Smash Bros. Melee was "too difficult" - New Sakurai Interview

[Deleted member]

I'm saying that people would complain as much as they do about it in brawl.

Yes. And because defensively oriented play does not work as well in Melee as it does in Brawl, people don't do that much in Melee.

And, because people don't do it that much in Melee, there's no need to complain.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

You keep changing your argument.

First it was "it's just as powerful!"

Then it was "it's just as effective!"

Now it's "it's just as annoying!"

But no matter what you say, you will be wrong. You have always been wrong, and you will continue to be wrong as long as you continue posting.

So please, do yourself a favor and stop posting.

 

[Black Mantis]

It would be all 3. Somebody definitely gave you an example of how samus can't do crap against falcon if played campy, so it's not like i'm wrong.

 

[DAS]

People can't get others to like something they don't like, because people have reasons to not like it. Some Melee players hate Brawl for whatever reasons and its just preferences of what you like or don't like. Games are made to be liked or hated, for money, fun, and appeal to crowds of people who plays them. A game is only truly awful is when its it widely accepted by most people as a bad game such as reviewers and the general public.

I like Brawl a lot and also Melee, but its pointless for me to try to get haters to like something they don't like its their feelings about it. Basically if you like something that's how you feel and if not that's how you feel too. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[metaivan]

well i think sakurai is a ****ING LAZY DEVELOPER that just want kill the amazing competitive scene of melee

 

[Vigilante]

It might be a bit of an unfair statement. Sakurai apparently worked real hard on Melee, if you read the entire interview. And Brawl, despite having a poor battle system, has lots of content. I don't really think he's lazy, but rather has the wrong approach.

 

[Deleted member]

It would be all 3. Somebody definitely gave you an example of how samus can't do crap against falcon if played campy, so it's not like i'm wrong.

If you honestly believe that this post I quoted is true, then it's meaningless to argue with you, because you will just believe anything you're told.

Do you REALLY think that samus can't do anything against a campy falcon?

 

[DAS]

^ I don't know if wants kill the competitive Melee scene on purpose, but naturally considering that Melee's an old game its going to fade little by little same thing with Brawl if a new smash brothers were to be made. People just going to go play that anyway. Also there more casual people anyway, so easier to sell it to and make it appeal to them.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

This is not true.

Samus exerts some very strong stage control.

Once Falcon is cornered it's done. Hit for hit, Samus will win because she can edgeguard and control Falcon HARD as long as she limits Falcon's mobility.

Falcon has to just run around and try to start combos on Samus and get her in the air so he can combo. It's true that sometimes it's difficult to stop Falcon from running but it's more than possible.

It's an even matchup (maybe slight advantage for Falcon)

Stalling in melee is hard as ****. You've probably never tried to do it, but it's insanely difficult vs. any good player because any player who knows their **** will combo the **** out of you once they get their hands on you.

Nope.

Mantis, you are still wrong and I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future.

Please stop posting.

 

[metaivan]

It might be a bit of an unfair statement. Sakurai apparently worked real hard on Melee, if you read the entire interview. And Brawl, despite having a poor battle system, has lots of content. I don't really think he's lazy, but rather has the wrong approach.

well he worked hard in melee but man that was 9 YEARS AGO and if you see all the masterpieces need a lot of work and i cant understant how an amazing game like melee was the sequel was a real piece OF **** just man melee is perfect brawl is only trash

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*cracks knuckles





Well then you sir (and I think Black Mantis too) are making an extremely bold statement which relies on you having a great understanding of the game. Saying that a fundamental part of the current Melee metagame is wrong is quite a bold statement to make. While I hate to use arguments from authority, I'm quite sure that neither you nor I can say that any players in the top 50 of Melee are "doing it wrong" (unless it's something super obvious).

It's not bold, it works and people should do it more. I'm not telling people that they should play keep away and do time outs all the time, rather to be more careful and patient with a defensive playstyle.

Fox could benefit a lot from playing more defensive against lets say Peach. Peach has issues if Fox plays campy with lasers and makes Peach have to catch him. Sheik could force people she chain grabs to approach with needles and bait it out to get them into bad situations.
Sheik vs Ganon is in sheik favor because.
1) Sheik can force approaches.
2) She has good grab range, Ganon doesn't.
3.) Gimps
4) juggles and combos.
If anything her playing defensive is a lot better in the long run in that match-up. She doesn't lose any of these from playing aggressive since she can do these while being defensive.

I'm not saying that it will shut down a characters, it doesn't even shut down match-ups in Brawl, but there is something that can be gain from playing defensive in some areas rather than being super aggressive.

 

[Vigilante]

I understand your annoyance, just thought it was also possible he worked hard on a game that wasn't good, XD.

And to Pimp... You lose an argument as soon as you tell poeple to stop posting... and you did it twice.

 

[metaivan]

and i dont understant the logic of this guy. you can play in casual form any smash even melee you have items and is not necesary doing combo i play this game in a casual form for like 7 years before knowing about the competitive scene so i just think this guy is a ****ING STUPID

 

[Vigilante]

His argument is that they tested the game on non-core gamers and they felt it was unplayable because it was too quick. Just to inform you.

