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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
- Start date
Da-D-Mon-109
Smash Lord
:flame:
My God I hate wolf...
You know how Lucario is one of the few people that can actually do honest comboes with his aerials and stuff? Wolf's Blaster and Reflector go fast enough that he can break our Comboes... half of our ability to fight him goes away... take the potency out of a Snake, and you just get a Belt... Our comboes are our potency, and Wolf makes us his belt. Those 2 attacks are also fast enough that he can use them to set up his own combos, and are good ways to pressure us...
It seems Wolf is only good at back airing someone to approach them... but it works well enough... and unlike Dedede, he is fast enough to do it enough times that it is hard to space, and yet he falls fast enough so he can respond to whatever we throw at him...
His side special lets him warp through certain stage boundaries, so we can't edgehog him too well... and if we try to gimp him, his up special (which seems to be better than Fox's and Falco's) is capable of meteoring us. I don't quite know what can stop it....
Aura Sphere is not too smart in this match... again, he is much faster than he seems, and his reflector comes out like lightning... and he can pretty much pull it out at any second he wants too... only use it if you are almost sure he won't reflect it....
The best thing against Wolf is to get quick seldom quick but hard hits. He might be chain grabable, being a space furry, but getting in close with those strangely formed smashes and side attacks is some times quite a chore... the range of his side smash (although it is a move that can be power-shielded, take advantage of that) is strange, and his downsmash is probably one of his favorite kill moves.... In general, it is easier to take Wolf on in the Air than on the Ground....
I'd prefer just sticking to natural stages that you work best with... I don't know any specific stages that give an advantage either way.... Try some of your more Crazy Ones, like Norfair Rainbow Road, Pokemon Stadium, the Frigate.... This is probably my worst match up. ;.; I hate Wolf so much. He is definitely someone with an advantage on us. Unless there is a game breaking move that I am too stupid to do, I will not accept anything above a 50:50....
In Sumation:
Avoid the DownSmash (Kill Move), Avoid getting Predictable with the Aura Sphere (Mind Game them!), Avoid getting off stage (swings both ways), Avoid getting yourself comboed (Back Air, Blaster, Reflector, Illusion, some grabs)....
Enforce Chain Grabs (Sucks to be a Furry!), Enforce Force Palm Grab (isn't it's range better than a regular grab anyway?), Enforce Powershielding his strange-*** Smashes (leaves him bait to be grabbed), Enforce Aura Sphere Mind Games (at 0 damage, he outprioritizes minispheres, but it's fun making him wonder when the big one will appear), Enforrce Combos (assuming Wolf doesn't litterally break them)....
Advantages and Disadvantages:It's about even... I should check and see when Wolf gets Koed by specific moves and when Lucario gets koed by them.... but they should be around a similar range (although Wolf is heavy and Lucario is medium light)... Wolf has it a little better on the ground, but Lucario has it a little better in the air.... he beats us in a projectile fight, but we might be better at comboing and grabs.... and neither person wants to fall off of the stage at any time....
Counter Pick: Not Battlefield. The Crazier the stage, probably the better...
Of course, my information is probably flawed. I am biased, since Wolf just seems to murder me 24-7. If you guys can contribute anything with a less Emo-ed mindset, that would probably be good.
:flame:
My God I hate wolf...
You know how Lucario is one of the few people that can actually do honest comboes with his aerials and stuff? Wolf's Blaster and Reflector go fast enough that he can break our Comboes... half of our ability to fight him goes away... take the potency out of a Snake, and you just get a Belt... Our comboes are our potency, and Wolf makes us his belt. Those 2 attacks are also fast enough that he can use them to set up his own combos, and are good ways to pressure us...
It seems Wolf is only good at back airing someone to approach them... but it works well enough... and unlike Dedede, he is fast enough to do it enough times that it is hard to space, and yet he falls fast enough so he can respond to whatever we throw at him...
His side special lets him warp through certain stage boundaries, so we can't edgehog him too well... and if we try to gimp him, his up special (which seems to be better than Fox's and Falco's) is capable of meteoring us. I don't quite know what can stop it....
Aura Sphere is not too smart in this match... again, he is much faster than he seems, and his reflector comes out like lightning... and he can pretty much pull it out at any second he wants too... only use it if you are almost sure he won't reflect it....
The best thing against Wolf is to get quick seldom quick but hard hits. He might be chain grabable, being a space furry, but getting in close with those strangely formed smashes and side attacks is some times quite a chore... the range of his side smash (although it is a move that can be power-shielded, take advantage of that) is strange, and his downsmash is probably one of his favorite kill moves.... In general, it is easier to take Wolf on in the Air than on the Ground....
