Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[noodles]

I never said I survived Snake's u-tilt at 180%.

Also, I believe the person I was playing was Noodles.

i think i remember that, are were talking about the uair you survived at lylat?

 

[Overswarm]

i think i remember that, are were talking about the uair you survived at lylat?

Yup. I'm pretty sure you were who I was playing. I remember I IMed you and said "Don't worry, MK's light."

then we lol'd.

 

[imtired]

Meta Knight isn't overpowered. This whole debate interestingly started after the tier list came out. Alot of people will try to use a higher tier character for what they perceive to be a better chance to win. Meta Knight tournament results are skewed because more people use meta-knight, so he obviously has more wins.

Also the alleged no weak match-ups is debatable. At the same or similar skill level Meta-Knight isn't unbeatable with other characters. Not saying that I have a problem with advanced techs, but why would you ban something obviously included in the game on purpose, but allow unintended game play aspects.

He is not Akuma in Super Turbo level, people just need to play and not use Meta-Knight as an excuse for their loss.

In case anyone wondered Im not a MK main.

 

[XienZo]

Meta Knight isn't overpowered. This whole debate interestingly started after the tier list came out. Alot of people will try to use a higher tier character for what they perceive to be a better chance to win. Meta Knight tournament results are skewed because more people use meta-knight, so he obviously has more wins.

Also the alleged no weak match-ups is debatable. At the same or similar skill level Meta-Knight isn't unbeatable with other characters. Not saying that I have a problem with advanced techs, but why would you ban something obviously included in the game on purpose, but allow unintended game play aspects.

He is not Akuma in Super Turbo level, people just need to play and not use Meta-Knight as an excuse for their loss.

In case anyone wondered Im not a MK main.

You haven't been watching the thread much, have you?

 

[Overswarm]

He also doesn't realize how a tier list is made, nor did he find out that the SBR voted unanimously for MK as the #1 character. >_>

 

[hotgarbage]

Clouderz,Masknight, etc.

wifi doesn't mean anything :/

 

[bigman40]

Anyone that thinks Yoshi goes even with MK has no idea what they're talking about. Same thing applies to Olimar, which I've been seeing recently for some reason.

And the only way I could see the U-air not killing MK at 180%, other than staling, is if the MK DI'ed it perfectly and the Snake missed the sweetspot for it.

Then I guess having two boards agree to something isn't the truth anymore. I guess I shouldn't believe in the matchups then. Btw, it's slightly disadvantaged, not even. If people round 45-55 to being even, then that's their problem to deal with.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Anyone that thinks Yoshi goes even with MK has no idea what they're talking about. Same thing applies to Olimar, which I've been seeing recently for some reason.

Not "even" but neutral. If you're thinking of "neutral" the way the Marth boards think of it, then you're right. But a lot of people think of "neutral" as 55-45 to 45-55, and that's the way a lot of people talk about it.


Turns out the pivot grab beats every MK approach, problem is, MK doesn't have to approach and he zones better, Yoshi has options, but not quite as good as MK's, but they both lose on approach, hence the slight MK advantage, which most people will call neutral.


As for Olimar, M2K is saying this, but like the Snake match-up that he's talking about, it's quite frankly BS. He talks about it in terms of "perfect camping" (the same thing that he talks about with Snake), but what I get from this "perfect camping" is that it requires frame perfect reaction time, aka, not humanly possible.


Basically, people believe him because he's M2K, there's a signifigant group of people that would believe him if he said, "Ganondorf is top tier", it's a little scary.

I never said I survived Snake's u-tilt at 180%.

Also, I believe the person I was playing was Noodles.

Wait... you actually survived a uair at 180 from snake?

...

[beep] [beep]ing [beep] [beep] you MK. You [beep]!

Seriously, that's insane.

 

[noodles]

Yup. I'm pretty sure you were who I was playing. I remember I IMed you and said "Don't worry, MK's light."

then we lol'd.

yeah that was crazy/amazing/ghey that you survived that lol

 

[XienZo]

Then I guess having two boards agree to something isn't the truth anymore. I guess I shouldn't believe in the matchups then. Btw, it's slightly disadvantaged, not even. If people round 45-55 to being even, then that's their problem to deal with.

Its one more out of 20 matches.

That 5 isn't going to do much.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yup. I'm pretty sure you were who I was playing. I remember I IMed you and said "Don't worry, MK's light."

then we lol'd.

wait what?
vids now OS. NAO!

 

[XienZo]

LOl, imagine how long DDD would live against jigglypuff if we find out how he survived it...

 

[mariofanpm12]

Hey, don't make fun of Ganondorf! He's 3rd worst in the game! (Big deal, I know...)

 

[XienZo]

As for Olimar, M2K is saying this, but like the Snake match-up that he's talking about, it's quite frankly BS. He talks about it in terms of "perfect camping" (the same thing that he talks about with Snake), but what I get from this "perfect camping" is that it requires frame perfect reaction time, aka, not humanly possible.

You don't need frame perfect reactions at all. You just have to always use a specific move in specific situations. Its humanely possible. We just have to not panic. In the slightest.

 

[Overswarm]

wait what?
vids now OS. NAO!

