Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[brinboy789]

And if someone doesn't know how to shield, Ike's f-smash is broken.

run away

 

[CR4SH]

Thread synopsis:

Overswarm counts the votes.

Sliq says something loleriffic.

Mmac is offended and defensive of yoshi.

Brinboy says something dumb.

Ulevo Vs. ShadowLink 2 : The reckoning.

Spoiler

Crash is off topic.

 

[brinboy789]

wow, im cool

wow...screw off. seriously.

 

[Inui]

I suspect you guys have him effectively soft banned, which would mean two things: A ban in the other areas wouldn't need to be applied in yours, and you're not seeing most of the MK potential that the other places are having crush their best efforts -- because the best players in your region aren't using him. So you don't see the need to ban him as strongly because he's already partially banned (Even if unofficially) for you.

No, we have a large amount of MK mains and the best ones live here. We know how to fight him because of this.

I beat the best MK in NY, Shadow, 2-0 in tourny today...with Snake. Yes!, an NJ Snake player, did the same thing. I lost to Yes!'s Snake in winners with my MK and barely won losers finals against him.

Snake destroys MK.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Snake destroys MK.

<.<

I'm not sure I can agree with this. A tough matchup for MK maybe... but utter destruction? If that were true, everyone would know it.

 

[aeghrur]

No, we have a large amount of MK mains and the best ones live here. We know how to fight him because of this.

I beat the best MK in NY, Shadow, 2-0 in tourny today...with Snake. Yes!, an NJ Snake player, did the same thing. I lost to Yes!'s Snake in winners with my MK and barely won losers finals against him.

Snake destroys MK.

Hey, guess what? I beat my friend's MK with Captain falcon. And then I switched to MK but he 3 stocked me with Captain Falcon. CFALCON DESTROYS MK GUYS, CFALCON DESTROYS MK.

 

[Inui]

I'm exagerrating. Snake wins, though.

Hey, guess what? I beat my friend's MK with Captain falcon. And then I switched to MK but he 3 stocked me with Captain Falcon. CFALCON DESTROYS MK GUYS, CFALCON DESTROYS MK.

What I said = matches between top players.

Nobodies don't count.

 

[aeghrur]

I'm exagerrating. Snake wins, though.



What I said = matches between top players.

Nobodies don't count.

2 sets shouldn't be used as definite proof. I was exaggerating my point. =/

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Isn't Snake vs Meta Knight neutral at best for Snake? Most would give the advantage (however slight) to Meta Knight.

 

[Inui]

2 sets shouldn't be used as definite proof. I was exaggerating my point. =/

I beat Shadow with Snake before that.

Yes! beat dmbrandon's Meta Knight multiple times back when dmbrandon was active.

Mew2King used Snake against Chillin's Meta Knight and twostocked him twice in a row.

There's sooooo much evidence to say that Snake wins.

 

[kr3wman]

Wouldn't it be because M2K > Chillin, not Snake > MK?

 

[Yuna]

Wouldn't it be because M2K > Chillin, not Snake > MK?

But then why would M2K Snake Chillin instead of Meta dittoing him?

(I'm not arguing that Snake destroys MK)

 

[kr3wman]

I'm not M2K, I don't know what was going on in his head that particular moment.

 

[BentoBox]

Speculation of this nature leads nowhere. M2K did say that Snake had the advantage, iirc.

 

[frdagaa]

I beat Shadow with Snake before that.

Yes! beat dmbrandon's Meta Knight multiple times back when dmbrandon was active.

Mew2King used Snake against Chillin's Meta Knight and twostocked him twice in a row.

There's sooooo much evidence to say that Snake wins.

Half of your evidence is anecdotal, and as a result has serious flaws. Skill level can explain any of that; just because these are top players doesn't mean there isn't a differential in skill level.

I mean hell, M2K winning a match doesn't mean anything, stat wise. He could probably beat some top MK's with Yoshi, if he wanted to, but nobody would ever say that Yoshi destroys MK. Yoshi just happens to also have a decent matchup.

When you say "destroy," or that Snake beats MK, or whatever, you have to take into account more factors than individual anecdotal accounts. The problem with this, of course, is that most of the best players play MK, so finding matches between top players of relatively equal skill is tough.

