest. Just because a game requires you to think does not mean that it makes an analogy to Chess.

 

[CloneHat]

Blitz chess is where it's at.

@Ally
Are you saying that if a game is made slower, it becomes more competitive?

 

[KillerJawz]

Soooo hey

lets not turn this into Brawl vs Melee

more than welcome to discuss the article at hand. any brawl vs melee argument (which game is "better" blah blah) this is going to get closed.

Repeating this. Seriously keep it to the article, keep it friendly, or don't post at all.

 

[SmashChu]

Honestly, I come in last in brawl tournaments, in what is generally considered a weaker region (I call population-density johns), but can still destroy any casual without trying, in any match-up. There is still a LOT of differentiation between tournament-class players and casuals. Of course, the skills that a great Brawl player have are more transferable, since they focus more on things such as game sense and prediction, as opposed to specific tech skill.

TL;DR
Brawl is more like chess
Melee is more like Starcraft

EDIT: aside from tripping, it's just plain ********.

It's more like

Melee is Starcraft
Brawl is Starcraft 2

 

[Strong Badam]

no but I never heard of High Speed Chess, what is it?

Because you don't rush in Chess, you play smart and patient (Brawl)

So High Speed Chess would be playing in a rush with less thought (Melee) but with combos. DO I MAKE SENSE?

it's possible to play smart and patient at a high speed. <_< see: m2k's marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's more like

Melee is Starcraft
Brawl is Starcraft 2

Neither of them are anything like starcraft.

/4gate

 

[Pi]

don't compare brawl to chess

lol

'are the going to air dodge or not'

chess!!

oh wait i'm mk i'll cover both options

 

[Problem2]

Well that is definitely interesting to hear Sakurai's comparison between Melee and Brawl. Melee has a barrier for sure. You die if you accidentally air dodge off the ledge, there's a respectable amount of hitstun, you fast fall really fast, everything is fast in general. Then there is all the competitive level stuff such as jc shines, float canceling, wavedashing, l-canceling, etc. This article makes me believe that most of the high level stuff was in fact intentional. Wavedashing was definitely programmed in, but I don't think the programmers expected it to be abuse straight from standing on the ground. (so they probably expected people to waveland)

Brawl is floatier, has less hitstun, has faster options out of shield, has a nice buffer. Overall, the controls aren't as taxing on players, but at the same time there is still a decent level of depth to the game. It's funny that Smash is considered a competitive game by some and then a party game by others. I think Sakurai purposely designed it to be played either way and I think this article confirms my theory even more. Sakurai wants new gamers to be attracted to his games, but he wants all gamers to be able to enjoy it and he probably knows a mindless party button masher wouldn't get the job done.

 

[Gamegenie222]

So is Wavedashing built in the game on purpose or what? Sorry If I sound like a noob but I'm trying to get my facts straight.

 

[CloneHat]

So is Wavedashing built in the game on purpose or what?

It was discovered during development, but they didn't take it out because they wanted to see what players would do with it.

If only they still had that mindset.

 

[AllyKnight]

I can't even talk with Melee players, too ******** to understand the meaning of my explaination. I play melee, even if Kage is sandbagging or not, I took games off him and combo'ing with Falco takes no brain. Don't start with the Brawl player capability I played this game for 7 years casual with my friends and watched all of MLGs/Nationals tourneys videos. Brawl takes more patient and you have to play smarter. If you don't agreed, then you just got some Melee pride going in and out your ***. I'm done.

-Very Mad Ally.

 

[GenG]

Wavedash is intentional, it was programmed to carry the momentum of the air dodge into a slide when you landed. But I doubt they knew it was going to be used for movement and migraines.

At the end, it is another example of how much detail they paid to the physics of Melee.

 

[CloneHat]

I can't even talk with Melee players, too ******** to understand the meaning of my explaination. I play melee, even if Kage is sandbagging or not, I took games off him and combo'ing with Falco takes no brain. Don't start with the Brawl player capability I played this game for 7 years casual with my friends and watched all of MLGs/Nationals tourneys videos. Brawl takes more patient and you have to play smarter. If you don't agreed, then you just got some Melee pride going in and out your ***. I'm done.

-Very Mad Ally.

