Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Ryan-K]

brinboy snake gets beat by ddd and falco pretty solidly, and maybe pika

also leeharris please shut up you dirtbag texas has nothing on EC

 

[Ozzie23]

It is too freaking early to say.

 

[brinboy789]

brinboy snake gets beat by ddd and falco pretty solidly, and maybe pika

also leeharris please shut up you dirtbag texas has nothing on EC

i heard D3 was neutral, give or take 5 and how is falco a counter? snake can duck below lazor spam lol. pika...maybe, thunderbolt ftl?

 

[momochuu]

i heard D3 was neutral, give or take 5 and how is falco a counter? snake can duck below lazor spam lol. pika...maybe, thunderbolt ftl?

Pikachu can chaingrab him, Glide Toss grenades, Thunder him out of cypher, and camp as hard as he can.

Falco, I dunno.

 

[salaboB]

I've been coloring my post for a very long time. I do it because I like the color blue, and not for attention.

See? I just did it again.

That was my point. Lame is in the eye of the beholder, and your belief of banning characters being lame is an unconvincing point against it.

 

[Ryan-K]

falco can chaingrab him and when he up bs he is almost always dead because spike always hits him out of it

falco can also negate nade spam with shine and lasers and has a really strong camp game

 

[momochuu]

That was my point. Lame is in the eye of the beholder, and your belief of banning characters being lame is an unconvincing point against it.

Oh. You got me.

*Colors Post*

 

[brinboy789]

falco can chaingrab him and when he up bs he is almost always dead because spike always hits him out of it

falco can also negate nade spam with shine and lasers and has a really strong camp game

falco can CG anybody. good snakes always use cypher all the way up to avoid gimping and getting grabbed. yea he can negategrenades but his camping game is destroyed from snakes crawl

 

[PhantomX]

Snake can get CG to spiked... which puts him below the stage >_>

And what's with this recent bout of region-whoring going on? :\

 

[Ryan-K]

snake doesnt always have the option of coming from above especially after cg to spike

falco can still camp snake because snake will be at a severe disadvantage if he tries to approach, and shine beats grenades and if he tries mortar slide he can get grabbed

snake can crawl but he can't do anything out of crawl except dtilt and makes himself vulnerable to dair or w/e

 

[brinboy789]

snake doesnt always have the option of coming from above especially after cg to spike

falco can still camp snake because snake will be at a severe disadvantage if he tries to approach, and shine beats grenades and if he tries mortar slide he can get grabbed

snake can crawl but he can't do anything out of crawl except dtilt and makes himself vulnerable to dair or w/e

yea, CG to spike is bad for snake, but cant you airdodge to let go of the cypher and get safely onto the stage? takes good timing, but its possible. yea shine beats grenages, but not properly cooked ones, and grabbing mortar slide is hella hard >.< and yea snake can crawl toward falco if falco is laser spamming...snake can crawl toward him...and shield lasers then shield grab? for the snake approach its mortar slide if falcos not spamming lasers and crawl and whoever has better mindgames/luck?/ or use dtilt and hope that it works.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

into the fire pit with him!!

 

[PhantomX]

You're only gonna make it high enough to dodge back onto the stage if they mess up. Usually Snake's only option is c4 back onstage. You can't crouch the entire game if you plan on getting anywhere, and when you stand Falco's gatling combo does some serious damage.

 

[Ryan-K]

yea, CG to spike is bad for snake, but cant you airdodge to let go of the cypher and get safely onto the stage? takes good timing, but its possible. yea shine beats grenages, but not properly cooked ones, and grabbing mortar slide is hella hard >.< and yea snake can crawl toward falco if falco is laser spamming...snake can crawl toward him...and shield lasers then shield grab? for the snake approach its mortar slide if falcos not spamming lasers and crawl and whoever has better mindgames/luck?/ or use dtilt and hope that it works.

no you cant air dodge in time

um shine does beat grenades....falco shoots his reflector LOL

grabbing mortar slide is mad easy just shield

why the hell would you laser is snake is crawling right next to you, you would be ******** to do that, plus he makes himself vulnerable to being grabbed if he tries dtilt or just tries to crawl to you

mortar slide isnt that safe against falco because falco can just shield and if he ends up close to falco he can get grabbed , if he ends up far falco just starts spamming again

 

