Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[Adapt]

Now that I think about it, its clearly Zelda

Hear me out: You can't argue these 2 points (much anyway)
1. Ike and DDD are too **** obvious. Its never the obvious characters
2. They did Ganondorf and Link, Now they must comlpete the triforce trio with Zelda, the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom

Also, she kinda fits the hint, but not exactly. So it "should" be her. Whether it will be? who knows...

 

[Blad01]

Lucario's recovery was never intimidating and he has no troubles with faster characters or spam.[/SIZE]

Hum, i understood "intimidating" as "difficult to avoid"... It's a fast movement, and can curve itself, so it could appear as a great recovery. But it does 0 damages :/ You just have to hang the ledge.

And against faster characters, he can be easily combo'ed in the airs (except from below), due to his slow fall-movement.
And spam could be pretty annoying for him. He's slow at running speed, and his projectile is a little bit slow too. By example, Falco lasers can be very annoying for him. (Okay, he can crawl but... That's not as useful as with Snake for him, according to me).

But yeah, since i'm not a Lucario main, i'm maybe wrong ^^

 

[Oathblivion]

The hint fits VERY well to Lucario.

Well, the main point against Lucario is the "intimidating recovery." Let's face it, Lucario's recovery is deceptively bad rather than deceptively good. If you ask any random person off the street, they'll tell you that his recovery sucks. While that isn't necessarily true, I've never found anyone that would call Lucario scary.

Now that that's off my chest, my gut instinct says TL. "If you don't react fast enough" could mean a fairly quick character, and his dair kind of stings. Plus if the person plays a campy TL, then that's not very fun to play against. However, like others have said, the last hint is a bit subjective. I enjoy playing against every character in the game, but not necessarily every playstyle.

EDIT: Blarg, beaten. Anyway, if you understand "intimidating" as "difficult to avoid," then it could be Lucario. Didn't think of it that way, but Panda has already gotten us with connotation once... Heck, I'm not complaining if it is. ^_^;

 

[Mr. Escalator]

HERE
It's my turn to analyze who it might be.
The most logical two seem to be Ike and Dedede.

After a bit of a delay, we've finally begun discussing the new character of the week. This character has some difficulty with some of the faster characters, as well as characters with strong projectile spamming games.

Ike's bane has always been anyone with projectiles who can spam effectively. He has some trouble with quicker characters like G&W, MK, and Pikachu, but this isnt his main issue. His bigger issue seems to lie in his inability to deal with projectiles. After a quick glance, he has far more bad matchups with those who can pitch a tent and hit B, like Lucario, Olimar, Link, and Lucas, than characters who rely more on being up close and personal.

Dedede has more difficulty with the quicker cast members. People like Sonic, Squirtle, and Diddy (while also having bad matchups with MK/Ness/Pikachu) get up in his face and give him a hard time to swing his hammer. Though, Dedede also has less weaknesses in the projectile department, as his Side B waddle Dees and Doos act as a shield. He still has problem with the cast members with great projectiles though.

From this, it seems like Dedede.
Ike doesnt have many problems with fast characters, though he does have a lot with projectiles, and Dedede has problems with both fast characters and with the best projectile spammers (Falco, Lucas, Zelda, Snake, etc).

This character's recovery seems great, and was quite intimidating when the game was first released, but now that the game has been out for longer we've come to realize just how easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes.

Ike's was certainly harder to gimp back shortly after the release than it is now. All you have to do is throw yourself in front of QD and airdodge. Counter his Aether with Marth, Shield it with Pit, or Cape with Mario. It's quite easy to deal with now. Having two recovery options does sound intimidating, especially Aether, with it's Projectile like properties, Super Armor, and long lasting-ness. Its not the easiest to punish as so much it is to gimp. Aether and QD are both decent moves on stage, and dthrow can lead into an aether. Im unsure. If he does QD, you can punish with jumping in front of him, and if he drops down for the aether, you can push him away.