I don't record random wifi matches. :\

 

[Airborne]

as much as i hate MK, i don't hate him b/c "he's broken" or anything; he's still part of the game, and not like items, at all. i like him being there b/c the good ones set a bar for other players to reach with other characters..... i just don't like how many there are. XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

as much as i hate MK, i don't hate him b/c "he's broken" or anything; he's still part of the game, and not like items, at all. i like him being there b/c the good ones set a bar for other players to reach with other characters..... i just don't like how many there are. XD

MK is a part of the game as well.
Wanna know how to turn MK off?
Don't choose him.


Setting a higher bar? Stupidity.
Why should I have to put up with a character thats 10x better than everyone else?
If we worked on the idea that its okay for a character to be around , because they force you to work harder, we would still have Akuma in SF2.

 

[XienZo]

Well, we can set the bar or we can BE the bar. Once everyone realizes that and becomes the bar, no one else is there to reach it.

 

[Mmac]

Anyone that thinks Yoshi goes even with MK has no idea what they're talking about.

It's so easy to discriminate, but everytime someone brings it up and is responded by a SBR Member, it's always either We don't know what we're talking about, we're insane, or we're completely biased to our character. Yet, I NEVER see anyone actually EXPLAIN why he can't compete with MetaKnight. All you do is treat him like a joke now and pretend like he can't amount to anything in this game, and the Podcast does nothing but support my theory (When It came to Yoshi, there was so much you could have discussed. Pivot Grab beating out a majority of his moves? His multiple options on release? The fact that he can keep up with MetaKnight's Range and Speed? Can completely avoid MetaKnight's Edgeguarding game, which is his Strongest Point? Or how about the only character that has multiple heavy stage counterpicks against him? No, all you did was Laugh for ten seconds, then claim that we are the biased ones for just putting Neutral on the Matchups for the heck of it for no reason at all)

Yoshi can amount to the game, if people, and especially you guys, would stop slandering the **** thing! I let Overswarms sabotage on Yoshi's Character Discussion Conclusion slide (Everyone was agreed with "Yoshi's Recovery is unique that he can be only gimped if the player screws up his recovery" to "Yoshi's recovery, while good as far as distance is concerned, can be less than adequate..... but Yoshi is one of those characters that ends up getting tossed off the side of the stage a lot." for no reason at all), but now I'm getting beyond irritated. He's not unpopular because he's complexed to play as (Although that might have a part also), but because people keep telling (or implying) that our character is garbage, a joke, and not worth the persons time.

You keep telling us to compete in tournaments, but you people keep shunning people who are remotely interested in Yoshi away from us to actually compete in tournaments with him, not to mention there's barely any of us competing in major completive settings regularly in the first place. Not even Falcon or Ganondorf had it this bad.

Plus why are you, Samurai, being like this? I remember back then, you thought the same which Yoshi was vastly underrated, actually defending us from constant claims that Yoshi was the worst character in the game. Now you're practically like them, Laughing at us, and treating us and our main like a joke, practically implying that he IS the worst character in the game. How can your views changed so much, especially since he improved vastly since May?


I'm just tired of people being like this. Sometimes I just wonder if you guys don't even look at our character anymore, at least in a serious, completive sense. Yoshi can actually COMPETE, and become VIABLE if you would actually take the time to actually know about our character and what he can do, instead of passing claims that he's nothing more than a Joke. I'm tired of constant discrimination against Yoshi. It's beyond insulting and slander. It's almost racist...

 

[infomon]

^^ mad props to Mmac. Yoshi gets way too much hate, but I think the SBR just doesn't care about characters they don't see very often in the tournament scene. It's very sad how much everyone (not just SBR) subtly discourages people from picking up Yoshi though. I've been guilty of this myself and I apologize.

 

[gantrain05]

meh, just get rid of metaknight already, seriously like 90% of people complain about him, obviously if he wasn't good those people wouldn't be complaining, he's clearly better than every character, hence the ZERO disadvantages, every other character has disadvantages that you can actually counterpick, but im sorry yoshi being at 45-55 is not a counter, thats great for yoshi, but it doesn't change the fact MK is still a broken POS. i think its time to start looking at the problem seriously when the majority of smashers feel the same way.....maybe its because its true.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Pit's arrows have more cooldown than Falco's shorthopped lasers.

They don't. That's just stupid. Falco's lasers would have to have godly cooldown and they just don't.

I have no idea who ShadowGamerDarkly even is, but I can't find a single video not involving Wifi on that channel you linked me to.

Oh sure, like you should talk when you're not exploiting the bad cooldown of Falco's lasers.

Do you go to tournaments? If so maybe I can find some reference in placements.

Does it matter? 112.5% is a multiplication factor. A small one at that, and considering everything is pretty much instantaneous, it doesn't make things slower than the Oil attack any easier to evade.

Actually, I decided to go ahead and pick a video to watch. It took some time to find a 1v1, since a bunch of them appear to be FFA, but this one will do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY0ErdOmuh0

Wow. So you skip my fights with him on purpose.

You say you dare me to say ShadowGamerDarkly sucks, but I feel absolutely no pressure in saying so, as it appears to be the truth.

That was from a while ago. So congratulations. The sagemoon videos I linked to are now completely valid to refer to again.

Wifi superstars evolving the meta game.

but not really

Is what you're doing any better, really?

...

As far as I can see he doesn't even play in this environment. We are not talking about FFAs, we're talking about 1v1s and teams in the current competitive standard environment and offline.

Does he use items? I don't think so.

