Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[_clinton]

Unless Samus is willing to, she won't lose her armor. Remember? In MP3, Samus was out cold for who knows how long, yet her armor was always on. In M:F, Samus was out cold due to the X virus infecting her, yet the armor would not come off, so they had to remove it SURGICALLY. That's not even tugging and pulling, they've got to break through it and operate on her actual body to remove those pieces.

I like how people don’t seem to get my point about this…which is…Samus’ suit can be forced off…I’m aware that it isn’t “easy” I don’t really care though…it’s not like Mario is lacking in the strength department

Stuff about Kirby

Kewkky…are you aware of what Kirby does with his foes/foes weapons/powers?
He makes a copy of them…in case you don’t get that…
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/copy
Where in those definitions does it say that Kirby improves upon the original? As in…how come these stone foes Kirby copies aren’t invincible/unopened to damage? I mean…last I checked…you can harm the stone foes that are trying to drop on you?

Because we don't feel like it. I personally don't agree with it, but don't see it as causing many problems yet.

Except for the fact that the quote I posted pretty much states proof that the power is Lucas/Claus'...but whatever...

I'm confident she could have dealt with the Ings without losing equipment.

How...she couldn't even enter that "dark world" and explore it naturally w/o help from a race of people who were on the same level as the Chozo...

Items are part of the game, and can be taken to the battlefield by characters without problems. They are allowed /discussion

Except...items/badges are clearly different between the games...unlike the abilities which have clear definitions that belong to the characters...

So...where is the proof that we know what they are really like in this debate?

Because unlike you, we don't take real life over canon. Metal Kirby is specifically stated to be unable to be hurt.

Except the foes that use those powers clearly aren't unable to be hurt...how about that?

Plus, he can't make his clones do something, then he himself do something else whenever he desires. The game makes Mario attack with them at the same time, so as soon as Mario uses the Copy flower/shroom/whatever it is, he has to attack as well... Which will be very bad for him if he does.

Which is funny...because that is how the fire flowers work in that game to...Mario has to attack right away...

I think this mental connection with the Power Suit is cyberpathic. For example, in Metroid Prime, when Samus switched from one beam to another, she simply changed the way her hand was. I could be wrong, of course.

I for one love the way Metroid Prime shows off the suit with little things like that ^_^

Also, if Samus is using considerable concentration to keep the Power Suit on, wouldn't that at least tell us that Samus may be able to put up with telepathy? Psychics and magic arts are not foreign in the Metroid series.

Samus is using considerable concentration to keep the power suit on...she isn't dealing with an attack on her mental state...the way she keeps the suit on is the same way we think...

Samus did defeat Gorea, after all.

With help from an entire race of people on Chozo level who made themselves into energy...

If you disagree with the Bag of Spilling trope, you'd have to convince everyone that this is not what occurs in each Metroid game. Again, Metroid 2: Return of Samus has Samus leaving planet SR388, and she has all her upgrades. She heads to Ceres Station after taking the Metroid larva, and in the cut-scene, she's wearing her Power Suit instead of her Varia Suit. This is an irrefutable example.

I’m talking about clear examples that are in Samus’ canon that happen late game that show her having lost her suit…
But whatever…I guess I don’t have perfect examples for all of Metroid’s plot holes…

I never thought of it that way. That's quite interesting.

Thank you…

Samus loses her Missiles. Why is there no Missile Guardian like there are other guardians? I don't buy it.

Maybe there are was no missile guardian because unlike all of the other skills Samus lost…Missiles have ammo…

A: The starting suit of Samus cannot awaken these abilities. Once the Power Suit of legend is obtained you learn and use these abilities.

So…a “new” suit then like I said huh?

The Phazon Suit isn't really a suit in and of itself like the Varia and Gravity Suit. The latter are upgrades. The former is simply pure Phazon overloading and corrupting the Power Suit. The Phazon was simply assimilated, which gave Metroid Prime's Essence a shell that represented Samus Aran. Of course, Dark Samus did possess Samus' DNA. Besides, the Power Suit was still on.

I still don’t see how that works compared to what Samus’ suit is like in the 1st place…I mean…it seems able to assimilate almost any technological upgrade into its system, regardless of where it comes from…and the foe that Samus fought did use phazon weaponry…

So…I guess the way she did get the suit was a bit off than how she usually picks up upgrades…but it doesn’t seem to be completely off compared to how her suit works…

 

[missingnomaster]

Kewkky…are you aware of what Kirby does with his foes/foes weapons/powers?
He makes a copy of them…in case you don’t get that…
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/copy
Where in those definitions does it say that Kirby improves upon the original? As in…how come these stone foes Kirby copies aren’t invincible/unopened to damage? I mean…last I checked…you can harm the stone foes that are trying to drop on you?


~~~

How...she couldn't even enter that "dark world" and explore it naturally w/o help from a race of people who were on the same level as the Chozo...

~~~

Except the foes that use those powers clearly aren't unable to be hurt...how about that?

~~~

Congratulations, you just declared all of Kirby's abilities invalid. I'd like to see where the Mirror enemy uses the attack that Kirby uses to split in two, or how Kirby has additional Beam attacks that Waddle Doo doesn't... Kirby clearly improves upon the foes' powers. Anyone who has played even one Kirby game should know that.

