Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[missingnomaster]

It's the princible of the thing. aLttP Link has *always* won hands down, it's why no one ever debated it.

Edit: Lol@Dryn calling us fanboys when he has no argument. |: Ironic.

Because every time Link's Ice Arrows fail freeze lava, it's a game mechanic, yet every time Samus' Plasma Beam fails to melt rock, it's valid? That's what you've been saying this whole time, isn't it?

Then again, since you're the guy who refuses to give Link a health system, Samus could just have her ship bomb him with its missiles, and there wouldn't be anything left of Link.

EDIT: Ray: Dryn was around when Necrophile first showed up. I imagine he's rather annoyed by Necrophile. The thread was a mess for a long time after he showed up.

 

[the king of murder]

What are you talking about? Both Link incarnations are incapable of reaching the speed of sound, supersonic speeds, hypersonic speeds, and even light speeds like transluminal, superluminal, hyperluminal. Sonic is also a very high jumper.



Of course, which is why I see this leaning to a tie if Ganondorf cannot catch Sonic.

That means Sonic´s only option not to lose, is to run away? Then he has to run before he notice the barrier because Ganondorf traps you in a barrier faster than you think.
It isn´t impossible for Ganondorf to catch Sonic.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I love the fanboyism in here now. I won't touch this thread anymore. Believe what you all wish.

I still don't understand why Ganon's wishing doesn't count. You just claimed it doesn't because of the plot, which doesn't make any sense. If plot doesn't count, that makes everything else a game mechanic. Since nothing has an explanation and is a game mechanic, nothing counts towards these fights.

As for the "Fanboyism," it's always been present. It's just that it's always been in Samus's favor (coughshe'sagirlcough).

 

[Samochan]

What about the "once situational thingy" rule? Triforce needs to be aquired in the land of Hyrule cause Link definitely didn't have it as an item, neither did ganon for the full triforce. This one time occurence that happened only at one point of the game and at set location is therefore unavailable to Link, just as Fierce Deity is for minilink. Alttp Link is shown to do one wish and then be content with that Hyrule is free of Ganon and light realm prospers. Besides we'd be quite the hypocrites by allowing this, but not allowing dragon. =)

Besides the links used in smash are definitely OoT adult, kid and ww links, not alttp. If we agree to using certain Link, we should stick with that Link. Not forgetting it creates a paradox cause YLink is the young version of adult Link, but alttp Link has no young version.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

Because every time Link's Ice Arrows fail freeze lava, it's a game mechanic, yet every time Samus' Plasma Beam fails to melt rock, it's valid? That's what you've been saying this whole time, isn't it?

No, the problem is her plasma beam's never been *shown* to do that. Not once in any cutscene, story element, or anything else in the canon, does it do anything as destructive as a fire arrow, ice arrow, or light arrow.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We're not limiting a character's validity based on his/her appearance in smash, and we never did. The main point of this thread is to bring out a character's full potential.

Link obtained the Triforce by defeating Alttp Ganon. He had it as a item.

Though, Samus MAY still have a chance once I find out how the complete Triforce's wishing powers work.

 

[Ganonsburg]

What about the "once situational thingy" rule? Triforce needs to be aquired in the land of Hyrule cause Link definitely didn't have it as an item, neither did ganon for the full triforce. This one time occurence that happened only at one point of the game and at set location is therefore unavailable to Link, just as Fierce Deity is for minilink. Alttp Link is shown to do one wish and then be content with that Hyrule is free of Ganon and light realm prospers. Besides we'd be quite the hypocrites by allowing this, but not allowing dragon. =)

Besides the links used in smash are definitely OoT adult, kid and ww links, not alttp. If we agree to using certain Link, we should stick with that Link. Not forgetting it creates a paradox cause YLink is the young version of adult Link, but alttp Link has no young version.

I'm not going to say anything for Link, but Ganon has been able (and shown) to assemble the Triforce in two different places. So no, it's not a situational thing and isn't affected by that rule.

 

[REL38]

So looking at this, Ganon can wish because he did so in A Link to The Past, right?

Don't see how that's a plot mechanic when it's part of the story which is canon.
One game, sure. But it still happened. Frequently, according to Ray.


So how did Link get wishes?
I don't quite see how that works :/

EDIT:
So after Link beat Ganon, exactly what did he get?
Was he limited to only one wish or an assumed many?