Dedede's recovery hasn't seemed to change too much from the release. It's always had the super armor, the weird aiming, and the choice between spiking or free falling at the end. Now, the part that you may what to consider is the punishing aspect. If spiked, this is quite hard to punish. It creates stars (like Yoshi's Down B), it spikes (obviously), and its overall hard to deal with. On the other hand, if it isnt in this form it's incredibly easy to punish. He's stuck in freefall form, it does no damage meaning you can ledgehog this part, and a lot can be done depending on your character (like G&W Uair Stalling). This fits PERFECTLY into the easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes bill.

You can punish one form, and you cant the other.
Ike can be gimped easy which fits into the punishing bill.

Dedede's is intimidating, but manageable.
Ike's is now almost laughable (it wasnt always to this degree)

It can go even, but Dedede feels to fit this bit better.

Always be careful when you're playing against this character; even if you're winning, the game can turn around instant if you don't react fast enough.

It's Ike, of course the game can turn around! His Smashes, Aerial, Tilts, and Eruptions kill at low percents if you slip up. Pretty much all he has will kill you!! He has plenty of spikes which can turn around any lead you may have; Dtilt, Dair, Aether spikes, and I think eruption does this too? If you dont react quickly, Ike will punish you. He can cide in the end despite your lead, and he kills far lower than you, usually.

Similar with Ike, Dedede has some great options to turn things around. Powerful smashes, a lethal dash attack, his jet hammer, and THE GORDO. If you dont react accordingly, you're gonna die. Another thing Dedede has to his name is his CG. If you're one of the characters who gets infinited by him, and you dont react fast enough, the match is certainly not in your favor. Don't get grabbed? Also, he has his own cide, and can shoot you under the stage with his suckup move.

Another one which seems really close. They both have their share of killing options, and game changing techniques.

The public consensus is that Ike fits this part better, but I see it being very close.

I'll have to go with everyone else and say Ike for this part.
But Panda may be sneaky like he was with the "obvious" Link!

When all is said and done, this character can be fun to play with, but is rarely fun to play against.

Ike is quite fun to play as. He has a sword and fights for his friends. Seriously, spamming Aether is one of the funnest thing to do to people new to the game. Throwing off taunts with him is always appropriate, anytime during the match! He's also very unfun for others. He hits hard and kills low, taunting will mess with your head, and Aether is hard to DI out of at low percents.

Now, Dedede can be loads of fun, too. Spamming your Waddle Dee's and occasionally getting a Gordo is awesome, crouching is a taunt in itself, and some people find CGing the best fun. He's got cides for the children, a hammer for the parents, and a funky dance for the seniors. It's also frustrating for some to chain grabbed or infinited, or cided, or spammed by waddle dees, or hit with a giant hammer, or ...

Now fun to play as is quite subjective.
I find Ike as more fun to play as when Im messing around, throwing off quotes and smashes, and aethering till my B button sticks.
Playing Dedede sounds more frustrating, though, as he forces and stops approaches better, has the chain grabs, and has a projectile.

So I guess...

Dedede.

Can you guess who next week's character will be?

I started this off with a step-by-step look at who it might be. I thought it would be Ike, but thinking through it, Dedede seems quite likely.

So what do you all think?

EDIT:

1. Ike and DDD are too **** obvious. Its never the obvious characters

Um...

LAST WEEK WAS THE MOST OBVIOUS CHARACTER EVER.
Link.

people thought it would be someone else because Ganondorf was so unexpected.
I voted Olimar, though the obvious choice was link.

I've only failed to guess Link and G-Dorf so far, so these arent the hardest.
But they're getting trickier.

 

[null]

Very nice.

I'm glad you brought the Gordo to my attention, Dedede is seeming to fit quite well.
Though I still think Zelda can too...

Oh well, it's not like we're being graded for this. =D

 

[manhunter098]

Zelda has Naryu's Love, which reflects projectiles. And for the most part anything that reflects projectiles (especially for a duration as long as Naryu's Love) is effective at stopping an enemies projectile spamming.

Anyone who said it was Lucario is dead wrong, since Lucario has no trouble with faster characters.


And DDD can be spammed with projectiles by the more proficient projectile spamming characters, like Falco, Link and Toon Link, Lucas (PK Thunder), Pikachu. Heck, you can pretty much spam him with any projectile using chracters as long as you realize you can make your projectile go over the Waddle Dees...

 

[Recognize]

I changed my vote goes to ike.