~~~
She could explore it, she would just take a large amount of damage doing so. If she hadn't lost equipment from game switching, she could have easily lasted long enough to defeat the Ing around her, or at least hold them off long enough to escape. She would have still had Power Bombs from Metroid Prime, which would have made it pretty easy.

~~~
Another example. You're taking the real life definition of the word "copy" to declare Kirby's abilities invalid. It's already been shown how Kirby improves upon the foes' powers. Metal and Stone are the same thing.

 

[Kewkky]

Ugh, _clinton, you know nothing of what "true to their games" is supposed to mean. Geez.

 

[PowerBomb]

What, Samus being unable to explore Dark Aether right from the start? The game (and Lumineth) state that the air of Dark Aether is so toxic and corrosive that it destroys nearly everything not native to its environment.

 

[Kewkky]

What, Samus being unable to explore Dark Aether right from the start? The game (and Lumineth) state that the air of Dark Aether is so toxic and corrosive that it destroys nearly everything not native to its environment.

Well, Samus DID explore Dark Aether afterwards with no Dark suit. She got it from that ugly easy boss in the first place, so she had to traverse the areas with the help of crystals (but could also walk around outside of the crystals' range, and with all 20 energy tanks she would've survived for a large amount of time)).

And when I meant "_clinton, you have no idea what 'true to their games' means", I meant the only commentary that he replied that I said to him directly: the Kirby copy abilities.

 

[_clinton]

Congratulations, you just declared all of Kirby's abilities invalid. I'd like to see where the Mirror enemy uses the attack that Kirby uses to split in two, or how Kirby has additional Beam attacks that Waddle Doo doesn't... Kirby clearly improves upon the foes' powers. Anyone who has played even one Kirby game should know that.

Simirror the foe does makes copies of itself...how is that different from Kirby making copies? (only they are more or less used in game play differently than how the foe uses them)
Simirror even uses that glass shard projectile stuff Kirby uses...and teleports even...how is that weaker than Kirby? If anything it does a better job with the move...

Kirby's additional beam attacks that he has that Waddle Doo doesn't only shows up in Kirby Super Star...for the other games all Kirby has is beam whip just like his foe...hell...another foe that uses beam in KSS usually gives Kirby a different move (Laser)...so explain to me why Kirby can't use that "beam tech" as well in KSS?

Oh...and plenty of the foes have attacks that they use that Kirby can't use...Flaming Leo flings a projectile fireball for example...

She could explore it, she would just take a large amount of damage doing so. If she hadn't lost equipment from game switching, she could have easily lasted long enough to defeat the Ing around her, or at least hold them off long enough to escape. She would have still had Power Bombs from Metroid Prime, which would have made it pretty easy.

She lost a ton of equipment in the 1st place just by stepping into the area not prepared...plus the air was ****ed up...I don't see her exploring it...

Another example. You're taking the real life definition of the word "copy" to declare Kirby's abilities invalid. It's already been shown how Kirby improves upon the foes' powers. Metal and Stone are the same thing.

Unless you are talking about Kirby 64 I disagree with you (and I still sort of disagree with Kirby 64 as those being better...but whatever)

So I like how Kirby so called improved on the abilities of his foes, when most of his foes can do the same things he can...hell it shouldn't even count because Kirby can fight with "copies" of his foes...but whatever...here is a long list:
1. Animal-Kirby can’t even use the ability of Gao Gao fully until he unlocks a “scroll” item…
2. Backdrop/Suplex-Again…another ability where I don’t see Kirby doing anything extra with it…
3. Ball-Another ability just like the stuff you copy form…
4. Balloon-It only appears in Kirby’s Canvas Curse…
5. Beam/Laser-Already talked about...
6. Bomb-Please tell me how Kirby improved on this again…
7. Bubble-Meh…both the foe and mini boss don’t really use it any different than what Kirby does (to create bubbles…but I guess Kirby does have some more use for them)
8. Burning/Fire-Kirby’s fire tackle sometimes gets fused with the flame thrower he has for some of the games…I still don’t see how he uses them differently…Burning Leo if anything beats Kirby because he can at least fling a fireball…
9. Clean/Broom-Again…just a copy…
10. Cook-Would you really want Kirby to jump into a pot? Still…it’s not like the chef foe that uses it doesn’t “cook” Kirby/whatever if he grabs you with his long reach…
11. Cupid-Just a copy
12. *Cutter-90% of the games only have cutter boomerang…it’s only in Kirby Super Star where he gets more moves…I don't see how using the throwing blade as a melee weapon as being better sometimes...but whatever...I guess he does have that final cutter part...
13. Crash-Well…Kirby’s blast certainly is bigger…but to be fair I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to deal with an attack you couldn’t avoid that does insane amounts of damage…but that is just me…
14. Fighter-Most of the stuff I’ve seen his foes use as well…
15. Freeze/Ice-Kirby making a snowstorm/ice breath is nothing new…
16. Ghost-Again…it’s just a copy pretty much
17. Hammer-Again…it’s just Kirby smacking someone with a hammer…Bonkers if anything has his own specials
18. Hi-Jump-If anything it is weaker…because the foe Kirby copies from can fly freely…
