Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[_Phloat_]

What about air shenaniganing?

 

[Sphyra]

Limit number of jumps allowed per match. lolol

 

[rehab]

It's valid. Being unpopular is not an excuse to ban it.

 

[B!squick]

I would just like to strongly encourage people to read what Sirlin says on the matter of banning tactics like this. I think what he says here applies very well to the situation with planking.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html



I think the second paragraph is especially fitting.

That cerntainly gives me alot to think about and the second paragraph does illustrate what would happen if a ledge grab rule is enforced.

As it stated, to get around camping for 3 minutes by camping for only 2:59 minutes would be the best tatic. Most games have timers so it's pretty easy to keep track of even if you have to use your own. However, let's compare this to, say, what people in Japan already do, as it was a large enough problem over seas for them to make a rule, which speaks volumes on the issue as a whole. To replicate that in Japan someone would have to keep track of how many times they're grabbing ledges... is that even possible? What if you grab too many times and hit 69 before the match ends? Well, then you're forced to stay on stage and away from the ledge, which would be really hard at what would be high percents. What if you lose track and you're unsure of how many times you ledge grabbed? Do you suck enough to risk a DQ?

To go back to the camping example, let's look at a really popular shooter. Halo 3 for instance. I don't know of any good players or good teams that did well because they camped. Camping in shooters in general is just annoying.

Planking/ledge stalling is ******** because, as said, it can, has, and will win tournaments.

In truth, there's no real way to ban it. All it is, is grabbing the ledge alot to stall out a match. Which is boring and not fun. So what do you do? You set a limit for how many times the ledge can be grabbed to help limit it.

Having an impartial judge watching each match or review vids of matches before declaring a winner would be the absolute best solution, though unfortunately is the least feasable unless it's something of, say, MLG caliber.

 

[Hive]

Hmmm, the problem is that while planking gets rid of one problem- mk, it also screws up a lot of other people's metagames. Like Samuses. So I'm not really sure where I'd fall on that

edit: there are also some situations where some kind of planking is required for a short time. For example if charzy flamethrowers the edge all you can really do is stall until you are able to fulljump out for most characters. Sbr would need to account for this.

edit2: I think bans should be based on simply the direction that people want the game to go in though...
so I guess its a simple cost/benefit analysis. Does having planking in the getting rid of planking overall help or hurt the game?

 

[sMexy-Blu]

None can stop planking make a rule for for it.

 

[B!squick]

Also, on the subject of infinites verse ledge stalling, these are two totally different issues and should probably have things done to limit them for different reasons.

Lets think about this for a second. The first thing you can do to avoid an infinite from DeDeDe or Falco would be to not get grabbed. However, some characters would have an extremely hard time not getting grabbed. Take Bowser for instance. The biggest hurt box of everyone and a ground game that's vastly better than his aerial game. So what does Bowser do about not getting grabbed? Rely on his bad air attacks?... Funny enough, Planking comes to mind. :O

Then we have option #2: counter pick another character. We solved the problem, right? Wrong. Even though it's more fair now, Bowser still has a snowball's chance in that first match and now we're on Game 2 with Bowser a game behind. Ouch.

The problem with Planking is that few characters have an answer for it. The problem with infinites is that a couple characters have almost no answers for it, and measures can only be taken by the player after the match.

 

[Sosuke]

Edge grab limit ftw.

 

[Snare]

Axis Gaming R2 - SK92(12) vs. Plank(89) *Plank wins: 1 stock*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=awI8Zz1EIE8

Plank (White MK)(11) vs Azen (Blue MK)(47) 3 *Azen wins: 1 stock*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-qxyXyRXw

# of grabs next to name in brackets. Just some #s, i dont have an opinion about this yet

 

[Kinzer]

<.<; u do realize some charcters cant do anything about it with out a high risk of losing their stock right.(not everyone has 5 jumps you now, or projectiles that crawl across the stage)

i voted to the edge grab limit

also you should link to a video in the first post for those who have never witnessed or had it happen to them

Then that would be your fault for picking a character who you know would not be able to counter planking if it came down to it.

...Hey now, I'm starting to see the other side of things...!

Oh well, it doesn't matter to me what happens really, though I would rather not have it banned so that way if anybody tried to pull off that trash in a game, Sonic could just do whatever was necessary. ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8(infamous video of from axis)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-qxyXyRXw

just two quick vids

First video is a malformed URL, might want to fix that.