It's not about flaunting, it's about certain tactics being immensely powerful at low levels of play, but when you reach certain levels of play, they're not overpowered.

Let me guess: because the arrow abusers don't bother to strategize?

Oh, and I saw the vid, he does in fact, suck.

I have fought him. He does i fact, ot suck.

He can reliably hit, but the speed is about consistent so it can be powershielded/spotdodge, and without the speed it cannot hold them in place, even if you ARE hitting them consistently. They WILL approach and you need to be able to fight once that happens.

The arrows can be held to mess up timing. And if you're too busy powershielding or spotdodging, say hello to a lot of damage or a broken shield.

And an arrow abuser is not going to be ready to fight at a moment's notice when? Oh, that's right: only if they're brain-dead.

How does this matter? They're doing it reactively (response time is about 7 frames, pit's arrows require more then that), most can just activate the reflector/shield.

There aren't even 10 characters who have a reflector or absorber. This is including Pit himself and 2 or 3 clone characters. And how do you have 7 frame reaction time, that's just way too insane. That barely amounts to 0.12 seconds. You're making an obvious lie.

Regardless, angle the arrow so it can't reflect back unto you, then you don't need to worry about reflectors period. The have to approach eventually then.

Indeed.

They recover from shieldstun before you're out of cooldown, they attack. You won't even have a chance to angel ring or grab, because you'll still be in recovery frames.

I'll be out of cooldown before they get to attack. The end.

What are you talking about? Don't you shorthop your lasers? Pits cooldown is MUCH more then Falco's when Falco shorthops his lasers, hence the reason why EVERY advanced player will shorthop laser. Lower rate of fire, but MUCH safer.

Makes it more difficult to jump over pragmatically as well.

Jump + instant airdodge. You learn it against Pokey's laser.

However, Pit can mess up your timing easily. Falco can't.

Your recovery from arrow is much greater then anybody's shieldstun+shield drop when powershielding, you can check the frame data if you'd like. Your best bet is to shield yourself, and maybe you won't get hit.

Meta Knight's shieldstun is also garbage if you're going to suggest a weakness. So silence about Meta Knight.

Seriously, you're playing on wifi, your wifi experience doesn't mean a thing here because the game is DRASTICALLY different without latency.

Also, it's drastically different in 1v1 and teams then FFA.

Game runs fine as long as there isn't some random server hiccups.

And I scoff at those who would evaluate FFAs as jokes without at least taking a looksie at what happened.

lol at arrows being OP.

lol more at that vid.

lol at claims that arrows suck when they are far better than PSI Thunder

lol more at people who bash me over how long the sagemoon videos were while disregarding how long ago the video was

"Because of G&W"
WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIT! He has a DISADVANTAGED MATCH UP? A COUNTER?
Then why are we even DISCUSSING if Pit should be banned? Seriously, that line ruined your argument. Pit has a counter, use the counter, get an advantage, higher chance of beating pit. :O Can you believe it?

And yet Pit is above middle tier on a tier list built on how many wins the character has obtained, when he has limited players, plenty of his representatives being amateurs from what I hear, and a fairly commonly used hard counter. Why's that ya think?

The problem with Pit is that he breaks the counterpick system the exact opposite way Meta Knight supposedly does: he abuses it. You pick a counter because he wants you to. And you approach him because he wants you to. If he's practiced against potential counters, you can't catch him because what you want to do just gets you beaten around--but oh, that's right, you have no other alternatives, they'll just be beaten down. The counterpick system in general bugs me because of issues like this, but Pit is downright blatant about it.

Well, now, let's look at MK. Play MK, he has a counter... wait... no... um, he has neutrals so you have a 50/50 chance... wait... no... you have a 45/55 chance with another character at best. Okay, so play MK, play MK to counter, and um, who cares about those other characters. They can be countered, can MK? Seemingly not. If you want, you can go with another character you love so much for a NEAR even chance like Yoshi or Snake, but why? Your human, your greedy, your in it for the money, your competitive, don't waste your time learning those characters, use your time perfecting MK, you'll be more successful.(theorycraft okay? Don't take this to heart, it's a generalization.)

Soo, who's more bannable? MK or Pit? Apparently Pit. >_>

Meta Knight is at least only truly troublesome at close range. In a game where you're supposed to be able to deal with close range characters to begin with. Pit, nuh uh. He ***** you from long range. Ness and Samus never did that and Fox already had a Reflector move as early as the first game. Why should Pit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU

I saw a ton of delayed reactions, like Zelda starting her U-air, and Pit's jump+airdodge being late, or Zelda rolling and Pit grabbing at her as Zelda passed him.

Was that wifi?

If it was a live video, I only heard one controller clicking on, and no voices from other people. If it was a replay, then
1) What was the clicking?
2) Does the win screen come up during replays?

What was with team attack off? Projectile spamming becomes superuseful with team attack off, but it's not tournament standard.

What you say?

When team battles are involved, Pit has to contend with two opponents, either of whom can sneak past both the teammate and the arrows. The arrow spam is agony on 1-on-1s because there's only one of you against Pit's arrows causing flinching, and you're stuck flinching or dodging and screwing up your approach, and Pit can keep your eye on you as well in case you attempt to teleport.

Meatshield? Puh-leeze. That Zelda got past the Ike. The Zelda used Farore's Wind, which I would have responded faster if I hadn't let myself be distracted with showering the Marth, and considering how I can read Farore's Wind like a map, goodbye approach. Hell, I still attacked before she could, the only reason why I got hit was because I messed up my defense.