19. Jet-I don’t see how Capsule J is any weaker with Jet…
20. Light-How is Cool Spook different again?
21. Magic-It’s based off a foe that does random things to you…how is that different? (I guess it was changed in K:SS…but I don’t know about that)
22. Mike-No offense…but if the foe used it the same way Kirby did…I wouldn’t like KSS as much…still…the foes attacks with sound in case you don’t get that…one of them in an area affect as well I might add…
23. Mini-Well…Kirby becomes the size of his foot or so…sort of like that foe…
24. Mirror-Already talked about...
25. Missile-How is Kirby different from the foe that uses this?
26. Needle-Another one where I don’t see how it is more than just a copy
27. *Ninja-Biospark is one evil SOB foe…I’ve seen it body slam, cut 9001 times, blend into the background, cling to walls, throw stuff…Kirby gets one thing over it though in Kirby:Squeak Squad...and I still don't see how that is better...god...it's still seen as "ninja" but whatever
28. Paint-Meh…several things in the Kirby series bring things to life with their paint…so besides what is in KSS…how is it different again when it is a “regular skill" and not just an "extra?”
29. *Parasol-He uses a parasol to fight…the ways he does it are different than the foes he fights…
30. Plasma-I’ve seen the foe Plasma Wisp use each of the levels for this skill…
Sleep-Copy…
31. *Smash-A reference to the skills Kirby uses in SSB…whatever…you get it from Master Hand…I’ll count it though I guess
32. Spark-How is it different again?
33. Stone-Well other than the fact that the foe starts off as a brick and Kirby has to turn it on…I don’t see how they are different in use…they both try to fall on things…
34. *Sword-I’ve seen foes use the sword beam...but whatever…
35. Throw-A different type of Suplex…it’s not like the foes are different still…well…I guess Kirby sucks his foes to him compared to just them grabbing…
36. Tornado-How is this different?
37. UFO-It isn’t different at all…
38. Wheel-How is it different again?
39. Wing-I’ve seen Birdon foes use feather gun, and those charge moves…even something that looks like Shuttle Loop…it’s a copy IMO…
40. *Yoyo-I guess Kirby does seem to beat the normal foe with this…

5 out of 40 where Kirby clearly is using them more advanced in some way (some of them are just me giving Kirby the point just for the hell of it...hell I still don't see how some of them are so called better)…I’d hardly call that making improvements on the moves…

Ugh, _clinton, you know nothing of what "true to their games" is supposed to mean. Geez.

I like how you think interviews by the creators about the games themselves aren't being true to their games...but will take instruction booklets still as fact...even though instruction booklets have by far more errors on average than even the games themselves...

 

[IsmaR]

I like how you think interviews by the creators about the games themselves aren't being true to their games...but will take instruction booklets still as fact...even though instruction booklets have by far more errors on average than even the games themselves...

So you have more authority to call things like that? You have more authority to say who can do what and who can't do what? You either know hardly anything about half the stuff you argue or are too biased to properly argue for it.

She lost a ton of equipment in the 1st place just by stepping into the area not prepared...plus the air was ****ed up...I don't see her exploring it...

She was kind of busy thinking "OMGWTFDARKSAMUS" and that she was surrounded in her head, and it was the game mechanic Dryn mentioned. Give the player control in that situation(or not make Samus stand there with her mouth open) and it would've been different, not to mention she would've been broken for the first half(or even the whole) of the game with all her powers intact.

Unless you are talking about Kirby 64 I disagree with you (and I still sort of disagree with Kirby 64 as those being better...but whatever)

So being able to combine powers and use better/stronger versions(Stone Kirby beats out any stone enemy, Bomb Kirby's Bombs beat out any other bomb enemies' bombs, etc.) isn't better?

10. Cook-Would you really want Kirby to jump into a pot? Still…it’s not like the chef foe that uses it doesn’t “cook” Kirby/whatever if he grabs you with his long reach…

He doesn't grab everyone on the screen at once.

17. Hammer-Again…it’s just Kirby smacking someone with a hammer…Bonkers if anything has his own specials

Being able to throw the hammer doesn't count?

Top that off with you discounting most KSSU stuff(Helper to the Hero even shows that half of the helpers can even do Kirby's abilities). I really don't get why you'd reply "I guess..." or "Meh..." on any of them due to one game.

Maybe there are was no missile guardian because unlike all of the other skills Samus lost…Missiles have ammo…

Power Bomb Guardian.

 

[missingnomaster]

Simirror the foe does makes copies of itself...how is that different from Kirby making copies? (only they are more or less used in game play differently than how the foe uses them)
Simirror even uses that glass shard projectile stuff Kirby uses...and teleports even...how is that weaker than Kirby? If anything it does a better job with the move...

Kirby's additional beam attacks that he has that Waddle Doo doesn't only shows up in Kirby Super Star...for the other games all Kirby has is beam whip just like his foe...hell...another foe that uses beam in KSS usually gives Kirby a different move (Laser)...so explain to me why Kirby can't use that "beam tech" as well in KSS?

Oh...and plenty of the foes have attacks that they use that Kirby can't use...Flaming Leo flings a projectile fireball for example...

