Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Overswarm]

Hey everyone! Let's listen to the canadian Yoshi player that plays primarily online!



Yeah, I didn't think it was a good campaign slogan either.

 

[Mmac]

Hey everyone! Let's listen to the canadian Yoshi player that plays primarily online!

How Insulting!

 

[Ulevo]

It seems to be simple fact. How exactly are they Prominent? He has 5 best of the Major characteristics in the game, with the rest of the Major Characteristics Well Above Average. Everyone else has Scattered Redeeming Qualities at best. Sure they might have some tools to deal with him decently, but MetaKnight has tools on everyone to deal with them with ease!

Aside from the speed of his attacks, and his recovery, none of his attributes totally shatter that of second best contender for those said attributes. And in fact, there are characters who beat him outright in some of his good qualities.

Significantly Longer Reach? From what I heard, he even outranges Marth! Snake and DK might, but once he gets in and knocks them into the air, they're in major trouble. Dedede is just plain too stiff to counter MetaKnight effectively, And everyone else in the top/high tiers just get plain outranged. Another thing is that More Powerful = Bull****! MetaKnight can just Chip Damage the entire time and collect damage just as fast. More KO'ing options isn't necessary better. MetaKnight has 4, which 3 are Lagless. Besides he can just gimp most characters at low percents easily.

Marth no longer has the amazing reach he has, so do not use Marth as an example. He has a good speed to range ratio, but his attacks wouldn't be considering long reach anymore. But even Marth in many areas, along with R.O.B., Donkey Kong, King Dedede, Snake, G&W in some areas... all out reach him. Lets not forget he doesn't have a projectile. Aside from DTilt, Glide Attack, and FTilt Meta Knights range really isn't that impressive. It is just good when you consider the speed those moves contain.

Also, the damage accumulation isn't more or less than any other character for the most part. Meta Knight just has good options for getting in to deal damage. If methods are used to prevent that, Meta Knights weak single hit strikes only do so much.

Please do not make the gimping argument. DIing is ridiculously easy in Brawl, and aside from a select group of characters, you shouldn't be getting gimped by Meta Knight often if you know what you're doing.

One of the best Defencive, Edgeguarding, and Comboing Games are not "Overwhelming" Characteristics? Because I think they are. He's just plain too powerful, he's got too many redeeming qualities that set him apart, and you can't deny it. You can't probably even find flaws in my thesis because they're probably all right

Please don't bring up combos. His defenses are very good, but he is out classed by certain characters in that department, and that is how he loses. Edge guarding? He's **** good at that. I don't see how it sets him apart from the rest of the cast other than being the best character. [/quote]

Judging from AlphaZealot's Thread I assume. His example wasn't all that convincing... 2 Marths in the Top 8 Compared to 5 MetaKnights? Yes Marth is soooooooo dominating more than MetaKnight! If it is, it's probably because of Ken, Which I believe that M2K will pass him in a very short time...

You just basically proved me right. A large portion of the reason Meta Knights dominance is so high is likely due to M2Ks influence and tournament winnings. Even if Ken was largely responsible for the dominance Marth had, it still does not exclude the fact that Meta Knights dominance level is at about 33% right now if I recall correctly, while Marth had around a 44% dominance rating according to AZ. Correct me if my numbers are off, but the point is that Marth out classes Meta Knight currently as of now in results. What you think is going to happen is irrelevant as of right now for the sake of the argument you are making, because the fact of the matter is we haven't surpassed that point. When Meta Knight starts going past the 45 - 50% mark down the road, then you can throw tournament results in my face and I might take you seriously. [/quote]

Plus if he WAS that dominating, then it just shows you how more balanced the higher Tiers from Melee were balanced considerably more than Brawl.

Irrelevant. We're not arguing the balance of Tiers, we're arguing the effects of Meta Knight on the tournament scene, with and without a ban. Marth could be completely even with the other High and Top characters for all I care, it still doesn't disprove the fact I gave to you, and that no other character in Melee was as dominant as Marth. If you're going to rely on Meta Knights tournament winnings and use them as a crutch for your claims, you can't ignore this.

