SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[highfive]

As I Sonic user I am deeply concerned about the mentality people think of Sonic users. A good Sonic user wouldn't use Fsmashes like crazy and charging an Fsmash as Lucario could put you in a bit of a disadvantage since Sonic has a decent air game. It would simply go Fsmash as Sonic, the Lucario would try to out range him but after releasing the Fmsmash and getting hit/shielding The lucario would be at a disadvantage as the Sonic user has several options to go by. The would be: Short hop to Dair, Spring jump to Dair, Homing Attack (it would be viable if the Lucario Fsmash didn't contact at all) and Short hop to Fair (It has a good range believe it or not) I believe there may be more if Sonic doesn't get hit but if he does his options are hindered quite a bit. They would consist of ASC (Air. Spin Charge) or simply regaining their ground if they left the stage. A better technique for a Lucario to approach Sonic is to simply punish their spin charges with a grab, Stay on the ground but use short hops to deter the Sonic from using his Spin Charges and using Lucario's neutral B to prevent Sonic from getting to close.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

from my experience which is not a whole lot vs sonic, if you look at both characters Lucario, whos fair in power and fair in speed, versus sonic who has overwhelming speed and little power, they try to use speed to over compensate their lack of strength, sonic if he holds the momentum can do his damage and if he plays smart can get you pretty good with a well timed bair, Fsmash or if hes getting close to the ceiling he'll go for the Uair kill off the top. but heres how i think it goes Power < Speed, but Speed < Range, which is our biggest weapon verse sonic, minus our standard killing moves: (all) smashes, on occasion B-throw, (if we're high into damage even) F-throw, Aura sphere so we have some options to kill the blue *******, i find sonics either come at us head on, or from the air, which we can beat him both @ sonic has few kill moves, which cuts his ability to stop us from going **** mode by alot, if we play smart and space well minus the knicks and chinks we'll take over time he'll find it hard killing a smart-cario, on top of that i noticed that double team was mentioned, we can use it on alot of his moves that have lag and it would leave him wide open for an easy kill, despite its crappyness double teams potent damage x 1.1 + aura is win, i think 65:35, or even 7:3

 

[tedward2000]

Spy check. *cough*
-t2

 

[Timbers]

In all honesty, Sonic shouldn't be giving you trouble at all.

I actually know a bit about the Sonic matchup. If sonic does give you trouble, just remember these tips.

Firstly, DI his Uthrow towards his face and Dair. He can't do ANYTHING if you do this.
Secondly, ALWAYS CP Yoshi's Island. The walls on the sides really screw Sonic up, and he can't gimp you with that platform there.
Thirdly, just pretend his attacks don't exist. Your fair and fsmash will go through everything, so just spam them.
Fourthly, Dtilt shuts Sonic down hard. Just using it rapidly will completely shut down his spindash approaches.
Fifthly, spam Fsmash. He can't do **** about it.
Sixthly, just spam shield. His grab range and overall grabbing ability is so bad he shouldn't even grab you once in the set, but if he does, remember to DI towards Sonic's front.
Seventhly, spam dair if you're in the air. He can't hit you between them, he can't outrange it, and he doesn't even do any damage/positional gain even if he connects. Spring Uair just doesn't work on Lucario.
Eightly, Sonic's Fsmash has HORRIBLE range and priority. If you see him charging it, stand about 1.2 Sonics away from his foot and charge Fsmash. You should be safe and then just release your fsmash after he releases his.

65:35 Lucario, maybe 6:4 Luc. Sonic's in for an uphill fight, but if he tries hard enough he can win.

:\

Sonic's grabgame is one of his strongest abilities as a character
Sonic can release fsmash and shield before you can release fsmash into an active hitbox
Sonic's second portion of uair outranges Luc's dair
Fsmash and dtilt are both punishable on block, Dair kills momentum and can get you punished by bairs. Don't spam it.

 

[F1ZZ]

Advantages over Sonic:

1. He can not kill at low percents which gives use a major advantage due to our aura.

2. We outrange Sonic with every move. With this you should be able to rack up damage fairly quickly.


Stages:

Pick stages with larger blast zones due to Sonic not being able to kill. With this you can rack up damage easy and survive.

