You scare me.
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Getting closer =D
Not as many votes as I would have guessed =\.
Not as many votes as I would have guessed =\.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
I think we can at least deduce that until one side's numbers towered over the others, a large scale MK ban isn't happening.
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
Yea. It's too early anyway.
Mmac
Smash Lord
So because I don't go to major completive tournaments, I'm not allowed to have any participation in this community or any say at all, and should just quit smash in general. Just because I haven't gone to somewhere like HOBO, doesn't mean I don't know anything about the completive part of Smash. Plus why do I have to go to tournaments to prove that So and so can do this, and this person can do this on that character? Oh, Nobody has used Ganondorfs Super Jump in Tournaments either. I guess thats only Theory too.
Except the problem here is that you are comparing PEOPLE rather than the character himself. Just because Bwett doesn't get treated like Crap doesn't mean Yoshi still doesn't. Plus other than Bwett, who else uses mainly Yoshi regulary in Major Completive Tournaments Regularly? We don't have Juggernaunts all over the nation defending us you know.
And this is exactly what I am arguing against. These people, all they think they have to do is post one little sentence with a fact that is poorly explained, without going into anything else about this matchup, and claiming it as simple fact for everyone to believe in ONLY because he's majority popular in the tournament scene. This is the EXACT same thing with the podcast. They act like Yoshi can't do **** all, and believe that It's just clear as day, that they don't need to give out any explanations. I say BULL****!
@ColinJF: WTF Does that have to do with anything? So because I have a different opinion as you, that gives you the right to bash me and my character, and proclaiming that I am the Problem? Well yay! Good for you! Now **** off!
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Um, when you argue that Yoshi and MK in a competitive scene go even, and have 0 proof to back this up, then yeah, we dont give a flying ****.
And what the **** are you smoking, we have videos of Ganon doing the super jump, that is in no way comparable to this conversation.
No sir, YOU **** OFF.
And what the **** are you smoking, we have videos of Ganon doing the super jump, that is in no way comparable to this conversation.
No sir, YOU **** OFF.
I'm afraid theory would be that Ganondorf's super jump is useful in competitive play, not that it exists.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I have Zero Proof at all? What exactly do I need proof for? Please tell me? Because the entire months I've been discussing this matchup, I have posted nothing but "Proof".
GofG
Smash Champion
Reminds me kinda of my sig.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
yet people still say olimar goes even with Mk.
People still say Dk goes even with Mk.
people still say Lucario goes even with MK even though the evidence provided is minimal compared to the evidence saying otherwise.
Let alone that the yoshi community has analyzed the matchup thoroughly and a number have tested those theories.
Tell him what the arguments are for MK having the advantage other than lol yoshi low tier.
I have yet to see ANY actual argument for Yoshi having an immediate disadvantage to MK.
That was automatically assumed.
At least the yoshi boards did actual studies and tested their theories.
No one has gone to challenge them other tahn say "lol it doesn't happen", meanwhile no one creates ANY theory for MK having an advantage on yoshi.
Why is it all right to assume a character has an advantage rather than actually discuss in detail the matchup? Just because the character is top tier or high tier? bad reasoning is bad.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Like what exactly? I've yet to hear of a tourney where someone successfully countered MK with Yoshi, all I've seen is you say it's possible.
@Shadowlink-I'm not arguing the match up, I'm trying to get to understand why it is everyone scoffs at his claims.
Good God read the post.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
I haven't heard of anybody placing irregularly with Ganondorf using the super jump. It might as well not exist atm.
GofG
Smash Champion
The burden of proof lies on the Yoshi team, ShadowLink. You guys have to actually start beating Metaknights in tournaments before you can start demanding that people believe you.
GofG
Smash Champion
Aeghrur, then why aren't Yoshi's doing better in tournaments than they are? Why aren't they beating Metaknights? If it really is that close to even, then Yoshi is one of MK's worst matchups, yet we don't see anyone switching to Yoshi for the MK fight. Why is this?
Note:
existence of techs vs validity of matchups != good analogy.
You show a video of a tech, and people are like "WTF!? HAX!" but then attach a 'how-to' and it gets confirmed/deconfirmed right away.
You show a video of a matchup, and people are like "OMG BUT THE LOSING PERSON MADE SO MANY MISTAKES! NEEDS MOAR PERFECT PLAY!!1"
>_____>
existence of techs vs validity of matchups != good analogy.
You show a video of a tech, and people are like "WTF!? HAX!" but then attach a 'how-to' and it gets confirmed/deconfirmed right away.
