Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[BSP]

Mario, I was only using exaggerating when I said "divine".

Joe, was that a attempt to anger me?

Oh, sorry then. Ganon should get his own tier.

Um, yes I can. I already did. Sonic was shown obviously fatigued earlier in SA2 when he first used Chaos Control. Even though he's gotten more used to it since then, it's obvious that using CC takes energy. So eventually Sonic will be too tired to use CC anymore, and Ganondorf still can't be hurt.

So 1 time of fatigue vs. about 10 minutes of usage without fatigue, it doesn't add up. Maybe it's draining sonic since he's using a fake emerald, and tails even says that hey are less poweful than the real ones. He has all seven fully powered emeralds here, it shouldn't take nearly as much energy. Does he show any fatigue using a real emerald?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Actually, I'm allowing wishing.

Ganon's gotten the full triforce once, right? If he did, then it's powers are fully legit, even if it allows unlimited wishing capabilities.

Why's that?

Ganondorf has never been shown to wish for anything. In TWW he gets owned by the King of Hyrule aka your boat, and in ALTTP he just created a dark world.

Bowser also gets limits on his Star Rod, Ganondorf should get limits on the Triforce.

Why are we making Ganondorf more powerful than he is? Really... I'm going to pull of a _clinton here now but... Why for example isn't Lucas allowed his Dragon power, but Ganondorf gets wishes which he never really actually used in game. =/

Ganon shouldn't be invincible, but immortal. I think Super Sonic might do some damage to Ganondorf, but not too much. If it's Ganon vs Super Sonic, Ganon still has the advantage of being large and bulky. Super Sonic just wouldn't be able to do much to him, but then again... Ganon is too slow to hit Sonic as well.

I say a draw maybe? Is Sonic still allowed to stay Super for unlimited time? If not, Ganon will beat him easily.

 

[missingnomaster]

Ganon shouldn't be invincible, but immortal. I think Super Sonic might do some damage to Ganondorf, but not too much.

I say a draw maybe? Is Sonic still allowed to stay Super for unlimited time? If not, Ganon will beat him easily.

Any assault that does not repel evil is lol to Ganondorf. In TP, when you first see him in the cutscene he doesn't have the ToP. His hands are bound in giant chains, and the sages ram a sword through his chest. He then gets the ToP (apparently as part of a divine prank of sorts).He breaks the chains, rushes forward and palm thrusts one of the sages, who disintegrates. He then starts laughing and pulls the sword from his chest without flinching or showing any sign of pain at all.

Actually, It might have been easier to just link the video to you, but to late now.

I agree with the matchup being a draw.
Infinite Super Sonic hasn't been decided. However, Sonic apparently has a way to get infinite Lightning Shields and to keep foes under a permanent time slow. So even without Super Sonic, Sonic can remain invulnerable.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I know that. I'm currently playing Twilight Princess, that's why I came up with this in the first place. Actually, I've just seen the things with the Sages myself cause I've just completed the Artriber Grounds.

I don't think he wasn't blessed when he got sentenced. Zelda said for example to Link that she was "also blessed with special powers" when she was born. So if Zelda and Link are born with their powers, why should Ganondorf be different? He just didn't use his power up untill he got stabbed.

Besides, if we believe the timeline **** people brought up... Ganondorf in TP is the same as in OoT, where he already got the Triforce of Power when he entered the Sacred Realm. Yet, it didn't helped him getting captured (as the sages also mentioned he was blind to danger by his lust for power) and getting stabbed in the chest.

I just don't think Ganon is completely invincible. He's still too much for any character here to handle, but at least he's not truely invincible, just immortal perhaps.

 

[BSP]

that limit on Super Sonic is still incorrect btw since no one knows his ring max. (but i understand why we're currently using it) Can we make it 9999? Or how do we know that Sonic even has a limit?

 

[PowerBomb]

Well, what's the numeric value associated with the rings he can collect? We know it goes past 999, but it might stop at 1337 for all we know.

