Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[rehab]

Picking another character does not hurt the metagame at all. At all. People switch characters all the time, in every game ever. It's entirely their prerogative, and picking a bad character for the situation is your own curse.

 

[Maleboocado]

Planking isn't a defensive maneuver, it is a stalling maneuver. It's just a character (AKA MK) chanting "Haha you can't hit me" while dropping off then regrabbing the edge, over and over and over again. .

False. It is stalling, not planking. IMO, planking is "prevent certain methods of approaching and hitting while you are in a [very] safe position" (like spamming), while stalling is "prevent ANY contact between both players in order to keep your stock or %'s advantage".

 

[Sukai]

Picking another character does not hurt the metagame at all. At all. People switch characters all the time, in every game ever. It's entirely their prerogative, and picking a bad character for the situation is your own curse.

If you read correctly, you'd see that I was fine with someone picking a different character.
What hurts the metagame is the alienation of a handful of characters because of one single overused and overly effective tactic in tournament play.

 

[rehab]

That's just it: That does not hurt the metagame. If those characters are screwed, it's no biggy at all.

 

[Sukai]

That's just it: That does not hurt the metagame. If those characters are screwed, it's no biggy at all.

I dare you to elaborate on that claim, or you lose all credibility here.

 

[Matador]

If you get far enough out of the range for Sonic's neutral B to register you, which everybody can jump high enough to do, he homes down towards the blast zone

....Not the point...

Pick another character.....
Pick another character.........
.......
..............
There something about that phrase that rolls off the tongue with an infuriating sensation.

Why don't you just say, "Remove what little tournament diversity that remains in smash."
Ideal to get across planking, but is in no way fair or productive.

Not every character can remain viable. More than half of the cast already isn't. If Planking makes this amount smaller but still more than just one character, there's no need for a ban. There's still enough diversity to keep things competitive.

Planking is hard to get around, possible, but not very probable, same thing applies to wobbling, and last time I checked, that's banned.

You knew as soon as you typed it that there was something wrong with this statement. Wobbling was never universally banned. Just at certain tourneys.

The point of this is that possibility and/or probability of escape or "getting around it" is not taken into account when banning something.
What does[b/] determine what gets banned/limited is it's overall effectiveness.
If a move is too effective that the metagame begins to revolve around that one move as a base for victory, that move will be taken into consideration for being banned/limited.
An SBR member told me this himself.

Too bad Planking doesn't do that. There are plenty of characters that can prevent it. Only characters like Peach and Falco still have no answers to it.

It's been long proven that planking is an effective move, that can even win tournaments.
People play to win, there's no refuting that.
So they will do what it takes to win, and you can't go wrong with planking.
Do the math.

This isn't new. Why do you think people camp? Same principle.

Now, I need to address this "pick another character" bull****.
When reading, take into account the effectiveness of planking.
Planking can win matches, too true.
Now in a setting full of people who play to win, they're gonna plank.
You're character cannot handle planking very well. You try, fail, next match starts.
Knowing your opponent will plank when the going gets tough, you're going to pick a character who can deal with it.
Now thats fine and all, having a pocket character to handle the things your main cannot, but this alienates a handful of characters from tournament play.
I don't care what anyone says, that's not productive, to the metagame or to the community.
The basic reason why planking hurts the metagame is because every character can do it.
It's not something that's particularly esoteric, it universal, but same time, it's effectiveness is high, enough to win a match.
Granted if it wasn't universal, it would be an even bigger issue to handle, but at least it wouldn't control the metagame as much as if it was universal.
Just limit it, it's a viable option to win, but it shouldn't be abused.

Every character CANT Plank. Only a few characters can even do it semi-effectively. The only characters that do it well enough that people can legitimately ***** about it are MK, ROB and Pit. Everyone else shouldn't even be discussed. If you can't find a way around their spam, there's something wrong.

 

[rehab]

It's a silly example, that's all. People bring it up as a stalling example, yet it doesn't even work against anybody, and that's weird.

I dare you to elaborate on that claim, or you lose all credibility here.

What's to elaborate on? Smash characters don't have a claim to being balanced. Lots of characters are made bad by lots of things, and now edge camping is one of them. So a couple more characters are shaved off the list people are actually willing to play, because they don't want to deal with hardcore ledge campers putting them in a crap position. No biggie.

 

[Ussi]

How does Pit plank good that its broken?

