Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

D-air beats the tornado, so lol @ it having bad priority.

The tornado has no hitbox above MK, D-air isn't beating it so much as being so tiny it doesn't engage it.

You're not really helping your argument by not being completely familiar with the character you're saying does well (Edit: or with the character you're saying he does well against).

 

[da K.I.D.]

against MK:

Fox: gets ***** up the butt
Sonic: gets ***** in the butt, ears, nose, mouth, and eyes.

fox still gets *****, just not as much as other people

 

[Inui]

I don't think Fox does well. I just don't think it's hopeless.

I've seen Fox's d-air win against other stuff, so I never thought it had horrible priority.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Seeing M2K's MK pick apart Dojo's MK made me think that a ban should be held off for the time being. People still have a lot to learn about the character, and the game in general. Not really interested in theory or how things look on paper anymore.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It doesn't have horrible priority because it's an aerial. Aerials (other than Olimar's pikmin using ones) don't have priority; it's just about range and what hits first.

Why are people reading this poll as a mandate to ban Meta Knight? Stop rounding it to 60-40, it's 57.2-42.8 which makes the difference only 14.4 percentage points between the two sides, not 20 percentage points. That's hardly a mandate by the community to ban him, and the general principle of "when in doubt, don't ban" should be remembered here to interpret this as a sign that the community isn't ready to ban him at all (at least the part of the community that bothers to post in this poll). That's regardless of whether it's warranted; it's just how I read this poll.

I think Shady Penguin sums up what I see a lot of pro-ban people thinking which is a BIG problem.

When you're as imbalanced as Meta Knight, you are "too good", and I don't see where somebody made it a rule that only impossible to beat characters can be banned.

To look at all this stuff simply, we should decide to ban MK based on if things will be better overall without him.

On the pro-ban side, we have a lot of agreed upon match-up evidence and tourney evidence. On the no ban side, we mostly have blind hope that new discoveries will smite MK, and very specific examples of MK losing/not doing great.

NO! We shouldn't ban him just because things would be "better overall without him" (whatever that means). In order to ban a character, which is a VERY EXTREME AND RADICAL thing to do, the game should be overwhelmingly better without him to the point where we are changing the game from a game in which one character is the only viable option to one where lots of characters are viable options. If you think that criteria is met now, explain why Meta Knight only wins 40%ish of tournaments even when you count everyone who just uses Meta Knight as a secondary toward that total.

I mean, melee would have been "better overall" without Sheik just because you would then be able to pick a sucky character like Ness or Mr. Game & Watch or Pikachu or something and not worry about being chainthrown all over the place (you're losing to the other top characters via FAR more interaction). Of course, that's a totally ridiculous argument to ban Sheik in melee, and no one with any credibility has ever supported it. So why should this sort of ridiculously low bar for a ban fly in brawl?

 

[Justblaze647]

"On the pro-ban side, we have a lot of agreed upon match-up evidence and tourney evidence. On the no ban side, we mostly have blind hope that new discoveries will smite MK, and very specific examples of MK losing/not doing great."

So... what exactly are you arguing..?

 

[Espy Rose]

Seeing M2K's MK pick apart Dojo's MK made me think that a ban should be held off for the time being. People still have a lot to learn about the character, and the game in general. Not really interested in theory or how things look on paper anymore.

Wait what?

So, you're saying to wait on a ban, because the best MK beat another MK?

Care to elaborate?

In all honesty, waiting longer and longer will only cause MKers to improve to the levels of Dojo, M2K, Plank, whoever good plays MK...

That'll only make the "pro-ban" side stronger, or at the very least, make most of the scrubs more *****y, resulting in what could be the worst case of scrub-itus Smashboards will ever see.

 

[Inui]

Every time the MKs over here get better, other players find ways to get better, too. In fact, some of our MKs recently fell from grace and no longer even take top 3. Forte's been scoring 5ths and stuff, IIRC.