 

[_Phloat_]

Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awI8Zz1EIE8

He just somehow got (infamous to be in the video title, malforming that mofo.

 

[brinboy789]

i've voted "no" all 3 polls.

 

[TheFast]

It can be delt with and its a good tactic for waiting for a better opportunity. Just because it drags out the match because your opponent doesnt want to approach and that it is tuff to deal with. Alot of stuff are good tactics, planking is no more broken than any of them.

I believe using as a tactic to get a better position is good.
Using it to abuse character match-ups to make the game unplayiable is bad.

The Ledge Limit supports both causes.
70 ledge grabs per game >_<

 

[Shadow Moth]

There should be a limit. First of all, I have checked out my edge grab count before because of this issue. In a regular friendly match I grab the edge maybe 17 or 18 times usually and that's even with me intentionally letting go and regrabing the ledge (well c'mon I play TL. that chain isn't there for nothing).

I don't think I've ever gotten past 20 or so even in a four stock match. A limit set to even 40 or 50 should be plenty.

 

[DarkLouis331]

Axis Gaming - SK92 (1) vs. Plank (2). Round 2

Plank stalls for 3 entire minutes. Start watching from the 4 minute mark to see the love in action.

I'll probably vote for the second option.

I saw this match and it was truly ridiculous. (Another MK spam technique >.>) I feel really sorry for the Falco player in that match. I'm in support of either a judge ruling or a grab limit, but I think 70 is way too high.

Maybe we should limit how many times you grab the ledge in the final 1,2,3 minutes of a match? I haven't witnessed planking being used too much, but I can see that planking is most effective at the end of a match. You'd have to have judges at every match area though, so it would be hard to enforce. Idk, just throwing ideas out there.

 

[Vyse]

I agree with DastrnMarco
: 0

It's like Wobbling. It's broken, but it's not causing MK's to take top 8's consistently enough yet to constitute a limit. I think this would be less of an issue if more top/high tiers had an answer to it (I'm thinking Falco).

Needs to be a Gentlemen's rule I think. Even though that's not really an answer.

LedgeSheganiganing is lame.

EDIT: Judges ruling on the basis of excessive stalling would be my choice.

 

[Ussi]

None can stop planking make a rule for for it.

I'm positive Pikachu is near impossible to plank unless you can get past tjolt all the time.

 

[B!squick]

I'm positive Pikachu is near impossible to plank unless you can get past tjolt all the time.

And couldn't Pit Arrow Loop under most stages?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Din's Fire works wonders, I'm sure, as well as Bowser/Charizard's Firebreath.

Lol, who'd have guessed it'd become an issue when the higher tiers can't do much about it? Though to be fair, chars like Ganondorf probably don't have a reliable way to deal with it either. :/

 

[Ussi]

And couldn't Pit Arrow Loop under most stages?

Not feasible.. doable but hard.. (idk, i don't use Pit i'm just thinking you got to be REALLY good at controlling your arrows)

EDIT: I guess Din's fire could work, but i think its too slow to be effective. It'll annoy the planker though, so hurray for that.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I think it's too early to vote for a specific rule against it.. As of now, since Planking's a form of stalling, if a judge is already watching they can call it out. But like others said, nobody's been winning tournaments with just planking, and quite a bit of the cast can actually deal with it.

Planking already falls under stalling, so it can already be dealt with. If it gets to be a noticable problem, then the 55 ledgegrab rule would work.

 

[Hive]

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[B!squick]

nobody's been winning tournaments with just planking,

I would hope the provided vids speak for themselves. o.o

 

[Asdioh]

I voted "don't ban" because I think banning things that aren't winning tournaments is for sissies. If it's so good, why is no one winning tournaments because of it?

"Infinite Dimensional Cape" was banned without hesitation. It never even got a chance to appear in tournaments. I doubt anybody could do IDC as long as they could Plank.

Maybe Planking is so incredibly lame that very few people can cope with themselves when they perform it? I don't know..I've never experienced it personally, but I know what it looks like and I realize that if somebody did do it, you're more likely to get killed trying to stop it than they are.

I see no reason to not use the ledge grab count rule. The only issue is deciding what the number should be.

I agree...everybody should look at how many ledge grabs they do in an average game. If the number were set significantly higher than that, nobody would have to "worry about getting disqualified zomg", but it would help enforce against planking.