[brinboy789]

no you cant air dodge in time

um shine does beat grenades....falco shoots his reflector LOL

grabbing mortar slide is mad easy just shield

why the hell would you laser is snake is crawling right next to you, you would be ******** to do that, plus he makes himself vulnerable to being grabbed if he tries dtilt or just tries to crawl to you

mortar slide isnt that safe against falco because falco can just shield and if he ends up close to falco he can get grabbed , if he ends up far falco just starts spamming again

well then snake is screwed if falco CG's him into dair? he has to have SOME way of surviving, i don main snake i hae no idea

grenades suck in this matchup ok w/e

how would shield block mortar slide? shield grab? its pretty hard...

then when snake is crawling toward him, and falco isnt laser spamming anymore, then snake has alot moer options at his side. if falco decides to keep on laser spamming, then its his own fault.

with mortar slide...ANYBODY can shield, hate to break it to ya. and falco has to perfectly position himself for snake to be right in front of him or else he cant grab. and snake can CHOOSE when to mortar slide, so...yea...and im done posting for today

 

[ShadowLink84]

well then snake is screwed if falco CG's him into dair? he has to have SOME way of surviving, i don main snake i hae no idea

Actually he doesn't. The problem is that similar to Pit's wings of icarus, he is motiated by momentum.
So if you get spiked you won't survive.

grenades suck in this matchup ok w/e[/quote
not really. if you cook em they work out well.

how would shield block mortar slide? shield grab? its pretty hard...

then when snake is crawling toward him, and falco isnt laser spamming anymore, then snake has alot moer options at his side. if falco decides to keep on laser spamming, then its his own fault.

He doesn't. he takes a bit to get back up and at such a point, Falco is capable of countering well.
This isn't like Kirby who can slowly move forward while crouch walking.

with mortar slide...ANYBODY can shield, hate to break it to ya. and falco has to perfectly position himself for snake to be right in front of him or else he cant grab. and snake can CHOOSE when to mortar slide, so...yea...and im done posting for today

Agreed.

 

[Ryan-K]

um no dude you don't know what you're talking about

so what anyoen can shield, not everyone can kill snake from 0 at it.

if falco isn't spamming he can run away while snake is standing there like an idiot since he can't do anything during crawl.

you just said anyone can shield mortar, then said how can you, are you ******** or something

falco can dash out of shield to grab, plus it's easy to grab it on reaction , i've done it often enough and i don't even pay attention when im playing this game lol

snake can't really do anything to falco, if he crawls then he leaves himself open since all he can really do is dtilt

 

[ShadowLink84]

um no dude you don't know what you're talking about

so what anyoen can shield, not everyone can kill snake from 0 at it.

you are assuming that Falco can just shieldgrab Snake out of his DAC which is not going to happen.
he can kill off a grab but he won't land a grab on a snake that is DACing unless he has extremely good timing (whcih is hard btw)

you just said anyone can shield mortar, then said how can you, are you ******** or something

Ad hominem but i shall addressed what he said.
ANYONE can perform a shieldgrab off of Snake during his DAc. However, the timing is strict and is difficult making it unviable.

falco can dash out of shield to grab, plus it's easy to grab it on reaction , i've done it often enough and i don't even pay attention when im playing this game lol

Anecdotal evidence doesn't count nor do the scrubby Snake's you play.

 

[salaboB]

ANYONE can perform a shieldgrab off of Snake during his DAc. However, the timing is strict and is difficult making it unviable.

The difficulty of an action *rarely* is enough to make it unviable, if it's within the realm of possible. Wolf shining through everything? That's hard enough to make it unviable. But just timing a grab against one move that you can see coming, even if it's very precise? That's realistic to get good at.

If all Falco has to do is perform it once and Snake is dead, Snake really can't mortar slide very often -- enough chances and the Falco will nail the timing, and that'll be a stock off of Snake. So it becomes effectively useless to Snake as a general approach against Falco.

 

[Inui]

The biggest difference between you and me?

One of us won't fade into obscurity the moment Metaknight is banned.

You haven't done anything in forever, so as far as I can tell, you've already faded into obscurity.

I was placing high with Marth, Pit, Dedede, and Snake anyways. Without Meta Knight existing, Marth becomes much better overall, and I still play Marth a lot. Fade I shall not, good sir.

@inui
nobody good with MK was there...
if you have a 300 man tourney, but you dont let anyone who mains or seconds MK in the building, even if you dont ban him in the official rules, than that doesnt really serve to prove any points about MK not beign broken

Thanks for agreeing that you have to be good at the game to win even with MK.