EDIT: Happy Holidays to you guys, and a Merry Christmas

 

[Unknownlight]

So 1 time of fatigue vs. about 10 minutes of usage without fatigue, it doesn't add up. Maybe it's draining sonic since he's using a fake emerald, and tails even says that hey are less poweful than the real ones. He has all seven fully powered emeralds here, it shouldn't take nearly as much energy. Does he show any fatigue using a real emerald?

You're missing my point. He was shown fatigued once when using Chaos Control. While he's obviously more used to it now (which means that he doesn't get nearly as tired) that event still proves that using Chaos Control takes energy. Sonic does not have an unlimited amount of energy, so eventually he'll have to stop using CC.

And, by the way, Merry Christmas all!

 

[missingnomaster]

I don't think he wasn't blessed when he got sentenced. Zelda said for example to Link that she was "also blessed with special powers" when she was born. So if Zelda and Link are born with their powers, why should Ganondorf be different? He just didn't use his power up untill he got stabbed.
~~~
Besides, if we believe the timeline **** people brought up... Ganondorf in TP is the same as in OoT, where he already got the Triforce of Power when he entered the Sacred Realm. Yet, it didn't helped him getting captured (as the sages also mentioned he was blind to danger by his lust for power) and getting stabbed in the chest.
~~~
I just don't think Ganon is completely invincible. He's still too much for any character here to handle, but at least he's not truely invincible, just immortal perhaps.

Yet it would really make no sense for Ganondorf to allow himself to be captured and impaled by the sages if we was capable of WTFpwning them the whole time, and all they could do to him was seal him with the Twilight Mirror. Plus, he clearly showed pain when he was stabbed, but not when he pulled it out.
~~~
And yet, what you said here makes sense, as far as Ganondorf still having the ToP. But as far as him being blind to danger, even when he was resurrected without a brain, Ganon has never been so dumb that he would not try to fight back, especially if would be so easily capable of winning. Apparently we have a rather large plot hole in regards to that cutscene.
~~~
Well, he's said himself that he can only be harmed by a weapon that can repel evil. And when he has the ToP, that's generally true. True, there's the Biggoron Sword in OoT, but Ganon couldn't even be killed with the Master Sword in that game, so they had to seal him away.

Oh yeah, and Happy Holidays to everyone =)

 

[smashkng]

Even if Ganon gets killed by the MS, he gets his life back after lots of years.

 

[missingnomaster]

Though that really makes no difference in this thread.

 

[BSP]

Well, what's the numeric value associated with the rings he can collect? We know it goes past 999, but it might stop at 1337 for all we know.

EDIT: Happy Holidays to you guys, and a Merry Christmas

It may, IDK. But we've proved that the 999 ring limit is not true, why are we placing further limits on Sonic?

You're missing my point. He was shown fatigued once when using Chaos Control. While he's obviously more used to it now (which means that he doesn't get nearly as tired) that event still proves that using Chaos Control takes energy. Sonic does not have an unlimited amount of energy, so eventually he'll have to stop using CC.

And, by the way, Merry Christmas all!

But still, it was a fake emerald, and he's using real ones here. Fake emerald CC =/= Real emerald CC. You would have to find him showing fatigue after using a real emerald. Of course the fake emerald would take energy, since it is less powerful than the real one.

 

[Unknownlight]

But still, it was a fake emerald, and he's using real ones here. Fake emerald CC =/= Real emerald CC. You would have to find him showing fatigue after using a real emerald.

No, I don't. Fake Chaos Emeralds have "the exact same properties and wavelengths" as the real Emeralds, the just have less energy within them. So, as fake Emerald have the same properties as real ones, Sonic will eventually get tired out.

 

[BSP]

Except the energy, which is the most important part. If the real emerald already has a vast amount of energy in it, why would Sonic have to use any?