 

[sagemoon]

Actually I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Ice Climbers. Anyone that knows how to do the infinites w/ them can turn the match around. They aren't good against projectile spam, nor faster characters. The recovery seemed good at first, but now that people have caught on that all you need to do is do some move with a sex kick after nana grabs the edge (gimping popo if done right) it can make the recovery gimpable in certain situations.

Lastly, they sure as hell aren't fun to play against and fun to play with. IC can do so many varieties with infinates, but the opponent remains immobilized often making matches a dull and boring game of "dont get grabbed"

 

[Binx]

I think I've incorrectly said Ice Climbers enough times and so this time I was just gonna copy the last poster if he made sense. And yes he did, but he also said Ice Climbers, so I guess I get my wish after all to say Ice Climbers again. Hurray or something...

 

[DrakeRowan]

This has to be either Pit/Ike

 

[DGMavn]

My guess is Wario.

 

[Vaul]

I'm just gonna continue to stress this point so to hopefully one day arouse some discussion beyond 'its obv ike 100%' and 'ddd is so good but like pwned by fasties'. Yea, that's right. Verbatim. (I really need to make the first post on a new page so this **** actually gets read).

Ironically, the manner in which Ike (and perhaps DDD) fits the description so well is exactly why it WONT be Ike (and/or DDD). Samurai Panda stated a few days ago that last week's hint was WAY too easy (which it was) and that he'll have to make next week's hint more difficult. Since Ike is the more obvious candidate given the description, most would easily expect him. I'm sure SP had this exact thing in mind when he wrote the hint. Just because they fulfill the criteria doesn't mean its them, and just because they don't personify certain qualities doesn't mean its not them (Ganondorf's 'devastating' aerial game anyone?). You really gotta think deeper than just relying on first impressions and what is obvious to virtually anyone. What fun/purpose would there be to this whole thread if everything was nice and accurate and obvious?

My money's on Luigi, then DK. For the random/WTF character (as was the case for Week 8), I'm going with Bowser and....for the hell of it....Jigglypuff.



It can be Zelda....but who actually enjoys playing AS Zelda and still be comfortable with their lack of integrity, lack of technical skill (for Brawl anyway), and how sad their life must be when they find playing as Zelda to be a highly enjoyable and rewarding experience?

 

[Vaul]

So what do you all think?

EDIT:

Um...

LAST WEEK WAS THE MOST OBVIOUS CHARACTER EVER.
Link.

people thought it would be someone else because Ganondorf was so unexpected.
I voted Olimar, though the obvious choice was link.

I've only failed to guess Link and G-Dorf so far, so these arent the hardest.
But they're getting trickier.

Which is why Samurai Panda stated some pages back that last week's hint was wayyy too easy and that he'll have to make Week 10's more difficult.

The majority of people last week definitely expected Link, namely because of how specific the hint was concerning the Link mainer SP gave credit to.

Ironic how last week was 'the most obvious character ever' and you still got it wrong.



EDIT: Double Penetration. So sue me.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Which is why Samurai Panda stated some pages back that last week's hint was wayyy too easy and that he'll have to make Week 10's more difficult.

He also said something interesting, I believe though I might be crazy. A couple posts after the one he made on 136 he said he finally added the hint for the new character and he tweaked it and wasnt satisfied. He said something to the effect that he was unsure he made it so that the hint was too easy to guess or not. I think.

Funny thing was...

the post isnt there anymore. This makes me think he deleted it.

The majority of people last week definitely expected Link, namely because of how specific the hint was concerning the Link mainer SP gave credit to.

Ironic how last week was 'the most obvious character ever' and you still got it wrong..

And so what? I was wrong. The week prior, he gave us ganondorf, so I was looking for the harder choice, besides the obvious Link. In fact, many people went against the obvious and DIDNT choose Link. Many people did persuading like I'm doing now.

I replied after an Olimar main said Olimar and I felt he did fit the bill decently.

Dedede is what I think now. The obvious choice seemed to be Ike, but when I went in detail for detail, Dedede fit better. It may not be them. So what? We're all having fun guessing and being right and being wrong. I felt like making a bigger post, and I did.

People are still going to choose the obvious, and some are going to think that he's being tricky and pick obscure people. I think it's dedede as he fits best, but isnt too obvious.