 

[Samochan]

Well Link only got from gannyboy it after he beat him on alttp, then instantly used it and we never see it again. So that's pretty situational to me. <_< Like, link can't even collect the triforce on his own and doesn't thrive to.

The triforce works kinda the same way as dragon does. If one with evil heart touches it, it'l blunge the land into dark times. However if one with good intentions touches it, the land prospers. Ganon is always talking about ruling over the land when he gets (or tries to) the full triforce.

If the wishing thing was like "wish and it'll come true", ganon would have done much more than just made the land dark and all, like getting rid of these heros that so much hinder him lol.

It also seems the power of the triforce greatly differs between games, which needs to be taken into account. If in one game ganon gets the triforce fully but not much besides dark mirror world happens, it's kinda nothing compared to what ganondorf did with one third of a piece on OoT and what he could have done with the full triforce.

The Triforce ultimately determines Hyrule's destiny, such that if a person with a righteous heart claims the Triforce, Hyrule will enter into a golden age of peace and prosperity. If a person with a wicked heart claims the Triforce, the realm will inevitably fall into an age of darkness. However, it is prophesied that if one with an evil heart were to claim the Triforce, a Hero is destined to be born.[8][9]

The Triforce contains the essence of the Goddesses, but unlike the Goddesses, it does not discriminate between those who are good or evil. It grants the wishes of whoever touches it, regardless of their motives.[10] However, if the one who takes the Triforce from it’s resting place within the Sacred Realm doesn't have a balance of Courage, Wisdom and Power within their heart, the Triforce will separate into its three parts, and the one who touched the Triforce will be left with only the Triforce aspect in which they most believed.[11] To gain the full power of the Triforce, the one who touched the Triforce must seek the two lost triangles and reconstruct it.[12]

 

[REL38]

@Samo

Well, Ganon obviously can't wish for Link and all his resources that help him along to go *poof* cuz that would make a terrible game :/

Also, didn't Ganon also plunge the lands with floods in Wind Waker?
That's why there's a giant ocean, right?
Creating an alternative dimension is kinda a big deal too, right?

(never played a LoZ game which is why I'm adding the "right?". I'm not sure about LoZ stuff.)

 

[Samochan]

@Samo

Well, Ganon obviously can't wish for Link and all his resources that help him along to go *poof* cuz that would make a terrible game :/

Also, didn't Ganon also plunge the lands with floods in Wind Waker?
That's why there's a giant ocean, right?
Creating an alternative dimension is kinda a big deal too, right?

(never played a LoZ game which is why I'm adding the "right?". I'm not sure about LoZ stuff.)

Nah, the gods themselves flooded hyrule when the people in there pleaded for help against ganondorf and the dark reign he was thriving for.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, so here is what I've found.

We all know that the Triforce grants wishes of whoever touches it. So, this would mean that the opponents of Link/Ganon can use their own Triforce against them in this very way.

The Triforce was twice the size of Alttp Link, which makes it an easy thing to see.

And also, here's the thing. "The Triforce grants the wishes of whomever touches it (this means, more than one person can grant wish(es) at a time), and if that person has an evil heart, it will ONLY grant evil wishes, while if that has an good heart, it will only grant good wishes.

I don't think Link will ever use it for evil intentions, so that limits his wishes quite a lot.

You can think of the Triforce as a "wishing object" in the hands of Ganon & Link, those wishes determined by whether the character's good or evil. So, as big a object it is, other characters (namly fast ones) can use it for themselves.

 

[Uffe]

Why has this suddenly come up now? For the complete Triforce, you need Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. The Link's in any Smash games are from Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Link from A Link to the Past has never been in any Smash game. And in order for the Triforce to come as one, you need to separate the Triforce pieces from those who obtain it. And I don't think Ganondorf is going to let his Triforce of Power be taken so easily. And even so, the Triforce when obtained does not come to the one who has completed them as a whole as seen in The Wind Waker. Who touched it? The King. Ganondorf had his chance of making a wish, but the Triforce wasn't even near him. And if Samus can cover a mile within a second, what makes you think Ganondorf is going to make that wish?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf is one character, but you may be right about Link. Alttp Lihk hasn't really shown in any smash game, so..

 

[Uffe]

Doesn't Ganondorf die in The Legend of Zelda? Anyway, the reason I ask is because in OoT, it's said that a male Gerudo is born every 100 years.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

I'm not allowing any Link besides Oot/Tp/Ww/Mm Link.