Why should MetaKnight stay? He does nothing good for the completive scene! He's just too overbalanced, and just turns the entire game one dimensional. The game would be so much better without him, even if he isn't that broken. I doubt if we give it a Year that it would be any different.... that is, if the game actually last that long

It is irrelevant if he does nothing for the community. I can sit here all day and write an essay about how Captain Falcon does nothing good for the tournament scene because of how useless he is. We're not arguing that. Whether or not the game would be better with or without him is your personal opinion, and I nor anyone else here really cares about it unless it actually holds meaning to supporting the competitive grounds. Just because you like or dislike something does not mean we will make decisions based on that for you, so please next time give me something less to quote.

We're deciding if he is broken, and worthy of a ban. Not if you like him.

 

[salaboB]

We're deciding if he is broken, and worthy of a ban. Not if you like him.

How about him breaking the counterpick model and rewarding anyone who picks him up by not needing a second to still have nothing but even matchups at worse?

Or why we can't put theory to the test and ban him for a bit, to see if the doom and gloom shows up, if the tournament scene finds new life and interest, or if things stay relatively unchanged?

 

[Ulevo]

How about him breaking the counterpick model and rewarding anyone who picks him up by not needing a second to still have nothing but even matchups at worse?

Or why we can't put theory to the test and ban him for a bit, to see if the doom and gloom shows up, if the tournament scene finds new life and interest, or if things stay relatively unchanged?

He only breaks the counter pick system if he in fact has no bad match ups. People are only running around and assuming that he doesn't. They don't considering the viable options for counter picks in front of them (Snake, Donkey Kong, Falco, Diddy Kong are all possibilities), or the odd person will argue ridiculous claims like Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Yoshi (yes Mmac, I know you claim he is even at best, but you're not the only one making claims here), having the edge. There isn't a single up to date, reliable thread for Meta Knight anyone can refer to. People just come to the conclusion that he is perfect.

Also, there is no reason why a pro player should use only Meta Knight 100%. You would be stupid to use Meta Knight vs a Fox instead of Pikachu, or a Meta Knight vs a Donkey Kong or Snake instead of King Dedede. Just because he is an overall safe option does not mean he is the most secure in every circumstance.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Even using Zelda/Sheik in tandem yeilds at least a small advatage for MK

 

[Mortimer]

Also, there is no reason why a pro player should use only Meta Knight 100%. You would be stupid to use Meta Knight vs a Fox instead of Pikachu, or a Meta Knight vs a Donkey Kong or Snake instead of King Dedede. Just because he is an overall safe option does not mean he is the most secure in every circumstance.

Assume for the sake of this argument that MK is at worst even with every other character.

If a player can choose to get awesome at MK or to get good at MK and a secondary, which is the safer option? By focusing on MK exclusively, they lose a potential counterpick advantage over some characters, but the edge they get by being more familiar with MK can offset that loss.

On the other hand, if you don't main MK, there are true counters against your character which forces you to pick up a secondary and divide your attention between your main and secondary pick. Your skills will never reach as high a peak as the player who exclusively focuses on MK, and thus you'll always be worse at the game.

So MK provides an inherent advantage simply because he has enough of an edge which allows players to throw the entire system out of balance.

 

[salaboB]

He only breaks the counter pick system if he in fact has no bad match ups. People are only running around and assuming that he doesn't. They don't considering the viable options for counter picks in front of them (Snake, Donkey Kong, Falco, Diddy Kong are all possibilities), or the odd person will argue ridiculous claims like Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Yoshi (yes Mmac, I know you claim he is even at best, but you're not the only one making claims here), having the edge. There isn't a single up to date, reliable thread for Meta Knight anyone can refer to. People just come to the conclusion that he is perfect.

You're belittling everyone who's spent months trying to find ways to deal with him. It's not just an assumption at this point, the part that's undemonstrated theorycrafting is the idea that any character is better than even with him.