I'd prefer just sticking to natural stages that you work best with... I don't know any specific stages that give an advantage either way.... Try some of your more Crazy Ones, like Norfair Rainbow Road, Pokemon Stadium, the Frigate.... This is probably my worst match up. ;.; I hate Wolf so much. He is definitely someone with an advantage on us. Unless there is a game breaking move that I am too stupid to do, I will not accept anything above a 50:50....
In Sumation:
Avoid the DownSmash (Kill Move), Avoid getting Predictable with the Aura Sphere (Mind Game them!), Avoid getting off stage (swings both ways), Avoid getting yourself comboed (Back Air, Blaster, Reflector, Illusion, some grabs)....
Enforce Chain Grabs (Sucks to be a Furry!), Enforce Force Palm Grab (isn't it's range better than a regular grab anyway?), Enforce Powershielding his strange-*** Smashes (leaves him bait to be grabbed), Enforce Aura Sphere Mind Games (at 0 damage, he outprioritizes minispheres, but it's fun making him wonder when the big one will appear), Enforrce Combos (assuming Wolf doesn't litterally break them)....
Advantages and Disadvantages:It's about even... I should check and see when Wolf gets Koed by specific moves and when Lucario gets koed by them.... but they should be around a similar range (although Wolf is heavy and Lucario is medium light)... Wolf has it a little better on the ground, but Lucario has it a little better in the air.... he beats us in a projectile fight, but we might be better at comboing and grabs.... and neither person wants to fall off of the stage at any time....
Counter Pick: Not Battlefield. The Crazier the stage, probably the better...
Of course, my information is probably flawed. I am biased, since Wolf just seems to murder me 24-7. If you guys can contribute anything with a less Emo-ed mindset, that would probably be good.
:flame:
iRJi
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,423
You know, that would have been a good summary of you didn't feel like you were going to die every time wolf attacks you lol. I am only messing with you though, from the looks of it you seem to have a good grasp of the matchup, but you panic and it messes with your ability to react back. Read closely what you just posted, and then examine what you can do to get around those flaws. ^_^
I still will be posted my summary of it later. Just been busy with a few things. xP
tekkie
Smash Master
If only.
I third Lucario, so I can at least tell you to chase Wolf offstage. Also, Lucario's dair > Wolf's uair.
The big yellow post seems pretty accurate. I'd call it about neutral myself as well, maybe 55:45 wolf.
Wolf can jumpshine OoS, which does great against fair > *insert aerial here*. If you can powershield wolf's attacks consistently, you'll have a much easier time in the matchup. BAS (is that what you guys call them, baby aura spheres? idk, I tried) annoy me, especially if you randomly throw them out of a SH, but that's just cause I'm always SHing bairs >_> You might want to do that if wolf is a good distance away, to limit his ability to approach with SHs. Try to get wolf to use his fsmash after blocking your fsmash, I'm not sure if it should even work, but if they're frustrated enough they'll definitely try, and if you spaced fsmash well it's an easy punish.
Wolf can jumpshine OoS, which does great against fair > *insert aerial here*. If you can powershield wolf's attacks consistently, you'll have a much easier time in the matchup. BAS (is that what you guys call them, baby aura spheres? idk, I tried) annoy me, especially if you randomly throw them out of a SH, but that's just cause I'm always SHing bairs >_> You might want to do that if wolf is a good distance away, to limit his ability to approach with SHs. Try to get wolf to use his fsmash after blocking your fsmash, I'm not sure if it should even work, but if they're frustrated enough they'll definitely try, and if you spaced fsmash well it's an easy punish.
hough123
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2007
- Messages
- 627
The Wolf boards this even, but a lot of Lucarios have trouble with the match-up., and with good reason. Wolf is a decent character all around. He is quick, has combos, and a good kill move. The only thing sticking out with him is his recovery, but I'll get to that later.
First off, they are very afraid of our aura boost, and will try to kill us as soon as possible with their Dsmash.We can outrange their Dsmash though, so bait it and punish. They hate missing Dsmash, and are obsessed with keeping it fresh as to kill us soon, so this will tick some people off. From their discussion, I picked up that you can fully charge an AS, then sit on it for a long time to to make the Wolf go insane. You can also surprise the Wolf with a quick Uthrow, but you can't chain it without taking a serious risk. After the Uthrow, you can use the throw of your choice. Wolfs believe that our recovery is highly gimpable, so they don't worry about a gimp game. Although this is slightly true, our recovery is still much better than theirs, so gimping is a possibility. Our fair out prioritizes his Up B, so swat his feeble attempt of a recovery away when he, (Rarely), uses it. Wolf's Side B is faster than our ES, so if he is in range DO NOT EXTREME HOG, you will get gimped yourself. IIRC his Up B is still faster than ours, but is inferior to his Side B in terms of height to length ratios. Most of Wolf's attacks come out faster than ours, so watch out for that. Wolfs may also try to play a "Hit and Run" game against you, although I believe this is rare as they prefer to play their normal game against us. Lucario needs the air in this match-up, as a good air game could lead off of the stage where Wolf can't recover from.
