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Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword SPOILERS Thread (SPOILERS I TELL YA)

theeboredone

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The ending shows that it had been going on the entire game. She was recognizing it at the end. It all makes sense, why would a robotic figure, designed to assist you and assist you only, start about irrelevant things like emotion?
Show me the proof on this statement. "The ending shows that it had been going on the entire game." Show me that it has been going on the entire game. As LT said, it's a possibility of two he listed, that it was a cheap toss in at the end. A possibility I'm more inclined to believe.

About games that get praised for their story direction such as Uncharted and Mass Effect. If Zelda has this "great story telling" then what are these two games? Are they absolute rubbish? Or are they God's creation if Zelda is deemed "great"? There needs to be a certain standard that should be reached

@LT

I sort of had a problem with what you say about narrative. Well, it was more pacing because the game loads you with "story" in the first few hours, and then the well runs dry minus the Temple of Time event. It is only after you collect all 3 flames, do you get some more story. By then, I thought the pacing was pretty well towards the end. I mean, I just got that feeling during the middle of the game of "Why am I doing all of this again?"

I liked the robots and mogmas too...but I dunno, something felt off. If anything, I think this game did a good job with characterization around its main chars (especially Groose), and neglected the side characters. I feel like in other Zelda games, it's almost the opposite so to speak.
 

MagmarFire

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About games that get praised for their story direction such as Uncharted and Mass Effect. If Zelda has this "great story telling" then what are these two games? Are they absolute rubbish? Or are they God's creation if Zelda is deemed "great"? There needs to be a certain standard that should be reached
I disagree. A standard is only useful in subject matter that's objective in nature, like mathematics or HTML. I could say that it's my opinion that 2 + 2 == FISH, but the most recognition I'd get is a get-a-laugh-from-the-community-free card and a revocation of a math degree. Likewise, I can't be objective with a multidisciplinary art form like this one because everyone won't interpret it in the same way. What one person thinks is great is just going to get a "meh" response from someone else sometime or another.

In other words, trying to achieve objectivity--ultimately creating a standard with which to measure other games--when reflecting on a game is foolhardy. What if not everyone has the same standard, which is most certainly the case? This is exactly why that, for example, number scores in reviews are completely arbitrary.
 

theeboredone

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But then it doesn't make sense to praise the story. When I read what critics or people have to say, and what they say is "This is the best story of any Zelda game" and then award it a "10" for that aspect...what does that say about games that do focus on story elements as opposed to say, gameplay elements?

Again, look back to Uncharted. Both would be under the Action Adventure genre, with one being a TPS and the other something else. You look down on the review, and both games get awarded a perfect score for story. Which is better then? Clearly more effort was put into Uncharted as opposed to Zelda when it comes to story and it clearly shows. So why should both games be put on equal ground?

With that being said, that doesn't mean Zelda should strive to be cinematic and engaging as Uncharted. Rather, it needs to take itself to the next level in a Zelda way. Like I said, this is one of the best if not the best story told games for Zelda, but it is no where near perfect with how it performs in pacing, the inability to skip through read text, lips moving with no voices (personal complaint), and for whatever reason...having text boxes during "cinematic" sequences...which make them less cinematic. It's a step in the right direction, but it's not there yet. Nintendo...especially with Zelda always seems to be slow and careful when it comes to making drastic changes.
 

Luigitoilet

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I think you are giving way too much weight and credence to reviews and rating systems, boredone. Number systems are a ridiculous way to gauge the quality of any subjective medium. And then beyond that, many game reviewers just aren't that great so they don't adequately explain the reasoning behind their scores.
 

theeboredone

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I know I am, and the reason I am is because reviews matter. While they don't matter as much in the video game world compared to movies, it can definitely make or break between sales. We all know Zelda has a fan base, and people are gonna buy the game no matter what. However, for those who are on the fence, for those who have never tried it, or for someone even like me...if I see people left and right praising the game like this...then all it does is tells us "maybes" to buy it. It matters a lot. Uncharted 2 would still be having lackluster sales had it not won GOTY 2 years ago. So it's important all around...to games that already have a well known name, and to games who are trying to prove themselves.