Also, there is no reason why a pro player should use only Meta Knight 100%. You would be stupid to use Meta Knight vs a Fox instead of Pikachu, or a Meta Knight vs a Donkey Kong or Snake instead of King Dedede. Just because he is an overall safe option does not mean he is the most secure in every circumstance.

But you no longer need to have those characters mastered if you're at least equally skilled with your opponent, because you can just beat them with your main instead -- and spend the time on that one character instead of having to hold two characters' playstyles in your head the way everyone else has to. Compounding the problem is you don't have to learn specific tricks of your second on each stage -- MK works fine on all of them still. So while there is no reason a pro has to only use MK, they can certainly get away with it and it will save them effort that everyone else must spend if they choose to, for little impact on their overall performance.

 

[Sliq]

If you mean people playing to win, then no. The spirit of "fun" is ruined by these people... just only when there's someone like MK around.

No.

(10 no's)

Me? you should learn to construct a sentence properly. The wording was just attrocious. Besides that, "doing" had no antecedent. Doing WHAT exactly?

I worded that way for humor. Enjoy watching your Friends DVD's.

Also, I implied doing "anything." As in any action is john worthy in the eyes or idiots.

 

[Steel]

How Insulting!

i seriously cannot get enough of these yoshi emotes...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Aside from the speed of his attacks, and his recovery, none of his attributes totally shatter that of second best contender for those said attributes. And in fact, there are characters who beat him outright in some of his good qualities

yet despite beating him outright int hose aspects the also typically do not have the other aspects to the extent that MK has.
He lacks power of Ike and DK but has much greater speed.

Marth no longer has the amazing reach he has, so do not use Marth as an example. He has a good speed to range ratio, but his attacks wouldn't be considering long reach anymore. But even Marth in many areas, along with R.O.B., Donkey Kong, King Dedede, Snake, G&W in some areas... all out reach him. Lets not forget he doesn't have a projectile. Aside from DTilt, Glide Attack, and FTilt Meta Knights range really isn't that impressive. It is just good when you consider the speed those moves contain.

Get your facts straight.
Marth doesn't outrange him in many areas.
The only time that Marth outranges MK is when it comes to unsafe moves.
Fsmash, Dsmash, Dairs,Uair, Usmash. Many instances? Hardly.
In every other circumstance Mk outranges Marth.

Thats bad.

Rob outranges him with Bair,Dair, Usmash,Uair.
All of which stay out for along time or are slow to come out.
DDD doesn't outrange Mk except on Uair, Dair, Fsmash, Ftilt.

Again Mk beats him out safe move wise.
Snake doesn't outrange MK except with his aerials which surprise surprise, suck.
Ground wise Snake is outranged and outspeeded.

Don't believe me?
Dtilt vs. Utilt=MK not getting hit and Snake being struck.

G&w outranges with his bair, Fair and I can't think of much else.

All of KM's safe moves outrange those of marth's safe moves so his range is very impressive. Why? His hitbox extend further than the graphics show by a bit.

Also, the damage accumulation isn't more or less than any other character for the most part. Meta Knight just has good options for getting in to deal damage. If methods are used to prevent that, Meta Knights weak single hit strikes only do so much.

yeah and once he is in, the knockback and trajectory of his mvoes set up for MK to continue his attacks. Once MK gets in it is hard to get him off considering his ability to pressure, his range and his speed and priority.

Single strikes may be weak but it means alot when your opponent cannot retaliate or place themselves in a position to defend.

Please do not make the gimping argument. DIing is ridiculously easy in Brawl, and aside from a select group of characters, you shouldn't be getting gimped by Meta Knight often if you know what you're doing.

multijumps+shuttleloop+every aerial.

Sorry you're not convincing. bring up characters he cannot gimp, bring up his inability to keep after the opponent once they are struck.

Please don't bring up combos. His defenses are very good, but he is out classed by certain characters in that department, and that is how he loses. Edge guarding? He's **** good at that. I don't see how it sets him apart from the rest of the cast other than being the best character.