It's not like the things you were saying were being taken very seriously. Trolling only gets you so far.

 

[link2702]

want a good chuckle? read this guys posts from ign, guy named ricktheslick, guy has no clue wtf he's talking about.

I don't think you guys are realizing this. Hardcore gamers of any game will come out no matter what they do. The thing is, the way hardcore was in Melee was WAY TOO inaccessible. Not that people couldn't get into it. People can do anything if they really put their mind to it, or if they really cared.

It was inaccessible because it's style was unappealing. It was a major barrier for the 'normal' Smash players. What do I mean? Melee's 'hardcore' style was the "only a few stages could be played, no items" match. It went completely contradictory to what Smash represented.

The hardcore can still be there, but the inaccessibility needs to be removed. At least, that's what Sakurai believes. I can't wait for the day where major Smash tournaments would have games on ANY stage, with ALL items and such, and skill was determined based on your control of your character despite the RANDOM factors that go on, and your aggressiveness in removing your opponent from the stage.

(which is why I loved tripping in Brawl)

So when people die and say "Man, this is cheap!", you can reply "No, you just suck".

MrNintendo617 posted:

I don't get what your point is.
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Yeah, you really don't. So let me clarify myself. First off, you are most likely going to completely disagree with the inferences/implications of my point. But if you can get past that, you'll understand that what I'm saying, while disagreeable, is still true. Anyway, I'll show you what I mean by using quotes from either me, or you.

1. The kind of play style that arose from Melee is unappealing; therefore Smash has become less "accessible" (in Sakurai's words) to the masses. This style of play has now permeated the Smash series. Sakurai has stated that there should be less emphasis on pleasing that style because that style isn't appealing.

rickthestick2 posted:
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It was inaccessible because it's style was unappealing. It was a major barrier for the 'normal' Smash players. What do I mean? Melee's 'hardcore' style was the "only a few stages could be played, no items" match.
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2. The game isn't a fighter based on being 'fair'. It is based on being skilled enough to beat your opponent despite the random factors. It's what makes the game fun, and tests your skills to see if you can beat your opponent DESPITE the random challenges that may or may not come your way. This is what Smash 'represents'. This is the style of play that appeals to the masses. This is the style that is appealing. And this is what Sakurai believes is 'accessible'.

MrNintendo617 posted:
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How fair would it be to have a Bob-omb spawn right in front of you when you're charging a Smash attack? How about when a pokeball containing a legendary spawns right next you your opponent? Random, luck based factors have no place in a match that determines skill level, and again, nobody is forcing the hardcore style play on you, but it should be there for the people who actually like it and play the game at a professional level.[/b]
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See, you upset that it's not fair. But it's not that it's not fair. You just suck. (Like I said before). There is a way to play games in random stages with random items and gain enough skill to beat your opponents. And because that's the way that is most accessible, it is the way that Sakurai says he would put more emphasis on, rather than the less accessible style that was strengthened in Melee.

It's not about you, really. It's about people like me. People who don't play the game in Melee's presented style. Less focus on your style of play and more focus on mine. Because Mine is both the majority and therefore the most profitable. It would, then, be the most reasonable style for Nintendo to pursue. Face me in that style and see if you don't lose to me. Because I know how to play in that style and win near every time. It still requires skill, and can still be played hardcore. But unlike the 'hardcore' style that rose from Melee, it is appealing to MANY more gamers

ign be full some of the worst trolls in the interwebz

 

[Deleted member]

I can't even talk with Melee players, too ******** to understand the meaning of my explaination. I play melee, even if Kage is sandbagging or not, I took games off him and combo'ing with Falco takes no brain. Don't start with the Brawl player capability I played this game for 7 years casual with my friends and watched all of MLGs/Nationals tourneys videos. Brawl takes more patient and you have to play smarter. If you don't agreed, then you just got some Melee pride going in and out your ***. I'm done.

-Very Mad Ally.

Wow... I would have thought Ally of all people would realize the respective competitive qualities of both Melee and Brawl.

I hope he's actually trolling. Otherwise, its pretty sad that this jaded view what some high level players may have in mind.

 

[crismas]

I took games off him and combo'ing with Falco takes no brain.