As for stages;
For Us- Wolfs dislike PS1; the area under the ledge hurts their recovery, and the changing of the stage can disrupt their game. They'll most likely strike it though =\
For them- They'll use Corneria against us if it isn't banned, as their Dsmash will kill VERY early here, strike it if it isn't outright banned in the first place. YI is also o good stage for them. It focuses heavily on ground games, and Wolf can't be gimped here, giving Wolf a decent advantage against us. This is what you should stick to striking if Corneria is banned.
Overall, I'd call it a 50:50 match-up.
First off, they are very afraid of our aura boost, and will try to kill us as soon as possible with their Dsmash.We can outrange their Dsmash though, so bait it and punish. They hate missing Dsmash, and are obsessed with keeping it fresh as to kill us soon, so this will tick some people off. From their discussion, I picked up that you can fully charge an AS, then sit on it for a long time to to make the Wolf go insane. You can also surprise the Wolf with a quick Uthrow, but you can't chain it without taking a serious risk. After the Uthrow, you can use the throw of your choice. Wolfs believe that our recovery is highly gimpable, so they don't worry about a gimp game. Although this is slightly true, our recovery is still much better than theirs, so gimping is a possibility. Our fair out prioritizes his Up B, so swat his feeble attempt of a recovery away when he, (Rarely), uses it. Wolf's Side B is faster than our ES, so if he is in range DO NOT EXTREME HOG, you will get gimped yourself. IIRC his Up B is still faster than ours, but is inferior to his Side B in terms of height to length ratios. Most of Wolf's attacks come out faster than ours, so watch out for that. Wolfs may also try to play a "Hit and Run" game against you, although I believe this is rare as they prefer to play their normal game against us. Lucario needs the air in this match-up, as a good air game could lead off of the stage where Wolf can't recover from.
As for stages;
For Us- Wolfs dislike PS1; the area under the ledge hurts their recovery, and the changing of the stage can disrupt their game. They'll most likely strike it though =\
For them- They'll use Corneria against us if it isn't banned, as their Dsmash will kill VERY early here, strike it if it isn't outright banned in the first place. YI is also o good stage for them. It focuses heavily on ground games, and Wolf can't be gimped here, giving Wolf a decent advantage against us. This is what you should stick to striking if Corneria is banned.
Overall, I'd call it a 50:50 match-up.
OK, some minor corrections:
- Lucario should never die at 110% against Wolf dsmash. I play alot against a Diddy player and he survives it to around 130% - and Lucario dies later than Diddy
- Lylat Cruise isn't that bad for Wolf. Wolf players hate it because it's bad in his harder match-up's like D3 or MK
- Wolfs blaster isn't fast enough to beat any combo. Idk why somebody would mention that...
I really hate giving numbers to match-ups but if I had to give one I'd say 5/5 or 55/45 Wolf. I feel like Wolf has a slight advantage in this match-up since Lucario has nothing abusable against Wolf (like a CG or something) but Wolf does very well in the air against all characters and he has a solid advantage on the ground. The biggest problem for Lucario is probably approaching Wolf since Wolfs bair/retreating fair beats Lucarios aerial approaches. On the ground spaced ftilts and jabs will make it hard for Lucario to approach - especially since Lucarios options are rather limited on the ground. You have to be very unpredictable and randomly use Aura Spheres and grabs at the right time...
Anyways here are tips on the match-up.
- If you face a fsmash happy Wolf you should consider yourself lucky. Fullhop dair will **** it. Overall Wolf shouldn't use fsmash a lot in this match-up. If you get hit by fsmash a lot you play the match-up wrong.
- Always be careful about throwing out a fully charged AS. Don't do it when you have high % or else he'll shine it back for an easy KO. If you're below 70% you can almost always use it, as long as you can survive it it's not a big problem if he manages to shine it back right in time.
- Don't spam your dair. Fair OoS will punish it badly and it's one of Wolfs best moves. It will hit you when you're above him and has decent KO power - never underrate it.