Evidently we are not playing the same game.
MK=best edgeguarder.
Again same reason cmobined with his range, speed, priority.
There aren't many characters that can combo either and the majority of the time they cannot combo because the requirements are strict.

Mk may not be capable of comboing on the same degree but he has strings and like marth in melee, places the opponent in a situation where he can continue his attacks.

You just basically proved me right. A large portion of the reason Meta Knights dominance is so high is likely due to M2Ks influence and tournament winnings.

Woah what?

Are you friggin kidding me?
Statistics say otherwise.
if you remove M2K's, DSF's and Azen's results and give them to another character, MK STILL remains dominant by a significant margin.

Look at the statistics some time.

MK is responsible for over 50% of the AN tournament wins.
Yeah, M2K is surely winning at all those tournaments.

Even if Ken was largely responsible for the dominance Marth had, it still does not exclude the fact that Meta Knights dominance level is at about 33% right now if I recall correctly, while Marth had around a 44% dominance rating according to AZ. Correct me if my numbers are off, but the point is that Marth out classes Meta Knight currently as of now in results. What you think is going to happen is irrelevant as of right now for the sake of the argument you are making, because the fact of the matter is we haven't surpassed that point. When Meta Knight starts going past the 45 - 50% mark down the road, then you can throw tournament results in my face and I might take you seriously.

um actually he doesn't.
AZ's numbers take into account ONLY national tournaments.
Which are small in number. There have hardly been any national tournaments fr brawl and your numbers are wrong.
MK has taken up more spots n a national tournament than Marth has. Marth takes up 2 spots, MK takes up 5.

If you look at the smaller tournaments which are greater in number, MK outclasses Marth by a significant margin.

Marth dominated but he did NOT dominate to the same DEGREE as MK does currently.

Irrelevant. We're not arguing the balance of Tiers, we're arguing the effects of Meta Knight on the tournament scene, with and without a ban. Marth could be completely even with the other High and Top characters for all I care, it still doesn't disprove the fact I gave to you, and that no other character in Melee was as dominant as Marth. If you're going to rely on Meta Knights tournament winnings and use them as a crutch for your claims, you can't ignore this.

Sheik w s even more dominant in the beginning of melee.
Let alone that again, MK's dominance is greater than those of Marth.

if you look at only the 5 or 6 national tournaments, yeah it can be said Marth dominated as much. However the sample size is too small and we already have seen that in those national tournaments (which are fewer) MK takes up more spots and he wins.

He only breaks the counter pick system if he in fact has no bad match ups. People are only running around and assuming that he doesn't. They don't considering the viable options for counter picks in front of them (Snake, Donkey Kong, Falco, Diddy Kong are all possibilities), or the odd person will argue ridiculous claims like Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Yoshi (yes Mmac, I know you claim he is even at best, but you're not the only one making claims here), having the edge. There isn't a single up to date, reliable thread for Meta Knight anyone can refer to. People just come to the conclusion that he is perfect.

I dislike that ohwell thing.


Anyways.
Snake and Donkey Kong are at best, neutral with MK. He zones snake and he outspeeds DK who does not outrange him significantly, let alone that Mk has disjointed hitboxes so he does not extend his hurtbox like Dk does when he attacks.

Falco gets zoned just as he does against Marth but to a greater degree. Falco is only safe at long range but once Mk has gotten close 9which he will) Falco has a hard time fighting up close. Range and speed again.
Diddy Kong is only considered neutral and thats on FD and that in itself is also shaky.

There is not a single reliable counter to MK let alone that the neutrals proposed are shaky.
not one stage does MK do poorly on. he may be hindered slightly by green greens and Corneria but they hardly affect him. Even if they did affect him the MK user can simply ban those stages.
there goes the idea of CP.

Also, there is no reason why a pro player should use only Meta Knight 100%. You would be stupid to use Meta Knight vs a Fox instead of Pikachu, or a Meta Knight vs a Donkey Kong or Snake instead of King Dedede. Just because he is an overall safe option does not mean he is the most secure in every circumstance.

