Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Mew2King]

dsf doing better with MK? no. DSF copied my entire MK style the day after CH3. He does most things that I do thanks to playing me for so many hours, yet when we did our teams matches in the finals of hobo he did much better using Snake. He also 2 stocked Azen's lucario in tourney with snake, barely lost a diddy vs snake match, then lost a really close mk ditto, even though his snake was ****** azens mk in teams meaning his snake would have probably done better.

ether - come over my house, i live in Cinnaminson, my aim is oovideogamegodoo. I don't do anything fancy w/ snake, i just stick w/ simple effective things.

OS you bring up how you do vs DSF over and over and over. Obviously MK is going to do better vs Rob than snake is, considering rob is supposed to be a snake counter or something. Also, DSF is HORRIBLE at Snake vs rob matchup. Before he fought you, he lost to some random rob player at a different tourney with snake, only to 3 stock that guy in losers bracket with DDD. I think that's the same tourney where he 6-0d Forward later in the grand finals, although I might be mistaken and it could be a different tourney. Regardless, using that example so often is not good. And yes, obviously you will do better vs some ppl using MK than rob that is because MK is a better character welcome to fighting games (also Rob is overrated, he is not the 6th best character at all).


edit - i don't practice either, brawl is not a game that requires practicing, at least not much. You just learn from experience. Practicing has extremely little effect in brawl compared to melee

 

[Mortimer]

It seems that a few more dubious votes have been made since the last time I ran the script (when it was 14-3 Yes-No suspect votes), but it's still very negligible. The 4chan hypothesis appears to be bogus. Nevertheless, notice the rhetorical effect when Overswarm says 'there was a brief 4chan effort to vote "no" to show us "tourney***s".' He is cleverly suggesting that good players (tourney***s as he puts it) are the ones voting to ban Meta Knight, as opposed to leagues of scrubs, which is the actual case.

There was a minor 4chan campaign to vote no, but I think it was just a single thread that was locked pretty quickly. Good to know it didn't seem to have a noticeable effect.

Can you adjust the script to check post count instead of join date? I haven't a clue if it'd show anything different, but it'd be interesting to see.

 

[ProBrawler]

Why doesn't M2K make a "combo-vid" on how to beat MK? But in all seriousness, the Olimar/MK match-up is in favor of MK not only because of the gimping, but MK also widely outprioritizes Olimar and is able to remove any attached pikmin w/ ease and minimal lag time.

 

[Overswarm]

dsf doing better with MK? no. DSF copied my entire MK style the day after CH3. He does most things that I do thanks to playing me for so many hours, yet when we did our teams matches in the finals of hobo he did much better using Snake. He also 2 stocked Azen's lucario in tourney with snake, barely lost a diddy vs snake match, then lost a really close mk ditto, even though his snake was ****** azens mk in teams meaning his snake would have probably done better.

ether - come over my house, i live in Cinnaminson, my aim is oovideogamegodoo. I don't do anything fancy w/ snake, i just stick w/ simple effective things.

OS you bring up how you do vs DSF over and over and over. Obviously MK is going to do better vs Rob than snake is, considering rob is supposed to be a snake counter or something. Also, DSF is HORRIBLE at Snake vs rob matchup. Before he fought you, he lost to some random rob player at a different tourney with snake, only to 3 stock that guy in losers bracket with DDD. I think that's the same tourney where he 6-0d Forward later in the grand finals, although I might be mistaken and it could be a different tourney. Regardless, using that example so often is not good. And yes, obviously you will do better vs some ppl using MK than rob that is because MK is a better character welcome to fighting games (also Rob is overrated, he is not the 6th best character at all).

I don't think you read my post properly.

I did better with MK.

I can't play my main because MK destroys him. MK is the best character in the game and a hard counter. That's okay. I'll just switch mains.

Who can I play?

Well, some people say Snake is doing well... but MKs are beating Snakes.

Who can I use against Metaknight?!

Hell with it, I'll just MK ditto.

Who do I need to secondary?

Oh, I see. No one.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't think you read my post properly.

I did better with MK.

I can't play my main because MK destroys him. MK is the best character in the game and a hard counter. That's okay. I'll just switch mains.