And I'd like to say it's jut not reviewers. I mean, gamer opinions matter too. Some see through the reviewers and realize that in this case, the story is not what it's meant to be. But by the time they realize it, the purchase has been made so what's the point?
 

Luigitoilet

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Eh. I don't think that matters because sales don't matter. The game is the same regardless of how it sells. It's not really relevant to the consumer to consider the financial aspect of production, and it's certainly not relevant to the quality of the product itself. I mean, yeah, in a strictly consumer "what game should I get" sense I guess it matters but we're all discussing a game we own (for the most part) and its intimacies. Sales figures and rating numbers aren't in the game, so I don't think they should be a factor in the overall quality judgment of the game.
 

theeboredone

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But think about it. How does a game get popular and establish itself in the first place? Through word of mouth, reviews, and brand name. Now imagine if for whatever reason, all these people who got this series popular in the first place, opened their eyes and demanded a better product. I wait 5 years for a console Zelda, and you guys give me this? I know games that dish out stuff better in 2 years. What would that do to Nintendo? It'd make them actually try to develop and take that extra mile.

I think they did a good job with the introduction of the Wii and eventually motion+. However, it really seems like they just stopped caring once people were buying the Wii left and right. They made their money. They were fat and happy.

And you can't tell me it's not possible. Look at the results Operation Rainfall yielded. It took time, but we have Xenoblade coming to the states.
 

Spire

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You guys are ridiculous. Some of you like Fi, some of you don't, some of you are on the fence. Whatever.
 

MagmarFire

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But then it doesn't make sense to praise the story. When I read what critics or people have to say, and what they say is "This is the best story of any Zelda game" and then award it a "10" for that aspect...what does that say about games that do focus on story elements as opposed to say, gameplay elements?

Again, look back to Uncharted. Both would be under the Action Adventure genre, with one being a TPS and the other something else. You look down on the review, and both games get awarded a perfect score for story. Which is better then? Clearly more effort was put into Uncharted as opposed to Zelda when it comes to story and it clearly shows. So why should both games be put on equal ground?
Like I said before, scores are arbitrary, because there's a different standard for everyone who consumes the medium. How can one say that Fahrenheit 451 is better than The Lord of the Rings in regards to classic literature? Both are great stories, but obviously, more effort was (probably) done on The Lord of the Rings due in no small part to the summarization that it's a doorstopper. However, the difference in quality between these two works is still incomparable; they're two completely different genres in terms of story. What kind of praise do you think a sci-fi fan that despises high-fantasy is going to give The Lord of the Rings in comparison to Fahrenheit 451 in his reviews of both? What about a high-fantasy fan that can't stand sci-fi?

Moreover, more effort having been put into the work does not imply that it is better. No doubt effort in general is extremely important, but it's not the only thing that makes works of media great. As an example, is it really conceivable to think that a doodle that an inexperienced artist put his heart and soul into is automatically, by virtue, better than an expert artist who made an amazing-looking manga-styled comic strip in only a half-hour?

So which one is better? That's completely up to the reviewer.

However, you do make an excellent point with reviews mattering. Because they do. Holy crap, do they ever. Aside from the publicity, which you are 100% correct on, the lack of them is considered to be one of the things that could've helped prevent the Great Video Game Crash of 1983. Also, excellent reference to Xenoblade, which is another defining example to how public reaction can fudge those statistics. (Also, it's nice to see another Rainfaller around here! :D )

I think they did a good job with the introduction of the Wii and eventually motion+. However, it really seems like they just stopped caring once people were buying the Wii left and right. They made their money. They were fat and happy.
You may wish to rethink about them not caring...especially since the amount of work required to produce even a small game is immense.