I see G&W being a good planker since his bucket makes him immune to common anti planking projectiles.

 

[Matador]

How does Pit plank good that its broken?

I see G&W being a good planker since his bucket makes him immune to common anti planking projectiles.

People like DK and D3 have no answer to it. Just like I'm sure a huge amount of characters (but not all) have no answer to G&W's ledge camping.

 

[cutter]

G&W is definately an amazing Planker.

Ledgedrop Nair is too good, Uair disrupts attempts at stopping the Planking, Fair is great stuff as well, and up B with multiple invincibility frames can let G&W latch right back onto the ledge without interruption.

You just don't see G&W planking because 1) not many people play G&W and 2) MK does it better

 

[LoyalSoldier]

Even though it has been some time since I last competed competitively thanks to college, I can say planking creates a game that is boring as hell to watch.

If I was sitting there watching the championship game I would just get up and leave if one of the fighters did that.

 

[DanGR]

Planking is defeatable and you can counterpick against it. Don't use the characters that suck against it and you'll have no problem. This thread is dumb.

 

[fromundaman]

He's not completely safe on the ledge. Stalling is Sonic doing his neutral B at the bottom of FD for the entire 7 min where nobody can safely hit him. Stalling is MK's infinite dimension cape thing. Stalling is shooting someone once with Fox then running around Hyrule where nobody except for Fox has a chance of catching him (Melee).

With planking, he's still vulnerable, just not often. It's a very very very gay tactic, but it's not the same. With Stalling, he can't be touched. The game won't allow it.

Except in that given scenario, there ARE characters who could go down there, hit him, and survive.
And you can stall while still being hittable...


My main issue with this is that merely holding on to the ledge until your opponent approaches is banned as stalling if the opposing player makes no move to attack you, yet if you plank, that isn't considered stalling? Something about this doesn't seem right...

Finally, if you keep regrabbing the edge because you are being edgeguarded and your options of getting back on stage are being reduced (say Snake spamming mortar at the edge), then that's not really a stalling technique and it shouldn't be banned.
However, if the point in planking is to stall until the timer runs out and you win by stock or percent advantage, then that IS a stalling technique, and it should be banned as stalling.

 

[LoyalSoldier]

Planking is defeatable and you can counterpick against it. Don't use the characters that suck against it and you'll have no problem. This thread is dumb.

Considering we already are getting thin on viable characters that can actually win a tourney, I would rather not limit that further by gimping characters like Falco just because a cheap trick was discovered. Especially when that trick can be considered stalling.

 

[Nic64]

I would rather not limit that further by gimping characters like Falco just because a cheap trick was discovered.

*pikachu chain grabs falco to 105%*

whoops!

o snap we need to ban that now too

you know the game is probably just bad when there's practically a monthly "what should we ban now" discussion and it seemingly always has the support of the majority of the community

 

[DanGR]

Considering we already are getting thin on viable characters that can actually win a tourney, I would rather not limit that further by gimping characters like Falco just because a cheap trick was discovered. Especially when that trick can be considered stalling.

I could say the same thing about Pikachu's, DDD's, and Falco's chaingrab. Why keep those dumb tricks?

And who cares if Falco can win a tournament? If anything, some other characters become more viable when Falcos are eliminated from the scene because of planking.

The fact of the matter is that it's not unbeatable. If there's only one character in the game that can beat MK and planking, then fine! That's all we need to have diversity. There were only 6 or 7 characters in Melee that could possibly win a tournament. A large majority coming from just a few of those 6-7. There's much more than that in this game even with planking.

 

[B!squick]

I read some of the counter arguements and I'm really starting to side with the "too bad" mentallity. Bowser can deal with it just fine anyway.

I suggest an experiment. Have someone or a couple someone's who are really good at planking play a long series of matches against multiple characters to determine two things: 1), how possible it is to win a tourny in this matter and 2), what can be done to prevent it.

 

[Matador]

Except in that given scenario, there ARE characters who could go down there, hit him, and survive.
And you can stall while still being hittable...

*sigh*

Okay, since we seem to be missing the purpose of those examples, we'll throw out the Sonic one. With the other 2 scenarios, the other player can't do anything about it. MK cannot be touched in his infinite cape thing, and Fox cannot be stopped from running around Hyrule in an attempt to stall. Planking is different because the only thing stopping you from hitting a planking MK or G&W is your inability to deal with the situation.

Him making no move to attack you is the same as you not trying to attack him while he's on the ledge.