 

[Espy Rose]

Every time the MKs over here get better, other players find ways to get better, too. In fact, some of our MKs recently fell from grace and no longer even take top 3. Forte's been scoring 5ths and stuff, IIRC.

I only hope this trend continues. If not, the only deciding factor in future tournaments will be "How well can you punish MK's almost non-existant lag".

 

[Turbo Ether]

Wait what?

So, you're saying to wait on a ban, because the best MK beat another MK?

Care to elaborate?

In all honesty, waiting longer and longer will only cause MKers to improve to the levels of Dojo, M2K, Plank, whoever good plays MK...

That'll only make the "pro-ban" side stronger, or at the very least, make most of the scrubs more *****y, resulting in what could be the worst case of scrub-itus Smashboards will ever see.

I did elaborate. Re-read the second sentence.

 

[Espy Rose]

I did elaborate. Re-read the second sentence.

Couldn't that also apply to M2K and the MKs?

They haven't reached their pinnacle yet either. Every character still has ample space for improvement.

 

[Inui]

I only hope this trend continues. If not, the only deciding factor in future tournaments will be "How well can you punish MK's almost non-existant lag".

Meta Knight has to commit himself to a lot of his moves. His multi-hit stuff is punishable as hell. His f-air and b-air last a long time and give you time to punish them. His f-tilt is punishable on any part of it.

PLUS ON BLOCK DOESN'T EXIST IN SMASH. In fact, not even neutral on block exists unless you artificially create it with perfect spacing. This means anything can be punished if you react and choose the right move.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Couldn't that also apply to M2K and the MKs?

They haven't reached their pinnacle yet either. Every character still has ample space for improvement.

Exactly. If there's ample time for characters and strategies to develop, is there not also ample time to wait to ban MK?

 

[Espy Rose]

Exactly. If there's ample time for characters and strategies to develop, is there not also ample time to wait to ban MK?

It depends on the results of said development.

The problem is, MK is ****** most people right now, in a peculiar way. He's kinda restricting the characters that are viable.

He definately isn't forcing anyone to change, but because of his properties and how well he does in most tournaments as of now, the best odds of winning are to pick him.

And some people don't feel it just to be forced to pick someone like MK, just to win.

There's definately time, but I feel that it's equally dangerous to wait longer to ban MK than it is to ban MK right now.

Makes me glad that MK-Banned Tournaments are happening already though. It gives us a glimpse at what people have to say about those kind of tournaments.

I've heard plenty of positive feedback from those participants.

 

[Inui]

After looking at the people that voted in this poll more, it seems to be mostly a non-Atlantic North thing. The Atlantic North region seems to be in favour of keeping him allowed for the most part. We just seem to be able to take down Meta Knight better or something.

I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record with the meat-riding of my own region, but if we can handle Meta Knight, I'm sure other places can, too.

 

[da K.I.D.]

honestly i dont see the validity in saying that banning a character is sacred and drastic.

stages
items
gameplay modes
all of these were banned rather quickly.

its all for the sake of fair competition. so why is this one ban so much more monumental than everything else, its doing it for the same reason. to make it a better competitive game.

EDIT
@ Inui, Rochester is in that area, and we handle MK well, people beat MKs all the time...
they just end up having to use MK to do it

 

[Espy Rose]

honestly i dont see the validity in saying that banning a character is sacred and drastic.

stages
items
gameplay modes
all of these were banned rather quickly.

its all for the sake of fair competition. so why is this one ban so much more monumental than everything else, its doing it for the same reason. to make it a better competitive game.

EDIT
@ Inui, Rochester is in that area, and we handle MK well, people beat MKs all the time...
they just end up having to use MK to do it

If this post could be manifested into reality, I'd have sex with it.

 

[salaboB]

I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record with the meat-riding of my own region, but if we can handle Meta Knight, I'm sure other places can, too.

I suspect you guys have him effectively soft banned, which would mean two things: A ban in the other areas wouldn't need to be applied in yours, and you're not seeing most of the MK potential that the other places are having crush their best efforts -- because the best players in your region aren't using him. So you don't see the need to ban him as strongly because he's already partially banned (Even if unofficially) for you.