As I was saying, we disproved Sonic's 999 ring limit, and now we're limiting him more. Why?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Diddy, you should learn to read previous posts, and since you didn't, I won't bother with a reply.

As for Lucas and the Dragon, I have never played any Earthbound games, so I'm clueless. Personally, if it does whatever it does, it should be allowed.

 

[Unknownlight]

Except the energy, which is the most important part. If the real emerald already has a vast amount of energy in it, why would Sonic have to use any?

As I was saying, we disproved Sonic's 999 ring limit, and now we're limiting him more. Why?

You're still missing my point. What's going to happen first: Sonic getting tired out from constantly using Chaos Control or Ganondorf inexplicably losing his immortality?

Because I'm following canon. Where is Sonic going to get all those rings, anyway?

 

[missingnomaster]

Sonic is allowed to start the match with his max rings already collected.

Wasn't it said somewhere that the real Chaos Emeralds have unlimited power stored in them, or something of a similar effect?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It doesn't matter what Sonic starts off with in this match-up. He's losing anyway.

 

[BSP]

You're still missing my point. What's going to happen first: Sonic getting tired out from constantly using Chaos Control or Ganondorf inexplicably losing his immortality?

Because I'm following canon. Where is Sonic going to get all those rings, anyway?

The CC with real emeralds doesn't tire Sonic out though. If the emeralds already have their limitless energy in them, why would Sonic have to make any input? He wouldn't right? So he wouldn't get tired from using CC. And where are you getting constantly from? He still has a time slow going, and can stop time if he needs to.

This CC arguement is pointless anyway, since Sonic can't hurt Ganon. What sets apart the things that can hurt Ganon from what can't? Is it "the power to repel evil?" Sonic can't harm him, but his defense is really solid. Can Ganon just look at Sonic and do something and instantly win? If not, this could be a tie. Sonic can't beat ganon, but are we positive that Ganon will be able to beat Sonic? He has the power to, but I don't think we are giving Sonic's defenses enough credit. Sonic doesn't HAVE to retreat. Does standing your ground count as losing too?

Sonic can prepare for these battles, so he could go to anywhere he's been to in his games. That's a lot of rings waiting to be collected. And again, his limit is not 999, and I don't know why we're setting more limits onto him.

 

[missingnomaster]

It doesn't matter what Sonic starts off with in this match-up. He's losing anyway.

Such a topic is of importance to Sonic's matchups in general. We are allowed to discuss other matchups while the main one is going on.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That is why I said "in this match-up".

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE PSYCHIC TORMENTOR Vs. THE STAR FOX

Mewtwo Vs. Fox

:mewtwo: Vs.

Round 5, Match 4.

Okay, moving on.

 

[PowerBomb]

Embargo is range limited, fails to work v. Fox anyway since the Arwing is not a held item. Aura Sphere might deal some damage, but its mechanics will be determined by either PMD mechanics or the actual game mechanics. Anyway, it's also range limited like Embargo (missing on moves such as Dig/Dive/Fly). The Arwing can fire pretty quickly, can't it?

I'm leaning more towards Fox for this one, but Aura Sphere and Recover abuse might help Mewtwo come out on top.

 

[missingnomaster]

Protect
Rain Dance/Calm Mind
Thunder
Recover

That's what I could come up with...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why Protect? Calm Mind alone would be good. Calm Mind + Recover is a pretty good solution for Mewtwo to tank the Arwing's lasers.

Thunder is a strong move, especially with Calm Mind. If Mewtwo's properly set up, it's likely a OHKO on Fox. Rain Dance is an option of coarse yeah, but likely Mewtwo could do without. Rain would make it a bit harder for Fox to hit Mewtwo... maybe.

I'm leaning towards Mewtwo here.

EDIT: Oh and merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[Samochan]

Hm, thunder is actually more powerful than aura sphere with that 100% accuracy and possible paralysis (dunno how that would work against arwing though, but a flying arwing makes thunder 100% accurate). Calm mind to possibly boost, sub + recover to block and recover damage.