Who can I play?

Well, some people say Snake is doing well... but MKs are beating Snakes.

Who can I use against Metaknight?!

Hell with it, I'll just MK ditto.

Who do I need to secondary?

Oh, I see. No one.

Which big OOS tournies have you won with that MK again?

 

[brinboy789]

Why doesn't M2K make a "combo-vid" on how to beat MK? But in all seriousness, the Olimar/MK match-up is in favor of MK not only because of the gimping, but MK also widely outprioritizes Olimar and is able to remove any attached pikmin w/ ease and minimal lag time.

he made an tips to beat MK thread. close enough
and im pretty sure olimars pikmin have amazing priority, especially his uair (or so ive heard), so i think that MK doesnt outprioritizes him...or at least not widely.
and any char that has an attack that hits all around him ( D3's nair) can get rid of all pikmin

 

[Minwu]

MK does not have to be Akuma. He achieves the same purpose if he has no equal, not just in matchups. You can say that Brawl already has few characters as it is, but the usage of those characters is what matters more.


Not to say that Meta Knight's Meta Game (sorry) has advanced that far. Yet.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I'd like to point this out about the results...

Many of the people who voted NO, actually just want to wait a little, so do we count them?

 

[XienZo]

If they have solid ground beneath their feet, Olimar has a an arguably slight advantage.
When they don't, MK has a huge advantage.
When Olimar is above MK, MK has slight advantage.
When MK is above Olimar, Olimar has huge advantage.

 

[Gea]

Peach is so underrated D:

She does very well against Oli/DDD/Rob, fyi.

Er... very well as in evenish on DDD and ROB? Not that I want to get into that here, really.

 

[Overswarm]

Which big OOS tournies have you won with that MK again?

None, I cancelled my EC plans when I realized I didn't want to play MK.

 

[fkacyan]

None, I cancelled my EC plans when I realized I didn't want to play MK.

Your MK is hardly a judge of anything, then.

 

[Espy Rose]

he made an tips to beat MK thread. close enough
and im pretty sure olimars pikmin have amazing priority, especially his uair (or so ive heard), so i think that MK doesnt outprioritizes him...or at least not widely.
and any char that has an attack that hits all around him ( D3's nair) can get rid of all pikmin

That thread was double-edged you know.

It told anyone who sucked with MK what to look out for, as well as all the other character mains what to punish.

So that thread didn't do anything more but inform both sides about what to punish and what to avoid.

 

[QUIVO]

As I remember, that tournament happened towards the beginning of MK becoming the dominating factor he currently is. Don't blame OS for being human. He didn't prophesy the coming problems: so what. He still was one of the first people to realize what MK would become.

O, and you've done nothing to counter the actual arguments of the pro-ban side. Epic success.

lol, i don't want to argue about it. I know why you guys want to, and i have my reasons why i don't want to. There's pretty much no way of me even trying to convince you, and vice versa. It's a hopeless cause.

The only thing that would end this is if more people started winning without MK. Yes, MK's a good character. He's top tier... Of course he's going to win tournaments. I don't want to argue about this either, so I'm dropping the whole for/against ban thing.

Anyway, I don't know how to compare midwest to the other regions.. but MK doesn't exactly win tournaments here unless you are vidjo. IIRC it's been mainly Anther winning, with a bunch of runner ups for 2nd/3rd. OS is saying MK wins tournaments, that's true for other regions, but not here when I was checking results. (I don't know about recently, i dont think there's been a MWC event lately and i just don't pay attention too much).

Also, when DSF came here... That's fine you did well against him with MK. Good for you. I don't recall you beating him with your MK vs Snake, but that's great you did well in the mk ditto.

 

[Mew2King]

I don't think you read my post properly.

I did better with MK.

I can't play my main because MK destroys him. MK is the best character in the game and a hard counter. That's okay. I'll just switch mains.

Who can I play?

Well, some people say Snake is doing well... but MKs are beating Snakes.

Who can I use against Metaknight?!

Hell with it, I'll just MK ditto.

Who do I need to secondary?