Even if you do catch Pit, you still have to smack him around for a while. Because if you don't kill him outright, he WILL recover. What? Wings of Icarus can be gimped? Sure, I'm going to let you hit me? And that assumes I even need that. 3 midair jumps and a glide isn't even bad. And you'll need to rack up his damage rating a bit to get him off the stage to begin with, he's BARELY any lighter than Mario.

On a side note, Falco/Wolf lasers, TL projectiles, Bananas, Turnips, and Arrows are quite annoying online.

I'd even go as far as to say they're overpowered.

Lasers can be jumped (except Fox's blaster, but THEY don't cause flinching so Fox leaves himself open if he spams it, and it's worth taking 10% of damage to gain the advantage in my book). TL's projectiles...you've had 3 games to know how to deal with any of them. Bananas, I'll just grab and throw out of the way where Diddy can't use them. Turnips are slow. And arrows? Whose arrows? Link's? I can just jump them.

And before you say Aether spam, Aether is used by a laggy character so you can dodge the initial part quite often, and the move itself makes said character easy to attack when he's done.

Awwww.

Don't waste your breath calling me Captain Obvious, I'm going to state anyway that I don't like you. I know I don't.

None. There's only one placing G&W in Washington state, Valdens, and he's on the east side of the state over five hours away.

Well, I'm hearing plenty of Pits are amateurs anyway. If that's the case, it would explain a good deal of why Pit doesn't do so well. However, this would be because they can't clean hit to save their lives, which will be the case when their own damage count gets up to 100%+. And the arrows aren't kill moves. They're used to wreck the opponent.

I don't have trouble with either of them. I know the Snake matchup like the back of my hand. YOU are claiming that Snake is a bad character, which shoots your credibility out the window. Snake is an amazingly good character, 2nd (or arguably 3rd) in the game, and Metaknight's worst matchup after another Metaknight.

Snake relies seriously on strategizing in a game where things are fast paced. If he never gets time to do anything, he's going down, and going down hard. How he fares against a SPEEDSTER who is (allegedly) God tier better than anybody else does is beyond me. What's that? You'll strategize? Uh, no you won't, Meta Knight will beat you around to begin with, and even if you do strategize, he's just going to catch on and destroy your strategy.

SPAM IS ALWAYS EASY TO BEAT.

It's ALMOST always easy to beat.

If you know what your opponent is doing, you can punish it. It's when your opponent has a ridiculous moveset with an option for every scenario (Metaknight) that the game becomes unbalanced.

Meta Knight has no projectiles. He has to approach you with one of only a few moves. Use that to your advantage.

Pit spam is EASILY beatable by a good player that can powershield.

Yeah. Sure. Like Pit can't mess up your timing.

So your argument is actually that Sagemoon is a bad Pit because...he doesn't spam arrows as well as you.

Wow. Just...wow. No really. Just stop right now.

1) My argument is that Pit can hold up arrows. Sagemoon has some credit and opts for close range instead.
2) I don't spam arrows in the first place except to make a point. I am merely pointing out their ridiculous potential.

Are you INSANE?

Yeah right.

Every single person in this thread has said arrow spam is easy to thwart.

Which, of course it is not.

You just powershield it and approach anyway. Most characters have a method. Some have reflectosr. MK can just shield and run faster than the Pit can run away and keep powershielding. Peach can just dair the arrows. Everyone has some method.

Powershielding requires you don't mess up the timing at all. Oh, that's right: an arrow abuser can mess it up for you.

Reflectors are specific to characters to prevent projectiles from being altogether useless. Do not bring them into the argument.

Meta Knight is also a close range fighter. Beating arrow spam won't do him much good if he gets predicted. And he has only a few moves for approaching, so Pit will want him to do just that anyway.

DAir? Peach will be too busy getting shot to try it.....wait. DAir must be that downwards triple kick. She'll just get counterattacked.

The L button isn't common sense anymore?

And neither is how to beat spams not named Pit arrow abuse, apparently. Or beating Lucas's Up Smash.

Airdodge, hit the ground and SHIELD. If you get shot 4-5 times every time you approach Pit, you're doing it horribly, horribly wrong.

Again, Pit can screw up your approach by holding up arrows randomly.

Yeah. That's exactly what any good Pit player does.

The problem is that his defense isn't invincible. You can get through the arrow spam, and at close range he can't do anything unless you rush into his attacks.

At close range he can still hit you even if you don't rush him. You're screwing up your approach to dodge the arrows. And he has the potential to smack around an actually decent Meta Knight WITHOUT the arrows. So much for Meta Knight being broken.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJgcXIIPQU

This is you.

This is you "proving" Pit's arrows are broken.

I really don't think anymore needs to be said, and I encourage anyone reading this to watch the video.

Yes. Because it DOES prove how OTT Pit's arrows are.

Your opponents don't know how to shield.

And they don't know how to use Zelda's neutral B either. Then what's that arrow being bounced back at me? Zelda and Marth can't even use arrows on me. I'm the only one with arrows to begin with.

Don't feel rushed to respond to this, your mommy might get upset if you're on the computer too long.

You're just plain offensive. The end.

Is someone honestly trying to argue that pits arrow spam is more broken than metaknight?

What happened to the smash community? >_>

That's what I'd like to know.