~~~

She lost a ton of equipment in the 1st place just by stepping into the area not prepared...plus the air was ****ed up...I don't see her exploring it...

Congratulations, you just disproved your own argument. You were saying Kirby wasn't improving upon the foes' abilities because the real life definition didn't say so, but now you're saying that some foes use abilities better than Kirby... A copy means the same thing, not better or worse. Not gonna deal with your list because it simply demonstrates either a lot of bias or a large lack of knowledge for the Kirby series.
~~~
I didn't say she would explore it, just be there long enough to defeat the Ing that were trying to take her stuff in the first place.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I like how people don’t seem to get my point about this…which is…Samus’ suit can be forced off…I’m aware that it isn’t “easy” I don’t really care though…it’s not like Mario is lacking in the strength department

They had to surgically remove the suit while she was unconscious.
If mario is capable of knocking her out and then surgically slicing into her limbs(possibly cutting therm off since Samus did say her appearance was DRASTICALLY altered meaning she might have regenerative abilities now. if so, sexy!) then feel free to do so.

I doubt he has the expertise and ability to do so.

Samus is using considerable concentration to keep the power suit on...she isn't dealing with an attack on her mental state...the way she keeps the suit on is the same way we think...

I actually doubt it. Primarily since at no point is it really requiring actual concentration.
maybe in order to switch her weapons or to make it come off her body, otherwise, she doesn't at all seemt o need to concentrate beyond regular behavior.
It isn't as if she is constantly concentrating on maintaning the suit.
When she wants something, she gets it.

With help from an entire race of people on Chozo level who made themselves into energy...

I played that game like a pro. The alimbic people left the devices there in order to remove the Alimbic essence from the orb (which contained a number of their people). The omega cannonw as then used to finish it off.

The alimbic peolpe actually had no direct means of aiding Samus.

So…a “new” suit then like I said huh?

Correct, the power suit she has currently was the second suit she received according to Zero mission.

She broke the first one when she was attacked while leaving SR388.
Then you find the regular powersuit and go into awesome sauce mode. (no seriously, when you get it, you feel like you're friggin Jesus. Its amazing! I went to town on the pirates for a good hour. I cant remember how the hell to get back to the other areas though. Missing some items I am))

 

[Crystanium]

I like how people don’t seem to get my point about this…which is…Samus’ suit can be forced off…I’m aware that it isn’t “easy” I don’t really care though…it’s not like Mario is lacking in the strength department

If Mario wants to remove Samus' Power Suit, he will have to either surgically remove it, or he will have to get rid of all of Samus' Energy Tanks.

With help from an entire race of people on Chozo level who made themselves into energy...

Did the Alimbic actually help Samus?

I’m talking about clear examples that are in Samus’ canon that happen late game that show her having lost her suit…
But whatever…I guess I don’t have perfect examples for all of Metroid’s plot holes…

Let's go through each game.

• Metroid: Samus leaves with the Varia Suit and other equipment.
• Metroid: Zero Mission: Samus leaves with the Gravity Suit and other equipment.
• Metroid Prime: Samus no longer has the previous equipment. She doesn't even have the Gravity Suit at the beginning. Why?
• Metroid Prime 2: Echoes: Samus leaves with the Varia Suit on. It doesn't tell us what happened to her other items.
• Metroid Prime 3: Corruption: Samus had the PED Suit, but she ends up with the Varia Suit.
• Metroid 2: Return of Samus: Samus starts with the Varia Suit, 30 Missiles (where did the 250 go?), Morph Ball, but doesn't have everything else. At least here the Varia Suit is consistent.
• Super Metroid: Everything Samus has in Metroid 2: Return oF Samus, she should have in Super Metroid. Instead, she starts with nothing but a Power Beam and Power Suit.
• Metroid Fusion: This finally tells us how Samus lost her equipment, but where did her Gravity Suit go?

Maybe there are was no missile guardian because unlike all of the other skills Samus lost…Missiles have ammo…

As IsmaR pointed out, there was the Power Bomb Guardian. Strangely, though, Samus didn't have the Power Bomb. Still, this does disprove the idea that because an item is limited, that it must mean that it could not be acquired for there to be a Missile Guardian.

So…a “new” suit then like I said huh?

I suppose. I'm not too sure, though. I was trying to find something else Yoshio Sakamoto said, but I was unable to. The first Power Suit Samus started with was created by Mother Brain. But there was this awakening that came with the Power Suit of legend, which then allowed Samus to use her newfound abilities.

I still don’t see how that works compared to what Samus’ suit is like in the 1st place…I mean…it seems able to assimilate almost any technological upgrade into its system, regardless of where it comes from…and the foe that Samus fought did use phazon weaponry…

Samus' Power Suit can acquire technology or organic things. The organic things I am talking about are Phazon and Metroid DNA. When the Metroid vaccine was given to Samus, her Power Suit's form was altered to that bluish color. It wasn't given to Samus from the Federation like the PED Suit.

 

[PowerBomb]