Shame gravity is a move tutor move. That would end the matchup real quick.

Trick room should work well on this matchup though, though while not contact move, is affected by brightpowder, therefore avoidable. :/

What would status effect do to arwing? Would they affect Fox inside, such as paralysis? Getting his arwing frozen would prolly drop him down right away though.

Hail + blizzard combo? Hail makes blizzard 100% accurate and it can even bypass protect + detect with 30% accuracy when hail is in effect. Mewtwo could negate hail effect with leftovers and just sub+recover till he gets a lucky shot with 9,8% chance of frozen solid.

Sub is needed if fox decides to smart bomb poor mewtwo instead of lasering, so is recover to heal the damage and substitute's 1/4th hp loss. Other attacks could be something akin to hail/blizzard combo or cm/thunder.

 

[_clinton]

Sonic losing to Ganondorf is BS…just saying…anyway going on…

Clinton, before you accuse my lack of reading, please read my comments more thoroughly yourself. =) I said "metroid mission", to mean it was her first full fledged mission on zebes to keep metroids outta MB's posssesson. I'm not ignorant to her status as a bounty hunter before her first zebes mission.

You worded it like it was her 1st “deadly” mission though…the back story for the games clearly stat that they aren’t her 1st “deadly” missions (Ironic that I’m saying “deadly” missions like there is no “non deadly” ones out there huh?)

The reason why she survived was never explained in the game.

She is in her "zero suit"

That is what happens to her if she loses her power suit in case you seem to be forgetting that...you know…how she gets a game over usually…

The crashing of her ship cost her control over her power suit that she had at the time…the same type of thing that Ness and his team just went “meh” towards and walked away w/o a scratch on them in EB…

God…The guy who made the game even explains it…

Look it up please:
http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/development/faq.html
It’s translated here:
http://forum.fanfiction.net/topic/4819/1419028/1/

Then it's never said how she even survived the crash landing when she had her suit disabled for the whole time.

The suit is connected to her subconsciously in case you don’t get that…it wouldn’t be that hard to put it back on if she had time to do it…god…MP3 clearly shows that it only takes less than a minute to do so…It only takes 5-6 seconds actually…
1:06-1:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGeYTOJUqKs&feature=related

It certainly beats something like Sailor Moon huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LF29rtg7W8

^_^

Then the fact that some ancient suit > her newer suit given when she was a teenager is kinda ridiculous. But I guess the old one is just better cause it's ancient and supports ancient chozo technology and more compatible in many other ways. <_<

That is pretty much what I said…

It's never said ingame that the suit she's given is some sorta old model either, nor are the unknown items staten to be incompatible with the current suit because they are ancient. They are simply incompatible, which could be also accounted to them being new and would make a lot more sense to upgrade her suit to a newer model in any case.

Look up “powersuit of legend” please…
http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/development/faq.html

It’s translated here:
http://forum.fanfiction.net/topic/4819/1419028/1/

It’s an older suit that Samus gets…ok…

Nah not like that.

But I like DK in Super Smash Bros Murder =,(

He’s funny ^_^

As for proof... he can take down a space ship, gaint robots (DK: Jungle Climber),

On another note…the same race of people DK ended up saving in that game…let him and Diddy pig out on bananas for their reward at the end of the game…btw they are a banana race people in case you don’t get that…am I the only one who finds that sick as hell?

Oh and I like how you don’t think space ships, and giant robots aren’t one Wario’s list…Captain Syrup would like to have a word with you…
You know…her greed and smarts match Wario’s and even beat him sometimes. Fun fact…Wario isn’t stupid in case you don’t get that already…the man made a teleportation device in a matter of seconds…his one weakness is in a funny way…his greed…

jungle creatures many many times larger than him, his Sound Wave attack could destroy a gaint snowball (Jungle Beat), he punched K.Rool out of his ship at the end of DKC2. He's also good in material arts even, as he beat other Kong Kings (lolz) who are specialised in karate, ninja skills and sumo (Karate Kong, Ninja Kong, Sumo Kong for real).