Fox is at a solid disadvantage against MK. Fox gets wrecked so why in the hell did you bring this up?
M vs DK is neutral at best so why switch? Oh wait but MK breaks the system so that even if your opponent chooses DK, you can go DDD. Yay!

MK vs DDD is MK's advantage (soft)


Mind you I am not for a ban.
I am against it for several reasons.

 

[Ulevo]

Assume for the sake of this argument that MK is at worst even with every other character.

If a player can choose to get awesome at MK or to get good at MK and a secondary, which is the safer option? + Stuff/QUOTE]

Getting better with a secondary and Meta Knight is a much safer option. This is Brawl, a game that requires very little dedication and an understanding of simple concepts in order to be reasonably good at. Considering the fact that Meta Knight is exceptionally easy to learn, you would be a fool to waste your time trying to learn with him excessively to a point where you are wasting time you could have spent on other characters.

Meta Knight has his limits, as does every other character, and they are reflective of your skill level. If you think you can surpass them with Meta Knight to a point where it warrants you using him exclusively without other characters outside of your own personal taste, you're wrong.

You're belittling everyone who's spent months trying to find ways to deal with him. It's not just an assumption at this point, the part that's undemonstrated theorycrafting is the idea that any character is better than even with him.

The players who haven't found ways to deal with Meta Knight are, for a majority, the members of SWF that are not very good at the game. Of all the Pro Ban members or consistent whiners I see occupying the forums, it is rarely the players who do well.

But you no longer need to have those characters mastered if you're at least equally skilled with your opponent, because you can just beat them with your main instead -- and spend the time on that one character instead of having to hold two characters' playstyles in your head the way everyone else has to. Compounding the problem is you don't have to learn specific tricks of your second on each stage -- MK works fine on all of them still. So while there is no reason a pro has to only use MK, they can certainly get away with it and it will save them effort that everyone else must spend if they choose to, for little impact on their overall performance.

It doesn't matter if a player can get away with using only Meta Knight. They most certainly can. That does not mean that it is your best option in order to win, and that is the point I am making. Stating this is false simply because you have to take the time to learn the curve of another character is utter crap-- Brawl is no where near the depth of most competitive fighters, and it rather simple to learn the ins and outs of most characters within a relatively short amount of time.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Meta Knight has his limits, as does every other character, and they are reflective of your skill level. If you think you can surpass them with Meta Knight to a point where it warrants you using him exclusively without other characters outside of your own personal taste, you're wrong.

Prove this please.
What are his flaws and who exploits them?

The players who haven't found ways to deal with Meta Knight are, for a majority, the members of SWF that are not very good at the game. Of all the Pro Ban members or consistent whiners I see occupying the forums, it is rarely the players who do well.

Skill=/=good argument.
M2K argues like a moron. yet he is godly at the game.
Stop bringing this up people.

It doesn't matter if a player can get away with using only Meta Knight. They most certainly can.

You just said they couldn't.

That does not mean that it is your best option in order to win, and that is the point I am making. Stating this is false simply because you have to take the time to learn the curve of another character is utter crap-- Brawl is no where near the depth of most competitive fighters, and it rather simple to learn the ins and outs of most characters within a relatively short amount of time.

You will not get good with Sonic in a short amount of time.
nor with Snake. It takes time Mk just has less.

Anyways difficulty curve is not a factor I agree.
However MK is the safest option at all times. Why switch?

 

[Overswarm]

200 vote lead!!!!!!

 

[Ignatius]

Statistics ftl, still the same ratio of votes since the start, more or less.

 

[goldemblem]

Meta should be banned, everyone agrees

 

[aeghrur]

No he should not, jigglypuff hard counters him. Let's ban jigglypuff, she's too manly anyways. She'll make our wii's explode soon.

 

[Neb]

Er, I wish I could vote twice.

 

[Mmac]

Aside from the speed of his attacks, and his recovery, none of his attributes totally shatter that of second best contender for those said attributes. And in fact, there are characters who beat him outright in some of his good qualities.