Samus keeps everything except for the Light Suit (and Dark Suit. The hell? Lumineth don't even own the Dark Suit, do they?). You can see Samus taking the Annihilator/Dark/Light Beams with her if you switch to it before Dark Samus gets boom'd.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus keeps everything except for the Light Suit (and Dark Suit. The hell? Lumineth don't even own the Dark Suit, do they?). You can see Samus taking the Annihilator/Dark/Light Beams with her if you switch to it before Dark Samus gets boom'd.

The Dark Suit was created by the Luminoth, just like the Dark Beam. It gives Samus the appearance of a Luminoth.

 

[PowerBomb]

The Dark Suit was created by the Luminoth, just like the Dark Beam. It gives Samus the appearance of a Luminoth.

Oh, didn't know that. But then why would they let her take the Dark/Light Beams with her?

 

[Samochan]

Well she apparently gives the light & dark suit back, but you get to see her still holding the beam you used on the dark samus match at the end of echoes when you leave the temple, never indicating she gives them back. And besides, why would there be only one piece of this technology they invented? The beams are unique sure, but only unique in design, not in quantity if the Luminoth even used them against the Ing. Same holds true to chozo technology.

 

[Crystanium]

Well she apparently gives the light & dark suit back, but you get to see her still holding the beam you used on the dark samus match at the end of echoes when you leave the temple, never indicating she gives them back. And besides, why would there be only one piece of this technology they invented? The beams are unique sure, but only unique in design, not in quantity if the Luminoth even used them against the Ing. Same holds true to chozo technology.

Well, I am not sure if the Dark Beam and Light Beam were given back or whatever. I know that the last beam weapon you have shows up when Samus is walking away, but the same thing happens in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. When Samus gives a thumbs up, her Arm Cannon shows her with the Phazon Beam. I don't think anyone really pays attention to that.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, I am not sure if the Dark Beam and Light Beam were given back or whatever. I know that the last beam weapon you have shows up when Samus is walking away, but the same thing happens in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. When Samus gives a thumbs up, her Arm Cannon shows her with the Phazon Beam. I don't think anyone really pays attention to that.

I have to play the game again to see that. WAIT GIMME A YOUTUBE LINK BISH!

 

[_clinton]

So you have more authority to call things like that? You have more authority to say who can do what and who can't do what? You either know hardly anything about half the stuff you argue or are too biased to properly argue for it.

I like how you accuse me of being biased...have you looked at how some of the "matches" have been won in this thread...
For example...if you look at the original discussion between Samus vs. Lucas or Wario vs. Pikachu...I just love how no one knew **** about Lucas or Wario...

Oh...and do you really disagree with me on the actual issue of interviews about the games by the people who made the games shouldn't count? Just wondering...

She was kind of busy thinking "OMGWTFDARKSAMUS" and that she was surrounded in her head, and it was the game mechanic Dryn mentioned. Give the player control in that situation(or not make Samus stand there with her mouth open) and it would've been different, not to mention she would've been broken for the first half(or even the whole) of the game with all her powers intact.

That isn’t a game mech. people…
A game mech. is something like missile ammo or power bomb ammo…or a health bar

That event that happened was a part of the story…you could argue that it was a story mech. but even then I still don’t agree with you fully…because by that point…Samus still hasn’t meant the people that are fighting the beings…how would she know about the crystals?

So being able to combine powers and use better/stronger versions(Stone Kirby beats out any stone enemy, Bomb Kirby's Bombs beat out any other bomb enemies' bombs, etc.) isn't better?

Combining powers still isn’t making them fully 100% better when they are 100% identical to each other…your example of stone Kirby beats out any stone enemy is funny…it just brings up my other argument again…if it really was invincible…it would make Kirby coping the skill/beating it sort of hard…don’t you think?

Being able to throw the hammer doesn't count?
Top that off with you discounting most KSSU stuff(Helper to the Hero even shows that half of the helpers can even do Kirby's abilities). I really don't get why you'd reply "I guess..." or "Meh..." on any of them due to one game.

I like how you think Kirby throwing the hammer is something special…tell me…what happens when you throw that hammer? Don’t you lose it?
The people who made the game clearly didn’t want to have Bonkers “hammerless” for whatever reason…because I don’t see how that hammer is “glued” to him in any way…do you? Logically I don’t see how he couldn’t throw it if he wanted to…

Congratulations, you just disproved your own argument. You were saying Kirby wasn't improving upon the foes' abilities because the real life definition didn't say so, but now you're saying that some foes use abilities better than Kirby... A copy means the same thing, not better or worse. Not gonna deal with your list because it simply demonstrates either a lot of bias or a large lack of knowledge for the Kirby series.

I like how you avoid the fact that like 35/40 of those powers I brought up were clear cut copies of the foes' power...

Those 5 things I brought up where clearly "special" exceptions...Smash Kirby for example...that really shouldn't count...along with biospark...because ninja is pretty much a full copy...

If you look at the statical significance with these things...you should see a less than 10% difference in the skills...(because the real result was 36/39...how about that?)

There being a less than 10% difference is proof that the copy ability is just a "copy"