So what?

 

[waks]

Im thinking its Ike, possibly.

 

[Airgemini]

Anyone else thinking it might be Jigglypuff?

 

[The_NZA]

My money is on Ike

 

[MajinSweet]

Its mah boy Ike.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

Ike much??? no doubt

 

[MiraiGen]

The users are getting rabid for the summary/update. As fun as it is to tease them, we should probably move the thread soon ^_^

Oh you SON OF A ***** SP...

 

[SiShenDao]

im guessing Ike...

 

[popsofctown]

The guy who said Ice Climbers convinced me. I think it's Ice Climbers.

It's simply the most tangible explanation (CGs) in the whole cast for "turning a match around", besides Lucario, and Lucario's recovery is not initially scary. We've edgehogged any recovery that doesn't do damage since melee, so why would anyone fear his medium range, damageless recovery?

 

[KingK]

How could the Ice Climber's recovery seem "intimidating" at the start when it is no different than it was in Melee? People already knew what to expect.

I don't think any returning character could fit this hint.

Ike also doesn't make sense to me. His recovery is hardly intimidating. If anything it seems sub-par. His over-b is certainly useful for horizontal recovery but the up-b is not that great. Plus, Ike is very heavy so he falls quickly.

 

[Nestec]

Hmm...My first thoughts were Ike and Dedede. But like it's been said before, Ike's recovery just isn't really intimidating as far as use. "Intimidating-looking"? Lol, I'd say that fits better. It's always scary to see a sword spinning in the air.

Dedede fits a bit better as far as intimidating use-wise. It goes high and pretty far, and lands with a pretty nice boom. I'm not too sure about gimping it, though.

Aside from Dedede and Ike, I'm thinking I'll go with...eh, Wario?

 

[FEJunkie]

I don't see why people keep thinking it's Ike. When was his recovery ever intimidating or good for that matter? (Ike has some good distances on his recovery but if hes coming from an angle hes pretty much screwed.)

 

[MysticKenji]

How could the Ice Climber's recovery seem "intimidating" at the start when it is no different than it was in Melee? People already knew what to expect.

Because the ICs don't gimp themselves anymore when they recover, since they can both grab the ledge and Belay is a tether.

When was his recovery ever intimidating or good for that matter?

Before you joined.

Also, what's NOT intimidating about Aether?
He's throwing his ****ing gigantic sword at you.

 

[Gamekidadv]

As I said, her projectile is slow, and thus interruptible by faster projectiles.
An intelligent player will trick her into reflecting, but she'll reflect nothing back and instead be punished for it.
She most certainly can have trouble with a fast character.
Her recovery was easily punished in Melee, and still is now.
What is and isn't intimidating is relative to the player.
Being a defensive character both allows the match to be turned should the attacker stop playing carefully, AND most of the competitive smashers I know generally dislike defensive play (aka spamming), which is what most Zelda's do best. Thus, she's not fun to play against.

You seem to be under the impression that the Zelda player can't be intelligent or creative. Zelda won't just stand in a corner trying to spam Din's when facing someone with a faster projectile. She'll get close enough to use Din's without being interrupted and if in a situation where she will get interrupted before she manually explode it, she can aim Din's into the ground near the opponent, trading hits with him. And an intelligent Zelda player knows whether a reflected projectile will hit the opponent and if she will be punished for reflecting. She won't fall for the sort of obvious trick your describing.

I seem to hear a lot of people saying Zelda has trouble with faster characters, but I simply don't understand how. Someone care to elaborate on this, because I don't see how she has trouble with them.

Not saying Zelda's recovery can't be at all punishable, but she does have a handful of options that she can mix up, making her recovery less punishable. She can go for the edge, teleport behind the oppenent, teleport into the opponent, or teleport in front of the opponent. And I have never heard one person describe her recovery as intimidating, have you?

Always be careful when you're playing against this character; even if you're winning, the game can turn around instant if you don't react fast enough.
Note he uses the word instant. Zelda's not going to kill you instantly if you let your guard down for a moment. She'll land a few hits, but nothing that will turn the game around.

I can't refute your last point. As I said, fun is relative, a matter of opinion, but I do think Zelda is fun to play as, and I could see how she can be a pain to play against, so I give in to the last part.