 

[Deoxys]

After looking at the people that voted in this poll more, it seems to be mostly a non-Atlantic North thing. The Atlantic North region seems to be in favour of keeping him allowed for the most part. We just seem to be able to take down Meta Knight better or something.

I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record with the meat-riding of my own region, but if we can handle Meta Knight, I'm sure other places can, too.

It's cause we're too good!

Spoiler

OMFG no tourneys in MA

 

[Napilopez]

Lol you guys. To say our best players dont use him is quite an assumption, because quite a number of good players use him, and get beaten by others. You can't really compare our players to yours if they haven't faced eachother that much. If MK is as bannable as he is then wouldn't it be relative anyways?

We just need a national tourney, and have a Atlantic north beat like, alot of meta's from around the US lol.

And KID, you bring up a good point about the banning of stages and items and whatnot, and I agree with you for the most part. But I just don't think those thigns are as monumental as banning a character. Because there aren't that many people who dedicate hours into practicing with certain items or stages, like some people put hundreds of hours into practicing metaknight. And most of those items were banned shortly after the release of the game, and there are some stages people would deem obviously unfit for competitive play. Like 75m. So yea.

I'm still against the ban, I see no clear evidence that it needs to happen now. The one thing that intrigued me about banning him are the MK-less tourney results, because it really does open up the counter-pick system. But that still doesn't seem enough to warrant a ban imo.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

honestly i dont see the validity in saying that banning a character is sacred and drastic.

stages
items
gameplay modes
all of these were banned rather quickly.

its all for the sake of fair competition. so why is this one ban so much more monumental than everything else, its doing it for the same reason. to make it a better competitive game.

EDIT
@ Inui, Rochester is in that area, and we handle MK well, people beat MKs all the time...
they just end up having to use MK to do it

You misunderstand quite a bit. I'll work from the bottom up.

Gameplay modes: We can only play in one mode at a time so it's not like we're "banning" high gravity or time mode or anything by not using them. We're just sticking to a standard that makes the best game, and it doesn't require any banning at all. Using a setting isn't banning something.

Items aren't banned either. If Peach pulls a Beam Sword, is she disqualified? Of course not. Items too are a setting. You have to choose in the settings menu whether they spawn or not and which ones spawn at which rates. We just choose to use the settings of none with all items off. If you happen to get an item anyway, you're free to use it.

Due to the mechanics of stage selection, it is fair to say we banned some stages. Really though, some stages do so drastically ruin the game that we have to ban them. It's trivial to explain why Temple is brokenly unplayable, and I'm sure we can agree that the game would fall apart if the level were not banned. I think a lot of people would agree that some groups are WAY too ban happy with stages; do you notice that some of the people asserting that banning Meta Knight is stupid were also arguing constantly over stage lists, usually in favor of allowing more stages? It's the same principle; we have to allow as much as possible. The main difference in ferocity of argumentation here is that improperly banning a stage is just slightly limiting the ability of players to be competitive while improperly banning a character pretty much ruins the game.

Yes, you are risking completely ruining the game by banning Meta Knight; some people don't get that. Games that ban characters inherently lose a ton of credibility competitively, especially when the character they ban isn't some boss character designed to be broken. It's one thing when Guilty Gear has Kliff and Justice who win for free or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has Akuma who prevents most characters from even moving; they're boss characters who are broken for the sake of being broken, and it's distastful but somewhat acceptable. Banning a character who is just a random character (like Meta Knight) just makes it hard to take the game seriously at all, and when it's not even warranted, you end up never being good at the real game because you never got practice against the banned character.

 

[Reioumu]

After looking at the people that voted in this poll more, it seems to be mostly a non-Atlantic North thing. The Atlantic North region seems to be in favour of keeping him allowed for the most part. We just seem to be able to take down Meta Knight better or something.