Attp Link isn't a smash character, he's a different hero.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Well, that changes everything.

 

[BSP]

Super sonic can fly

Normal Sonic can fly as well. Where on we on Ganon vs. Sonic?

@Ray kalm

Page 603 you said Ganon could telport sonic to another dimmension. Why can't Sonic do the same to him? And Sonic could just teleport out anyway.

Ganon will not be able to catch Sonic. Remember that Ganon is under an indefinite time slow, and sonic already outspeeds him normally. He's lucky Sonic can't hurt him permanantly. Can Gann be incapacitated by normal means?

I'm confused. If one character can't hurt another, but the other character couldn't touch the other, is that a draw?

Sonic has an infinite time slow going during every match and an infinite lightning shield. How is anyone going to harm him?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Even if Ganon doesn't get the full Triforce to wish for whatever, he's still invincible, can teleport, can possess, can teleport Sonic, can trap Sonic, and can shoot balls of magic (one big one, or multiple small homing ones). He can also create Phantoms of himself and ghost riders to attack (if we're allowing that. Don't see why not, he's creating them in battle, not pulling an army that he had from before the battle).

And Sonic can't do anything, period. He doesn't have the Master Sword, and light based attacks may or may not stun Ganon (not sure whether it's the magic or the light that hurts him).

 

[BSP]

Even if Ganon doesn't get the full Triforce to wish for whatever, he's still invincible, can teleport, can possess, can teleport Sonic, can trap Sonic, and can shoot balls of magic (one big one, or multiple small homing ones). He can also create Phantoms of himself and ghost riders to attack (if we're allowing that. Don't see why not, he's creating them in battle, not pulling an army that he had from before the battle).

And Sonic can't do anything, period. He doesn't have the Master Sword, and light based attacks may or may not stun Ganon (not sure whether it's the magic or the light that hurts him).

Ganon is moving at about half speed, how is he going to catch sonic? It doesn't matter if he can teleport, sonic can too, and sonic isn't under a time slow. Can Ganon possess people mid warp or from really far away? And he still can't hurt sonic since he has an infinite lightning shield. And Sonic still has Super Sonic to fall back on.

Can Ganon be incapacitated by normal means?

 

[Unknownlight]

The whole "Ganondorf has the full Triforce" is stupid. I'm not going to argue about the technicalities, because technically Ganondorf is allowed to have the whole Triforce, I'm arguing that allowing him to wish for anything is stupid.

In the games, Ganondorf has almost always only had the Triforce of Power, and is known for only having that one piece. You have given him the full Triforce via loophole. Giving him the full Triforce is stupid and unfair, that is my argument, and I don't believe that loopholes in the rules should have more say than common sense.

Sonic still loses though.

 

[PowerBomb]

I still don't understand why Ganon's wishing doesn't count. You just claimed it doesn't because of the plot, which doesn't make any sense. If plot doesn't count, that makes everything else a game mechanic. Since nothing has an explanation and is a game mechanic, nothing counts towards these fights.

As for the "Fanboyism," it's always been present. It's just that it's always been in Samus's favor (coughshe'sagirlcough).

Spoiler

DUDE, SHE'S GOT BEWBIES

lol10characters

Except we're not comparing a gun and a bow from real life, we're comparign Samus' arm cannon to Link's arrows which are infinitely more destructive.

What, arrow to sun lulz? Thinking that the Ice Arrow in OoT is OBVIOUSLY the same exact, unmodified Ice Arrow in Wind Waker?

Link has the ability to wish? When has he assembled the complete triforce in OoT/TP? Just info, plox

Imperialist travels faster than "I wish Samus could be ________" Or something.

But if wishing like that is seriously... like that, then Samus can't really win. Wishing is just that lame.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

Imperialist = what destructive feats? Orite, none. I am against wishing, mostly because it kills a good debate D:<

But yeah, Link wins. *zap* "..?" *time slow, throws shield, game*

As for Ganon, why bother putting him in these matches? No one can beat him except Link.

 

[missingnomaster]

*Samus fires stacked beam, Link's brain falls apart, game*

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

Not without actual shows of destructive power, no.

 

[_clinton]

Bag of Spilling, _clinton. Drop the issue. No one cares. You're not changing anyone's mind.