I would really like it if you actually list who has better OoS Options, Edgeguarding, and Comboing, because I really would like to hear it.

Marth no longer has the amazing reach he has, so do not use Marth as an example. He has a good speed to range ratio, but his attacks wouldn't be considering long reach anymore. But even Marth in many areas, along with R.O.B., Donkey Kong, King Dedede, Snake, G&W in some areas... all out reach him. Lets not forget he doesn't have a projectile. Aside from DTilt, Glide Attack, and FTilt Meta Knights range really isn't that impressive. It is just good when you consider the speed those moves contain.

While some of their moves outrange them yes, you also have to see how practical their moveset is. ROB's has good side range with his Ftilt, but he really doesn't have any good way defending himself above or below. DK is in the same boat but is alittle less stiff. Dedede only good long range attack is his Ftilt, which is stiff as hell. Snake is a good one, but he gets overwhelmed in the air, and Game & Watch I think is a No. I also think he has more long ranged moves than those 3.

Also, the damage accumulation isn't more or less than any other character for the most part. Meta Knight just has good options for getting in to deal damage. If methods are used to prevent that, Meta Knights weak single hit strikes only do so much.

You know, preventing his methods of collecting damage is MUCH easier said than done.

Please do not make the gimping argument. DIing is ridiculously easy in Brawl, and aside from a select group of characters, you shouldn't be getting gimped by Meta Knight often if you know what you're doing.

DIing is easy, but what about returning to the stage? Unless you are ROB or Kirby or something with a just as good recovery, or something with invincibility like G&W or Yoshi (Not referring to his Armour BTW), sometimes he just puts you into a spot where Recovery is next to impossible.

Please don't bring up combos. His defenses are very good, but he is out classed by certain characters in that department, and that is how he loses. Edge guarding? He's **** good at that. I don't see how it sets him apart from the rest of the cast other than being the best character.

Brawl has Combo's, or at the very least, Strings. They do indeed exist.

You're still not classifying what characters outdo him, In this case, Defence

Edgeguarding doesn't set him apart? Isn't getting early kills with ease a major factor to look into?

You just basically proved me right. A large portion of the reason Meta Knights dominance is so high is likely due to M2Ks influence and tournament winnings. Even if Ken was largely responsible for the dominance Marth had, it still does not exclude the fact that Meta Knights dominance level is at about 33% right now if I recall correctly, while Marth had around a 44% dominance rating according to AZ. Correct me if my numbers are off, but the point is that Marth out classes Meta Knight currently as of now in results. What you think is going to happen is irrelevant as of right now for the sake of the argument you are making, because the fact of the matter is we haven't surpassed that point. When Meta Knight starts going past the 45 - 50% mark down the road, then you can throw tournament results in my face and I might take you seriously.

You are also forgetting that the Melee completive scene has been active for what? 5 Years? So it took 5 Years for Marth to reach 44%, but it took MetaKnight 8 Months to reach 33%....

Doing basic Math, Marth roughly accelerated .733% per Month, while MetaKnight is accelerating at 4.125% per month, more than 5 Times the amount of acceleration!

It's a rough estimate obviously, and Flawed due to unidentifiable variables, but anyone can tell you only an 11% difference with a 4.3 Year Deficit is just scary.

Irrelevant. We're not arguing the balance of Tiers, we're arguing the effects of Meta Knight on the tournament scene, with and without a ban. Marth could be completely even with the other High and Top characters for all I care, it still doesn't disprove the fact I gave to you, and that no other character in Melee was as dominant as Marth. If you're going to rely on Meta Knights tournament winnings and use them as a crutch for your claims, you can't ignore this.

Look at post above

It is irrelevant if he does nothing for the community. I can sit here all day and write an essay about how Captain Falcon does nothing good for the tournament scene because of how useless he is. We're not arguing that. Whether or not the game would be better with or without him is your personal opinion, and I nor anyone else here really cares about it unless it actually holds meaning to supporting the competitive grounds. Just because you like or dislike something does not mean we will make decisions based on that for you, so please next time give me something less to quote.