Matchup:

I would say 65:35 and at least 60:40.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Main Ways to Beat Sonic:

1. He can not kill at low percents which gives use a major advantage due to our aura.

2. We outrange Sonic with every move. With this you should be able to rack up damage fairly quickly.

How are these ways to beat Sonic?
And as for stages, flat stages like FD and Smashville tend to help Sonic out a lot. In theory (because I still have very little sonic experience) I like Lylat and Yoshi's for nuetrals because all the ridiculousness those stages produce is more likely to hurt his game than Luc's. As for CPs, I'd take Frigate over Luigi's if neither was banned (Luigi's is essentially a flat stage; Frigate is the opposite of a flat stage).

 

[F1ZZ]

Changed my post above.

 

[phi1ny3]

Edit: lol I didn't know about that trick.

 

[Kitamerby]

:\

Sonic's grabgame is one of his strongest abilities as a character
Sonic can release fsmash and shield before you can release fsmash into an active hitbox
Sonic's second portion of uair outranges Luc's dair
Fsmash and dtilt are both punishable on block, Dair kills momentum and can get you punished by bairs. Don't spam it.

You're a killjoy. Looks like the jig is up.

If you actually do need help against Sonic, here's the real deal, I guess. I play Kinzer pretty often, so this should be pretty accurate. Honestly though, if you need help with sonic you suck.

Firstly, learn to tech his Dthrow. It'll really really help in the match-up if you're having trouble against Sonic. If you can't tech it, Sonic has a VERY dangerous tool at his disposal. You should always get a free grab if you tech in place.
Secondly, learn to hit/grab him out of his spin dash. Jabs, ftilt, Dtilt, and Aura Sphere are favorites for me. If he always jumps after hitting your shield with a grounded spin dash, a Nair oos on reaction should take care of that. Once again, if you can't punish Spin Dash, you're in for a VERY annoying fight.
Thirdly, you can dair his dash attack if he hits you. Do this every time he does it until he stops.
Fourthly, always counterpick Yoshi's Isle. He has absolutely no tricks to abuse, and you can hide under the platform and stay safe. Also random platforms popping up prevents gimps.
Fifthly, Fsmash has ******** and VERY deceptive range. Learn it and don't be fooled. Also don't run into charged ones. That may sound like a bit of a no-brainer, but even very high level players fall for the occasional "Hypnosmash."
Sixthly, don't fsmash wildly. Sonic can and will grab anything you do no matter how little lag it has.
Seventhly, DI Sonic's Uthrow TOWARDS SONIC'S BACK. If you DI up, forwards, or anything else, you will fly straight up. If you use a Dair to momentum cancel, you WILL be hit by the spring uair to follow. This actually can be used to your advantage if the Sonic isn't perfect at spacing his uair to beat out your dair, as you can use your dair to kill him off the top in this case, but don't rely on this. Note that he might Fthrow instead if you start DI'ing Uthrows towards Sonic. Fthrow is very fast, and if you are DI'ing towards Sonic while he performs it, once again you will be sent straight up, prime for a Spring Uair kill.
Eighthly, don't ever think "Spring Uair? Are you serious? I'll never fall for that." If you let your guard down, you will. It happens to the best of players.
Ninthly, DI his fair into the stage as fast as you can if he fairs you offstage. Unless he starts it very early, you will be sent towards the stage instead of away.
Tenthly, be careful when landing, or he WILL grab you no matter what you do. Sonic is stupidly fast and can grab anything.
Eleventhly, fair, jabs, ftilt, and Aura sphere are your best friend. Fair will in general beat out most of Sonic's attacks other than maybe Bair. Jabs are good too. Aura Sphere is a really amazing tool against Sonic and should be used often, uncharged and charged.
Twelvthly, Fsmash if he springs too close to the stage. He doesn't autosweetspot and if you're lucky you'll catch him with it as his invincibility ends.
Thirteenthly, if you have to approach Sonic, which you shouldn't, use Fair if it wasn't obvious. It's your best option for approaching Sonic.
Fourteenthly, if he ever uses Homing Attack, punish. Homing Attack is a complete and utter abomination of a move and should be punished whenever used. I like using Aura Sphere if he does it farther away, Usmash if he's locked on, any aerial if you're in the air, or Fsmash if you spotdodge it and he lands in front of you.
Fifteenthly,remember that camping is not supposed to rack on damage itself, but as to force an approach. You can't play keep away with projectiles against Sonic. It just DOESN'T WORK. You're using projectiles to force approach, and jabs, tilts, and aerials for keep-away.
Sixteenthly, it might be good to note that at around 190, Sonic's Uthrow will kill you outright, and that his pummels are the third best in the game bar white pikmin, so you should probably not spend too much time in his grasp, though you may not be able to help it most of the time. Also it is very possible to live to 190 against Sonic if you avoid Fsmash, Bair offstage, and Dsmash.
Seventeenthly, always ban FD. He has a ridiculous amount of supersecret ways to recover on this stage, such as walljumping under the stage to Spin Dash onto the stage, and the stage is just way too flat, giving him tons of free reign to screw with you however he pleases.