- When you approach always mix up aerials with ground moves and grabs. Using many aerials in a row is too predictable and Wolf will easily beat it with bair or retreating fair. On the other hand you can't rely on using only ground moves either as it's even easier for Wolf to beat them. If you're unpredictable you can find ways to get through his zoning tools.
- Watch out for the shine. It will not only break your comboes but it will also combo into AAA if he hits you while you're in the air. So comboes like fair -> nair are risky. Utilt comboes into other utilts for a while though and Wolf can't break out of it.
- Try to get him to the ledge. Good Wolfs always try to stay in the middle of the stage since it's very easy for them to control the stage from that position due to his high aerial mobility and his bair. Juggling him is difficult as he is mobile in the air and has the shine to stop juggle attempts but ledge traps can hurt him. If he's close to the ledge (with the ledge behind him) you have many options. Charged dsmash, jab, Pivot grab or SH Nair can be very good moves depending on his reaction.
I don't think Lucario has any particular CP stage here although FD seems to be a good choice. Living long is always good for Lucario and FD is the best stage in that regard.
- Lucario should never die at 110% against Wolf dsmash. I play alot against a Diddy player and he survives it to around 130% - and Lucario dies later than Diddy
- Lylat Cruise isn't that bad for Wolf. Wolf players hate it because it's bad in his harder match-up's like D3 or MK
- Wolfs blaster isn't fast enough to beat any combo. Idk why somebody would mention that...
I really hate giving numbers to match-ups but if I had to give one I'd say 5/5 or 55/45 Wolf. I feel like Wolf has a slight advantage in this match-up since Lucario has nothing abusable against Wolf (like a CG or something) but Wolf does very well in the air against all characters and he has a solid advantage on the ground. The biggest problem for Lucario is probably approaching Wolf since Wolfs bair/retreating fair beats Lucarios aerial approaches. On the ground spaced ftilts and jabs will make it hard for Lucario to approach - especially since Lucarios options are rather limited on the ground. You have to be very unpredictable and randomly use Aura Spheres and grabs at the right time...
Anyways here are tips on the match-up.
- If you face a fsmash happy Wolf you should consider yourself lucky. Fullhop dair will **** it. Overall Wolf shouldn't use fsmash a lot in this match-up. If you get hit by fsmash a lot you play the match-up wrong.
- Always be careful about throwing out a fully charged AS. Don't do it when you have high % or else he'll shine it back for an easy KO. If you're below 70% you can almost always use it, as long as you can survive it it's not a big problem if he manages to shine it back right in time.
- Don't spam your dair. Fair OoS will punish it badly and it's one of Wolfs best moves. It will hit you when you're above him and has decent KO power - never underrate it.
- When you approach always mix up aerials with ground moves and grabs. Using many aerials in a row is too predictable and Wolf will easily beat it with bair or retreating fair. On the other hand you can't rely on using only ground moves either as it's even easier for Wolf to beat them. If you're unpredictable you can find ways to get through his zoning tools.
- Watch out for the shine. It will not only break your comboes but it will also combo into AAA if he hits you while you're in the air. So comboes like fair -> nair are risky. Utilt comboes into other utilts for a while though and Wolf can't break out of it.
- Try to get him to the ledge. Good Wolfs always try to stay in the middle of the stage since it's very easy for them to control the stage from that position due to his high aerial mobility and his bair. Juggling him is difficult as he is mobile in the air and has the shine to stop juggle attempts but ledge traps can hurt him. If he's close to the ledge (with the ledge behind him) you have many options. Charged dsmash, jab, Pivot grab or SH Nair can be very good moves depending on his reaction.
I don't think Lucario has any particular CP stage here although FD seems to be a good choice. Living long is always good for Lucario and FD is the best stage in that regard.
hough123
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2007
- Messages
- 627
Thanks for the correction, I've edited my post with your post in mind
FD doesn't seem like a good CP judging by what you said about them staying close to the middle of the stage, FD's specialty. Also, PS1 is a decent counterpick for Lucario IMO.
FD doesn't seem like a good CP judging by what you said about them staying close to the middle of the stage, FD's specialty. Also, PS1 is a decent counterpick for Lucario IMO.
arrancar 18
Smash Cadet
o just saying hi im the new lucario 2 the boards well kinda
Fizzle_Boy
Smash Ace
I hate Lylat because Wolf can't recover well after getting hit offstage, similar to Lucario, and he can't scar his way back on. It's not that bad for him, but it's definitely no picnic to use wolf on that stage.