Except the bag of spilling doesn't explain the event that happens in Metroid Zero Mission...when Samus shows canon proof that she can lose her skills...at least with her old suit anyway…

I mean…how is that a part of the bag of spilling? That is during the 1st mission still...
Oh and I loved that comic that you showed...but I'm getting tired of this argument as well I guess...

If you want to accept the bag of spilling as proof that it is just a story mech. like it is then why won’t you people accept stuff like this as well for the other characters…like for example this stuff that I’ve been trying to talk about for 100x times now or so:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitler4e1mm02
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompetitiveBalance
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax

Those three examples are in regards to Game play mechs like with Paper Mario and the badge system…and in regards to what Ness/Lucas have for psychic skills (again...they have god level PK according to the game script) and how there is no proof that they couldn't really use PK starstorm if they wanted to...god they are "game breakers" as far as their character type goes for “competitive balance” itself anyway for both of them compared to their teams...

I still think Samus is this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OverratedAndUnderleveled

…but whatever ^_^

And he can't move, how can he draw a cage around the animals if they can't move? Well, unless it has no limits.

You are aware that the only reason Wario can't move is because of how art wario works in play right? Why don't you try it out and see what I mean...

And he can make more than poo/blocks...the description for it says that he can make his art come to life for one (also it's the only power with a life up option...because you can draw hearts for one)

And he can't move, how can he draw a cage around the animals if they can't move? Well, unless it has no limits.

You are aware that the only reason Wario can't move is because of how art wario works in play right? Why don't you try it out and see what I mean...

And he can make more than poo/blocks...the description for it says that he can make his art come to life for one (also it's the only power with a life up option...because you can draw hearts for one)

@ _clinton: Wario isn't stronger than Donkey Kong. DK is mad strong.

And so is Wario…how about that? I like how you never look at the videos I posted…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1K9OOjB2k4
Oh and how is DK stronger than just an average ape as well I might add? Because there are several Kongs I can think of that are stronger than him just because they happen to be a “stronger” animal in general…

Also…you people are aware that Wario/Mario have been seen running up walls/across water right? I’d hardly call their speed average like Kewkky says…and I still like how you guys keep saying Samus’ invincibility is real invincibility instead of going by the logical reason for why she busts through foes…but whatever…
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperStar

 

[BSP]

Sonic still loses though.

How is Ganon going to hurt Sonic with an infinite lightning shield while he's slowed down?

Sonic can constantly re generate this shield, how is he going to get hurt?

 

[Samochan]

The entire part about samus not being able to use her old suit because it was somehow stripped from her (while she had deactivated it herself) screams a plot hole. It was never explained ingame and basically it's only there so you could use zero suit samus as some lolwhut extention of the game and thus bringing fort all this zss hentai and whatnot fanart. >_> ZSS part adds nothing new to the game, gumpei yokoi would roll in his grave if he ever saw that added part. But in any case, that was her old suit (lolwut 2 suits, com'on, jeez), now she has a new and better suit, so the old suit thingies don't really apply. I can imagine the amount of stress going through the planet zebes, escaping and then finally getting a break from it all, only to end up almost getting roasted by pirates and the shock of crash landing would've finally gotten into her. Not forgetting this was her very first Metroid mission, she's kinda more experienced on later games too. I doubt Mario could just "scare" or "rip" the power suit out of an experience bounty huntress. =)

 

[Ganonsburg]

How is Ganon going to hurt Sonic with an infinite lightning shield while he's slowed down?

Sonic can constantly re generate this shield, how is he going to get hurt?

What does Sonic do if he's trapped like Zelda was in OoT? Not much, if anything.

Sonic can't teleport forever indefinitely to prevent Ganon from possessing. Ganon just does it when Sonic is here. I don't think it would be too hard for Ganon considering he's smarter than most people.

Raizen, I don't see how the Triforce is any different to the Star Rod. Ganon got it in ALttP, Bowser got the Star Rod in PM. They both have wished from it multiple times. Ganon even get the Triforce a second time in WW, but as far as I know Bowser only got the Star Rod once.

But I don't think he really needs it anyway.

 

[BSP]

I don't remember how zelda got trapped, can someone put a link up?

Sonic can teleport forever indefinitely. There isn't any limit on chaos control usage. There has to be some limitations on Ganon's possessing powers...does it have any range limitations or anything like that? Sonic can stop time too if Ganon somehow does manage to get him even if he's slowed down.

How will Ganon get past Sonic's infinite shield anyway? I could see him getting past if he can possess Sonic, but I really don't think that will be happening.