Oh and things like Burning Leo throwing a different type of fireball that kirby can't isn't a big deal...because in case you aren't paying attention...Kirby does "throw" fireballs with the skill...they just don't travel the entire screen...

Also...I don't even know why I haven't brought up the helpers pretty much just being the foe Kirby gets their power from...but oh well...

They had to surgically remove the suit while she was unconscious.
If mario is capable of knocking her out and then surgically slicing into her limbs(possibly cutting therm off since Samus did say her appearance was DRASTICALLY altered meaning she might have regenerative abilities now. if so, sexy!) then feel free to do so.

Samus' appearance being drastically altered is in reference to the suit she got...I hardly count that as a regenerative ability...

Oh and again...you don't seem to get my main point about all of this...they couldn't just remove the suit for fear of her being killed...so that is the reason they cut into her...to try and avoid her being killed...what is stopping Mario from ripping it off when I assume that these fights...are to the death or something like that?

I doubt he has the expertise and ability to do so.

So...I hear Mario is a doctor or something like that in his spare time (joking around people)

I actually doubt it. Primarily since at no point is it really requiring actual concentration.
maybe in order to switch her weapons or to make it come off her body, otherwise, she doesn't at all seemt o need to concentrate beyond regular behavior.
It isn't as if she is constantly concentrating on maintaning the suit.
When she wants something, she gets it.

I disagree with the maintaining the suit mark when you say that to switch weapons she maybe has to do it…

The alimbic peolpe actually had no direct means of aiding Samus.

Except for the prevention of the final boss using the weapon it seems…but that is how I’m looking at it…

Then you find the regular powersuit and go into awesome sauce mode. (no seriously, when you get it, you feel like you're friggin Jesus. Its amazing! I went to town on the pirates for a good hour. I cant remember how the hell to get back to the other areas though. Missing some items I am))

I’m aware of what the suit is like when you get it…you go from “running around fearing for your life” to walking DEATH to your foes…
And I would recommend watching a speed run of that game if you need help…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB_Y1XZYLnE&feature=PlayList&p=5B33616129940225&index=51

Bloody guy that did this makes Mother Brain look easier than she really is =,(
Or at least I had some issues with that hard mode *****…

If Mario wants to remove Samus' Power Suit, he will have to either surgically remove it, or he will have to get rid of all of Samus' Energy Tanks.

He would only have to surgically remove it if he feared for her well being actually...I mean...have you read the quote for that game...the only reason they go about the way they did with the suit was because they didn't want to kill her/cripple her...

Did the Alimbic actually help Samus?

IMO...their way of helping Samus was to prevent the foe of that game from getting the weapon...but that is just me...

Let's go through each game.

I think you overlook some things with these games...like time in between the games...the time frame between Return of Samus and Super Metroid for example is only an "emergency order" to return to the station...
God...maybe she just didn't have time to "power up" her suit...

Plus things like time in between Metroid: Zero Mission and Prime 1 clearly have different things happening...maybe Samus is just incapable of "maintaining" her suit 100% all the time...because the bloody thing is linked to her mental strength...which is why Samus has to pick up the gravity suit 3 times in the game series (It's not because the makers of the series are just lazy ****s who keep recycling the same story again and again you know...oh no...it isn't like that at all ^_^)

Or maybe you are thinking too much about this...because by the events of Prime 3 and Super Metroid...Ridley is more robot than cute birdie that spits fire IMO...It's either A. think that the makers for the games just made an error in between MP3 and SM...or they just don't really give a **** about how powerful Samus is in between the games...

As IsmaR pointed out, there was the Power Bomb Guardian. Strangely, though, Samus didn't have the Power Bomb. Still, this does disprove the idea that because an item is limited, that it must mean that it could not be acquired for there to be a Missile Guardian.

Or maybe making a "missile guardian" for the series wouldn't make sense when each game seems to have 250 missile packs lying around...

God...it's not like power bombs are seen as better by far...hell...maybe that is what happened to the missile guardian...

Samus' Power Suit can acquire technology or organic things. The organic things I am talking about are Phazon and Metroid DNA.

This is still funny… we allow Samus Phazon equipment but won’t allow Lucas’ full power from the dragon/power of the earth…even though that slowly became a part of him as it woke up more…unlike Phazon…but whatever…

 

[Crystanium]

I really don't feel like continuing with this nonsense. It's not leading us anywhere.

 

[Kewkky]

Then just ignore _clinton and let's continue with the Mario vs Samus debate.


I still think Samus wins. : |

 

[IsmaR]

I like how you accuse me of being biased...have you looked at how some of the "matches" have been won in this thread...
For example...if you look at the original discussion between Samus vs. Lucas or Wario vs. Pikachu...I just love how no one knew **** about Lucas or Wario...

It's the Internet. Bias happens. It's not an excuse to use it yourself.

Oh...and do you really disagree with me on the actual issue of interviews about the games by the people who made the games shouldn't count? Just wondering...