 

[Mew2King]

I'm pretty sure Inui got 5th at Fast1 using mostly Snake (and some marth), and gets top 2 in NJ very very often. I also don't care if you've beaten DSF's snake with rob, (he lost to some random rob with snake then 3 stocked that rob with DDD later that same tourney in losers bracket in some tourney a few months ago; he told me about it when it happened, he sucks at snake vs rob matchup). He's also beaten DSF's snake in tourney with ddd and taken it to last stock the other two games with marth. How many notable tourneys have you done good in?

 

[popsofctown]

Who is inui? apparently he is famouser than overswarm. But i haven't heard of inui. Does he win tournaments?

 

[salaboB]

Thanks for agreeing that you have to be good at the game to win even with MK.

I don't believe anyone has said you don't. But until he has an actual bad matchup, he's giving equal skill players a significant advantage against someone not playing as him just by choosing MK -- because they can counterpick their opponent to shift the advantage to themselves, but their opponent can't CP them back to get anything better than even.

And that's the root of the problem, really. No other character can't be counterpicked for an advantage.

 

[Inui]

I'm pretty sure Inui got 5th at Fast1 using mostly Snake (and some marth), and gets top 2 in NJ very very often. I also don't care if you've beaten DSF's snake with rob, (he lost to some random rob with snake then 3 stocked that rob with DDD later that same tourney in losers bracket in some tourney a few months ago; he told me about it when it happened, he sucks at snake vs rob matchup). He's also beaten DSF's snake in tourney with ddd and taken it to last stock the other two games with marth. How many notable tourneys have you done good in?

I went 95% Marth in singles at FAST, Jason. I just used Snake in teams. I guess that's better, right? Marth ftw.

Thanks for the defence, Jason.

I don't believe anyone has said you don't. But until he has an actual bad matchup, he's giving equal skill players a significant advantage against someone not playing as him just by choosing MK -- because they can counterpick their opponent to shift the advantage to themselves, but their opponent can't CP them back to get anything better than even.

And that's the root of the problem, really. No other character can't be counterpicked for an advantage.

Imo:

MK ditto: 50/50
Snake: 60/40 Snake
Olimar: 55/45 Olimar
Falco: 50/50
Diddy: 50/50
Game and Watch: 50/50

So...I think MK is perfectly beatable.

 

[ProBrawler]

Imo:

MK ditto: 50/50
Snake: 60/40 Snake
Olimar: 55/45 Olimar
Falco: 50/50
Diddy: 50/50
Game and Watch: 50/50

So...I think MK is perfectly beatable.

MK dittos don't count. Basically, everyone would be playing MK in that case, and that's exactly what we don't want to happen. I second Olimar, imo MK has a distinct advantage. I'm not knowledgeable enough in the other match-ups to comment on those.

 

[St. Viers]

Who is inui? apparently he is famouser than overswarm. But i haven't heard of inui. Does he win tournaments?

he places high in them, against the best players in the US (North Atlantic region)

 

[salaboB]

Imo:

MK ditto: 50/50
Snake: 60/40 Snake
Olimar: 55/45 Olimar
Falco: 50/50
Diddy: 50/50
Game and Watch: 50/50

So...I think MK is perfectly beatable.

60:40 Snake is debatable, and likely only on a CP stage. But answer this: Can MK not stage-counterpick all those to shift overall odds to him? Oh, and G&W can't use his turtle against a good MK so I don't believe anyone really thinks that matchup is 50:50 anymore. Diddy and Falco certainly haven't been proven. Olimar has been said to go both ways. I'll give you Snake, though.

So here's what happens between an even skilled MK and any of these listed:
Round 1: 50:50 win chance. Flip the coin, for this example the MK loses. (Realistically, only a few characters go 50:50 with MK when they haven't gotten a stage they like)
Round 2: 60:40 or better win chance, because all those characters have stages that cause them problems. I've heard Snake has a truly bad CP level or two, so in reality his is likely better for MK than 60:40 (And all it takes is this advantage being higher than their best CP level).
Round 3: On his best CP level, Snake has 60:40. Everyone else CPs and only gets back to 50:50 (Or maybe 55:45 Olimar. The round 2 disadvantage is still greater than this).

So unless the MK can't counterpick Snake for worse than that matchup on his counterpick (Or heck, just switch to a hard counter to Snake because the Snake player has to select character first) just by playing MK one player has an advantage statistically that the other player can do nothing about, even if they know he *only* plays MK (Which gets rid of the hard counter for Snake but leaves the stage counter still successfully tipping the odds).

Nobody else in the game can do that -- go into a match with an increased chance of winning even though their opponent knows who they'll pick all three rounds, unless their opponent dittos them at some point. That's why MK is overcentralizing the metagame, and why he's a problem.