You guys are ridiculous. Some of you like Fi, some of you don't, some of you are on the fence. Whatever.
Opinions. We has them.
 

Luigitoilet

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You guys are ridiculous. Some of you like Fi, some of you don't, some of you are on the fence. Whatever.
I don't get how it's any more ridiculous than any other discussion about Skyward Sword or games in general. Is timeline theorizing and other such speculative discussion somehow less ridiculous? I'm not sure I understand your beef with this discussion. People have different opinions and tend to express them on a social board?
 

theeboredone

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Like I said before, scores are arbitrary, because there's a different standard for everyone who consumes the medium. How can one say that Fahrenheit 451 is better than The Lord of the Rings in regards to classic literature?
It's difficult, but that's why reviewers need to try and be objective. Personally, when I personally "review" over a game, I give an opinion (how I felt with my heart) and then to the best of my ability, an objective side. So with that being said, you CAN distinguish between the two in which is better by analyzing everything from the pacing, characterization, character development, emotion (text descriptions I guess), and whatever else is put into a book review. I hate it when people ask "I can only get one" and the response is "Get both." You are not thinking with your brain then if you can't decide which is better.


What kind of praise do you think a sci-fi fan that despises high-fantasy is going to give The Lord of the Rings in comparison to Fahrenheit 451 in his reviews of both? What about a high-fantasy fan that can't stand sci-fi?[/B


But that's the idea of trying to be objective or not. A critic, or any rational person may hate a certain subject, but can still acknowledge the good or greatness in something when they see it. For example, I don't like Portal 2. I forced myself to play through it, and even after finishing it, in my heart, I would say it's a boring game. However, if I stop and pause to look at it, I can acknowledge the game for what it is and understand the things this game does right, and why people would consider it a GOTY.

So when it comes to Zelda, and when reviewers say "This is the best story in a Zelda game." and mark it as a 10/10, well I just shake my head, because you are...

A: Putting Zelda into its own category. I don't see this happen with other games and series. Why does Zelda get its own "story" category? Why is it suddenly exempt from other series in its genres?
B: Inflating the score due to that reason above.

The solution would be to note in your review or statement that some segments of your score will weigh heavier than others. In this case, Zelda's "story" score is not gonna weigh as heavy as say...gameplay. I think IGN does that (shocker), but other sites just average it out.

Moreover, more effort having been put into the work does not imply that it is better. No doubt effort in general is extremely important, but it's not the only thing that makes works of media great. As an example, is it really conceivable to think that a doodle that an inexperienced artist put his heart and soul into is automatically, by virtue, better than an expert artist who made an amazing-looking manga-styled comic strip in only a half-hour?
My fault. I was not trying to convey the message of effort = better product. All I was saying is that one group cares more about making a certain aspect of their game more standing out than others, so they put more resources into it. And this even goes into your next statement of...


You may wish to rethink about them not caring...especially since the amount of work required to produce even a small game is immense.
What I was going to say is that, it also depends on how you manage that effort. Ubisoft has/had 500 people working on Assassin's Creed, and that would easily surplus your argument of Nintendo having a small group, therefore taking a long time to make said game. However, Naughty Dog had only 85 people work on Uncharted 2 and they were able to shell out that game in 2 years, while drastically improving it in every area, AND securing GOTY awards. I don't know how Nintendo exactly goes about their development business, but in 2007, they had a higher net worth than Sony, and we all know Sony is not just a gaming company. So to say they can't afford a bigger development team is just outright a bad lie.

So whatever "development" problems Nintendo is having, that's simply an internal battle with how their money is being spent and how they are managing their resources. Though that article makes it clear why we haven't seen another Pikmin, or why we are just seeing a Kid Icarus game come out in the near future. The article also says Nintendo is in it for the money (as is any business.) I'm guessing the chairmen know those games won't sell as well as say, "Mario's 3D Walk In The Park". So yes, I stand true when I say "Nintendo doesn't care." It's a travesty how we didn't get a single Pikmin game, despite it being a good seller. We only got one DK game...which took a while to get to. No Luigi game. Kirby took a while. And now that I think about it, I'm surprised they didn't release another Mario Party with online capabilities. I just don't get Nintendo.