Browny
Smash Hater
remember the idea isnt to outright gimp wolf. you simply force him to land over the stage, and feed him full charge aura spheres in the landing lag.
dont even bother with his <100% get up attack. fsmash him at the edge if hes over 100% and its all good (that might be the wrong way around, either way fsmash owns one of his get-up possibilities)
dont even bother with his <100% get up attack. fsmash him at the edge if hes over 100% and its all good
(that might be the wrong way around, either way fsmash owns one of his get-up possibilities)
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Just a note, IIRC, Wolf lagless fair (basically fullhop fair) is very useful, especially on places like BF, where if performed correctly, will hardly ever get landing lag on both platforms and the stage.
nair crossovers, bair walling, and blaster can all be tricky to deal with.
Imo, this is going to be a tricky "guess the move" game, and PS will definitely be an order of the day, as more close range moves like jab/ftilt will get nullified if used properly.
This is one of those weird matchups where I feel there's use for both BAS and AS. As long as you don't get predictable (or you can mindgame them to reflecting BAS to divert an aerial approach, but that's if they were born yesterday) you'll stay pretty good from the shine and won't have much of a problem with it. Wolf is really really good onstage, lots of nice control game stuff. I would also advise throws, particularly throws that give you nice damage in the beginning (I prefer dthrow), because the chances of actually starting a string off (this too is also difficult, since they can shine) is better, and as is punishing.
blaster is obviously pressure stuff, it does have some nice properties.
I kind of love lucario bair and dair in this matchup (and to an extent, uair) most of these can pseudo-string (basically follow into each other kind of well) on a character like wolf in mid percents (ex. bair -> jump aerial depending on DI). This is actually kind of a win-win situation, it's enough time that they usually can't get out if you follow their DI, it's just a small window of time so that retaliation on wolf's part is risky, and best of all, it sets up for a nice gimp situation, considering these all do nice knockback and you should be considering a offstage game at about mid percent anyways.
lucario fsmash is pretty decent, I like actually all of lucario's tilts (ftilt for pressure and "catching" a landing opponent, dtilt to set up a trap, etc.).
Imo japes could be decent (though it's not like you don't have to worry about a control game), FD, and Lylat are my options.
I would shy away from BF, Pirate ship (more or less). Good control, expansive stage ground, and good platform stuff for wolf since lucario's platform game isn't entirely top tier.
nair crossovers, bair walling, and blaster can all be tricky to deal with.
Imo, this is going to be a tricky "guess the move" game, and PS will definitely be an order of the day, as more close range moves like jab/ftilt will get nullified if used properly.
This is one of those weird matchups where I feel there's use for both BAS and AS. As long as you don't get predictable (or you can mindgame them to reflecting BAS to divert an aerial approach, but that's if they were born yesterday) you'll stay pretty good from the shine and won't have much of a problem with it. Wolf is really really good onstage, lots of nice control game stuff. I would also advise throws, particularly throws that give you nice damage in the beginning (I prefer dthrow), because the chances of actually starting a string off (this too is also difficult, since they can shine) is better, and as is punishing.
blaster is obviously pressure stuff, it does have some nice properties.
I kind of love lucario bair and dair in this matchup (and to an extent, uair) most of these can pseudo-string (basically follow into each other kind of well) on a character like wolf in mid percents (ex. bair -> jump aerial depending on DI). This is actually kind of a win-win situation, it's enough time that they usually can't get out if you follow their DI, it's just a small window of time so that retaliation on wolf's part is risky, and best of all, it sets up for a nice gimp situation, considering these all do nice knockback and you should be considering a offstage game at about mid percent anyways.
lucario fsmash is pretty decent, I like actually all of lucario's tilts (ftilt for pressure and "catching" a landing opponent, dtilt to set up a trap, etc.).
Imo japes could be decent (though it's not like you don't have to worry about a control game), FD, and Lylat are my options.
I would shy away from BF, Pirate ship (more or less). Good control, expansive stage ground, and good platform stuff for wolf since lucario's platform game isn't entirely top tier.
Aurasmash14
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 1,540
This is one of the weirder matchups with the two being similar in stats and in the actual fight Momentum cant be immediately controlled. (heck theyre even species related.)
I agree with Phil. Tilts are useful here. Dtilt at modest damage springs wolf up enough distance to avoid the shine but hit with ftilt. , going outright aggro is (obviously) not a good idea. we also arent fast enough to keep up with wolf so dodging in and out would be good. his range is good enough to make Luc a bit nervous so retreat properly. off stage is one of his weak points. but that flash is fast. dont get edgehogged.
I dont think the shine cuts off hopes of AS. its still viable just dont ever fire a FCAS on wolf if he isnt busy with lag or something.
make him pay if you avoid the dsmash. Dair works fine if done before the move ends.