I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record with the meat-riding of my own region, but if we can handle Meta Knight, I'm sure other places can, too.

MEATRIDE SON!

Anyway, yeah, in the atlantic north region it does seem like we can do better against him.

Also, if you want to ban metaknight, you might as well just make your tourney low tiers.
-Rei

 

[Espy Rose]

And KID, you bring up a good point about the banning of stages and items and whatnot, and I agree with you for the most part. But I just don't think those thigns are as monumental as banning a character.

Wasn't there a HUGE dispute of items back in Melee between the WC and the EC?

Yes, you are risking completely ruining the game by banning Meta Knight; some people don't get that. Games that ban characters inherently lose a ton of credibility competitively, especially when the character they ban isn't some boss character designed to be broken...Banning a character who is just a random character (like Meta Knight) just makes it hard to take the game seriously at all, and when it's not even warranted, you end up never being good at the real game because you never got practice against the banned character.

And you are risking completely ruining the game by keeping Meta Knight in. Perhaps you don't get that.

And as I've said before, what warrants a ban or not is still too subjective for any group on Smashboards to come up with a viable set of guidelines as to what properties a character contains that gives a justified reason for a ban.

And to the third bold: So?

He's banned, he won't ever see the light of day again in tournaments. Another thing too: Just because he's banned in tournaments doesn't mean he's banned in friendlies, not to mention that people will suddenly forget how to play Meta Knight completely.

Everyone more or less knows what Meta knight can do. Banning him right now will just freeze his progression, and none of that knowledge from the players will be forgotten.

If you wanted to play the "real" game, then why not turn on items, stages, or why not go play Coin Match tournaments?

They are all branches of the "real" game afterall, are they not?

 

[Mmac]

Let's just take a look at MetaKnight for a second, and his Qualities. Starting with his Pros

- Best Recovery in the game
- Best Edgeguarding in the game
- Best Attack Speed in the game
- Best OoS Options in the game
- One of the best Combo Potentials in the game
- Excellent Damage Collecting Game
- High Priority on all attacks
- Great Range
- Tornado is one of the best moves in the game, with very few practical counters
- One of the fastest ground movement speeds
- Great KO Options
--- Doesn't help the fact that all of his killers (Except Fsmash) is practically lagless, and very hard to defend against
- Good Air Resistance
- Is pretty small
- Looks Awesome!

And his cons....

- One of the Lighter Characters
- One of the Slowest Airspeeds in the game
- His Air Break from a Grab can be Exploited from a few characters *CoughYoshiCough*


You can't deny that he's overpowered by a considerable amount. It also doesn't help that against most characters, he has absolutely no weaknesses that can be exploited against him. Nobody in the history of Smash had this many strengths without a considerable amount of Weaknesses to balance the scales.

Comparing to the next characters to come in Line (Snake, Dedede, G&W), they all have considerable amount of weaknesses to counterbalance their strengths. MetaKnight has nothing! Even Melee Fox had Weaknesses anyone can exploit!

Granted he might not be as broken as Akuma, but he's still overpowered, especially compared to the rest of the cast. Hell, compared to the other games, he's even doing better dominating their game better than Yun or Melee Fox! I don't think there's a current Fighting game where a Top Tier Character is dominating on the same scale as him.

He's just Broken, it's as simple as that!


Done writing, Tired, Sleep now

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You really have to be joking if you can't see the difference. Removing a character is so much more fundamental than all of that, and playing coin mode is preventing you from playing stock mode. The game isn't any more "the real game" with items on (a HUGE misconception); it's just settings being tweaked, and the main effect turning items on does is add variance, not change who does the best overall. Anyone who says items are banned just doesn't understand the rules, seriously. Do we ban Peach and Diddy players? They make TONS of items.

There's little risk of ruining the game by leaving Meta Knight in. Isn't "Atlantic North" generally considered the best region anyway? If they are doing the best at beating Meta Knight, it just suggests that a lot of local metagames need to step it up. This is another big problem. A lot of people seem to lose to something and assume fault with the game. It's not the game's fault you lose; it's your fault you lose. You should assume this constantly until it becomes completely obvious that it's not true. It's the mindset of someone who is serious about improving at a game. This regional question is odd though.