I'm positive Pikachu is near impossible to plank unless you can get past tjolt all the time.

And couldn't Pit Arrow Loop under most stages?

The point is, some characters can't do much about it. In that Azen vs. Plank match, Azen "planked" Plank. However, this was a MK dittos. Some characters wouldn't have been able to deal with it nearly as well...and even MK himself had trouble against planking.
Just look at the Falco match. He doesn't exactly have many options against it, considering that MK outprioritizes him, and Falco gets gimped really, really easily.




I guess this is a touchy subject, but I think placing a limit to ledge grabs is a good first step, no matter what. Will it really hurt gameplay?

And...how many of you have seen/experienced excessive ledge stalling in a tourney to run out the timer?

 

[Hive]

excessive ledge stalling falls under stalling already though doesn't it?
but its not just a win win situation guys. Its not that simple (i thought it was pretty simple with ddd, however, people found ways to be against it).
Planking hurts metaknights but it also hurts other characters as well, and occassionally promotes tactics that force the other person to stall on the ledge to avoid damage. such as flamethrower.

 

[rehab]

I would hope the provided vids speak for themselves. o.o

So somebody won an important match using it. That only proves it's a very workable way to take advantage of the game.

 

[xDD-Master]

2)

But I think the numbers could vary on some stages. For example on Norfair there will be a lot more edgegrabs then for example on Summit (Little Joke ). But 70 is a good number i think ^^

 

[Uffe]

This sounds like a good idea, but it's not. Yes, some characters don't have the ability to do anything about planking. But here are some options I think should be put into action if the person is planking.

Due to the fact I can continuously get knocked off the stage and attempt to return by grabbing the edge, the edge grabbing count would go up really quick. So if I do reach over 70 edge grabs, does this mean I'm automatically disqualified simply because I couldn't make a better return? I'd sure hope not, because there's a difference between planking and trying to get back on the stage safely. Stalling itself is banned anyway, correct? If my opponent is stalling on the edge, I shouldn't have to try and knock him or her off the edge.

Why should I risk my own stock in attempt to try and get rid of someone else's? If they're on the edge then I shouldn't have to go over there and risk taking damage or my life. Suddenly I'm the person who's stalling because I can't figure out a way to put damage on my opponent and that doesn't exactly sound fair since the guy on the edge is also stalling. I think planking should be stopped, not by count, but from the actions my opponent is using if they continue to hang on that edge.

 

[ook]

I got planked once in a tourney, by a G&W. It sucked I was pissed, lol.


He'd do a bair to get a few percents, then go right to the ledge.




As other people have said, there doesn't seem to be any reason NOT to have a ledgegrab limit when the time runs out. It's clear, definable, easy to enforce, and the only way you could EVER reach that high of a number is if you use it to stall. You can still plank for defensive purposes, it's not "banning planking." It's just a way to ban a method of stalling for the entire match (which I think most people agree is a bad thing). If you KO the other guy 3 times and win, you still win.


Whereas using a judge ruling would actually be banning the act of planking, which... no.




edit: for the people saying "stalling is banned anyway." Yeah... but there's no way to enforce that, lol. TOs just put that in their rules to discourage it, but there's really nothing they can do if someone is "stalling."

You can't actually ban stalling. You CAN put a limit to the number of times you can grab the edge and still win by time-out.

 

[Hive]

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[Asdioh]

Due to the fact I can continuously get knocked off the stage and attempt to return by grabbing the edge, the edge grabbing count would go up really quick. So if I do reach over 70 edge grabs, does this mean I'm automatically disqualified simply because I couldn't make a better return? I'd sure hope not, because there's a difference between planking and trying to get back on the stage safely. Stalling itself is banned anyway, correct? If my opponent is stalling on the edge, I shouldn't have to try and knock him or her off the edge.

I just looked at a section of one of the videos, and Plank grabbed the edge 15 times in 30 seconds. He could have grabbed more/less than that if he wanted to, but that is how those 30 seconds played out.

Trust me, you will NOT get 15 ledgegrabs, even in 2 minutes, if you're getting edgeguarded like you say. You will make it on stage, or lose your stock before that happens.


Anyway, I think it'll be obvious to both players, and anyone watching most of the match if either player is stalling.