Oh, I see. No one.

you use rob and mk, if you use those two characters, yes mk ditto is better, but rob still handles lots of matchups well. It is your choice who to use, I don't really care. Marths are beating Sheiks in melee, but that doesn't change the fact that Sheik ***** marth in melee 65/35 or 60/40. Marth is just a much more common character in the past few years, it doesn't make him a better character though. He is better vs space animals, and on some stages vs Peach. Most other matchups I prefer Sheik on. Fox I use sometimes for fox dittos, gay stages, and teams. I don't need to, I just want to. I have yet to fight a Marth that beats my sheik the majority of the time, and only azen even takes matches off of me in that ever. I could just master fox and not need to ever use another character, but for some reason I have always been bad at fox vs falco match (comparatively at least), so I picked up marth for falco. If you knew about melee history, you would also know that the other (and primary) reason that i changed mains to marth was because my fox melee controller broke near the end of 2006 just before mlg vegas.

 

[KevinM]

None, I cancelled my EC plans when I realized I didn't want to play MK.

More like scrubswarm.

 

[infomon]

and im pretty sure olimars pikmin have amazing priority, especially his uair (or so ive heard), so i think that MK doesnt outprioritizes him...or at least not widely.

Priority is complicated, I don't think you understand it (no offense), actually Olimar's aerials (except Nair) have weak priority in one sense because they can clash; the Pikmin's hitbox can be negated by any offending hitbox, whereas the vast majority of other characters' aerials don't clash and can't have their hitbox cancelled (unless they hit a shield or invincible opponent). Although Olimar's aerials are fast and disjointed, which gives the perception that they have high priority, but it's misleading at best to say that Olimar's pikmin have "amazing priority".

 

[ProBrawler]

One last note on the Olimar match-up: One of Olimar's best strengths is the speed at which his attacks come out. But MK's attacks come out either just as fast or faster. i.e. Dsmash

 

[Mew2King]

down smash actually comes out on frame 5, while MKs down tilt and F tilt come out on frame 3. Up tilt is 8, up smash is 8, grab is 6, up B is 5. I have not tested anything of olimars. Snakes F tilt is 4, and jab is 3.

 

[Lucarioowl]

no mk is a character and bannning him limits and hinders many mains out there plus its fun watching some one playing mk and pwning him cuz you got experience on all mks lol its a free win in my book my2cents

 

[Lucarioowl]

just cam into lol and im leaving now cheers and beers if any wants a brawl sometime hit me up

 

[BentoBox]

Er... very well as in evenish on DDD and ROB? Not that I want to get into that here, really.

Yeah, evenish.

She combos big characters with ease. Though it is no absolute proof, look up Excel's vids on YT to get a glimpse at what she's capable of. I just find it funny how people go haywire when Azen counterpicks Peach agaisnt a DDD, and another agaisnt a ROB, when she -does- do very well against said characters. It's no **** matchup, but the same can be said about MK vs Snake ;].

And yeah, this is off-topic xD.

 

[salaboB]

More like scrubswarm.

Anyone who doesn't play as MK because people john about how little skill it takes are scrubs and are listening to other scrubs.

Overswarm switched to MK when he determined that was his best chance to win -- that is not the definition of a scrub. I'm uncertain what not going to a tournament because you've decided you won't enjoy it counts as.

Course, that's only if you care about Sirlin...don't know where else you'd be getting scrub from, though.

 

[Gea]

Yeah, evenish.

She combos big characters with ease. Though it is no absolute proof, look up Excel's vids on YT to get a glimpse at what she's capable of. I just find it funny how people go haywire when Azen counterpicks Peach agaisnt a DDD, and another agaisnt a ROB, when she -does- do very well against said characters. It's no **** matchup, but the same can be said about MK vs Snake ;].

And yeah, this is off-topic xD.

Hey, I'm a Peach main. I know what's up Bento.

dair to dair... to dair...

 

[Inui]

Well, some people say Snake is doing well... but MKs are beating Snakes.

Not here LOL. Snakes consistently beat the top MKs.

 

[ProBrawler]

Anyone who doesn't play as MK because people john about how little skill it takes are scrubs and are listening to other scrubs.