I wish I could start my own gaming review site or work for a well known one and branch off. I'd get so many website hits (and haters.)

I don't get how it's any more ridiculous than any other discussion about Skyward Sword or games in general. Is timeline theorizing and other such speculative discussion somehow less ridiculous? I'm not sure I understand your beef with this discussion. People have different opinions and tend to express them on a social board?
Arguing/Discussing something that has already been established by Nintendo is not mainstream. Expressing opinions is.
 

MagmarFire

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It's difficult, but that's why reviewers need to try and be objective. Personally, when I personally "review" over a game, I give an opinion (how I felt with my heart) and then to the best of my ability, an objective side. So with that being said, you CAN distinguish between the two in which is better by analyzing everything from the pacing, characterization, character development, emotion (text descriptions I guess), and whatever else is put into a book review. I hate it when people ask "I can only get one" and the response is "Get both." You are not thinking with your brain then if you can't decide which is better.
I wouldn't say you're thinking with your brain if you can decide, either. Better isn't really a matter of intellect--only a preference. Like anything else, your mileage will vary as to how well-executed pacing, characterization, etc. was implemented.

But that's the idea of trying to be objective or not. A critic, or any rational person may hate a certain subject, but can still acknowledge the good or greatness in something when they see it. For example, I don't like Portal 2. I forced myself to play through it, and even after finishing it, in my heart, I would say it's a boring game. However, if I stop and pause to look at it, I can acknowledge the game for what it is and understand the things this game does right, and why people would consider it a GOTY.

So when it comes to Zelda, and when reviewers say "This is the best story in a Zelda game." and mark it as a 10/10, well I just shake my head, because you are...

A: Putting Zelda into its own category. I don't see this happen with other games and series. Why does Zelda get its own "story" category? Why is it suddenly exempt from other series in its genres?
B: Inflating the score due to that reason above.

The solution would be to note in your review or statement that some segments of your score will weigh heavier than others. In this case, Zelda's "story" score is not gonna weigh as heavy as say...gameplay. I think IGN does that (shocker), but other sites just average it out.
Ah, good point, good point. I'll concede there.

I'm a bit unclear as to one aspect of your argument, though. Are you saying that reviewers inflate the overall scores of the game to a 10/10 simply because the story is the best in its own series? Do correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't want to put words in your mouth and present an irrelevant argument based on that conclusion.

My fault. I was not trying to convey the message of effort = better product. All I was saying is that one group cares more about making a certain aspect of their game more standing out than others, so they put more resources into it.

. . .

What I was going to say is that, it also depends on how you manage that effort. Ubisoft has/had 500 people working on Assassin's Creed, and that would easily surplus your argument of Nintendo having a small group, therefore taking a long time to make said game. However, Naughty Dog had only 85 people work on Uncharted 2 and they were able to shell out that game in 2 years, while drastically improving it in every area, AND securing GOTY awards.
Super Mario Galaxy 2 did the exact same thing (albeit in about 2.5 years) and quite possibly around the same staff size as the first. What's your point?

Also, eighty-five people is still quite a considerable staff size for a AAA title, don't you think?

I don't know how Nintendo exactly goes about their development business, but in 2007, they had a higher net worth than Sony, and we all know Sony is not just a gaming company. So to say they can't afford a bigger development team is just outright a bad lie.
I suppose that makes sense, yeah, but a lot can change in five years. We've seen this with overall 2011 sales, meaning one-year's slip-up despite four-plus other years of prosperity almost cost Iwata his job. It's certainly a hit-or-miss business, no doubt.

...Then again, I'm not accounting for the massive losses of the PS3 era. Not sure if Sony's fully recovered from that yet.