But then why would M2K Snake Chillin instead of Meta dittoing him?

(I'm not arguing that Snake destroys MK)

Because M2K thinks Snake beats MK. His preconceptions define his actions; that doesn't mean that those preconceptions reflect reality.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Um... What? First off, Meta Knight can't DTilt dropped Grenades. They blow up. In order to get past dropped grenades, Meta Knight has two options. Run past them and get ***** by FTilt/UTilt, or jump over them and get ***** by UTilt. DTilt and FTilt are the only methods Meta Knight has to properly out space Snake on the ground, and Grenades nullify that advantage by a great margin. Laying mines only aids this, and it will cost Meta Knight much more if he is struck by one than if Snake does. It is all part of proper stage control, which any good Snake should have.

Of course they blow up... and if it's dropped and MK is properly spaced, the resulting explosion WILL NOT HIT MK.

I'm tired of hearing this gimping strategy. Snake will not, I repeat, will not use his Cypher low under and circumstances, whatsoever, any day of the week, vs any character at all, unless he messes up his DI. With that in mind, Meta Knight will almost never reach him, and at best, could maybe under rare circumstances hit him while in his cypher with a soft Shuttle Loop, which does nothing.

Please don't make that argument again.

Ok, assuming you're correct... being below MK is NOT a good position.

I already refuted this. DTilt only becomes an option if Meta Knight gets past the Grenades. If Meta Knight gets that close, he'll get Shield Grabbed, due to the low Shield Stun of his moves.

Nade spamming is slow enough that getting past it is not a major issue, it's primarily a detterant against b moves against MK.

As for grabbing...

MK's range period >>>>>>>>>>> Snake's grab range.

You're right, Meta Knight is going to sit back and outspace those lasers right? Meta Knight has to follow in close because of the spam. If he does, he risks getting grabbed. And don't say he can get around the lasers easily, he's not Marth. His aerial speed is terrible unless he's gliding, and if he approaches up high, Falco has more than enough vertical jumping ability to follow him with his gun.

...

No, he's gonna get into the range where lasers are punishable and poke from there.

Sure, he'll probably eat some lasers on the way, but they're not enough to stop MK permanently even if he's half-way competent.

As for grab range, there's plenty of space between Mk's max safe range and falco's grab range.

No. It's not. IT'S NOT. Marth cannot be Chain Grabbed. Marth has a significantly better Fair and Bair. Marth has a 0 - Death combo on Falco. Marths aerial maneuverability is significantly better. Marth has Dancing Blade to punish and win every spot dodge war, something Meta Knight cannot do, even with DSmash. Marth hits a hell of a lot harder with tips, and dies later than Meta Knight too.It isn't the same **** match up.

It's not the same, but it's the same principal.

That isn't what makes Marth win the match-up, Marth wins because once he gets into a range where lasers are punishable, he's got a nice area where he can freely poke and Falco can't do anything that isn't punishable.

Even if Meta Knight is safe from a specific range, Falco can reset the spacing between them. DTilt isn't as effective in this match up due to how much Falco is short hopping around. Fair will get him punished, most likely through a grab. FTilt is a problem however. Between lasers and Phantasm, Meta Knight has a hard time coping with the spam unless he predicts accordingly. Even at close quarters, Meta Knight has to properly pick and choose his attacks to avoid either getting grabbed, or at higher percents, Smashed.

With what praytell? Sure, Falco can move back, but he doesn't have anything to stop MK from just advancing and all that does is limit his options. He can't move forward because he has signifigant area to cover before he can actually attack so if goes forward MK can ftilt or dtilt on reaction. Phantasm is too slow to be used directly against MK in this position (it's slow enough to react to, which is the crucial factor), reflector is too punishable.

Laser spam? From MK's safe range, nothing.

Reallistically speaking, all you need is one safe poke move. Regardless, lagless is one frame to land, 6 frames to get in the air, time it with falco hitting the ground and you've got all the time you need to dtilt with MK's 3 frames of start-up (IASA frames start on 15 if you screw up).