Overswarm switched to MK when he determined that was his best chance to win -- that is not the definition of a scrub.

Course, that's only if you care about Sirlin...don't know where else you'd be getting scrub from, though.

I actually don't agree with this. The reason I want MK banned is more because of everyone switching to him than his match-ups. I would love it if everyone who mained MK after the tier list came out couldn't play him, but that's obviously not possible. I prefer to stick with my main regardless of the situation. Whether or not MK is banned, I'll find a way to win with Zelda/Sheik. But even if I win, I'm tired of only beating MKs to get there, and slots 2-10 (hyperbole) being MK. So basically I'm alienating those on the side I'm on I guess, lol. Sry. =P

 

[Metro Knight]

So, how do you explain MK having 3 times as many wins as Snake? Why were the tournament results asked to be taken down? The fact that the public is not allowed to see Ankoku's friend, because of this thread and other threads like it, make me think you guys against the ban are full of ****. I hope people start hosting more MK is banned tournaments.

 

[KevinM]

Anyone who doesn't play as MK because people john about how little skill it takes are scrubs and are listening to other scrubs.

Overswarm switched to MK when he determined that was his best chance to win -- that is not the definition of a scrub. I'm uncertain what not going to a tournament because you've decided you won't enjoy it counts as.

Course, that's only if you care about Sirlin...don't know where else you'd be getting scrub from, though.

I was talking about how he doesn't want to go to the tournament on the east coast because he didn't want to play metaknight.

I don't care what Sirlin's definition is, people understand, stop attacking the usage of one word as the entire basis of your arguement, everyone else on SWF seems to understand the basic use of the word, and/or can use context to figure out why it was used.

 

[QUIVO]

I actually don't agree with this. The reason I want MK banned is more because of everyone switching to him than his match-ups. I would love it if everyone who mained MK after the tier list came out couldn't play him, but that's obviously not possible. I prefer to stick with my main regardless of the situation. Whether or not MK is banned, I'll find a way to win with Zelda/Sheik. But even if I win, I'm tired of only beating MKs to get there, and slots 2-10 (hyperbole) being MK. So basically I'm alienating those on the side I'm on I guess, lol. Sry. =P

look at melee... SOOOO many people mained Fox. I was so sick of playing Fox dittos...

That's why when Brawl came out I wanted to main a character you didn't see much. Luckily TL wasn't the top tier he was supposed to be.

 

[Espy Rose]

I actually don't agree with this. The reason I want MK banned is more because of everyone switching to him than his match-ups. I would love it if everyone who mained MK after the tier list came out couldn't play him, but that's obviously not possible. I prefer to stick with my main regardless of the situation. Whether or not MK is banned, I'll find a way to win with Zelda/Sheik. But even if I win, I'm tired of only beating MKs to get there, and slots 2-10 (hyperbole) being MK. So basically I'm alienating those on the side I'm on I guess, lol. Sry. =P

I can relate almost perfectly to this. Except of course, switch Zelda/Sheik with Sonic.

 

[Mew2King]

I still say the majority of ppl that want MK banned is cuz

1) they lost to MK before, which is bound to happen seeing how common he is
2) they don't fight tornado well

 

[Inui]

So, how do you explain MK having 3 times as many wins as Snake? Why were the tournament results asked to be taken down? The fact that the public is not allowed to see Ankoku's friend, because of this thread and other threads like it, make me think you guys against the ban are full of ****. I hope people start hosting more MK is banned tournaments.

Meta Knight is the best character.

Other regions apparently aren't as good as Atlantic North at preventing Meta Knight from winning, despite AL having the best MKs. >_>;

 

[LuigiKing]

OK, no one will even read my post, let alone care about my opinion on the matter.... but hey it can't hurt.

Honestly I think this is getting out of hand. Making personal attacks on people you have most likely never met in person over smashboards is ridiculous. This whole Inui/M2K vs. OS/Lee thing is making all of you look bad, and I think you should just take a break and cool it guys. Whether or not you think MK should be banned, whether or not you think the other person is being a d***, you're still being one yourselves. Now I'm going to attempt to contribute to the argument in a reasonable fashion.