If your opponent edgeguards you so well (or rather, poorly) that you keep getting back on the ledge, but he doesn't let you get so far as the stage, and he doesn't KO you...and the match runs out on time....and you somehow pass the ledge grab count....yeah, I don't see it happening :/



I wonder if it's possible to have a certain edge grab limit for characters in general, but have a lower number set for those that have ridiculously strong planking potential (MK, and as ook mentioned, G&W...both have high-priority, fast Up Specials, with invincibility frames in them...)

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I still encourage people who worry about "accidentally" hitting a high number of edge grabs when NOT using it for stalling to check their statistics after their games, and report those back here to us. I'll say it again, you'll be surprised how few times you actually grab the ledge, even if you rely heavily on it.

Lets say, for arguments sake, that you REALLY like the edge, so you always grab the edge 3 times whenever you are on it. Then, lets say that per stock you are forced to the edge 5 times. That means you are getting 15 edge grabs per stock, and 45 edge grabs per game, which is likely much lower than the limit we would set for tournaments. Plus, don't forget, THE RULE IS TO CHECK EDGE GRABS ONLY IF THE GAME TIMES OUT. If the game does not go to time, then the rule is meaningless, so even if there are people that love to play on the edge but don't stall, as long as their games don't last 8 minutes, then they shouldn't be worried about the rule at all while they play.

 

[B!squick]

This sounds like a good idea, but it's not. Yes, some characters don't have the ability to do anything about planking. But here are some options I think should be put into action if the person is planking.

Due to the fact I can continuously get knocked off the stage and attempt to return by grabbing the edge, the edge grabbing count would go up really quick. So if I do reach over 70 edge grabs, does this mean I'm automatically disqualified simply because I couldn't make a better return? I'd sure hope not, because there's a difference between planking and trying to get back on the stage safely. Stalling itself is banned anyway, correct? If my opponent is stalling on the edge, I shouldn't have to try and knock him or her off the edge.

Why should I risk my own stock in attempt to try and get rid of someone else's? If they're on the edge then I shouldn't have to go over there and risk taking damage or my life. Suddenly I'm the person who's stalling because I can't figure out a way to put damage on my opponent and that doesn't exactly sound fair since the guy on the edge is also stalling. I think planking should be stopped, not by count, but from the actions my opponent is using if they continue to hang on that edge.

Japan adopted 70 for ten minute matches I read somewhere. Play a friendly and take a look at how many times you grabbed the ledge. And besides, 70 is just what they use. I'm pretty sure they did their homework before setting a standard, so we would have to do the same.

And it's not stalling if you're being planked and can't do anything about it. It's called being in a hopeless position, i.e.: the infamous vid provided a few pages back.

 

[King~]

you guys do know the ledge limit only comes into play if time runs out?

you can "plank" until 7:59 as long as you get three KOs.

and i think you guys dont realize how high 70 ledge grabs is. if your getting thrown off the stage enough to grab the ledge 70 times, you would lose anyway.

EDIT: TO SLOW <.<

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Just.... listen. 70 grabs is more than enough for 8 minutes. Don't worry about it. You won't go over the limit. Just discuss the issue at hand. Arguing the accidentally hitting it point is just avoiding the real issue.

 

[Hive]

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[Melomaniacal]

Just.... listen. 70 grabs is more than enough for 8 minutes. Don't worry about it. You won't go over the limit. Just discuss the issue at hand. Arguing the accidentally hitting it point is just avoiding the real issue.

There was a sentence here, but I edited it out because I misread your post. :D

I honestly think 70 is enough to plank through a good enough portion of 7/8 minutes to still be just as bad, though.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I've edited the first post to include a more thorough definition of Planking, and the Axis video that everyone is linking to. For a more recent example of planking, I was thinking of linking to Anther vs Spammerer ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg7h0ZIluLs ), especially the second game, but I'm not sure if it fully qualifies as "planking." What do you guys think?

 

[Melomaniacal]

I've edited the first post to include a more thorough definition of Planking, and the Axis video that everyone is linking to. For a more recent example of planking, I was thinking of linking to Anther vs Spammerer ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg7h0ZIluLs ), especially the second game, but I'm not sure if it fully qualifies as "planking." What do you guys think?

What time does it start? That **** thing is 23 minutes

 

[Asdioh]

That **** thing is 23 minutes

Exactly.



IRL ledge camping to run out the timer should be banned.

And by "ledge camping" I mean "procrastinating via forum refresh button" and by "timer" I mean "due date for English papers."

 

[Hive]

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