Fsmash is still not that dependable in this match except maybe to kill of wolf when he's recovering.
I like both pokemon stadiums for this match. the changing ground can mess with wolf's tactics more than ours.
of course i might just be repeating what the others have said and this might need corrections but i didnt read the other posts yet lol.
I agree with Phil. Tilts are useful here. Dtilt at modest damage springs wolf up enough distance to avoid the shine but hit with ftilt. , going outright aggro is (obviously) not a good idea. we also arent fast enough to keep up with wolf so dodging in and out would be good. his range is good enough to make Luc a bit nervous so retreat properly. off stage is one of his weak points. but that flash is fast. dont get edgehogged.
I dont think the shine cuts off hopes of AS. its still viable just dont ever fire a FCAS on wolf if he isnt busy with lag or something.
make him pay if you avoid the dsmash. Dair works fine if done before the move ends.
Fsmash is still not that dependable in this match except maybe to kill of wolf when he's recovering.
I like both pokemon stadiums for this match. the changing ground can mess with wolf's tactics more than ours.
of course i might just be repeating what the others have said and this might need corrections but i didnt read the other posts yet lol.
Timbers
check me out
wolf can autocancel fairs out of shorthops
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen if the Fair actually hits something. The hitlag seems to prolong the attack.
Uthrow can chaingrab Wolf at low percents. It gives around 25%, I think.
Fizzle_Boy
Smash Ace
^Wrong ^
Wolf's fair will still auto cancel.
Timbers
check me out
Are you sure he can be chained? Uthrow gives minimal hitstun and Wolf's shine has invincibility on frame 1.
I don't play Wolfs often, and I use uthrow even less, so I'm not entirely certain.
Scinn
The Fluffiest
the u throw chain on wolf it goes till 30% Before it knocks him too far to do it again but is able to use down b or if you don't grab just right jump out at 25% to get out of it. (forgive me for giving a poor explanation)
EDIT: also I am ready to take the lucario boards more seriously now, while back I took this as a joke. (did not believe in match ups just saw it as a way to get post count up.)
EDIT: also I am ready to take the lucario boards more seriously now, while back I took this as a joke. (did not believe in match ups just saw it as a way to get post count up.)
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I'm not sure, but that's what I've observed. I use Wolf in friendlies because he's fun. I don't think he has time to jump after a short-hop fair either.
Timbers
check me out
I'm really skeptical about the uthrow stuff. lol.
He does have time to sh fair. Why do you have to argue it lol, just go test it
He does have time to sh fair. Why do you have to argue it lol, just go test it
Slido
Smash Cadet
EDIT: Ignore post, I'm a silly man.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Time to sh fair from what? the throw?
Timbers
check me out
just..sh fair, and being able to land laglessly.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Wolf can shine out of the chaingrab.
Alus
Smash Champion
Can you wait for the shine/fair to happen...shield it and U-tilt? Or can they properly retreat/ too fast etc.?
Not that i approve of the U-throw "Chaingrab" or anything...
Not that i approve of the U-throw "Chaingrab" or anything...
Timbers
check me out
The point is if they can shine it that puts you on the defensive, and it pretty much becomes a guessing game. If you throw a shield up Wolf gets away easily with his second jump.
G-Beast
Smash Ace
then this becomes something like a tech chase, yes? if wolf suspects you will try to grab again but you put up your shield, he will get grabbed. if not... well he can jump away if you shield but if you for the grab then wolf gets chained
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Just so you know guys, I tested the "CG", and it is officially a tech chase, however, it's only a matter of how long you hold the shield, he can't jump out of it even if you do regular shield grab, but if he shines, you'll have to hold you shield for a little longer. Unlike what has been said here, you can get him before he jumps if you do a quick shield grab. Now here's another interesting fact from testing: theoretically, you could get this frame perfect with the shield grab and absorb his shine while instantly grabbing him. The only problem is that it is very frame specific, like marth spiking MK out of air release specific (that's one frame of error). I haven't tested what ports will do to affect this, but so far, we have an official tech chase on wolf. Also, wolf has to time the shine, he can mash downB until after the third grab.