This is so interesting that I thought I'd compile Meta Knight's win percentage in the various regions in the way Ankoku tracks them. I'll leave in the "raw data" as I counted them from the bottom up so people can look it over and check me on any mistakes I might have made. This only looks at September and October.

Midwest: xxxxoxxxxoxxox 3/14 (21.4%)
Pacific West: xxoxoxxoxxxxxxx 3/15 (20%)
Atlantic North: xxooxxoooxoxxooox 9/17 (52.9%)
Atlantic South: xoxxxx 1/6 (16.7%)
Southwest: ooooxxoxxooo 8/12 (66.7%)
Australia: oxoxx 2/5 (40%)
Canada: o 1/1 (100%)
Europe: x 0/1 (0%)

Well, Canada and Europe obviously suck at reporting results so you can safely ignore them (though oddly Australia seems to report just fine). It seems to me like Southwest is the main place Meta Knight is doing so well, and it's only 4th activity wise so I doubt their metagame is way more developed than the rest of the nation. It's flat out uncanny that the reports are that the Northeast is the region that handles him best; they are one of the only two regions with more than one result that have a greater than 50% win rate for Meta Knight.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

heh... maybe this poll should have had more options than just yes or no?

-yeah he should definitely be banned
-he should probably be banned, but not yet. we need to give it more time
-MK isn't broken enough to be banned
-I don't play at a high enough level for this to even affect me

seem like good options?

*slinks into shadows*

 

[Tristan_win]

...I just voted

Here's what convince me to vote
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=5360&page=2

 

[Ulevo]

Let's just take a look at MetaKnight for a second, and his Qualities. Starting with his Pros

- Best Recovery in the game
- Best Edgeguarding in the game
- Best Attack Speed in the game
- Best OoS Options in the game
- One of the best Combo Potentials in the game
- Excellent Damage Collecting Game
- High Priority on all attacks
- Great Range
- Tornado is one of the best moves in the game, with very few practical counters
- One of the fastest ground movement speeds
- Great KO Options
--- Doesn't help the fact that all of his killers (Except Fsmash) is practically lagless, and very hard to defend against
- Good Air Resistance
- Is pretty small
- Looks Awesome!

And his cons....

- One of the Lighter Characters
- One of the Slowest Airspeeds in the game
- His Air Break from a Grab can be Exploited from a few characters *CoughYoshiCough*


You can't deny that he's overpowered by a considerable amount. It also doesn't help that against most characters, he has absolutely no weaknesses that can be exploited against him. Nobody in the history of Smash had this many strengths without a considerable amount of Weaknesses to balance the scales.

Comparing to the next characters to come in Line (Snake, Dedede, G&W), they all have considerable amount of weaknesses to counterbalance their strengths. MetaKnight has nothing! Even Melee Fox had Weaknesses anyone can exploit!

Granted he might not be as broken as Akuma, but he's still overpowered, especially compared to the rest of the cast. Hell, compared to the other games, he's even doing better dominating their game better than Yun or Melee Fox! I don't think there's a current Fighting game where a Top Tier Character is dominating on the same scale as him.

He's just Broken, it's as simple as that!


Done writing, Tired, Sleep now

You're looking at this too far into simply black and white, and it's blinding to your judgement, or anyone else who happens to see things this way.

First off, if you're comparing the number of pros Meta Knight has compared to his cons, and using that total as a comparison to others, of course he's going to be broken. You're totally ignoring exactly how prominent those pros are when compared to different characters, and you're not considering the strengths of other characters that are able to compete with Meta Knight.