You show a video of a matchup, and people are like "OMG BUT THE LOSING PERSON MADE SO MANY MISTAKES! NEEDS MOAR PERFECT PLAY!!1"
>_____>
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
1. yoshi is severely underplayed as a character. So it is very rare to see a Yoshi let alone a GOOD one.
2. yoshi typically does not have the chance to face MK because he gets beaten by other characters..
3. As for why they don't switch? They don't want to its that simple. You do have Snake who also goes nuetral. Or, maybe, people have already assumed that yoshi is disadvantaged just like they do now. Why risk testing something in a tournament setting.
Would you risk a money match just to test a matchup? course not.
Again what are the arguments for Mk having the advantage on Yoshi?
This is not a court of law so no "burden of proof" please its rather tiring.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
Devil's Advocate argument: Yoshi is impractically difficult to pick up for a single match.
Go to more tourneys and try stuff Yoshi mains
Go to more tourneys and try stuff Yoshi mains
It's easier to play MK, and takes less time.
There's not that many great yoshi players.
Mk vs Mk is still easier than Mk vs Yoshi.
Metaknight still have the advantage, you'd just expect yoshi to do better against MK than like, most of the rest of the cast.
There's not that many great yoshi players.
Mk vs Mk is still easier than Mk vs Yoshi.
Metaknight still have the advantage, you'd just expect yoshi to do better against MK than like, most of the rest of the cast.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
He may do well against MK but why risk testing if there is money on the line.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
If you are so sure of Yoshi going even then the fact you'll take that risk shows you have some ****ing stones, and actually believe in the **** you say?
rehab
Smash Journeyman
We need some hardcore Yoshi guy who's actually fantastic to go **** people out of nowhere at a large tournament, Bum style.
GofG
Smash Champion
Don't tell me that a legitimate argument is "rather tiring".
We claim that Yoshi does not go even with Metaknight. This is the default position, as general consensus is that Metaknight has a better-than-even matchup with every other character in the game. Also, he is the best character in the game, while Yoshi is some random low-tier.
We don't need to make any more arguments than that. We don't need to provide any more proof than that. If it turns out that in the actual game mechanics, Yoshi has an even matchup with Metaknight, then we will have to change our position, but as it stands, there is not a single Yoshi on the North American continent who is beating good metaknights.
As I said, you are challenging the status quot, and as such, the burden of proof lies on you.
Also, DK in Melee was underplayed, but there is little doubt that early in the game, he countered Fox. No one argued with that. Later as Foxes got better and became harder to grab, that all changed, but in the early days of the game, DK ***** Fox hard. We knew this because Captain Jack would **** every Fox he met, in tournament and out of tournament, with DK.
As far as him getting beaten by other characters... so does every character but Metaknight. Melee DK players did not play DK against Marth; they only switched to DK for playing against fast fallers. Why could someone not learn Yoshi well enough to play against MKs, and also learn another character to beat non-MKs?
Rehab, I believe Mmac is the best Yoshi. Ask him.
mmac, Colin was trying to point out that you're signing onto a confusing position. The people who want to ban Meta Knight have all the characters figured out. They know Meta Knight is broken, they know Snake is the closest thing to an answer to him, and they know Yoshi is garbage. One of the major premises of their argument is that Meta Knight has an advantage over the whole cast; Yoshi is a part of the whole cast I might remind you. I am really dubious that many people other than you can look at Meta Knight and lack the imagination to see how to stop him yet at the same time possess the imagination to see Yoshi winning, especially against the Meta Knight they view as so powerful. To be very blunt about it, you are on the wrong side if you want people to take you seriously about Yoshi. It seems obvious that just about all of your "allies" on the pro-ban side consider Yoshi bottom tier garbage and further consider any attempt to defend him a waste of time and an obvious joke. I'm not saying the anti-ban side is exactly full of Yoshi enthusiasm, but it's definitely a greener pasture. I'm sure you'll perceive this as a personal attack, but I hope you can consider that I'm only bothering to make a post specifically addressed to you because, for whatever reason, I'm considering you worth my while to try to convince (that's kinda like a compliment?).