..What?

I like how you think Kirby throwing the hammer is something special…tell me…what happens when you throw that hammer? Don’t you lose it?

You can immediately get another one in Milky Way Wishes, and the hammer throw itself does a crapload of damage.

The people who made the game clearly didn’t want to have Bonkers “hammerless” for whatever reason…because I don’t see how that hammer is “glued” to him in any way…do you? Logically I don’t see how he couldn’t throw it if he wanted to…

Just like the Hammer Brothers, right? The hammer isn't glued to them in any way.

I like how you avoid the fact that like 35/40 of those powers I brought up were clear cut copies of the foes' power...

So these "copies" are supposed to be weaker than the original, right? How are they clear-cut?

Those 5 things I brought up where clearly "special" exceptions...Smash Kirby for example...that really shouldn't count...along with biospark...because ninja is pretty much a full copy...

Why should they not count exactly?

If you look at the statical significance with these things...you should see a less than 10% difference in the skills...(because the real result was 36/39...how about that?)

Statistical. And 10% difference does not always mean weaker.

There being a less than 10% difference is proof that the copy ability is just a "copy"

Take it up with the creators who didn't think of another word/definition for "copy."

Or maybe making a "missile guardian" for the series wouldn't make sense when each game seems to have 250 missile packs lying around...

So there has never been a boss to obtain the Missile Launcher? Hive Totem anyone?
And this argument is invalid. With that logic, there would have to be at least 8-10 Power Bomb Guardians. Power-ups =/= Upgrade. And either way, those could be considered game mechanics(not being able to find those power-ups until you find them in the story).

God...it's not like power bombs are seen as better by far...hell...maybe that is what happened to the missile guardian...

Missiles are one of the best weapons in the series and are better than Power Bombs. Even if this is sarcastic, it fails.

This is still funny… we allow Samus Phazon equipment but won’t allow Lucas’ full power from the dragon/power of the earth…even though that slowly became a part of him as it woke up more…unlike Phazon…but whatever…

Because she actually uses Phazon? Phazon became part of Samus' actual being. It could be argued the dragon did all the work, and never did Lucas' bidding.

@Dryn: Join the club.

And on 2nd thought, don't answer any of the questions I asked. I probably won't reply to them anyway.

 

[Samochan]

Uhm no clinton, they specifically state they couldn't remove her suit because the biological components were so integrated to her system, not because if they did so they'd kill her. Thus they had to surgically remove large portions out of her suit, altering her physical appearance dramatically (this refers to her suit though, she seems unchanged on the ending of fusion throughhout her life cycle *jpn). The x-parasites however were so embedded to her central nervous system at that point that they couldn't be removed safely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhatzH51d9c

Removing the suit itself however fails to kill her. But I don't see how Mario could do so, seeing as Samus is unwilling participant.

And Clinton, samus has actually used phazon, thrice in fact, while Lucas still fails to show us the awesome power of dragon. Black screen provides us with no evidence of whatever that's happening and we cannot draw any facts or conclusions from that, which are the basis of this thread. Assumptions lead us nowhere and have no basis. Not forgetting the game script works against Lucas using the Dragon power himself, stating it's just an ally that'll listen to his heart's wish and then grants it. PK love junk doesn't contradict these statements nor override them, those are more assumptions than facts anyway, cause needles =/= pk love when Lucas learned pk love without pulling needles anyway, so he could just as well have improved it on his own as the game progresses, pulling needles being checkpoints here.

 

[BSP]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we trying to prove whether or not mario could remove samus' suit mid battle? Even if he could, when would he get the chance?

 

[Samochan]

Well, Mario can't cause obv removing her suit requires more tha just raw strenght or even abilities.

 

[Kewkky]

If Mario tries to remove Samus' suit, it's no different than ripping off someone's skin/limbs... And Mario has never done that in any games. Why should he be able to remove limbs/parts of someone's body in this thread?

 

[Crystanium]

So, if in-game rounds everything to 1 HP when taking a hit, regardless of the defense being acquired with the Last Stand badge, should that take five hits to defeat Mario? I know we still have the Darkburst, which would send Mario into some "dark dimension."

 

[justaway12]

I'll be busy today, so I can't answer a lot, I've actually had this in tabs all day @_@ I don't take care of my laptop =/

Anyway, if this is max potential he has 99 lives, I remember REL38 also mentioning he had 99 life shrooms, it's not going to be easy hitting him anyway.

 

[DoonKoon]

What, Justaway? 99 Lives is not how it goes.. that's something to not make the game so hard. Read the Op.

 

[PowerBomb]

Life Shrooms are not lives. They revive you when you die. Not like 1-Ups.

Mario wouldn't be able to hit Samus very well either. Speed Booster invinci/Hypermode Invinci + distance.

EDIT: I think this might be a draw. What about Samus' gunship?

 

[DoonKoon]

Multiple lives shouldn't be accounted in this.

 

[justaway12]

Where does it say 99 lives aren't allowed? He still has 99 life shrooms anyway.

 

[Crystanium]

I'll be busy today, so I can't answer a lot, I've actually had this in tabs all day @_@ I don't take care of my laptop =/