Wario has killed genies (Mario Land 3: Wario Land), various other wish granting beings (Wario Land 3) They have to be god level for sure or at least around it…

Adding to that list he has ancient all powerful demons (Wario World/Wario Land 4/Wario: Master of Disguise)

Plus his newest beaten foe is the Shake King…which I really don’t know how to classify him with…

And his reason for beating them…is all just because they got in the way of a “single gold coin” that he wanted…isn’t that funny?

BTW…I still don’t see how DK beating other monkeys/protecting his clan from various things does nothing more than prove my point about DK only being the alpha male of his pack…Wario is by far more impressive in his resume…

Oh and he was in Punch Out Wii. One of the hardest characters to beat so I've read..

Meh…he likes to taunt your *** a lot…you know…because that is how you beat that game in the 1st place...
Little Mac is 5 ft 7 in, 107 lb…He is 201 pounds less than what Wario is…
DK is 800 pounds according to DK64…

Ganon has both immortality and invincibility..

Because of the triforce...which is a god power...the list of characters using god powers/stuff that is like god powers or close in this thread is equal to:

The 7 star children (who's power put together can **** the universe if they want)
Mario
Luigi
Peach-Seems to use them quite more than the other characters
Bowser-Doesn't know about his full powers
DK-or at least his dad Cranky Kong was one
Yoshi-random one
Wario

This group of course (I have to be nice and list them as well you know)
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf-Is a powerful wizard as well...so what
Tink

The final product of a race of beings who did god things like making life (The Chozo if you don't get it)...hell they seemed to have psychic powers in a way as well
Samus

Leading general for a god
Pit (BTW...his god has no issue with changing his age if you get my point ^_^)

Some special sword/star weapon...used to fight god beings
Kirby
MK

Killed someone who became a god...or at least they did together...
Fox
Falco

Beat gods who wanted to use him to create a monster/is seen as a certain part of yin-yang (guess which one)
C. Falcon

Captured gods (yeah that's right)
Pokemon Trainer

God power level
Mewtwo

Packing god powered stuff with him
Marth (god...his name is a corruption of "Mars" in case you people don't get that...as in the god of war)

Packing god protection with him
Ike

Packing god powers inside of them that were sealed away until those that could use it come along...can **** the universe with it
Ness
Lucas

If Brawl is to be believed...is capable of making an entire army of stuff
G&W

Is a clone of a super human who pretty much was a one man army
Snake

Fights gods using god power somehow
Sonic

So...how is Ganondorf special again?

Even Link would lose actually. Link almost always has outside help, and considerable plot mechanics to help him win against Ganondorf.

Considerable plot mechanics are the only reason why Link usually needs help anyway…there are plenty of times where Link has beat Ganondorf w/o outside help people…

LoZ
LttP
OoA/OoS
4 Swords IIRC (as in I’m not sure)

Except the energy, which is the most important part. If the real emerald already has a vast amount of energy in it, why would Sonic have to use any?

As I was saying, we disproved Sonic's 999 ring limit, and now we're limiting him more. Why?

Rings are just a game mech.

God...they are money in at least 3 of the sonic games as well...ever play that Sonic RPG for the DS? Rings don't fuel Super Sonic in that game...

There is canon reason for Sonic being able to go super Sonic that is explained w/o the use of rings...

He needs a ton of energy to even start using Super Sonic…that energy is safe to say…from the chaos emeralds…
He needs "concentration" to hold Super Sonic’s “energy”...as in “MP” if you need a Final Fantasy example…

 

[missingnomaster]

Oops, forgot that Fox has the Landmaster. Definitely seems like a better option than Arwing this matchup.

Thunder setup wouldn't be as useful against a Landmaster.