I see no problem with Pit. Olimar can throw Pikmin at arrows to block them and we can have one pikmin block a few arrows... and D-tilt goes under striaght arrows and clanks some curved ones... I'm sure other non CF-esque characters have found a way to get past all this...

Pit can also use Mirror Shield to shake off the Pikmin. Or he can just ignore the Pikmin for the most part.

Yea, it's called a shield...

Which I already use, hello?

Master Knight is wrong. Pit's arrows suck.

You say Pit's arrows suck? You are saying by extension that everybody else's projectiles suck. And you're saying that a lot of people suck for losing to those same projectiles. Good job.

Yeah, but that takes time and you can get tricked if the Pit starts mindgaming with charging arrows, waiting for you to lower your shield, or if you're power shielding, you just might miss an arrow or two, so I'm not QUITE sure its reliable, but if you guys trust that it's reliable, then I will too.

I prefer Pikmin since they require no timing/mindgames.

True, but an opponent can just go after Olimar and kick his butt.

Pit's arrows aren't bad, annoying for sure. But if you're going to complain about a move being overpowered well pit's arrows is not even close to being the right choice.

Ya sure about that. I looked on the character list. I can think of only one or two other possibly more right choices.

Ankoku posted it first.

On the vid, he replied to me and confirmed it was wifi. With "little lag".

Lag always seems less noticeable when you're on the offense, because you're in control of your timing. Even if he's "defensively" using arrows, when it comes to who's attacking and having to avoid attacks, he's the one on offense, so of course it'd be hard to notice.

Attacking online is significantly easier than being on the defense and having to react to and time shields/defenses to work against attacks.



Yes.

And he supported it with proof - a vid of a wifi match.


2222good.

-----------

really, step back and look at it.

- "Pit's arrows are overpowered"
- Wifi
- projectiles in wifi = ???
- His examples supporting 'overpowered arrows' talk about airdodge (punishable via prediction), rolls (punishability via prediction), but fail to mention quick releases of shields on contact, or powershields (severely gimped with input lag)

it all makes sense now.

Projectiles can be dodged more easily when you can actually see them coming.

And Pit can just use any number of options if you so much as try to approach.

This is just stupid now... Pit>MK = WTF?

Pit's arrow spam < a lot of other spams = WTF?

He's obviously not part of the competitive community.

Gotta love random casuals dropping by high-leveled play discussions.

At first we thought he was a troll, then we realized "omg, he's actually at a low enough level of play that pit's arrows ARE godly for him"!

And then we laughed, a lot.

He even tried namedroping somebody who none of us knew about, so we checked his vids, another casual.

This was the funniest division from the thread so far.

Congratulations. You proved how mature you really are with that comment.

I'm not going to tear it apart sentence by sentence. You're not worth it.

arghhh who uses Pikachu's side-B as a direct attack like that!? ;.; It's so punishable.
The QA's were poorly done, not being aimed into the floor.
and i lol'd at Snake's amazing SH into C4.

The match was from a while ago.

Wow, that was a horrid Pikachu. Just watched the latest match. And the Snake, wow. I've never seen a Snake who didn't use uptilt in the entire match.

And you're the same person who criticizes me for criticizing using matches from a while ago. *sniffs* What's that sm- *realizes that a person named Hipahcracy is near him* Oh.

He and his friends suck.

Double dare me to do it again?

And you wonder why trolls like to mock you. Not that the trolls are decent people to begin with, but "no this, no that, whatever only, Final Destination." "This is top tier, this is mid tier, this is bottom tier", mocked by none other than the TR4Q statement.

SGD and his friends are actually decent people who do not troll, and do not pull some elitist claim that Pit's arrow spam is easy to beat. It is not. And if you tell me "no johns", then here's a challenge: beat a decent Grit on Bean Island in Advance Wars. And I want no "johns" about +1 Range or the map's terrain, you don't even have to move units into the attack range of indirects, while you are stuck having to be active against Pit to hope to shake off his arrows.

Case closed.

 

[Jacko]

MK vs Yoshi isn't even lol, MK has the clear advantage unless you can really get a fair spike out of the release grab 1/2 the time or more.

thats all I need to hear
(in response to Mmac's post)

 

[The Real Inferno]

Mmac how can you even begin to believe you have a claim in competitive Yoshi gaming if you DONT PLAY COMPETITIVELY WITH ANYONE. All your data and theories don't amount to crap if you can't prove it, it's just theorycraft. Give it up. And stop acting like we hate Yoshi. What people hate is other people *****ing like little hot topic emos about Yoshi. The good Yoshi's don't catch any flack. Nobody mocks Bwett. He's beast. In my competitive community nobody mocks Bojangle, nobody gets on -my- Yoshi's case. What are you?

 

[ColinJF]

Mmac actually decreased the chance of anybody taking him seriously by affiliating himself with the scrub side (pro ban) in this Meta Knight debate.

 

[Jacko]

Mmac actually decreased the chance of anybody taking him seriously by affiliating himself with the scrub side (pro ban) in this Meta Knight debate.

Idk if this was directed towards me but I am in no way in favor of banning metaknight, I'm just saying that the matchup between mk and yoshi is in mk's favor.

I think the problem with MK is that people aren't bothering to develop the metagame of other characters since MK is so easy to pick up. Therefore everyone picks up MK and think he is the best character instead of developing other character's metagames.