Timbers
check me out
Call me stubborn but I don't think it's worth the effort of tech chasing for a whole 3% and no trap.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
If you somehow got frame perfect or something I'd see this working but this doesn't seem to have much reward over plain finding an alternative.
btw, it's a little better than guessing, you can still do an "instant shield grab" to stop the jumping effect, but it's still the same effect in essence, not a very amazing tech chase, except a wicked mind/conditioning game to make him throw out his reflector for punish after doing two or three throws.
tl;dr didn't look at all the aspects, but basically this thing is going to be situational more than anything else.
btw, it's a little better than guessing, you can still do an "instant shield grab" to stop the jumping effect, but it's still the same effect in essence, not a very amazing tech chase, except a wicked mind/conditioning game to make him throw out his reflector for punish after doing two or three throws.
tl;dr didn't look at all the aspects, but basically this thing is going to be situational more than anything else.
hough123
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2007
- Messages
- 627
Could you? Your opinion holds a lot of weight, and I'd like to see what you think =)
The only reason we're so exited is because of an uber situational 0-25% chaingrab on Wolf
At least my research was helpful for SOMETHING
iRJi
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,423
Ok, I typed one up real fast xD. Here we go.
Matchup on wolf.
This is the character that in my honest opinion is the most even matchup for Lucario. He is not to hard, but also he is not so easy. Wolf packs a punch as well as speed when he is on the stage. For the most part wolf will be using his Bair for spacing as well as approaching. That move alone is hard for Lucario to surpass as it deals a good amount of damage even when it gets stale. The one thing that wolf has that not a lot of characters in the game can get out of is the jab > FP combo. Wolf drops too fast and can react and hit you if you try this, so I wouldn’t advise using it as much for this matchup. Also wolf is unable to be chain-grabbed by FP. As if comes to AS, wolf has a reflector that comes out relatively early, and to add onto it he has invincibility frames from frame 1 ion the move. Only use the AS if wolf is completely open on stage. My setup for AS normally goes to wolf when he is off stage. Wolf has a pretty bad recovery, and it is gimpable as well. If you were to shoot AS while he was trying to come back to the stage, he has limited options. He can choose to reflect it, but wolf drops like a rock and then would have to recover after. He can air dodge but faces the same fate. What to do is to force him intone of those options and then punish him for it.
A lot of people are afraid if Wolfs Side-B recovery. It is fast, but it still falls into the same problem as fox and falco. That problem would be that there is only 3 stages of the move. Fox and falco have the illusion (Side-B) that has 3 different forms.
1) The first form is that fox and falco goes max distance, but then falls near the end of the spot where the move ends.
2) The 2nd version is the same as the first, but fox and falco get a power slide effect. Meaning that they slide out of the side-B and continue.
3) The last form of fox and falcos Side B is the shortened distance one, where they cut 1/3 of the range of Side B.
Wolf has the same thing as fox in falco, except he only has the first effect and the 2nd effect I just listed above. To bait, measure, and punish his Side-B recovery is easier then move people think, just need to practice it more.
In close range combat Wolf pretty much beats you out. I would like to note that he is one of the few characters in the game who can also punish you Fsmash at max range. The move he would use for that is his Side smash which pretty much gets the same distance as out Fsmash, so beware throwing this move idiotically. In the air however, Wolf loses. You fair will outrange his fair if he trys to approach with it, and (someone test thing, because I am about to say something I am not sure about) His Bair can be beat out by our fair, or if not beat out trade hits.
The one thing that wolf has an issue with is that Our Fair to Nair combo works on him for a long time before he gets knocked too far for it to combo anymore. So this combo should decently be utilized into your game for this matchup.
I think what I am about to say is the most important thing in this matchup. You must utilize your ground game, as well as your air game properly in terms of mixing up your play style to keep wolf guessing. This may seem like a "Duh, Why wouldn't you do that anyway" and here is the reason whyWolfs laser makes a perfect anti aerial tool on Lucario. You need to have a strong ground game as well as a good air game to win this, and you need to play passive/aggressive the whole match. Playing too passive will have wolf run circles on you, but playing too aggressive is also not the smartest idea for the fact that his weight makes it a bit easier to drop out of lucario’s combos. Simply wait for him to throw a move you are in range to punish, and then capitalize on it until wolf recovers from his mistake. From that point just recycle and repeat.
For this matchup, as I already said at the beginning, is a 50/50. There is no less for the matchup, as well as no more.
Update: I also come to realize that there has been testing on wolf about an Uthrow Chaingrab. If it is true then make sure you utilize in your game, but also keep in mind that for the last grab to finish with the most powerful throw you have at the current moment. =]
Edit2: Also timbers, don't forget to add the numbers on the matchup chart ^_^
Matchup on wolf.