So whatever "development" problems Nintendo is having, that's simply an internal battle with how their money is being spent and how they are managing their resources. Though that article makes it clear why we haven't seen another Pikmin, or why we are just seeing a Kid Icarus game come out in the near future. The article also says Nintendo is in it for the money (as is any business.) I'm guessing the chairmen know those games won't sell as well as say, "Mario's 3D Walk In The Park". So yes, I stand true when I say "Nintendo doesn't care."
Because them not caring totally explains how we've been getting consistently-good software for 30+ years. They care for the money, so they just half-*** their software development and just cross their fingers that it'll get positive reception and brand-name word-of-mouth, which is a scenario one would think of when a producer truly just "does not care." Uh-huh.

Snark aside, they sacrifice certain games and franchises for ones that sell better because they more-or-less have to. If they don't, then they make a risk that could possibly mean heavy losses and potential limitations to make more of their own product, which is a vicious downward spiral if there ever was one. In the meantime, you kind of need to care about your own product. It's one of the best ways to ensure that you'll do your darndest to make that product amazing enough to wow the consumer.

It's a travesty how we didn't get a single Pikmin game, despite it being a good seller. We only got one DK game...which took a while to get to. No Luigi game. Kirby took a while. And now that I think about it, I'm surprised they didn't release another Mario Party with online capabilities. I just don't get Nintendo.
This isn't a continuation of my argument or anything, but...wait, what happened to Luigi's Mansion 2? O.o

EDIT: Also, before I forget, wasn't another Pikmin game confirmed for the WiiU?
 

Diddy Kong

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Does anyone know how to beat that terrible harp playing side quest?

:phone:
 

GwJ

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Can you elaborate more? I don't recall what you're talking about, but if I did I'd be able to tell you.
 

etecoon

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Don't pay attention to the games instructions on the harp, move mechanically and swiftly from one side to the other, not slowly as if you were actually playing the harp. The worse it sounds the better the game probably thinks you're doing tbh
 

Diddy Kong

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Don't pay attention to the games instructions on the harp, move mechanically and swiftly from one side to the other, not slowly as if you were actually playing the harp. The worse it sounds the better the game probably thinks you're doing tbh
So it's not rhytym based at all? Just play as bad as possible?? Gonna try that. Thanks.
 

etecoon

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It really isn't, just swing when the hands move and then hold to that side until they move again
 

Diddy Kong

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Still seems pretty hard, cause some times they just move really fast all of a sudden. But I should just play fast?
 

T-block

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yeah just follow the hands. if you go too slow you fail. took me forever >=(

it does go double-time briefly at some points... just try to memorize where it does. it happens at the same point in the song every time.
 

Spire

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I think it's about time I play through this game again. I'm already feeling nostalgic for it.
 

Master Slice

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I know this is a little off subject but wth happened to the milk bar?

Sorry, I had nowhere else to ask...
 

Spire

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How do you play the Fledge minigame? Could never seem to activate that. Guessing it takes place at the pumpkin patch near Kukiel's house (outside of that little goblin kid's house)?

Nevermind, just found out it takes place in the knight academy courtyard. I think I'm gonna go play that and hunt down the last heart pieces now.
 

Diddy Kong

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The harp minigame is easier then the stupid pumpkin shooter game that Fledge runs...
I disagree.

Unrelated maybe but asking out of interest; how'd you guys feel about Impa from SS replacing Sheik in the new Smash?

:phone:
 

Holder of the Heel

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The harp minigame is easier then the stupid pumpkin shooter game that Fledge runs...
Oh god that game... it took me forever to do it, even when I got the hang of it when you get close to getting enough for the Heart Piece he will suddenly be an *** and lob it waaaaay over towards the wall. The only way I could do it was adjust the camera so it covered the entire area and I just followed it once it came on screen.

Another annoying aspect is that if you get close but fail he gives you a worthless treasure instead of giving you your rupees back, so at times when I think there is no chance of success I had to just stop and wait for me to lose, usually either shooting through Pierce or hitting the Stone in the back popping out green rupees (though it isn't possible to go get them...).