I read in some other thread that metaknight doesn't place well in Europe like he does here. Why? because people took time to explore other characters instead of everyone playing metaknight. Sure, metaknight has more strengths than weaknesses, but banning him isn't the answer, just work on the matchup and its easier than it seems.

 

[gantrain05]

ok so thanks for the ******** spam master knight, yes thats what it is, spam, because you don't know what the **** you are takling about, pits arrows broken? ok, maybe if your a noob and have never even touched a video game before in your life, and its just plain and simple FACT that falco has less cooldown on SH lasers than pit does on arrows, its all in the frames man, seriously, you look like a ******* making a post like that and arguing every point the way you are, your trying to sound smart but just come across as a ******* who doesn't know anything about competetive smash. FFA's are not a viable tournament play. and seriously man, everyone in those videos you posted are the scrubbiest of scrubs i've ever seen, im thinking that smash just isn't for you, at least not competetively.......unless you just like to give your money away like you probably have been doing. oh...and i just read further on....seriously pits arrows more broken than diddys bananas huh.....well you certainly have no idea about this game.....

 

[brinboy789]

lol, this is what Mmac is talking about. you guys dont give any evidence, you just go " MK wins". >_> evidence pl0x? and dont know much about this matchup, but i personally find snake alot harder then yoshi

 

[The Real Inferno]

brinboy the evience has been presented so many times it is utterly pointless to restate what can be looked up in a search without wasting time.

 

[Greenpoe]

Meta Knight isn't overpowered. This whole debate interestingly started after the tier list came out. Alot of people will try to use a higher tier character for what they perceive to be a better chance to win. Meta Knight tournament results are skewed because more people use meta-knight, so he obviously has more wins.

Tournament results are also skewed because of soft-bans becoming more wide spread.

 

[GofG]

Panda Edit: The Show Me Your News team just recently recorded a podcast with various SBR members in the style of a debate. The issue we were debating was, of course, whether or not to ban MK. Here is a temporary download link to the podcast: http://smyn.smashnexus.net/download.php?id=45 . I encourage everyone who has been debating in this thread, or wants to learn more about the issue, to listen to this podcast. It could definitely change what you think about MK. I'll be remaking the public poll on banning MK whenever we get the permanent download link up. I'm interested to see what people will think about this issue after listening to it. Show it to all of your friends too, so we can get people as educated as possible before voting on it again.

You will?


What happened to my internet fame?

I paid thirty dollars for premium membership, good sir, and already all of my special privileges are being taken away, such as having the exclusive right to a custom avatar!

My life sucks

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You will?


What happened to my internet fame?

I paid thirty dollars for premium membership, good sir, and already all of my special privileges are being taken away, such as having the exclusive right to a custom avatar!

My life sucks

You can blame that on the next person that posts here. Its totally his fault.

 

[peeup]

aww, sorry GofG, I didn't mean to...

 

[JackieRabbit5]

way to defend yoshi Mmac

the point is yoshi has the capability to do better than most other chars against MK, almost even...and its b/c of more than just the chaingrabs. There is alot of yoshi hate goin around i don't know why

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mmac actually decreased the chance of anybody taking him seriously by affiliating himself with the scrub side (pro ban) in this Meta Knight debate.

Really now?
So the anti ban side is fully of extremely logical, intelligent debaters.
not elitists who say MK is not ban worthy just because they so.
Oh and OS is a scrub. Definitely a scrub. Totally.

tl;dr: Stop being ********.

 

[adumbrodeus]

They don't. That's just stupid. Falco's lasers would have to have godly cooldown and they just don't.

ROLF!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

The entire point of short-hopping the lasers is that it cancels that generally signifigant cooldown.

Watch this vid of short-hopped double lasers.

Before you even THINK ABOUT talking about the brawl competative scene you should at least find out about our most elementary ATs.

Wow. So you skip my fights with him on purpose.

If it's a FFA, it's not relevant because there are completely different tactical considerations in FFA, it's a totally different metagame, so it's not relevant.

If they're 1v1s, post them.

Let me guess: because the arrow abusers don't bother to strategize?

Of course not. Any arrow abuser worth his salt will be strategizing.


It just doesn't offer as much tactical advantage as options that other characters have do. Like Marth's dtilt which is a frametrap, or falco's short-hopped laser.

I have fought him. He does i fact, ot suck.

If you have trouble with him, then you suck. We've seen the vids, he simply is not on the level of most people here. Even me, let alone people like Mew2King and others that can be namedropped here.

The arrows can be held to mess up timing. And if you're too busy powershielding or spotdodging, say hello to a lot of damage or a broken shield.

Reaction time is about 7 frames. It takes longer then that for the arrow to arrive from release. You're not going to be powershielding/spot-dodging in a rythemn, you'll be doing it on reaction. So, no, at reasonably high levels of play, holding the arrow does nothing.

And an arrow abuser is not going to be ready to fight at a moment's notice when? Oh, that's right: only if they're brain-dead.

Of course they're not, but I'm NOT talking about the arrow-abuser himself or herself. I am refering to pit's subpar close-range game, especially compared to characters like MK.

There aren't even 10 characters who have a reflector or absorber. This is including Pit himself and 2 or 3 clone characters. And how do you have 7 frame reaction time, that's just way too insane. That barely amounts to 0.12 seconds. You're making an obvious lie.

Look at what I said, shield is fine for this.