Sonic's defense is too solid, Ganon will not be able to hurt him.

 

[PowerBomb]

Imperialist = what destructive feats? Orite, none. I am against wishing, mostly because it kills a good debate D:<

But yeah, Link wins. *zap* "..?" *time slow, throws shield, game*

As for Ganon, why bother putting him in these matches? No one can beat him except Link.

Ganon part is true. He beats everyone. Time slow what? Inverted Song of Time? Oh, Link got out his Ocarina. Wait, is Samus supposed to sit there doing absolutely nothing? No, no way. Throwing the shield is still stupid, Samus isn't standing still, and it's hard to aim, moreso pointless to aim against an invincible, fast moving enemy. Imperialist travels faster/as fast as light, a headshot against armored foes, which is an OHKO, would OHKO Link.

Not without actual shows of destructive power, no.

Like the arrows have shown destructive power, right? OWAIT, FREEZING VOLCANO, LOLZ

EDIT: The Inverted SoT doesn't affect enemies, does it? Don't think it does

EDIT2: NO, I DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS MATCH-UP AGAIN. Jeez, it takes up everything and just makes a big bang boom. Not interesting it all. Ganon should just be given the win for every match-up.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

As unfair as wishing might be, the OP allows it. Ganon had the capability to wish an infinite amount of times canon wise, nothing's stopping him from doing so here.

@Mariobrouser: Sonic can't retreat forever, that's against the rules. Even so, Ganon can just wish for ______, to win.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Even if neither can hurt the other, Ganondorf's immortal. Sonic will eventually die of some natural cause. Or from a lack of sleep since he's running from Ganondorf.

 

[Unknownlight]

Not only that, but Sonic can't Chaos Control for very long either. When using a fake emerald, he got very tired out when using CC only once. Sure, here he has seven real Chaos Emeralds, but he'll still eventually tire out while Ganondorf still can't be hurt.

I think the Star Rod is kind of stupid too, but less so than the full Triforce as Ganondorf is known for only having one piece of it.

 

[the king of murder]

I don't remember how zelda got trapped, can someone put a link up?




Sonic can teleport forever indefinitely. There isn't any limit on chaos control usage. There has to be some limitations on Ganon's possessing powers...does it have any range limitations or anything like that? Sonic can stop time too if Ganon somehow does manage to get him even if he's slowed down.

How will Ganon get past Sonic's infinite shield anyway? I could see him getting past if he can possess Sonic, but I really don't think that will be happening.

Sonic's defense is too solid, Ganon will not be able to hurt him.

It´s in Ocarina of Time. The part at the end when Zelda gives you the light arrows.
And what makes you so sure he can´t possess Sonic? Veran was able to possess Nayru who is a powerful sage. And Veran was only a servant of Ganon. Like I said, Sonic´s only option not to lose is to run away. Sonic´s shields are useless since Ganondorf can easily break them. I mean he breaks seals of gods that was cast upon him.

 

[BSP]

^meant he could run away or something Whatever, Ganon wins.

@unknownlight

You can't really prove that he would tire out. And in the final boss fight of SA2, he used the fake emerald without any signs of fatigue.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

Imperialist travels faster/as fast as light, a headshot against armored foes, which is an OHKO, would OHKO Link.

Except Link is tougher, and he's not stupid either. In WW Ganon busted an island. If Link hand handle going toe to toe to Ganon, why is the imperialist even going to hurt him? Really? It's not.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon's on a totally different level than any other Nintendo character, hell, he's beaten non-nintendo characters such as Kain, Kratos, and Sephiroth on other forums (and I don't just mean in terms of popularity), and they're more powerful than anyone here.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just a question... how immortal is Ganondorf to all of you? He's been shown to get hurt by many a different things. The sword which the sages used to sentence him to death for example in TP left a serious pernament wound to Ganondorf.

And Midna also attacked Ganon with the Fused Shadows, which make me believe she could potentally kill Ganondorf as well (if she's skilled in fighting enough that's it).

The Megaton Hammer and Biggoronsword could hurt Ganon in OoT as well.

I think Ganondorf could actually be defeated by characters who could otherwise beat him in a fight. Being unable to fight further should be a loss as well right? Characters don't neccecary have to fight to death perse...

Oh and _clinton, check out DK: Jungle Beat videos. DK is in my opinion stronger than Wario.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Immortality and invincibility are two separate things.