I also don't recall Colin insulting Yoshi except for the times he trolls Naucitos on Shoddy Battle (common Shoddy Battle stuff; I troll Colin about Ness all the time too). You are far from alone in believing that [X character] is generally treated unfairly by the community and has a lot more potential than his poor results show. You don't really have to convince me that that sort of argument has a lot of truth to it; I'm the guy who lost to Legan's Link in pools back in June and just this weekend had ridiculously close matches with Thinkaman's Jigglypuff, both using the top tier Mr. Game & Watch. I'm a believer in brawl's balance, and I understand game mechanics enough to understand that Yoshi has some pretty impressive theoretical abilities (though it puzzles me that you Yoshi players don't use Dragonic Reverse WAY more... like as your primary form of movement). The idea is definitely that some characters perform differently in tournaments now than their real potential suggests, and as the new things are discovered and older things implemented we very well may see big changes. That could show Yoshi moving up... and it could show Meta Knight moving down. I really don't understand how you could vote "yes" if you believe this.
I also don't recall Colin insulting Yoshi except for the times he trolls Naucitos on Shoddy Battle (common Shoddy Battle stuff; I troll Colin about Ness all the time too). You are far from alone in believing that [X character] is generally treated unfairly by the community and has a lot more potential than his poor results show. You don't really have to convince me that that sort of argument has a lot of truth to it; I'm the guy who lost to Legan's Link in pools back in June and just this weekend had ridiculously close matches with Thinkaman's Jigglypuff, both using the top tier Mr. Game & Watch. I'm a believer in brawl's balance, and I understand game mechanics enough to understand that Yoshi has some pretty impressive theoretical abilities (though it puzzles me that you Yoshi players don't use Dragonic Reverse WAY more... like as your primary form of movement). The idea is definitely that some characters perform differently in tournaments now than their real potential suggests, and as the new things are discovered and older things implemented we very well may see big changes. That could show Yoshi moving up... and it could show Meta Knight moving down. I really don't understand how you could vote "yes" if you believe this.
Mmac
Smash Lord
What the hell are you talking about? Plenty of people have beaten Good MetaKnights with Yoshi. You guys just don't give a ****! Ask any redeeming Yoshi here and they tell you that they have success using Yoshi against MetaKnights in the matchup. I could bring up the "Bwett beat Dojo" Card again, but since this is like the 10th time... I doubt anyone gives a ****. Yet if it's with any other character, it's instantly ZOMG COUNTER!!! I'll be in the car >_>
Because of the fact that he's unpopular, and everyone else slanders the thing, driving people away from him. Nobody tries him out because everyone is fixated that he's garbage and not worth anyones time.
Also, how am I Trolling? I'm not aloud to Defend my character, but everyone else has the right to bash my character? Does nothing but prove my "High ranking officials are racist against Yoshi" Theory
XxBlackxX
Smash Ace
because yoshi is a hard character to learn well, and he isn't a very popular character at tournies.
GofG
Smash Champion
Mmac, stop making sloppy spelling errors like "aloud" instead of "allowed". You're more intelligent than that.
I am not a high ranking official.
Link me to a video of a Yoshi beating a metaknight who I have heard of (in a tournament), and I'll concede all points.
I am not a high ranking official.
Link me to a video of a Yoshi beating a metaknight who I have heard of (in a tournament), and I'll concede all points.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Yeah, that's my auto-spellchecker. It does that sometimes and it annoys even me
Meh, you have a premium account, and been here for almost 4 years. You're close enough
All of Yoshi's Videos are in the Yoshi Video thread. Hopefully there's a few that should satisfy what you are looking for
brinboy789
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-MQUHnIBUQ
never heard of this guy but he seems pretty good.
whoa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t11GYdJ0Gd0
bwett 2 stocking DOJO...and bwett had a WTF death on first stock...
another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrcMLqFwI6M
bwett winning against DOJO again. don tell me you never heard of dojo lol
and im picking bwett because hes the only good yoshi i know...i couldnt find any vids of Mmac versing MK
GofG
Smash Champion
I kinda suck at this game
GofG
Smash Champion
Brinboy, friendlies are too suspect to actually be used to say that Yoshi goes even with Metaknight. Howabout a tournament vid, or at least a money match?
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Mmac, you should so go to a big tourny and just destroy the local MKs. Problem is, is that people would use Yoshi as an example as why to not ban MK >.>.
brinboy789
Smash Champion
those were the only vids i could find with bwett vs MK. i couldnt find any tourney vids with a MK that you would know. theres on called "cody", never heard of him, you probably didnt either.besides, in a friendly, you have to at least TRY right? and dojo got 2 stocked
and he wasnt sandbagging or anything...or at least it doesnt look like he did.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
If they're friendlies then they really dont mean ****. :/
brinboy789
Smash Champion
yea well in friendlys you have to at least TRY right? and i couldnt find any other tourney vid of MK vs Yoshi, except for somebody called "cody" which i never heard of and you probably didnt either.
Most people dont try in friendlies.
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