 

[fromundaman]

And you missed the point of my entire post...

My point was that there ARE things that are beatable that are banned because the main point in it is to stall the game. Planking is the exact same way. Yes, it is beatable, but it is also focused around stalling the game, and as such should be banworthy considering stalling is supposed to be banned.

 

[Gea]

Yes but how long until it is considered stalling? You could wait till the last stock to stall via planking with the 70 rule and be fine as long as you took the match at a slow enough pace. Sounds ineffective if the person wants to straight up stall.

 

[masterspeaks]

*pikachu chain grabs falco to 105%*

whoops!

o snap we need to ban that now too

you know the game is probably just bad when there's practically a monthly "what should we ban now" discussion and it seemingly always has the support of the majority of the community

This!!!!! OH MY DEAR GOD, THIS!!! This is what I have been saying for like a year. ****ing deal with it, or stop playing!!!! Scrubs have been whining at me: projectile spam is cheap, snake is broken, chain grabs are gay, MK takes no skill, etc. I keep telling them Brawl is a ****ty game. And they keep letting me take cash in money matches.

That this is even up for debate is a joke. Planking is NOT STALLING. Stalling is when the only way another character can approach you is to lose a stock (wall-bombing with peach in melee). Abusing ledge invincibility is a different matter. Guess what? That invincibility runs out, punish them for doing something so predictable. And if you can't win the matchup, counter-pick a character with projectiles that hit or stage that doesn't have permanent ledges.

 

[PeteyPercocet]

I could say the same thing about Pikachu's, DDD's, and Falco's chaingrab. Why keep those dumb tricks?

And who cares if Falco can win a tournament? If anything, some other characters become more viable when Falcos are eliminated from the scene because of planking.

The fact of the matter is that it's not unbeatable. If there's only one character in the game that can beat MK and planking, then fine! That's all we need to have diversity. There were only 6 or 7 characters in Melee that could possibly win a tournament. A large majority coming from just a few of those 6-7. There's much more than that in this game even with planking.

wow you're a ****ing *******. you probably don't even go to tournaments or you're just some planking pansy who only gets wins from playing that way.

planking is the gayest thing in this game, and pretty much the only people who defend it are people who abuse this cheap and easy tactic. but whatever, make brawl an even ****tier game.

 

[Gea]

wow you're a ****ing *******. you probably don't even go to tournaments or you're just some planking pansy who only gets wins from playing that way.

planking is the gayest thing in this game, and pretty much the only people who defend it are people who abuse this cheap and easy tactic. but whatever, make brawl an even ****tier game.

Nice argument. :******:

 

[PeteyPercocet]

i don't have the time or the will to type out a big essay on why planking is gay. it's already been said and i just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

BLARG

 

[M@v]

It should be obvious which one I voted for :D

 

[Omis]

I disregard any opinion that uses the word gay. Please try again in a more convincing and literate manor.

 

[Falconv1.0]

wow you're a ****ing *******. you probably don't even go to tournaments or you're just some planking pansy who only gets wins from playing that way.

planking is the gayest thing in this game, and pretty much the only people who defend it are people who abuse this cheap and easy tactic. but whatever, make brawl an even ****tier game.

I hate planking, I've never used it in my life. I go to tourneys and I'm ANTI BAN.

No, G&W's back air is the gayest thing in the game. You see, the funny thing is, planking only ***** certain characters, and G&W's bair only ***** certain characters. As a Kirby main I should call for a ban on bairs.


You guys want to call for arbitrary rules that make us look like a ****ing joke, because that's what it is. Falco is not made useless just because of planking, he's also made useless from Rainbow Cruise and some pretty bad match ups vs Kirby and G&W.

You cant make an argument that it should be banned if it's beatable, BECAUSE IT'S PLAUSIBLE TO WORK PAST IT AND WIN.

 

[Matador]

And you missed the point of my entire post...

My point was that there ARE things that are beatable that are banned because the main point in it is to stall the game. Planking is the exact same way. Yes, it is beatable, but it is also focused around stalling the game, and as such should be banworthy considering stalling is supposed to be banned.

Stalling isn't one of these things though, that's what IM trying to get at. That's why it's automatically banned with no questions asked whenever a tactic for stalling is brought forth. Nobody ever won tourneys with Fox by stalling on Hyrule or with MK by stalling with his infinite dimension cape, but they were banned immediately without a chance to "find a way to counter it".