And I every time I did the harp thing, she never really liked my music by let me off anyhow. It was poorly explained..
 

Spire

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I disagree.

Unrelated maybe but asking out of interest; how'd you guys feel about Impa from SS replacing Sheik in the new Smash?

:phone:
I would totally be down with that. Give Zelda a new moveset based around her SS appearance, then replace Sheik with Impa as an entirely new character. Throw Ghirahim in there are boom, AWESOME.
 

SSBMLahti

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Oh god that game... it took me forever to do it, even when I got the hang of it when you get close to getting enough for the Heart Piece he will suddenly be an *** and lob it waaaaay over towards the wall. The only way I could do it was adjust the camera so it covered the entire area and I just followed it once it came on screen.

Another annoying aspect is that if you get close but fail he gives you a worthless treasure instead of giving you your rupees back, so at times when I think there is no chance of success I had to just stop and wait for me to lose, usually either shooting through Pierce or hitting the Stone in the back popping out green rupees (though it isn't possible to go get them...).


And I every time I did the harp thing, she never really liked my music by let me off anyhow. It was poorly explained..
This post contains the exact problems I had with that game!

For people not being able to do the pumpkin balance minigame.

I basically just moved the Wii mote from left to right, making it so that the pumpkins don't really have time to sway to one side. I beat it on my 2nd try because the 1st try I actually tried to balance and figured out it didn't really work.
 

Spire

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I did not mind Fledge's pumpkin shooting minigame, but hell, I found myself yearning for Link's Crossbow Training after playing it for 10 minutes.

Dodoh's challenge can rot in hell.

So can the rickety cart **** in the desert.

I did not mind the motion controls until having to do this crap for pieces of heart.
 

SSBMLahti

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I did not mind Fledge's pumpkin shooting minigame, but hell, I found myself yearning for Link's Crossbow Training after playing it for 10 minutes.

Dodoh's challenge can rot in hell.

So can the rickety cart **** in the desert.

I did not mind the motion controls until having to do this crap for pieces of heart.
I saved the 4 minigame Heart Pieces as my last ones- I almost broke my special edition WiiMotePlus that came with my Collector's Edition lol...
 

Holder of the Heel

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Dodoh was actually easy for me, it isn't timing so much as noticing the set patterns of when the jackpot is going to get in the right spot. When I won, I literally went straight to the top without any attempt, I just knew it'd go to the top and bam, tons of rupees and a heart piece.

Never went to try the cart, didn't feel like getting the last three or two pieces I left behind.
 

SSBMLahti

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Dodoh was actually easy for me, it isn't timing so much as noticing the set patterns of when the jackpot is going to get in the right spot. When I won, I literally went straight to the top without any attempt, I just knew it'd go to the top and bam, tons of rupees and a heart piece.

Never went to try the cart, didn't feel like getting the last three or two pieces I left behind.
Yeah, the FunFunIsland minigame wasn't that hard, I actually found it the easiest out of the four.
 

Luigitoilet

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I rarely find heartpiece minigames fun in any of the Zelda games, and extra heartpieces are never needed, and I'm not really a collection-guy or perfectionist so I'll try a minigame like three times and after that just say screw it, unless the reward is something more special than a heart piece.
 

SSBMLahti

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I rarely find heartpiece minigames fun in any of the Zelda games, and extra heartpieces are never needed, and I'm not really a collection-guy or perfectionist so I'll try a minigame like three times and after that just say screw it, unless the reward is something more special than a heart piece.
I'm pretty much the opposite. I only buy good RPG's, so I have a small amount of games- but I have to complete a game 100% if I buy it. So Dragon Age 1 & 2, Skyrim, Tales of Symphonia, Abyss, etc. The Zelda games, Golden Sun, etc.

It takes a lot of time, but I'm so OCD I have do to it lol. I can't stand not 100%'ing a game.
 
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