 

[PowerBomb]

Rain Dance/Hail is in effect for what, five turns? How long is a turn? Ugh, turn-based stuff is annoying

 

[warpd]

Is the blade that Sonic wields in Sonic and the Black Knight a holy blade?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well... That doesn't mather really much, Mewtwo can use Blizzard and Thunder 5 times without chance of failure when it rains or hails.

Sure, Fox can probably shoot a lot of stuff in the meanwhile as well, but Mewtwo likely is able to take more hits from Fox than the other way around. Recover and Calm Mind only help him with tanking, and even assist him with attacking.

_clinton, I know this isn't canon, but in most Mario sport games... DK has shown to be either just as strong as Wario (and Bowser for the record) or slightly stronger even (Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Wintergames for example, my little brother bought it).

Not to mention Brawl. Wario might be a better character, but DK's still stronger and heavier.

I'm thinking they would be about equally as strong canoncally as well. They're tossing around giant creatures like they weight nothing. Wario I think might be one of the most underrated characters in this thread, if not the most underrated. Still, when fighting I believe DK still has the advantage.

And yeah when you think about it... Jungle Climber's ending is pretty creepy. Seems like the banana people from that game are like canibals or something.

 

[JOE!]

mewtwo wins via telekinetically crushing the arwing. Next MU please.


also, why is Ganon allowed still? he's worse than Ike in regards to the whole "cant hurt me lulz" because NOBODY can attempt crap against him, wheras you can pull shenannigans on Ike.

In other words, its not even worth discussing his matches anymore seeing as at best someone can just not be killed by him and Tie (possibly Ike/Samus)

actually, depending on how the lightsuit/lightbeam works, Samus could take a crack at him, but whatever

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why is he allowed? He's a smash character.

At least he gets some glory here, without the limitations he has in brawl.

 

[missingnomaster]

mewtwo wins via telekinetically crushing the arwing. Next MU please.
~~~
also, why is Ganon allowed still? he's worse than Ike in regards to the whole "cant hurt me lulz" because NOBODY can attempt crap against him, wheras you can pull shenannigans on Ike.

Telekinetic crushing happens in no pokemon game and you probably know that.

Ganon is allowed because he's a character in Smash. No exceptions.

 

[the king of murder]

Can Mewtwo learn Hypnosis? Because then he can teleport himself to Fox and attack him with Hypnosis. Fox will fell asleep and he can finish him off.

 

[missingnomaster]

Teleport can only be learned by 1st, maybe 2nd gen Mewtwo.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Mewtwo has still shown to learn teleport, though.

 

[missingnomaster]

In Smash, yes. Due to series retcon, Mewtwo can't have 3rd or 4th gen stuff if he has Teleport because Teleport was not a TM in 3rd or 4th gen.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Teleport and Hypnosis are both available? Hypnosis has terrible accuracy though... 55% or something?

 

[BSP]

Are we even considering characters' defenses when they go against Ganon? Is standing your ground still a loss? I can see how retreating or stalling would, but what about standing your ground? If the opponent can't beat you, they shouldn't get a win.

What exactly can Ganon do? Can someone make a list or something? What exactly can and can't hurt him?

We are still limiting Sonic btw. His only ring limit was disproven, and he doesn't have one now. Why are we limiting him?


@Clinton

If rings are a game mech (SS's ring count, which i think it's a mech too), SS is infinite. You're right about him being able to transform without the need of rings. If the emeralds hold a limitless energy, he'd be able to stay SS forever.

@current matchup

What can mewtwo do about a landmaster? And if he defeats that, he has to worry about fox running around with barriers, sniper rifles, and machine guns, etc.

 

[the king of murder]

In Smash, yes. Due to series retcon, Mewtwo can't have 3rd or 4th gen stuff if he has Teleport because Teleport was not a TM in 3rd or 4th gen.

He is allowed to have all of his abilitys in the games he appeared.
But that doesn´t matter anymore. I´ve just discovered that he can´t learn Hypnosis.