This is the character that in my honest opinion is the most even matchup for Lucario. He is not to hard, but also he is not so easy. Wolf packs a punch as well as speed when he is on the stage. For the most part wolf will be using his Bair for spacing as well as approaching. That move alone is hard for Lucario to surpass as it deals a good amount of damage even when it gets stale. The one thing that wolf has that not a lot of characters in the game can get out of is the jab > FP combo. Wolf drops too fast and can react and hit you if you try this, so I wouldn’t advise using it as much for this matchup. Also wolf is unable to be chain-grabbed by FP. As if comes to AS, wolf has a reflector that comes out relatively early, and to add onto it he has invincibility frames from frame 1 ion the move. Only use the AS if wolf is completely open on stage. My setup for AS normally goes to wolf when he is off stage. Wolf has a pretty bad recovery, and it is gimpable as well. If you were to shoot AS while he was trying to come back to the stage, he has limited options. He can choose to reflect it, but wolf drops like a rock and then would have to recover after. He can air dodge but faces the same fate. What to do is to force him intone of those options and then punish him for it.
A lot of people are afraid if Wolfs Side-B recovery. It is fast, but it still falls into the same problem as fox and falco. That problem would be that there is only 3 stages of the move. Fox and falco have the illusion (Side-B) that has 3 different forms.
1) The first form is that fox and falco goes max distance, but then falls near the end of the spot where the move ends.
2) The 2nd version is the same as the first, but fox and falco get a power slide effect. Meaning that they slide out of the side-B and continue.
3) The last form of fox and falcos Side B is the shortened distance one, where they cut 1/3 of the range of Side B.
Wolf has the same thing as fox in falco, except he only has the first effect and the 2nd effect I just listed above. To bait, measure, and punish his Side-B recovery is easier then move people think, just need to practice it more.
In close range combat Wolf pretty much beats you out. I would like to note that he is one of the few characters in the game who can also punish you Fsmash at max range. The move he would use for that is his Side smash which pretty much gets the same distance as out Fsmash, so beware throwing this move idiotically. In the air however, Wolf loses. You fair will outrange his fair if he trys to approach with it, and (someone test thing, because I am about to say something I am not sure about) His Bair can be beat out by our fair, or if not beat out trade hits.
The one thing that wolf has an issue with is that Our Fair to Nair combo works on him for a long time before he gets knocked too far for it to combo anymore. So this combo should decently be utilized into your game for this matchup.
I think what I am about to say is the most important thing in this matchup. You must utilize your ground game, as well as your air game properly in terms of mixing up your play style to keep wolf guessing. This may seem like a "Duh, Why wouldn't you do that anyway" and here is the reason whyWolfs laser makes a perfect anti aerial tool on Lucario. You need to have a strong ground game as well as a good air game to win this, and you need to play passive/aggressive the whole match. Playing too passive will have wolf run circles on you, but playing too aggressive is also not the smartest idea for the fact that his weight makes it a bit easier to drop out of lucario’s combos. Simply wait for him to throw a move you are in range to punish, and then capitalize on it until wolf recovers from his mistake. From that point just recycle and repeat.
For this matchup, as I already said at the beginning, is a 50/50. There is no less for the matchup, as well as no more.
Update: I also come to realize that there has been testing on wolf about an Uthrow Chaingrab. If it is true then make sure you utilize in your game, but also keep in mind that for the last grab to finish with the most powerful throw you have at the current moment. =]
Edit2: Also timbers, don't forget to add the numbers on the matchup chart ^_^
hough123
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2007
- Messages
- 627
Wow, you need to write about more characters O.o
Yeah, 50:50 seems to be a common number for Wolf.
iRJi
Smash Champion
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- Sep 9, 2008
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- 2,423
I normally do lol, It was just that I took time off from the boards a while back, and when I got back i got lazy and just left everything alone. Don't worry though, i will be helping with the remainder of the matchups from this point as long as nothing comes up. lol.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Close range fighting Wolf sucks, his attacks come out faster and have the enough range to apply pressure. Mid range is where it's at.
I like Lylat and Frigate against Wolf, anyone else?
I like Lylat and Frigate against Wolf, anyone else?
Timbers
check me out
Wolf is better really anywhere in this matchup lol. The ground he easily outspaces/outspeeds you and his bair outranges the fair (seminote to RJ) and also has that impressive aerial movement to weave effectively. It's just really easy to get the ball rolling on Wolf because like all of his moves (bar bair) are easy to set up on, and none of his aerials are that impressive or threatening when forced on the defensive.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
The "and" clause threw me for a bit. You mean that even though his aerials are impressive for transitions, with the exception of bair, they aren't great for defense? I'm sure that's what you mean.
Timbers
check me out
It's like the same with DK.
His aerials don't break combos very well so he's forced to take passive measures to escape. Abuse that knowledge.
Be aware of his shine though.
His aerials don't break combos very well so he's forced to take passive measures to escape. Abuse that knowledge.
Be aware of his shine though.