 

[Vaul]

[SP] also said something interesting, I believe though I might be crazy. A couple posts after the one he made on 136 he said he finally added the hint for the new character and he tweaked it and wasnt satisfied. He said something to the effect that he was unsure he made it so that the hint was too easy to guess or not. I think.

Funny thing was...

the post isnt there anymore. This makes me think he deleted it.

If what you say is true, then it may very well be Ike or DDD. OR even more interesting, maybe he intended it to be a red herring, throwing off people even more. However, he did delete it, so its probably unlikely (hell, maybe he felt semi-guilty about misleading everyone? He'd be the man if it was a red herring though).






EDIT: It can be Zelda....but who actually enjoys playing AS Zelda and still be comfortable with their lack of integrity, lack of technical skill (for Brawl anyway), and how sad their life must be when they find playing as Zelda to be a highly enjoyable and rewarding experience? IMO, she is the pixel manifestation of all that is wrong with Brawl.

 

[Airgemini]

It could be Luigi since his Up B can turn a match around pretty fast.
And if you're not paying attention he can pull that Jab -> Up B combo and KO you instantly.
His recovery did seem great at first because of his Down B buff when using it in the air and still having the options to either Up or Side B to get back on the stage.
But I dont really play Luigi so I dont really know how it can be sometimes punished.

 

[Trexxen]

I'm going to say it's Pit.

He was commonly regarded as top tier in the beginning, not sure if he still is or not but with the advent of Snake...=P Anywho, his recovery was discovered to be gimpable with the fact that he doesn't regain his up+B. And on top of that, he's not exactly fast (has trouble with the faster characters), and his projectiles take a second to come out, so the projectile spammers can spam him.

~Trexxen

 

[FEJunkie]

I'm going to say it's Pit.

He was commonly regarded as top tier in the beginning, not sure if he still is or not but with the advent of Snake...=P Anywho, his recovery was discovered to be gimpable with the fact that he doesn't regain his up+B. And on top of that, he's not exactly fast (has trouble with the faster characters), and his projectiles take a second to come out, so the projectile spammers can spam him.

~Trexxen

Pit also has two reflectors and a bunch of arrow tricks. I'd imagine he wouldn't have trouble with projectiles and his recovery....it's gimpable but a smart pit wouldn't have trouble getting back to the stage with little punishment(Unless their fighting a ROB/Marth).

 

[KratosAurion]

I don't know why everyone keeps thinking it's DDD. The projectile part might fit him well but he's a projectile spammer as well, minions could easily outspam many projectiles in the game. Pit/Olimar are probably the only characters that give him trouble when spamming arrows/pikmin.

Also, he's not exactly a slow character. Anyone who has played DDD knows his aerial game, particularly his B-air and N-air, is fairly quick and his forward tilt covers a wide range, goes through projectiles and has a disjointed hitbox. Which means he can reach and poke campy characters with ease. So yeah, he's not fast, but I wouldn't call him slow either. The only fast character I guess he has trouble against is Metaknight, he goes fairly well against the others, including Sonic. The only really slow part about him are his smash attacks, as his tilts and aerials come out quick most of the time.


He doesn't really have any "turn-around" properties either except for the Dededecide. Ike fits this part of the tip much better considering that he can kill you easily at low percents.

On a last note, his recovery is fairly gimpable, we all know that, but not more than Ike's. Considering that the hint says" we've come to realize just how easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes", the probabilities that it might be Ike are much higher due to the fact that DDD has more options for recovery, including 4 jumps and the ability to cancel his Up B.

These are my main reasons for thinking that it's not DDD. This hint just screams IKE.

 

[MiraiGen]

EDIT: It can be Zelda....but who actually enjoys playing AS Zelda and still be comfortable with their lack of integrity, lack of technical skill (for Brawl anyway), and how sad their life must be when they find playing as Zelda to be a highly enjoyable and rewarding experience? IMO, she is the pixel manifestation of all that is wrong with Brawl.

...Huh?