Anyway, if this is max potential he has 99 lives, I remember REL38 also mentioning he had 99 life shrooms, it's not going to be easy hitting him anyway.

He could have 200 lives for all I care. One death is considered defeat. I didn't make this up, but...

Terms of Defeat Clause: Assume that K.O., retreat, and death followed by resurrection all qualify as defeat. Retreating to a different time period is still retreat.

However, I did make up my own after thinking about some rules that should have first been implemented into this thread. I call it...

Game Over
K.O., resurrection, retreating, and anything similar in nature is considered defeat.

Example 1: In The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, when Link loses all his health, he falls to his death. However, a fairy is instantly released thereafter, bringing Link back to life. This is considered resurrecting. This is considered defeat, because he already died.

Example 2: In Pokémon, when the trainer's Pokémon faint, he is sent to the Pokémon Center. Even though death did not occur, anything similar to this situation is considered defeat.

Explanation: Retreating does not mean moving to a safe place.

 

[REL38]

@Dryn
Where did you get that explaination of "Game Over".
Just curious.

Anyways, Lucky Day makes enemy hits miss 25% of the time.
Repel Flag increases it to 50%, me thinks?

Repel Gel renders Mario fully invincible and invisible.
He can use a StopWatch then.

 

[Crystanium]

@Dryn
Where did you get that explaination of "Game Over".
Just curious.

It was based off of the Terms of Defeat. I just wrote it in my own words. I wanted to come up with something clever, so I called it "Game Over," kind of like "Fierce Deity's Location Limitation," "Infinite Dimensional Cape," which was based off of the actual term, and "GameShark Hunting," where cheats or glitches or whatever of any kind are not allowed. They're all game related.

Anyways, Lucky Day makes enemy hits miss 25% of the time.

That's not a lot.

Repel Flag increases it to 50%, me thinks?

So, half the shots miss. That's fine. 10 shots, 5 make it.

Repel Gel renders Mario fully invincible and invisible.
He can use a StopWatch then.[/COLOR]

Invicibility, or intangibility, actually isn't a problem. Samus is invincible with the Speed Booster, and she could wait for the Repel Gel to wear off. Invisibility isn't a problem. Thermal Visor tracks heat signatures. Mario has body heat. The X-Ray Visor would detect skeletal structures, hidden objects. Dark Visor would allow Samus to see extradimensional objects. There was a creature in Metroid Prime that would phase out into another dimension, and Samus would be able to see it and kill it. I wonder if the same could happen here against Mario. Echo Visor lets Samus see sound, so even if Mario is invisible, Samus could track him by the sound he makes.

 

[Kewkky]

Samus has infinite invincibility and moves at supersonic speeds, as well as infinite ammo on most of her weapons. Mario has limited items, limited invincibility, he can't hide by going invisible, is in constant danger of being held in place by Entanglers and sent to another dimension with a Darkburst, and if he activates a stop watch, Samus has enough time to run one mile away from Mario (1 second) before the Stop Watch activates. It would take Mario the use of all his stopwatches to reach her, and even if he did, he couldn't do anything to her due to her being frozen in time while invincible.

Seems like a loss to me.

And if Mario has some badges that make Samus' shots miss from time to time, the entanglers aren't shot at Mario (although it's an option), but at the surroundings, where they then home in onto Mario and freeze around him, encasing him in a solid 'cocoon', where then Samus can shoot a Darkburst at him/the floor right next to him, and have him pulled into a dark dimension whose 'dark' atmosphere might have the same dangers as Dark Aether.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ No attacks can harm him while he's invisible, lol. And when the stop watch is effected, the enemy effected anamation looks like they've been attacked, meaning Samus current moves will be stopped. Are we using TTYD Paper Mario or the first Paper Mario when his HP and FP is limited to 50 and not 200? ☆

 

[DoonKoon]

Wow, Mario really poses such a threat.

 

[PowerBomb]

Dryn, doesn't Samus' X-Ray visor have the odd effect of making intangible/invisible objects able to be hit/touched? Same with Dark Visor...

 

[cutter]

They can still be interacted with IIRC.

For example, you can sequence break in Metroid Prime by jumping on invisible platforms that you need to see with the X-ray visor down in the Phazon Mines if you know where they're at.

 

[Crystanium]

Dryn, doesn't Samus' X-Ray visor have the odd effect of making intangible/invisible objects able to be hit/touched? Same with Dark Visor...

In Metroid Prime, when the Omega Pirate becomes invisible, and if you know where he's at and you use a Super Missile, it will not affect him. Invisibility is not the same as intangibility, nor incorporeality. Yet, strangely, the Omega Pirate cannot be harmed if you don't have the X-Ray Visor. You need the X-Ray Visor on to harm him. The Dark Visor works similarly. There is a creature that can phase out of the dimension Samus is in, and you can fire your Power Beam at it, but it will pass by and hit the wall. This is in Agon Wastes, by the way. But, when you equip the Dark Visor, you can see the same creature, and even harm it when it's not in the dimension Samus is in. I am not too worried about Repel Gel, since it doesn't last very long.

 

[IsmaR]

There's also the Ing that carry Sky Temple keys with them. You can know where they are without the Dark Visor and you can even check where they are with the visor and then switch back to normal, but you cannot hit them without seeing it with the Dark Visor.

Assumign Dryn means something other than that <_<