Also, courtesy of Malcolm, Malcolm says that the best way to beat Sonic is to roll to the edge and fsmash. Unfortunately, I can't really say I've gotten much success with this strategy because I can't get Fsmash out at the right time to wall Sonic due to him being just plain too **** fast, but Malcolm says that's how Lee ***** him, and that he's done it before to other Sonics and that it makes the Lucario matchup impossible and very very gay.


65:35 Lucario, maybe 6:4 Luc at the very lowest. Sonic is up for a hard fight, but he can win if he tries hard enough.

Seriously though, if you need help with sonic you suck.

Also, sorry Sonic mains. Looks like I just made Lucario even worse for you guys. <<

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

id like to comment that wiigiis mansion is a very viable CP against sonic, i got to 240%+ before anything he did killed me, our survival is more vital than allowing him on a flat stage

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Seriously though, if you need help with sonic you suck.

Clearly you haven't played a good enough Sonic to make you eat those words. A tourney or two in OH ought to fix that.

edit: @hkdonut I'm not arguing that the mansion isn't a good cp because it is, but I think Frigate is more likely to put a Sonic player off balance. That being said, maybe I'm completely wrong.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

Clearly you haven't played a good enough Sonic to make you eat those words. A tourney or two in OH ought to fix that.

edit: @hkdonut I'm not arguing that the mansion isn't a good cp because it is, but I think Frigate is more likely to put a Sonic player off balance. That being said, maybe I'm completely wrong.

;D glad we're not arguing, but yeah i was just saying since mansion has that place where we can live forever it would prove to be as useful as off setting sonic, but i can see where frigate would be good

 

[hichez50]

I missed the start of the sonic disccusion but from reading the last pages I came to the conclusion that sonic sucks only mindgames make him good. But mind games cant be taken for match-ups so technically lucario is better.

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

I missed the start of the sonic disccusion but from reading the last pages I came to the conclusion that sonic sucks only mindgames make him good. But mind games cant be taken for match-ups so technically lucario is better.

would mind games effect players that fight off instinct? >_> yes i dont really think while i play, unless i have a controller in hand i cant tell you how to F-smash, or tilt etc...

 

[Kitamerby]

Clearly you haven't played a good enough Sonic to make you eat those words. A tourney or two in OH ought to fix that.

Yes I have. And because I have, I CAN say those words with confidence.

would mind games effect players that fight off instinct? >_> yes i dont really think while i play, unless i have a controller in hand i cant tell you how to F-smash, or tilt etc...

Mindgames exist because people fight off of instinct. If you constantly fight off of instinct, you'll pull the same punishable stuff over and over, stuff Sonic mains have usually been trained to capitalize on, because they have to, because their character sucks.

;D glad we're not arguing, but yeah i was just saying since mansion has that place where we can live forever it would prove to be as useful as off setting sonic, but i can see where frigate would be good

Honestly, I can't see where Frigate would be good, or Luigi's Mansion. Luigi's Mansion allows for jab locks into fsmash if you miss just one tech, although I guess he can't spinshot past you in that case. Frigate I just can't see at all. Frigate is normally good for Lucario because people can't recover on the right side of the first stage very well. Sonic is very good at recovering on any stage, and especially on Frigate because his Spring goes so high, as well as the fact that he can wall jump back if need be if he misses the platform. Also, his dthrow if he grabs you at certain spots will put you in very bad positions where you will be unable to tech your way out of. It's nothing big, but there are better CPs than both, not that it matters. You can really take him anywhere you want to and win. I personally like Pictochat and Yoshi's because of the large size of the stage, plenty of room to kick him around (in your favor while hindering him because of platforms/drawings), and on Yoshi's that platform lets you hide under it and screw with his approaches, similar to Wario.