Zelda's one of my stronger competitors for a main right now. I don't know what you're trying to get at here, but it really sounds like lots of the same reactionary arguments against playing Shiek back in Melee, what with "But she's no fun to play!" or "But it's not as satisfying to be good with her!" Even worse, you're not just attacking her, you're attacking the people that play her, which is pretty dumb.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I don't know why everyone keeps thinking it's DDD. The projectile part might fit him well but he's a projectile spammer as well, minions could easily outspam many projectiles in the game. Pit/Olimar are probably the only characters that give him trouble when spamming arrows/pikmin.

According to the matchup chart (yeahyeah, but I want some quick info, maybe not the most aaccurate)...

Dedede has: Falco, Lucas, Pika, Olimar, ROB, Samus, and Zelda as notable projectile spammers.

Ike has: Falco, Dedede, Link, Lucario, Lucas, Pika, Olimar, Pit, ROB, Snake, TL, and Wolf

Ike fits the bill better here, but the hint doesnt necessarily go off of the best option
available, remember that. Dedede does have problems with projectile spammers, though.

Also, he's not exactly a slow character. Anyone who has played DDD knows his aerial game, particularly his B-air and N-air, is fairly quick and his forward tilt covers a wide range, goes through projectiles and has a disjointed hitbox. Which means he can reach and poke campy characters with ease.

Compared to most the cast, yeah, he is pretty slow. He may be faster than other big characters like Charizard, Bowser, and Ganon, but he's not even at average speed. Most of his attacks have lag, his movement speed in the air and on the ground isnt the greatest, and he just doesnt match up well with quickees.

So yeah, he's not fast, but I wouldn't call him slow either. The only fast character I guess he has trouble against is Metaknight, he goes fairly well against the others, including Sonic. The only really slow part about him are his smash attacks, as his tilts and aerials come out quick most of the time.

This has nothing to do with him having some speed. It doesnt matter if this character is fast or slow, the hint says they have problems with faster characters. This means they have problems with people who have above average speed, or at least the characters they have issues with are faster.

Dedede has many more bad matchups with fast characters than Ike does. This seems to be the main part of the problem with fast/projectiles hint. The projectiles seem to be an add-on, while the speed part is probably a bit more important.

people like Sonic, Diddy, Squirtle, MK, Ness, and Pika are some of his issues.

ike has more problems with projectile spammers.

He doesn't really have any "turn-around" properties either except for the Dededecide. Ike fits this part of the tip much better considering that he can kill you easily at low percents.

Dedede kills incredibly early as well, so whats your point?

turn around instant if you don't react fast enough.

They both fit this with they're powerful attacks, but you have to consider a few other tricks Dedede has. Yes, you mentioned the cide, but what about the Gordo? The game can completely switch around when this thing flies at you and you're caught of guard. He also has CG's that might cost you the match when you react to slow. Dk has to stay on his toes for fear of the infinite. Mostly, the Gordo is what I think this part means.

On a last note, his recovery is fairly gimpable, we all know that, but not more than Ike's. Considering that the hint says" we've come to realize just how easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes", the probabilities that it might be Ike are much higher due to the fact that DDD has more options for recovery, including 4 jumps and the ability to cancel his Up B.

oh, but you theres a key word in this part of the hint...

we've come to realize just how easy this character's recovery can be to punish sometimes

You mention canceling his Up B. This is where I think the sometimes refers to. If he doesnt cancel, he cant grab the edge. If he does, and you're on the ledge, he doesnt do damage and falls to his death.

It doesnt necessarily mean to gimp, though, just punish. Dedede can usually only be punished for using his UpB when he cancels it. Here, he's helpless.

While I do think Ike fits this, you cant say Dedede doesnt fit this just as well.

These are my main reasons for thinking that it's not DDD. This hint just screams IKE.

At first glance, it does scream Ike. I thought it was Ike myself until I did a little analysis a few pages back. Check that out if you get the time.

I'm not saying its going to be Dedede, just that he's as likely as Ike is.
Or more so.

But it could still be someone else entirely! x___X

 

[Vaul]

...Huh?

Zelda's one of my stronger competitors for a main right now. I don't know what you're trying to get at here, but it really sounds like lots of the same reactionary arguments against playing Shiek back in Melee, what with "But she's no fun to play!" or "But it's not as satisfying to be good with her!" Even worse, you're not just attacking her, you're attacking the people that play her, which is pretty dumb.