He probably tested it on middle-age moms and kids of the new generation.

 

[metaivan]

yes man he probably do that

 

[Black Mantis]

Falcon can make samus essentially useless if he just runs away. Like seriously, it is that bad.

so yeah ....................

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I understand your annoyance, just thought it was also possible he worked hard on a game that wasn't good, XD.

And to Pimp... You lose an argument as soon as you tell poeple to stop posting... and you did it twice.

nah, I refuted his argument. Then told him to stop posting.

Then he goes and repeats a bs claim that I already refuted.

That's why he should stop posting.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Red Ryu

The fact is that you're saying that many players who are much better than you or me are doing it wrong. If anyone were to know what is better or worse it's them. People play to win, period. Some people wobble, some people spam bair, some people do lots of different "cheap" things. If playing defensively would work better for them (which it does for a VERY SMALL amount of people, including me actually), then they would do it. However, despite the fact that ALL of the top players have the option to play defensively or camp, a very small amount of them do.

@ Black Mantis

There's a reason why (insert name of top 5 falcons) don't do this against (insert name of top 5 samus'). That reason is that it doesn't actually work. It may work for certain falcons, against certain samus', but not in general.

 

[Strong Badam]

I posted this in the Brawl forum thread on this topic:



My sentiment as well. Sakurai seems to think that as a developer, he has to choose between satisfying either the hardcore or the casual crowd. What he ignores is that he can satisfy both, and in fact, he already has with the game that he maligns in the interview. Melee sold 7 million copies, and 99% of those people who purchased the game were not tournament players. Everyone was happy; we tournament players had some great times, and regular players did too.

Like it or not, there is a general trend in the fighting game genre towards easier and more accessible. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Street Fighter IV is easier than Third Strike, but the trade-off is that SF4 essentially revitalized the entire genre, and now we have a major release every year. That seems like a pretty good deal to me, but the key is that Capcom also hasn't forgotten about the people that want something more challenging than SF4. Those people are getting an improved version of Third Strike.

Sakurai has overlearned the lessons of the industry. Brawl being more accessible is not the problem. The problem is that the design choices made for Brawl gutted what made Melee such an enjoyable experience for everyone, tournament and non-tournament players alike. And I suppose that someone would argue that Brawl has sold three million more copies than Melee. That's true, but is that because it's "more accessible," or because the Wii is selling like gangbusters in comparison to the Gamecube?*

*

Spoiler

Or put another way- Melee sold 7 million copies on a system with a 21 million unit install base (33% adoption rate) versus Brawl which has sold 10 million copies on a system with a 77 million unit install base (12% adoption rate)

why is this thread still going again?

 

[Alukard]

werd jam stunna beasted LOL

nintendo blows

 

[DAS]

Its obvious this man isn't going to make Smash like you guys want it to be, so everyone should just deal with it. Only that might happen is if the Sakurai put the task of making Smash Brothers in someone else hands or someone here is a developer for the game. Its interesting to talk about it though.

 

[Masmasher@]

Back to protesting

**** sakurai

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ Red Ryu

The fact is that you're saying that many players who are much better than you or me are doing it wrong. If anyone were to know what is better or worse it's them. People play to win, period. Some people wobble, some people spam bair, some people do lots of different "cheap" things. If playing defensively would work better for them (which it does for a VERY SMALL amount of people, including me actually), then they would do it. However, despite the fact that ALL of the top players have the option to play defensively or camp, a very small amount of them do.

I'm saying that there are players that could do better if they adopted it, not so much saying specific players who go aggressive, rather their are times where aggression isn't the best play. Being better doesn't mean we can't critique their style if we notice a trend. Like if a player is taking too many risks and it's not paying off, even if they were better than me overall I would tell them to stop with the huge risk taking.

I know what you mean with play style differences, Trela's Lucario in Brawl is known as the Trela Flash for just being flashy, Junebug stays on the ground a lot more than most Lucarios.

But then there are optimal play styles and picked and chosen, how both Trela and Junebug play has pros and cons, however in certain match-ups you need to do certain things or that character is only hurting themselves or playing a match-up wrong. In Melee Fox should camp and play run around against Peach, this is what M2K tried or has done against Armada, Peach does have issues trying to get in on a Fox playing this way. Approaching Peach is making the match-up a lot easier for her. You can mix this up in ways where you can put your play style into the mix, since they know what is comfortable for them. But then there is that and knowing what the optimal way of playing is.

If doing something in a match-up makes it easier or better for you to win, I don't see why people wouldn't do it if they were playing to win. I'm just saying while many players who are better than me do it, I really think they could benefit from doing it in many situations where they rushed in at a bad position, where the defensive options would have been the better option.

 

[Dark Hart]

Camping ***** in Melee, just saying

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Okay so what I've gathered is this
1) no one is still talking about the article at hand.
2) people are discussing brawl vs melee
3) or they are discussing matchups or stalling or something

So yeah I'm closing this topic. If you wish to discuss the mechanics of stalling, create another thread for it.