Dair Camping, Tornado, DThrow, BThrow/FThrow at ledges, spaced/paused FTilts, and DTilt totally distort the bond of Nana and Popo, and seperate them very effectively. From there, it's a simple Shuttle Loop or DSmash. And unfortunately for the IC, the CPU can't effectively DI all the time. This match up is very easy if you stick to a strick regime of Dairs, Tornado and Throws to seperate with the occasional Tilt until they split. Then the match is yours.

All of which wouldn't matter if he didn't have the ability to outspace the grab.

Let's give an easier example, Ganondorf vs. Wario. Ganondorf has a deathgrab on Wario, why doesn't he have the advantage? (So do a ton of other characters btw)

Simple, because he should never be grabbing wario. If wario spaces well, there's no way Ganondorf should ever grab Wario. He just doesn't have any safe ways to force the spacing where he can actually get it.

Same deal with MK vs. Falco.

If you mean people playing to win, then no. The spirit of "fun" is ruined by these people... just only when there's someone like MK around.



Also also also:


Quick question for everyone:

Do you REALLY think the tier list could be accurately updated in any significant manner other than "here is the list of people after Metaknight based on how they do vs. MK"?

Nah, still needs to account for which characters do well against scrub MKs, cause they still win more tournaments (I'm looking at you Snake), but that's basically what the tier list is... besides Yoshi that is.

Marth has at least 3 match-ups that are considered a disadvantage for him. Meta Knight is considered to be 35-65, and Snake and Dedede are 45:55.

Generally 45-55s are considered neutrals. Marth boards are a little odd in that regard.

"He lacks any counters, hard or soft" is a better way of putting forth this concept.

Besides MK obviously.

I beat Shadow with Snake before that.

Yes! beat dmbrandon's Meta Knight multiple times back when dmbrandon was active.

Mew2King used Snake against Chillin's Meta Knight and twostocked him twice in a row.

There's sooooo much evidence to say that Snake wins.

He beats MKs who can't space. If he really won, he'd have the most wins.

Back when he did win the match-up (because the metagame hadn't developed to the point where MKs figured out they could outspace Snake), he was the best character in tournament results BY FAR.

M2K is just the best.

 

[Inui]

Snakes usually beat Meta Knights over here. G-reg beats Forte, for instance.

What actually happens in the tournament scene is what matters most to me, and MKs consistently lose to Snakes.

 

[Yuna]

I'm not M2K, I don't know what was going on in his head that particular moment.

My point is that it's all speculation.

 

[kr3wman]

My point is that it's all speculation.

Of course. To say that Snake destroys MK and yet agree that MK place better in tournament is just completely contradictory to me.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

It's hard to take into consideration all of the factors as to whether he should or should not be banned. Leaving it to just a yes or no is too broad, I agree, but there is really nothing else to do. Maybe doesn't cut it.

 

[WakerofWinds]

My point is that it's all speculation.

Yuna just destroyed this topic.

 

[kr3wman]

Yuna just destroyed this topic.

It was already speculation, everybody knows that.

...wait.

So everybody was destroyed?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Snakes usually beat Meta Knights over here. G-reg beats Forte, for instance.

What actually happens in the tournament scene is what matters most to me, and MKs consistently lose to Snakes.

If a character is effectively losing to somebody that they should win against, it means one of two things, either you are missing certain facts of the match-up OR players simply aren't high enough in skill to bear out the reality of the match-up if it's a high-leveled match-up, and MK's advantage is a high-leveled play only advantage. This is the reason why Snake has the second-most tournament wins, because low-leveled MKs can still eliminate a large number of other characters, but Snakes can make it past them with relative ease if the can't space well.


But it's more likely that it's just a confirmation bias on your part, otherwise Snake would still have the best tournament results period (unless the advantage was VERY slight). This is especially shown by the fact that MK is particularly dominant in Atlantic North in spite of your insistence to the contrary.



Ok, I need salaboB to say something about immiediate ban. It's getting a little tiresome being grouped with the "ban-now" people when my position is so much more nuanced.