We're deciding if he is broken, and worthy of a ban. Not if you like him.

When I said he does nothing good for the community, I mean he makes the **** game too One Dimensional, and breaks all the variety and systems the previous game had! Not because I don't like him (Which I don't).

or the odd person will argue ridiculous claims like Zelda, Fox, Sheik, Yoshi (yes Mmac, I know you claim he is even at best, but you're not the only one making claims here)

I love how you just single me out. I have been posting nothing but facts, statistics, and comparison when it came to Yoshi vs. MetaKnight. Plus if it was so ridiculous, then why is so many MetaKnight agreeing to it?

You don't want MetaKnight banned, but at the same time, you are contesting the very qualities that could end up him not being banned.



It seems like ShadowLink is doing a good job though, and he pretty much covered almost everything I said, wasting alot of my time

i seriously cannot get enough of these yoshi emotes...

Thanks

 

[Ulevo]

Prove this please.
What are his flaws and who exploits them?

What his flaws are is irrelevant to what you're asking me to prove. Pikachu has a 100% Chain Grab on Fox, and mauls him even without the Chain Grab. Even if the match up is 7:3 for Meta Knight, if the the match up is 8:2 or 9:1 for Pikachu, it is worth more to learn Pikachu because you have that extra advantage. Brawl being a relatively easy game to learn does not warrant you sticking with a single character unless he has a better advantage against every character than any other character, which regardless of Meta Knights strengths, he clearly does not.

Skill=/=good argument.
M2K argues like a moron. yet he is godly at the game.
Stop bringing this up people.

Who says I am talking about exclusively M2K? And what does his debating skills have anything to do with this? I am simply pointing out that it is usually poor players unable to cope with Meta Knight as a character that are the ones who persist to have him banned.

You just said they couldn't.

I didn't say you couldn't. I said it would be stupid not to.

You will not get good with Sonic in a short amount of time.
nor with Snake. It takes time Mk just has less.

We obviously have two very different grasps on this game.

Anyways difficulty curve is not a factor I agree.
However MK is the safest option at all times. Why switch?

Why switch? Because if your opponent chooses Snake, regardless of whether or not Snake has the advantage, there is a possibility he could maul you if he is near your skill level. Why take that risk? Why would you use Meta Knight knowing full well you could mess it up? Dedede is a significantly safer option. Meta Knight is only a safe option during the first match of a set, or after a match you've won in a set. If you've lost, and have the option to counter, you'd be an idiot to not going with the better ratio, regardless of how good Meta Knight is.

As for your previous quotes, I'm too lazy to bother with them. Half of it I've already addressed and you're just repeating yourself, some of you're just wrong on, and I've wasted too much time arguing in this thread anyway. Sorry to drop the ball.

Edit: Same goes to you too Mmac. I just don't feel like continuing this at the present time. Maybe tomorrow or when I have time next. For the record, I was singling you out because you claim Meta Knight and Yoshi to be even at best, with plausible examples, while others naively state Yoshi has a clear advantage. Also, people consistently agree with you because they're sheep, not because it's the truth. Sad but true. Not to say you don't hold good points, but they have yet to be proven and people just tend to retain the meaning of your words a little more then they should without it actually being played out in a tournament atmosphere.

 

[salaboB]

What his flaws are is irrelevant to what you're asking me to prove. Pikachu has a 100% Chain Grab on Fox, and mauls him even without the Chain Grab. Even if the match up is 7:3 for Meta Knight, if the the match up is 8:2 or 9:1 for Pikachu, it is worth more to learn Pikachu because you have that extra advantage. Brawl being a relatively easy game to learn does not warrant you sticking with a single character unless he has a better advantage against every character than any other character, which regardless of Meta Knights strengths, he clearly does not.

No it's not automatically worth it.