She's one of the easiest characters to be 'good' with (along the lines of Wolf and G&W, this coming from a former G&W main) and easy to pickup. Not saying that this is concrete evidence, but pretty much every Zelda (and G&W for that matter) competitive player are near identical to one another in terms of tactics and styles. Spam Dins, usually don't approach, and abuse nearly unpunishable smashes as she has no combo game. Also applies for G&W with bair approach, dair to dtilt abuse, dthrow tech chasing, and of course, abusing the overpowered smashes (maybe a player will attempt to 'pillar' using the upB and dair and THINK they're being technical and unpredictable, but I won't ruin their fantasies).

Of course these are generalizations (and I am purposely trying to be controversial to actually get some interesting discussion going), but I still very much share the basic views stated earlier. Sheik in Melee is in no way remotely comparable to Zelda in Brawl; sheik actually had numerous options to choose from, could combo/actually fight, and required technical skill to excell. The opposite is true of Zelda. I'm not trying to turn this into a Brawl v. Melee debate---that's been in overkill for quite awhile now---and I'm sure you have a very good Zelda, but seriously, if you could prove me wrong otherwise with some footage I'd be happy to see it.

 

[TehBo49]

How could the Ice Climber's recovery seem "intimidating" at the start when it is no different than it was in Melee? People already knew what to expect.

I don't think any returning character could fit this hint.

Ike also doesn't make sense to me. His recovery is hardly intimidating. If anything it seems sub-par. His over-b is certainly useful for horizontal recovery but the up-b is not that great. Plus, Ike is very heavy so he falls quickly.

Back before Brawl was released, Ike's recovery was thought to be incredible due to the super armor & the sword which stopped edgehoggers. Even after Brawl came out, people still thought this & saw how far Quick Draw sent him. It wasn't until a few months ago that people figured out how bad it was.

Ike fits the description perfectly. Dedede also sounds good, but his Waddle Dees make spam less of a threat to him.

 

[samdaballer]

i got my money on D3

 

[KratosAurion]

According to the matchup chart (yeahyeah, but I want some quick info, maybe not the most aaccurate)...

Dedede has: Falco, Lucas, Pika, Olimar, ROB, Samus, and Zelda as notable projectile spammers.

Ike has: Falco, Dedede, Link, Lucario, Lucas, Pika, Olimar, Pit, ROB, Snake, TL, and Wolf

Ike fits the bill better here, but the hint doesnt necessarily go off of the best option
available, remember that. Dedede does have problems with projectile spammers, though.

I think IvanEva's chart is pretty accurate for the most part but IMo most of Dedede's matches are way off. I think it needs to be discussed more, particularly Zelda, Samus, ROB and Lucas. I think none of those characters have advantage over DDD, and their projectiles aren't problematic either. Zelda's fire is easily dodgeable, and correct me if I'm wrong but last time I saw you could go through Samus's missiles with F-tilt. On a last note I think DDD would be the better projectile spammer against ROB and Samus, and Lucas's PK Fire can be powershielded easily.

Dedede generally has problems with projectiles against some characters, but not as bad as Ike 'cause the minions are pretty spammable so he has something to fight back. However I do agree with you that it doesn't neccesarily mean it has to be Ike.

Compared to most the cast, yeah, he is pretty slow. He may be faster than other big characters like Charizard, Bowser, and Ganon, but he's not even at average speed. Most of his attacks have lag, his movement speed in the air and on the ground isnt the greatest, and he just doesnt match up well with quickees.

Most of DDD's aerials can be done before landing back on stage so his landing lag is not a problem IMO. He has very low startup time on most of his attacks except his smashes obviously. I don't think speed is among of his most glaring weaknesses.
Still, I agree he's probably not on average speed.

This has nothing to do with him having some speed. It doesnt matter if this character is fast or slow, the hint says they have problems with faster characters. This means they have problems with people who have above average speed, or at least the characters they have issues with are faster.

Dedede has many more bad matchups with fast characters than Ike does. This seems to be the main part of the problem with fast/projectiles hint. The projectiles seem to be an add-on, while the speed part is probably a bit more important.

people like Sonic, Diddy, Squirtle, MK, Ness, and Pika are some of his issues.

ike has more problems with projectile spammers.