 

[Inui]

If a character is effectively losing to somebody that they should win against, it means one of two things, either you are missing certain facts of the match-up OR players simply aren't high enough in skill to bear out the reality of the match-up if it's a high-leveled match-up, and MK's advantage is a high-leveled play only advantage. This is the reason why Snake has the second-most tournament wins, because low-leveled MKs can still eliminate a large number of other characters, but Snakes can make it past them with relative ease if the can't space well.


But it's more likely that it's just a confirmation bias on your part, otherwise Snake would still have the best tournament results period (unless the advantage was VERY slight). This is especially shown by the fact that MK is particularly dominant in Atlantic North in spite of your insistence to the contrary.

Our players = the BEST in the nation. Everything that happens here between our top players is evidence of high level stuff.

Snake doesn't have the best results because he loses to other characters. Meta Knight loses to Snake, but beats everyone else or goes even with them. Snake loses to several characters and doesn't crush the lower tiers as badly.

Here's some data on when Luigi kills Meta and when Meta kills Luigi. The tests were performed against a level 3 CPU in training mode set to Stop(they still DI, though I doubt it's perfect DI)

Luigi
up B- 43%
fsmash angled up - 72%
aeriel up B - 74%
fsmash - 86%
upsmash - 94%
nair - 105%
reverse dsmash - 109%
uptilt - 115%
dsmash - 118%
bthrow - 135%
bair - 136%
dair - 140%
upthrow - 167%
ftilt - 173%
fair - 186%

Meta Knight
tipper uptilt(only possible if Luigi is in the air) - 115%
fsmash - 117%
reverse dsmash - 118%
glide attack - 128%
nair - 133%
dsmash - 135%
grounded shuttle loop - 135%
dimensional cape attack - 162%
tipper dair - 168%
aeriel shuttle loop - 170%
upthrow - 171%
bair last hit only - 172%

META KNIGHT IS SO BROKEN OH NOOOOOOO!

Luigi is awesome.

 

[PhantomX]

Wtf is the point of posting that? MK will rack up that damage in 1/8 the time Luigi has to rack it up... not to mention MK outprioritizes and has faster/less punishable attacks than Luigi in general...

 

[Inui]

Wtf is the point of posting that? MK will rack up that damage in 1/8 the time Luigi has to rack it up... not to mention MK outprioritizes and has faster/less punishable attacks than Luigi in general...

Luigi is really underrated. He actually has real combos at low percent to rack up damage quickly. He also has deceptively high priority. I hear Wario players cry about Luigi beating Wario's priority all the time, and Wario's priority is pretty good. Luigi's aerials have way less commitment involved than MK's and can be thrown out more liberally.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wtf is the point of posting that? MK will rack up that damage in 1/8 the time Luigi has to rack it up... not to mention MK outprioritizes and has faster/less punishable attacks than Luigi in general...

couldn't we please make a similar list for Ganondorf V. MK? that would be fun to see actually.

And luigi IS very good. But I was under the impression all luigis hated metaknight

 

[salaboB]

Ok, I need salaboB to say something about immiediate ban. It's getting a little tiresome being grouped with the "ban-now" people when my position is so much more nuanced.

I've said soft bans are acceptable, so I'm not exactly a hardcore "ban-now".

I just don't see the damage caused by banning now then unbanning later if it becomes justified as greater than the damage from just leaving him alone and waiting. I also (Unlike many) recognize the reality of a ban being declared on him not resulting in every tournament banning him -- even some of the big ones won't. So even if the SBR announced their strongest possible support for a ban now, only an idiot would think that would instantly make every tournament ban MK.

The problem is that those who are severely anti-ban won't change their minds if things continue as they have been, because nothing will have changed to make MK more ban worthy even if he takes more and more tournament spots -- he'll still be "beatable" and he'll still be "not too good", and that's just subjective and can't be argued with. That's why I don't bother specifying now or later, because timeframe for the requirements doesn't matter to the ones who are most against it anyway.

That's also why I stopped responding to you -- you don't actually disagree with me on the main points I've tried to make (About whether he qualifies to be banned or not, obviously you disagree on the timing being okay whenever), but you were causing a lot of confusion by insisting on picking at the way I was phrasing things.