Me personally? Not yet. Mine's more like 11 frames, I'm working on improving it, but I'm not there yet.

But you don't get it, that's part of how you can't even comprehend the game on the level of play we're talking about here. You can't even concieve of a person being able to react in .12 seconds, whereas at this level of play, IT'S NORMAL.

I'll be out of cooldown before they get to attack. The end.

You saying it doesn't make it true. If you want, you can use hacks to check the frame data. You'll find that powershielding in general allows you to recover several frames before the attacker recovers, with rare exceptions (Lucario's fsmash for example, which has basically no recovery time).

Understand the point of projectiles generally speaking. They are meant to force your opponent to approach so you can punish them, and as a zoning tool for set-ups. They are not meant to keep the opponent away forever.

Jump + instant airdodge. You learn it against Pokey's laser.

However, Pit can mess up your timing easily. Falco can't.

Obviously I know that, but falco can short-hop double laser, which is signifigantly more difficult to dodge.


I already pointed out that you can react to the arrows being released, you can react to falco's lasers as well.

Meta Knight's shieldstun is also garbage if you're going to suggest a weakness. So silence about Meta Knight.

Lol, it's not about shieldstun, MK has an obscene spacing game, he really doesn't need much shieldstun.


Regardless, it's not a pit-specific weakness, as I said earlier in this post, power-shielding almost always has less post-lag then the attack that's powershielded. It would be pointless if it didn't confer a frame advantage.

All that I'm pointing out is that the combination that you're suggesting DOES NOT WORK. Your opponent will be out of lag well before you, and he'll punish you for using the arrows too close.

Game runs fine as long as there isn't some random server hiccups.

Even on a green connection, there's several frames of latency. When you're dealing with reaction times of around 10 frames, it makes a very large difference.

And I scoff at those who would evaluate FFAs as jokes without at least taking a looksie at what happened.

I'm not scoffing. FFA is a very different enviroment then the one that we're discussing. Very different tools and stratagies are broken in FFA, so it's not even worth bringing into the discussion because it's IRRELEVANT.

And yet Pit is above middle tier on a tier list built on how many wins the character has obtained, when he has limited players, plenty of his representatives being amateurs from what I hear, and a fairly commonly used hard counter. Why's that ya think?

The problem with Pit is that he breaks the counterpick system the exact opposite way Meta Knight supposedly does: he abuses it. You pick a counter because he wants you to. And you approach him because he wants you to. If he's practiced against potential counters, you can't catch him because what you want to do just gets you beaten around--but oh, that's right, you have no other alternatives, they'll just be beaten down. The counterpick system in general bugs me because of issues like this, but Pit is downright blatant about it.

Pit is only one of a number of characters that force an approach. That's actually factored into the match-ups and part of how we figure out how a high-leveled game will develop. So, it doesn't break the system, it's part of it.

Meta Knight is at least only truly troublesome at close range. In a game where you're supposed to be able to deal with close range characters to begin with. Pit, nuh uh. He ***** you from long range. Ness and Samus never did that and Fox already had a Reflector move as early as the first game. Why should Pit?

The problem is, there's no reliable way to keep him out of that range. And then he dtilt/ftilt/fair/bair camps you with his long disjointed hitboxes.

Lasers can be jumped (except Fox's blaster, but THEY don't cause flinching so Fox leaves himself open if he spams it, and it's worth taking 10% of damage to gain the advantage in my book). TL's projectiles...you've had 3 games to know how to deal with any of them. Bananas, I'll just grab and throw out of the way where Diddy can't use them. Turnips are slow. And arrows? Whose arrows? Link's? I can just jump them.

They can be jumped, but only if you full-hop, and not if Falco tall lasers. Full-hopping is a BAD position generally speaking, because most characters do better below their opponents then above them.

Fox... short-hop your lasers. There, now they're lagless.

They're slightly different each game, reguardless, if there are ways to deal with them the competative scene will find it first time around, like with pit.

Diddy won't let you do that. Please watch this.

Turnips have signifigant stun, that's why they're useable.

Snake relies seriously on strategizing in a game where things are fast paced. If he never gets time to do anything, he's going down, and going down hard. How he fares against a SPEEDSTER who is (allegedly) God tier better than anybody else does is beyond me. What's that? You'll strategize? Uh, no you won't, Meta Knight will beat you around to begin with, and even if you do strategize, he's just going to catch on and destroy your strategy.

Different characters have different ways of winning. Snake's way of winning is forcing aproach with grenades (which, when held, also screw up a lot of other stuff), and punishing with up-tilt and ftilt. Basically, he's a defensive character with the ability to control the stage very well (as opposed to Marth, who is defensive, but can punish everything and it's mother with either dancing blades or dolphin slash, but doesn't really have stage control). That allows him to do very well in the game.

Oddly enough, the game gives preference to this sort of character, but MK's overall brokeness overcomes this.

Meta Knight has no projectiles. He has to approach you with one of only a few moves. Use that to your advantage.

Yes, that's how you play. The point is, MK's ridiculous spacing game makes it very difficult to take advantage of that.

1) My argument is that Pit can hold up arrows. Sagemoon has some credit and opts for close range instead.
2) I don't spam arrows in the first place except to make a point. I am merely pointing out their ridiculous potential.

If they're that good WHY THE HECK AREN'T YOU SPAMMING THEM?!

Please, spam them.