That's because stalling cannot be beaten by any character. Period. Planking can. There are things that SK92 could've done vs Plank differently in that set and could've possibly won (he was pretty close to winning ANYway).

The only reason I even brought up those scenarios was to show the difference between planking and stalling and why they aren't the same thing.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I should note calling it edge stalling is misleading, it's camping, not stalling. If he's stalling it's your own **** fault for being a ***** and not figuring out a way to approach.

 

[Kitamerby]

I hate planking, I've never used it in my life. I go to tourneys and I'm ANTI BAN.

No, G&W's back air is the gayest thing in the game. You see, the funny thing is, planking only ***** certain characters, and G&W's bair only ***** certain characters. As a Kirby main I should call for a ban on bairs.

SDI > GnW Bair, and planking in its fullest ***** even characters who are supposed to be good against planking, apparently.

Pikachu's supposed to be one of the best characters to counter planking, and Spammer still was able to beat Anther using it.

It's a pretty ridiculous tactic. I don't believe anyone truly "has no problem" with Planking. Even other MKs have problems with it, it seems.

If everyone gets ***** by planking, who are we supposed to counterpick to? Meta Knight? We'll still get beaten by the better planker.

 

[ArcPoint]

Spam didn't plank, he just played really patiently...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Allow Planking at a major tournament, encourage people to do it, evaluate the results, come to a verdict, repeat if neccessary.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i don't have the time or the will to type out a big essay on why planking is gay. it's already been said and i just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

BLARG

If you have nothing of worth to say, then don't speak at all, you just make yourself look stupid.


Saying "omg ths tactic is so gay" and then proceeding to personally attack the other side of a debate doesn't address the actual issues in the debate which are "is the tactic legitimately overpowered?" and "if so, is it bannable?".


When your 2 cents adds nothing of worth to the debate at hand, it will be ignored with the exception of people pointing out how worthless your comment was, so why bother? You won't change any minds with it.

You don't need an essay, some insight into the topic at hand.

Every character CANT Plank. Only a few characters can even do it semi-effectively. The only characters that do it well enough that people can legitimately ***** about it are MK, ROB and Pit. Everyone else shouldn't even be discussed. If you can't find a way around their spam, there's something wrong.

Actually, Marth does it well too, he can be permanently invincible on the ledge, but no hitbox, so you can steal the ledge from him.

Basically, it forces a ledgesteal attempt if he's ahead.

 

[Nic64]

Pikachu's supposed to be one of the best characters to counter planking, and Spammer still was able to beat Anther using it.

No he didn't, he was on stage most of the time he was running the clock on him. And mostly the match was just extremely campy, up until the last minute or so I wouldn't call any of it stalling, never mind planking.

 

[brinboy789]

G&W can plank well too.

 

[bobson]

I disregard any opinion that uses the word gay. Please try again in a more convincing and literate manor.

Mansions can't be literate, silly.

 

[1048576]

Don't compare an obviously not banworthy tactic to planking unless that tactic also renders all but maybe 5 characters unviable.

Overcentralization is a valid ban criteria

Also, stalling is already banned, for obvious reasons. IMO, planking is just a form of stalling, only we can ban planking in a quantitative manner, which makes life much easier for T.O.s

 

[Ussi]

guys, we are not BANNING planking!! We are putting a LIMIT for matches THAT TIME OUT. The loophole is if you plank, don't let it time out.

This is mereing a way to combat STALLING. It's the same as putting a limit to infinites (300% or so)

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

GaW can plank WELL but there's ample time to instant Ledgehog.

 

[Falconv1.0]

No he didn't, he was on stage most of the time he was running the clock on him. And mostly the match was just extremely campy, up until the last minute or so I wouldn't call any of it stalling, never mind planking.

See this is why I didn't respond, because I was almost 100% certain it was not some epic fail lose due to him doing nothing but camp the edge.

Come on now Kitamerby, let's not start dropping names so we can support arguments like that. What if Anther won, we wouldn't even be mentioning it. Was the loss so bad that we just have to say planking is overpowered and must be banned? I seriously doubt it.


(I say seriously doubt it because I cant find the bloody video, assuming it's on youtube.)



And I'll say it again, this isn't a ****ing debate, planking is CAMPING. Camping in a really stupid way, but it's approachable. Stalling is keeping yourself 100% safe and not doing anything til the time is out, stuff like IDC, which is easy to enforce and should be banned.