 

[dainbramage]

Wtf is the point of posting that? MK will rack up that damage in 1/8 the time Luigi has to rack it up... not to mention MK outprioritizes and has faster/less punishable attacks than Luigi in general...

And that luigi is heavier than metaknight (though falls slower), if we're comparing attack power, both should be against the same character...

If that's trying to say that luigi > metaknight... ??

 

[aeghrur]

Luigi is really underrated. He actually has real combos at low percent to rack up damage quickly. He also has deceptively high priority. I hear Wario players cry about Luigi beating Wario's priority all the time, and Wario's priority is pretty good. Luigi's aerials have way less commitment involved than MK's and can be thrown out more liberally.

That doesn't make the match up any better than 80-20 though. =/ Just sayin.

 

[PhantomX]

Luigi is really underrated. He actually has real combos at low percent to rack up damage quickly. He also has deceptively high priority. I hear Wario players cry about Luigi beating Wario's priority all the time, and Wario's priority is pretty good. Luigi's aerials have way less commitment involved than MK's and can be thrown out more liberally.

1) Wario doesn't have disjointed hitboxes
2) Wario's moves have after lag

3) Disjointed hitboxes absolutely violate Luigi
4) His real combos do about 40% at best (to a Wario), you can interrupt half of them w/ DI and a nair.
5) Only bad Warios cry about Luigi, he's quite manageable if you know what you're doing.

 

[BentoBox]

I heard Bowser could kill MK with a Fsmash at 80%. =D

@Inui: Luigi depends heavily on his aerial game. MK ***** him in the air. The percentages at which he can kill MK is irrelevant if he has no safe approaches.

 

[Skyflyer]

WHHHHHHY


why must you all be so cruel to MK?

 

[aeghrur]

WHHHHHHY


why must you all be so cruel to MK?

Cuz blue puffballs hurt my stomach. I'm only mean to him cuz he's mean to me. O=<

 

[da K.I.D.]

I've said soft bans are acceptable, so I'm not exactly a hardcore "ban-now".

I just don't see the damage caused by banning now then unbanning later if it becomes justified as greater than the damage from just leaving him alone and waiting. I also (Unlike many) recognize the reality of a ban being declared on him not resulting in every tournament banning him -- even some of the big ones won't. So even if the SBR announced their strongest possible support for a ban now, only an idiot would think that would instantly make every tournament ban MK.

The problem is that those who are severely anti-ban won't change their minds if things continue as they have been, because nothing will have changed to make MK more ban worthy even if he takes more and more tournament spots -- he'll still be "beatable" and he'll still be "not too good", and that's just subjective and can't be argued with. That's why I don't bother specifying now or later, because timeframe for the requirements doesn't matter to the ones who are most against it anyway.

That's also why I stopped responding to you -- you don't actually disagree with me on the main points I've tried to make (About whether he qualifies to be banned or not, obviously you disagree on the timing being okay whenever), but you were causing a lot of confusion by insisting on picking at the way I was phrasing things.

im happy with a soft ban as well, and i agree with the subjectiveness of the no-ban arguments

also. this post exemplifies the last line in my sig

 

[Metro Knight]

I heard Bowser could kill MK with a Fsmash at 80%. =D

@Inui: Luigi depends heavily on his aerial game. MK ***** him in the air. The percentages at which he can kill MK is irrelevant if he has no safe approaches.

Link can kill MK at 50% in Norfair with a well placed/used DAIR.

D3 can kill anyone with a 17% fsmash if he spaces it well... Doesn't mean Bowser's fsmash = win versus MK....

 

[salaboB]

D3 can kill anyone with a 17% fsmash if he spaces it well... Doesn't mean Bowser's fsmash = win versus MK....

C'mon, it's Bowser's fsmash. That's win against everyone.

 

[BentoBox]

Link can kill MK at 50% in Norfair with a well placed/used DAIR.

D3 can kill anyone with a 17% fsmash if he spaces it well... Doesn't mean Bowser's fsmash = win versus MK....

Lol, you're dense.

 

[Deoxys]

Lol, you're dense.

Can D^3 really do that?

 

[Ryusuta]

Conceivably, yes. Of course, a well-played Meta Knight (or... you know... ANYONE) isn't actually going to fall for that.