Powershielding requires you don't mess up the timing at all. Oh, that's right: an arrow abuser can mess it up for you.

The timing isn't particularly difficult, and people can respond to arrows on reaction for the most part, it's not hard.

DAir? Peach will be too busy getting shot to try it.....wait. DAir must be that downwards triple kick. She'll just get counterattacked.

Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G10po6BB_vg

And neither is how to beat spams not named Pit arrow abuse, apparently. Or beating Lucas's Up Smash.

Lucas's upsmash has a pretty long start-up and is very punishable.

Don't abuse it or you'll get killed.

Arrows are safer by far.

At close range he can still hit you even if you don't rush him. You're screwing up your approach to dodge the arrows. And he has the potential to smack around an actually decent Meta Knight WITHOUT the arrows. So much for Meta Knight being broken.

Pit has nowhere near as much melee range, pit lacks the overall laglessness, pit doesn't have a god-tier approach (tornado), pit doesn't have a nearly ungimpable ^b. Pit is somewhat like metaknight, but they took out what actually made him good.

And they don't know how to use Zelda's neutral B either. Then what's that arrow being bounced back at me? Zelda and Marth can't even use arrows on me. I'm the only one with arrows to begin with.

...

The point is their ratio should have been a LOT better.

You say Pit's arrows suck? You are saying by extension that everybody else's projectiles suck. And you're saying that a lot of people suck for losing to those same projectiles. Good job.

Projectiles don't win the game, well some do, but only in certain match-ups. They don't have the power you believe them to have.

And you wonder why trolls like to mock you. Not that the trolls are decent people to begin with, but "no this, no that, whatever only, Final Destination." "This is top tier, this is mid tier, this is bottom tier", mocked by none other than the TR4Q statement.

SGD and his friends are actually decent people who do not troll, and do not pull some elitist claim that Pit's arrow spam is easy to beat. It is not. And if you tell me "no johns", then here's a challenge: beat a decent Grit on Bean Island in Advance Wars. And I want no "johns" about +1 Range or the map's terrain, you don't even have to move units into the attack range of indirects, while you are stuck having to be active against Pit to hope to shake off his arrows.

Case closed.

You have never played anyone signifigant to show you how wrong you are about this. Play M2K, play Praxis, Overswarm, play just about anyone on this thread IRL, and you'll see that everything you thought about the power of pit's arrows is WRONG.

It's not elitist to say that we have PROVEN counters for Pit's arrow spam.

It's not elitist to say that certain characters OBJECTIVELY perform better then others.

Just like it's not elitist to say that Grit performs well on Bean Island.


But the game engine is different, different things are overpowered in Smash then in Advance Wars.

 

[ShadowLink84]

close off this thread with red tape. Someone was ***** and murdered. /bad joke

 

[Tenki]

You have never played anyone signifigant to show you how wrong you are about this. Play M2K, play Praxis, Overswarm, play just about anyone on this thread IRL, and you'll see that everything you thought about the power of pit's arrows is WRONG.

It's not elitist to say that we have PROVEN counters for Pit's arrow spam.

It's not elitist to say that certain characters OBJECTIVELY perform better then others.

Just like it's not elitist to say that Grit performs well on Bean Island.


But the game engine is different, different things are overpowered in Smash then in Advance Wars.

The main problem is that he backs his projectile statements with wifi examples.

If someone is spamming projectiles offline, it's like:
a - You see the first projectile come out and shield
b - Projectile hits your shield
c - You release shield immediately
d - You walk forward and wait for next projectile to come out.
e - repeat from A, with powershields as a bonus.

If someone is spamming projectiles online, it's like:
a - You predict the first projectile come out and shield.
b - Projectile hits your shield
c - Delay, to account for input lag
d - You release shield later
e - You walk forward. Your opponent may have already started his next projectile.
f - You either correctly predict the next projectile's timing and shield in time or you get hit.
g - Repeat from C, with/without shield

He makes some valid claims about being able to charge arrows and punish airdodge, spotdodge, roll, all of that stuff. It's possible, but the most efficient counter to any projectile, shield, is horribly nerfed online.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The main problem is that he backs his projectile statements with wifi examples.

If someone is spamming projectiles offline, it's like:
a - You see the first projectile come out and shield
b - Projectile hits your shield
c - You release shield immediately
d - You walk forward and wait for next projectile to come out.
e - repeat from A, with powershields as a bonus.

If someone is spamming projectiles online, it's like:
a - You predict the first projectile come out and shield.
b - Projectile hits your shield
c - Delay, to account for input lag
d - You release shield later
e - You walk forward. Your opponent may have already started his next projectile.
f - You either correctly predict the next projectile's timing and shield in time or you get hit.
g - Repeat from C, with/without shield

He makes some valid claims about being able to charge arrows and punish airdodge, spotdodge, roll, all of that stuff. It's possible, but the most efficient counter to any projectile, shield, is horribly nerfed online.

Which is why I made the point that wifi is a different metagame then offline.


The attackers advantage is very well-established in wifi, with the amount of latency deciding the level of this advantage.


Just like in FFA, the metagame is somewhat different, and our bannings are not directly comparable to what is broken online.

close off this thread with red tape. Someone was ***** and murdered. /bad joke

Oh, I wasn't THAT harsh. Was I?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh, I wasn't THAT harsh. Was I?

Passive aggressive people are always scary.