 

[hichez50]

would mind games effect players that fight off instinct? >_> yes i dont really think while i play, unless i have a controller in hand i cant tell you how to F-smash, or tilt etc...

When in doubt with lucario use forward anything. ftilt,forward throw, forward smash, and fair are all great.

 

[Chis]

Kita seems like he's the only one who knows what he's talking about.

>_>

 

[Alus]

Clearly you haven't played a good enough Sonic to make you eat those words. A tourney or two in OH ought to fix that.

I love you...

 

[Samuelson]

lol @ Sonic vs Lucario :D

Sonic can't kill Lucario until the late 200's which means that Sonic loses this match by a large margin.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Clearly you haven't played a good enough Sonic to make you eat those words. A tourney or two in OH ought to fix that.

Clearly, you don't realize just who Kitamerby is don't you? (he practically mains him for crying out loud! unless he lets Kinzer use his account then >_< on my self)

seriously I respected sonic even before his rise to mid tier but you just have to realize that Kita is correct, This is a very uphill match for sonic and easy prey for Lucario.

 

[Samuelson]

I just wasted seconds of my life reading your sig...FML

 

[phi1ny3]

Yes I have. And because I have, I CAN say those words with confidence.

Mindgames exist because people fight off of instinct. If you constantly fight off of instinct, you'll pull the same punishable stuff over and over, stuff Sonic mains have usually been trained to capitalize on, because they have to, because their character sucks.

Honestly, I can't see where Frigate would be good, or Luigi's Mansion. Luigi's Mansion allows for jab locks into fsmash if you miss just one tech, although I guess he can't spinshot past you in that case. Frigate I just can't see at all. Frigate is normally good for Lucario because people can't recover on the right side of the first stage very well. Sonic is very good at recovering on any stage, and especially on Frigate because his Spring goes so high, as well as the fact that he can wall jump back if need be if he misses the platform. Also, his dthrow if he grabs you at certain spots will put you in very bad positions where you will be unable to tech your way out of. It's nothing big, but there are better CPs than both, not that it matters. You can really take him anywhere you want to and win. I personally like Pictochat and Yoshi's because of the large size of the stage, plenty of room to kick him around (in your favor while hindering him because of platforms/drawings), and on Yoshi's that platform lets you hide under it and screw with his approaches, similar to Wario.

I honestly do like YI because of its huuuuuge blastzones, especially the vertical one. Many people assume the stage is really bad for lucario merely because of the platform, but if used correctly its just as bad as if it were flat, due to the design and how it's placed.
I don't know too much about the sonic MU, but I suppose our lingering hitbox properties, good priority, and big aura boost from sonic's inability to kill makes this a pretty nasty MU for sonic at the highest levels of play.

 

[Chis]

Well Kita knows A LOT about the match up and isn't theory crafting either.

 

[Kinzer]

Yoshi's Island is Lucario's best neutral stage?

Jeez man, what with like the hard-to-cling-on-to sides/walls/thingimajigs Kita was telling me about and the side blastzones being rather close and a majority of Sonic's kills going that way, I would've thought it was no better than any of the others you had, not to mention Sonic's own trix on that stage.

But hey you know what, it's okay, 'cause it really doesn't matter to me what neutral the matchup starts on, I can work with all of them no problem. I also laugh at any of you who have said 7:3 Lucario's favor, maybe if you were playing scrubs who didn't know anything about controlling Sonic's Speed or busting out mindgames out the wazoo maybe I would agree to that, maybe.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I'd say 60:40, maaaaaaybe 65:35. But the last time I played a sonic was like 5 months ago, so I'll let Kita and DJBrowny take this.

 

[Browny]

lolwut i didnt say anything

However as ive stated multiple times in the past, while I main both characters, my experience fighting as one vs the other is limited

 

[Player-4]

that sonic picture on the front page is scary, it also looks like it has a v*****.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Kita seems like he's the only one who knows what he's talking about.

>_>

Well Kita knows A LOT about the match up and isn't theory crafting either.

Clearly, you don't realize just who Kitamerby is don't you? (he practically mains him for crying out loud! unless he lets Kinzer use his account then >_< on my self)

seriously I respected sonic even before his rise to mid tier but you just have to realize that Kita is correct, This is a very uphill match for sonic and easy prey for Lucario.