You have a point here. What I mean with him not being too slow is that he has enough speed to fight back against most quick characters. Also, he has good range, and good edgeguarding and camping games that help him a lot in this kind of matchups. Ike on the other hand is more limited when it comes to options.

I don't know where you're getting the matchup part from, but the matchup thread has many points to debate on both characters. Also, if you check the character rankings thread, you can see Dedede is number 3, which should be taken into account considering the fact that at this point of the metagame quick characters like Marth and MK are being spammed all over the place. It really makes you wonder if he really has problems against them at all.

Dedede kills incredibly early as well, so whats your point?

They both fit this with they're powerful attacks, but you have to consider a few other tricks Dedede has. Yes, you mentioned the cide, but what about the Gordo? The game can completely switch around when this thing flies at you and you're caught of guard. He also has CG's that might cost you the match when you react to slow. Dk has to stay on his toes for fear of the infinite. Mostly, the Gordo is what I think this part means.

My point was that Ike's KO potencial is better than that of Dedede, specially in his aerial game. However that's not much of a determining fact IMO. Both have similar turn-around capacities.

You're right here, I didn't think about the Gordo. However this is more of a random element, I think this part of the hint is refered to slow, powerful attacks, in which case both fit pretty well.

You mention canceling his Up B. This is where I think the sometimes refers to. If he doesnt cancel, he cant grab the edge. If he does, and you're on the ledge, he doesnt do damage and falls to his death.

It doesnt necessarily mean to gimp, though, just punish. Dedede can usually only be punished for using his UpB when he cancels it. Here, he's helpless.

While I do think Ike fits this, you cant say Dedede doesnt fit this just as well.

Of course, you can never gimp a recovery all the time. Both character can be very punisheable when they're excecuting their up-B, the thing is that you'll force Ike into it much more than DDD, because the latter is heavier and has 4 jumps to worth with.

But it could still be someone else entirely! x___X

I've been thinking more and more that this might be the case XD

 

[SD14]

i think that it is pit for next week beacuse it says that in the begining that it there recovry seemed great but now we know that it is easy to gimp if you just hit him out of this blue wings when he isnt over the stage but that is just me

 

[Vaul]

I think IvanEva's chart is pretty accurate for the most part but IMo most of Dedede's matches are way off. I think it needs to be discussed more, particularly Zelda, Samus, ROB and Lucas. I think none of those characters have advantage over DDD, and their projectiles aren't problematic either. Zelda's fire is easily dodgeable, and correct me if I'm wrong but last time I saw you could go through Samus's missiles with F-tilt. On a last note I think DDD would be the better projectile spammer against ROB and Samus, and Lucas's PK Fire can be powershielded easily.

I wouldn't exactly call DDD's ftilt as his all mighty savior, completely nullifying Samus's projectile game. Sure DDD can cancel a missle, but how about two using Missle Canceling? Or three homing missles at once? Three homing missles followed by three more with MC? Or MC followed by zair? Or constant zairing with SJR? Or spamed charge shots? Or MC to zair to full charge shot? Yes, that does work well with medium to heavy characters at certain percents.

But you get my point.

Just because DDD can respond to a single missle with ftilts means close to nothing. Waddledees, although good for some protection, cannot overcome all the stated above; a good Samus will not give you a second to breathe without having to evade or shield. DDD's MASSIVE frame just screams zair pwnage, more missle hits, and a superb punching bag for SJR'd aerial attacks. The only thing I see DDD having over Samus (besides his heaviness and her lack of KO moves; gimpings the way to go) is his chaingrab. But as the Brawl community has learned over the past few months, his CG is not broken and will NOT determine the outcome of a matchup. Sure its a factor, but its definitely not the sole determinant. At the absolute least I would say the matchup is even, but I still view Samus as the favorite here. She really is starting to grasp her potential with ISJR and whatnot.

I can't really speak on behalf of Lucas, ROB and Zelda (of whom, if you read my previous post or two, is, well, a simpleton), but I think they've got options you're not taking into account. I cannot stress enough how devasting Zelda's upsmash, bairs and fairs are to a giant floaty DDD. Good luck with that one.