Because it takes a significant amount of time to learn all those tactics of Pikachu that allow him to have that huge advantage, including ways to set up the grabs and just general playing with him. Also, do you really recommend seconding 10 different characters so you can get that high-benefit CP against everyone you might face? I think if this were a realistic way to win tournies we'd see someone actually having done it, there are certainly people who are good enough...if it worked out as well in practice as theory.

Alternatively, if you're better at MK you're doing better in MK dittos, in matchups with no massive CP advantage, and in every other matchup that you wouldn't have time to learn the CP characters for. Edit: You're also better during the first round, when you most likely can't counterpick someone and will thus have to go with your safest option.

 

[Minwu]

Fox wasn't banned in Melee even though he had no bad matchups.

Jigglypuff gave Fox a hard time. Fox's recovery is horrible in Melee.

 

[Furbs]

Roy gave fox a hard time too

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Marth? Battlefield or Final Destination? Bad matchup for Fox?!?!?!

Nah, that's not possible, or else Marth would be winning more tournaments...oh wait!

lol?

 

[1048576]

Certain stages gave Fox issues. Any character could 0-death Fox on a missed l-cancel. Perfect control Fox was unbeatable, but he was also unplayable.

 

[brinboy789]

BRAWL marth has currently no bad matchups, except for MK who doesnt count be cause he has no bad matchups.

 

[BibulousDan]

GAH! hes broken people! his recovery is beastly and his attacks are ****-a-licious, and i think by the polls most people agree with me

 

[Overswarm]

BRAWL marth has currently no bad matchups, except for MK who doesnt count be cause he has no bad matchups.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Mmac]

You know, ever since AlphaZealot made that thread, everyone now looks at Melee Marth like he's super awesome omega MetaKnight Broken now.....

 

[AndrewCarlson]

BRAWL marth has currently no bad matchups, except for MK who doesnt count be cause he has no bad matchups.

Marth has at least 3 match-ups that are considered a disadvantage for him. Meta Knight is considered to be 35-65, and Snake and Dedede are 45:55.

 

[brinboy789]

Marth has at least 3 match-ups that are considered a disadvantage for him. Meta Knight is considered to be 35-65, and Snake and Dedede are 45:55.

i said MK doesnt count, and snake and dedede are arguably neutral. so for discussion purposes, he has no matchups.

 

[Natch]

i said MK doesnt count, and snake and dedede are arguably neutral. so for discussion purposes, he has no matchups.

Why doesn't MK count?

 

[Dark Sonic]

i said MK doesnt count, and snake and dedede are arguably neutral. so for discussion purposes, he has no matchups.

How are they arguably neutral? If they're not even, they're not neutral (since neutral is defined as even).

And hell, there still some dispute with those two matchups anyway (since they really only apply if the Marth player spaces perfectly for the entire match)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

multijumps+shuttleloop+every aerial.

Sorry you're not convincing. bring up characters he cannot gimp, bring up his inability to keep after the opponent once they are struck.

He can't gimp Yoshi with him having super armor and an airdodge near the end of it. If Snake up B's correctly he can recover safe from gimping. Jigglypuff has better air mobility and can avoid Fairs and Nairs, while pounds back to the stage while conserving jumps.

 

[Sliq]

Jigglypuff gave Fox a hard time. Fox's recovery is horrible in Melee.

No.

(10 are you highs?)

 

[brinboy789]

No.

(10 are you highs?)

if fox doesnt know how to DI, then fox is screwed...

/offtopic

 

[AndrewCarlson]

i said MK doesnt count, and snake and dedede are arguably neutral. so for discussion purposes, he has no matchups.

They must still be taken into account, as good match-ups all around mean nothing if you can't counter the Top Tier characters. The fact that Marth doesn't do well against the Top 3 characters means he is hardly a threat when compared to Meta Knight.

 

[Overswarm]

if fox doesnt know how to DI, then fox is screwed...

/offtopic

And if someone doesn't know how to shield, Ike's f-smash is broken.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Marth also has exploitable weaknesses. like his recovery, which pretty much everyone can punish at least somewhat.

 

[BentoBox]

*disregard this post*