 

[CR4SH]

I went 95% Marth in singles at FAST, Jason. I just used Snake in teams. I guess that's better, right? Marth ftw.

Thanks for the defence, Jason.
.

Hi my name is inui, jason. I know m2k on a first name basis, jason. I think It makes me more credible if I call m2k jason, jason.

 

[Overswarm]

Hi my name is inui, jason. I know m2k on a first name basis, jason. I think It makes me more credible if I call m2k jason, jason.

When one doesn't have any real accomplishments of their own, they stand on top of greater things. Like Mew2king, or Metaknight.

 

[rehab]

I don't even know what a real accomplishment in this game is anymore.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't even know what a real accomplishment in this game is anymore.

Winning without Metaknight.

Banning him at your tournament.

Past that, not much. No one cares what place you get if you're MK anymore.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

how exactly does olimar have an advantage on someone who can gimp him like it's his job?

 

[St. Viers]

When one doesn't have any real accomplishments of their own, they stand on top of greater things. Like Mew2king, or Metaknight.

except that he proved he does around the same before and after. And maybe he just happens to know M2K. I call KDJ dan, and I don't even know him super well.

Seriously. I had mad respect for you, and as a player I still do, but this sniping is really just lowering my opinions of both you and Inui (for his responding in like).

I know you're thinking "Why the hell should I care, you're just some random scrub," but meh.

 

[Justblaze647]

When one doesn't have any real accomplishments of their own, they stand on top of greater things. Like Mew2king, or Metaknight.

QFT and Sigged...

 

[Inui]

When one doesn't have any real accomplishments of their own, they stand on top of greater things. Like Mew2king, or Metaknight.

You're acting stupid LMAO. Why do you keep saying such dumb things? I did a lot of things in tournaments WITHOUT Meta Knight for a long time before I started using Meta Knight.

And pardon me for addressing one of my best friends in the community by his first name LOL. I see him a lot and let him stay over and he's in my crew for Christ's sake.

Can MK not stage-counterpick all those to shift overall odds to him?

I beat Shadow's MK with Snake on RAINBOW CRUISE and BRINSTAR in tournament matches. DSF beat dmbrandon on RAINBOW CRUISE. Those stages are hugely in favour of MK.

Nobody else in the game can do that -- go into a match with an increased chance of winning even though their opponent knows who they'll pick all three rounds, unless their opponent dittos them at some point. That's why MK is overcentralizing the metagame, and why he's a problem.

Nope. Snake overall has the advantage and if Olimar bans Rainbow Cruise he can't be stage-gayed. Falco and Diddy can do the same thing. Game and Watch doesn't have bad stages, so good luck with that.

Winning without Metaknight.

Banning him at your tournament.

Past that, not much. No one cares what place you get if you're MK anymore.

That doesn't apply to my region, where MK doesn't win anything unless it's Mew2King or teh_spamerer, who are Godlike players anyways. Oh, and Forte finally won after a huuuuuuge dryspell, but he did lose in winners...to a SNAKE.

 

[Overswarm]

how exactly does olimar have an advantage on someone who can gimp him like it's his job?

He doesn't.


Timeline of Inui:

-lots of crap no one cares about from a mediocre player
-people learn to consider Inui an irritating poster due to his posting
-Inui's posting slightly improves; community acceptance begins
-Inui mains Metaknight after losing to a Sonic
-Inui beats several players much better than him
-Inui starts winning tournaments
-Inui suddenly becomes very, very involved in the "don't ban MK" campaign
-Everyone realizes Inui is nothing without MK
-Everyone lawls

 

[CR4SH]

Jason, jason, jason.

Lol, it just makes me giggle.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I thought Game and Watch had trouble with Lylat cruise... or at least a lot more than MK does.

 

[CR4SH]

I thought Game and Watch had trouble with Lylat cruise... or at least a lot more than MK does.

Not so hot on brinstar either.

 

[brinboy789]

He doesn't.


Timeline of Inui:

-lots of crap no one cares about from a mediocre player
-people learn to consider Inui an irritating poster due to his posting
-Inui's posting slightly improves; community acceptance begins
-Inui mains Metaknight after losing to a Sonic
-Inui beats several players much better than him
-Inui starts winning tournaments
-Inui suddenly becomes very, very involved in the "don't ban MK" campaign
-Everyone realizes Inui is nothing without MK
-Everyone lawls

you know, its GREAT that this is his timeline, or isnt and your just making this up, but i have to tell you, this is VERY relevant to the topic...