Maybe. But high level Falco, does as does other characters. Elliot... you VERY well know that playing Melee requires a lot of brain work as well as tech skill and a knowledge of mixing up both at the right times, come on. Especially if the match up is not in your favor or if the player your against is smart. Axe, Taj... both prime examples of whose characters who are not at all considered high, placed 5th and 9th (respectively) at Apex and I'm pretty sure that took more than someone who rushes in and spams moves. There are tons of things to think about during a match. The only time when things become "auto pilot" is when your opponent doesn't fight back.

Blah, there's not even a point arguing because I know in reality you know the truth.

 

[Melomaniacal]

@link2702:
Well, other than the "it's not unfair, you just suck" point, he's not really wrong. Smash was geared towards his style of play, and casual players view our style of play to be wrong. Sure, it's based off of ignorance, but that's how the casual community views us. They, along with Sakurai, believe the game is meant to be played with the "all items, all stages" format.

 

[Mizar]

I get all the chess and SC related exmaples, but no.

The way I see it Melee requires more patience and strategy than Brawl.
Why? Because when you get hit in brawl, you take 2 hits and you can figure out the next thing to do. If you get hit in Melee, prepare to get a fat combo on your face. In this way N64 is even more **** than Melee, because 1 mistake equals 1 stock.

Basically what I'm saying is, mistakes in Melee have bigger consequences but the skill it takes to space, have patience etc. is somewhat the same (Melee is faster so it would require faster thinking maybe?). Melee is just more difficult because it has a factor of technical mistakes which you can be punished for.

Because of this brawl is also alot more accessible.

TL;DR

Overal: Melee takes more skill because of its technical aspect.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Also, I don't know why people are under the impression that all combos in Melee are just... mindless auto-combos.

Combos are not all guaranteed. Good DI and proper teching can ruin a combo. Most great combos (actually, just most combos in general) involve very precise reads. It isn't just "lol im guna hit him wit allllll deez mooves nao."

 

[LLDL]

I can't even talk with Melee players, too ******** to understand the meaning of my explaination. I play melee, even if Kage is sandbagging or not, I took games off him and combo'ing with Falco takes no brain. Don't start with the Brawl player capability I played this game for 7 years casual with my friends and watched all of MLGs/Nationals tourneys videos. Brawl takes more patient and you have to play smarter. If you don't agreed, then you just got some Melee pride going in and out your ***. I'm done.

-Very Mad Ally.

yeah brawl takes skill, but you have to play smarter in Melee

And kage uses ganondorf.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Melee is not "too difficult". My eight year old cousin loves Melee. His hands aren't quite big enough to do some of the advance techniques in the game, but he play his behind off and he loves the game regardless of the "difficulty". I wonder how long it will take for other video game companies to copy the Melee formula, and start making competitive video games. Mortal Kombat was a SF2 knock off, and look at it now! Konami needs to make a fighting game based off of the Melee engine. With characters drawn in a 2D style similar to the cutscenes in Metal Gear Solid. And a character named Sgt. Vulcan.

 

[B.W.]

There's only one solution to getting another Smash like game that's comparable to Melee..

Everyone here needs to tell Capcom in some form to make a game that works very similar to Melee. It's our only hope.

 

[CableCho57]

I can't even talk with Melee players, too ******** to understand the meaning of my explaination. I play melee, even if Kage is sandbagging or not, I took games off him and combo'ing with Falco takes no brain. Don't start with the Brawl player capability I played this game for 7 years casual with my friends and watched all of MLGs/Nationals tourneys videos. Brawl takes more patient and you have to play smarter. If you don't agreed, then you just got some Melee pride going in and out your ***. I'm done.

-Very Mad Ally.

This quote right here is why I cant even talk to brawl players.
Most are new to the community and blind about melee
"oh its all combos and no thinking dur dur"

what you dont get is the melee community GAVE BRAWL A CHANCE
we played it, some got good, but we all realized how much it sucked

what about you brawl players huh? Ally you played it at a, and i quote, casual level. Play it in depth and you'll probably see that its better than brawl.

Heck look at fiction

 

[U.K.L.]

melee is one of the best ganes ever to me its fast and hard to master not just combos (i still love brawl) honestly do people think mind games were invented in brawl