Fine Fine Fine you guys win! I am officially bad at this game forever. I promise you a $5 MM if we ever meet at a tourney, Kita (or if anyone else here is up for it).

Oh ya Aurasmash, your first sentence has a double negative. I dislike those.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Lol I fail in grammar class. :D

 

[aeghrur]

Get the kill first.
EZ win from there. =/

 

[D. Disciple]

Where the hell do all these MN smashers come from?

 

[Timbers]

wait why are we praising kita here lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've fought some good Sonics, Shugo was one who knocked me out of pools in Chicago.

I think the main reason I lost that was the fact I didn't understand what Sonic was truly capable of. I didn't lose badly to him, but I think I could have done much better if I learned the match-up better.

Lucario has the tools to make this hard for Sonic, his range and aura boost are the main reasons, we just need to know them well.

 

[CR4SH]

Clearly you haven't played a good enough Sonic to make you eat those words. A tourney or two in OH ought to fix that.

Truer words are hardly said. Listen to fizz, don't **** with OH sonics.

 

[The_Bear735]

God **** all of you who are so ****ing stupid to say that Lucario counters Sonic. I'm not going to go through the parts that I haven't read, but skimming this page makes me /rage.

The MU is 60-40 ish, and nothing better. I laugh at all of you who say he counters Sonic, get ***** by shugo or something.


I think as a general rule of thumb, any of the Lucario mainers here who haven't done offline tourneys and played against people who are better than them need to kindly sit the **** down.

 

[MalcolmM]

Poor Kita....trying to explain an insanely advantadged matchup to ppl who have no real experience vs the character. Giving your input when u have no idea what sonic is capable of and how he works...is absolutely useless. Listen to the guy who plays against sonic all the time....and stop praising your own region's "vastly superior" sonics. His advice sounds stupid, but dumb beats sonic. The character only works against people who think, he is easily destroyed by mindless drones.

 

[Kitamerby]

The matchup is 60:40 if you have limited experience against Sonic. It could even be 55:45 if you have no experience whatsoever. But that's just based on you having no experience, similar to most of Sonic's matchups. <<


If you have complete knowledge of what Sonic is capable of and a bit of experience against the character, I'm really unsure if you can go lower than 65:35 though.


Sonic is the one matchup I don't need to theorycraft. I know this one. =D

 

[D. Disciple]

Poor Kita....trying to explain an insanely advantadged matchup to ppl who have no real experience vs the character. Giving your input when u have no idea what sonic is capable of and how he works...is absolutely useless. Listen to the guy who plays against sonic all the time....and stop praising your own region's "vastly superior" sonics. His advice sounds stupid, but dumb beats sonic. The character only works against people who think, he is easily destroyed by mindless drones.

You should all listen to this guy. He knows what's he talking about, and got our team to 25th in doubles.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I know who Malcom is.
So, let's do stages/ratios, unless the sonic boards themselves have something to say on the MU.

 

[culexus・wau]

Our Notable Counterpicks aren't really heavily bogging down sonic [Frig,Yoshis, Japes, Mansion].Going to a counterpick stage means Sonic can mix up his endless amount of options even more. I firmly believe if
you know sonic well you shouldn't have problems at all on a neutral stage as most of his approaches are stopped by lucario if you know how to deal with them. That being said if you really need to counterpick them somewhere...

Frigate - Sonic is never ever ever ever ever ever going to get screwed by stage flips ever ever as long as he has neutral B available. The 1st state's ledgeless left side doesn't even really effect at all since he rarely recovers to the ledge. :< Furthermore he can close the gap quite well on this stage and I don't see any other any other major advantages besides being able to live longer.

Yoshis - Sonics ban this on me ;-; someone else handle this.

Japes - Sonic will neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr dieeeeee. his spindashes aren't very viable on this stage obviously but he will never get water gimped >_> I've died from his smashes on the side on pretty early percentages for sonic from my experience but it's probably just me slipping on DI d: that being said this forces Aerial approaches from sonic which means an easier time beating out his approaches.

Mansion - Don't. Get. Grabbed. if you do you had better tech that Upthrow, or else your going to eat a lot of damage into a guaranteed move of their choice. Running Upsmash sets up a nice tech chase for sonic as well. higher ceiling doesn't really affect either party seeing that both usually KO from the sides. both parties can potentially live for a very long time.