@OS - Honestly I'm on your side with this one, just look at the sig. I think the EC and WC are two TOTALLY different metagames at this point though, and you need to realize that. On the EC, it really doesn't look like MK is broken, definitely not enough to warrant a ban... at least going simply by the numbers, but here on the West Coast MK is winning everything. People on the east need to realize that people here have stopped going to tourneys because non MKs aren't winning... like, at all. At least in WA. MK is taking the fun out of the game. In fact, 2 out of 3 (yes, that makes me a scrub) of the tournaments I have went to I have lost to MK in winners bracket. I would have been top 3 at the last one had I not been ***** by MK, and I main Luigi

Ermm.... what else to say. I think a soft ban for MK would be great right now. Primarily because everyone here has stopped having fun playing the game at all, mostly because MK shuts down all of mid AND high tier. You cannot play a mid/high tier against a good MK... it doesn't work. Maybe I haven't seen the light yet, maybe MK is beatable if I just get better. Or maybe no? I honestly am not going to pick up a secondary just to combat MK, because even though Luigi gets utterly destroyed, I have too much fun playing him. I guess if I can't start beating MKs I am done with competitive brawl, because its either I don't have fun because I pick up someone like Snake for at least a fighting chance, or I don't have fun because all I do is play MK dittos.

I don't think any of my post was coherent or anything now that I think about it. All rambling, but that is all anyone does here anyway. Blah.

 

[PhantomX]

Why do you think any of the problems have to arise with tornado. If you were gonna list any one move there, it should've been Shuttle Loop.

 

[Espy Rose]

Last two posts are awesome.

I honestly think MK is one of the main reasons, if not the only one, that's causing so much tension in the Brawl forums.

 

[ProBrawler]

In my opinion, the majority of anti-MK sentiment stems from:

The relatively short learning curve of MK which often leads to instant gratification and success and...
The questionable tactics that MKs use and are sometimes successful with, hence M2K's "petition" to ban ledge stalling.

 

[Mew2King]

Boss beat Forte, I think twice (not sure if it was twice or not, but i think it was) Luigi vs MK. Jab up B at 40% apparently kills.

btw i found the best strat with GW is to ledge camp with nair, too bad GW isn't as popular, his ledge camp is just as gay. Also, Gw's up B makes you invincible starting from frame 5, for many frames after that, so it's not hard if you're smart to stay ledge camping.

shuttle loop doesn't increase much with %, the main thing about shuttle loop is the knockback it has at low %. At high %, it's actually a rather weak move compared to most of MK's other "kill" moves. Basically, if you DI it you're fine. Shuttle loop only does 8 damage, so if it's dodged then MK can be attacked. If MK just waits for an air dodge and fairs though, you can do 10% with no risk of being punished (same with most characters, just do an attack as you fall with them, not something that lags a lot).

Also, about MK vs Snake, if MK up Bs snake out of Snake's up B, then MK takes 6%, while Snake takes 8%, and that's if the shuttle loop is at max power. If you DI it, it isn't a big deal at all. So now MK has 6% and Snake has 8%, and considering weights, that's about even.

 

[QUIVO]

If we were to ban MK, there'd probably be a lot of Snakes and everyone would want him banned...

Luigi has to jab twice i think, step forward slightly, and up b. I didn't know it could kill at like 40 though. I was thinking 50-60%

And i thought you hated ledge camping m2k?

 

[LuigiKing]

Boss beat Forte, I think twice (not sure if it was twice or not, but i think it was) Luigi vs MK. Jab up B at 40% apparently kills.

Haha I know, MK dies off the top of FD at 43, so 43 - Jab(3) = 40% kill. Fsmash angled up kills at ~58% if I recall.

Boss beating Forte is just boss being freaking awesome. He also knows the match up incredibly well... I have won against a few decent MKs along the way, usually not sets though. And yes, it is usually because I am in the right place at the right time to punish MKs tiny bits of lag for a sub 50% kill... Hard to do that every stock though. We (the Luigi boards) have decided the match up is roughly 70:30 MK... maybe 75:25.

 

[Gea]

You can also weakhit nair to ping for the kill on Meta, I believe.