Most characters that do not have any tools to exploit weaknesses on Meta Knight are the characters that are too low on the Tier List to compete with any other Top or High Tier character anyway. You're acting as if Meta Knight just ruins everyone with no exploits, when it really isn't true. Some characters have significantly longer reach than he does on many attacks, while others are much stronger than he is, and die later. There are characters that deal damage better than he does, and have more KO options. What makes Meta Knight an amazing character is that he has most qualities bundled into one package that are above average to good. For the most part, aside from his attack speed and recovery, he doesn't have an overwhelmingly outstanding qualities.

Oh, for the record, Marth had a higher dominance in Melee than Meta Knight currently does now. He wasn't even considered the best character.

 

[BrawlBro]

...I just voted

Here's what convince me to vote
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=5360&page=2

that was a great article and since eveyone in here wont read it.....


what it said is this " we HAVE banned things in the past just because they made the game less competitive, scrub friendly, and less enjoyable."

all things metaknight does, but right there he was referring to ITEMS!

"People act as if Meta has to be completely broken and ruin the game to unplayable to ban him. I say that idea is inconsistent to what we've banned as a community so far."


Why must meta completely break the game (I believe an actual possibility) before we do something about it? If its imbalanced and people dont like it, why keep it?

 

[Smash_Typhoon]

I agree that he should be banned 100% for 1 very important reason. There is just to many people playing him. He is all over the tornaments. Most of my freinds and cousins play him. I play him??!!??

Thats it im out of MK ban topics forever

 

[Ulevo]

...I just voted

Here's what convince me to vote
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=5360&page=2

The problem with his points is that he is wrong about character match ups with Meta Knight.

G&W, Dedede, Snake, Falco all considerably **** certain characters in the cast. Probably more so than Meta Knight does. For most of the match ups, Meta Knight just has an advantage, not a 7:3 ratio, unless they are (again) lower Tier characters, which (again) would have big disadvantages against most characters anyway.

Also, that's half the problem with the statement he made. The second half of it is that Meta Knight does have disadvantages of other characters. He doesn't have solid counters, no. But Snake has the advantage. I'm quite adamant on Falco having the advantage too, and Diddy is another potential example.

Even if I am wrong on that, it doesn't change the fact that many members of the community cannot properly decide on what Meta Knights actual match up statistics are. People just go around spouting "He has no counters." Really? Why the hell have his match ups not been decided yet then? You glance into the Marth boards, you can tell they know what the hell it is they're talking about. You go into the Meta Knight boards? You have idiots running around saying Meta Knight is broken, and that he goes even with Fox.

As of right now, if you want to assume Meta Knight has no disadvantages, then yes. He breaks the counter pick system. But that is all based on your assumptions of his match ups. Either people need to start thoroughly discussing his statistics the way the Marth boards have, or more time needs to pass to effectively determine them.

 

[XienZo]

I though Snake lost with proper spacing and the not-yet-banned ledgecamping eats Falco alive....

 

[Ulevo]

I though Snake lost with proper spacing and the not-yet-banned ledgecamping eats Falco alive....

The only edge Meta Knight really has on Snake is the ability to gimp his recovery. Which shouldn't happen if you properly DI, and recover from high up. Snake can out space Meta Knight with proper Grenade use, FTilt and UTilt. Meta Knight essentially has to KO Snake through a blastzone, which he will lose at in the long run because of how heavy and powerful Snake is.

Falco is put in an akward position vs ledge camping Meta Knight, but there are ways to deal with the problem. He can't ledge camp you if you're ahead in percent, which isn't uncommon due to the 60% Chain Grab.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I was under the impression that snake only beats MKs who don't know how to space propperly.

 

[Sliq]

I'll say, while we're at it, let's ban books, too. Those things are hard to read. I don't like hard things. Makes doing harder, and I'm already too lazy to do competently, let alone well.

 

[l0n3r]

Sure there are too many MK's, sure he's spammable, sure he's on the brink of GODLY, people have spent time to be him we shouldt take that away

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll say, while we're at it, let's ban books, too. Those things are hard to read. I don't like hard things. Makes doing harder, and I'm already too lazy to do competently, let alone well.

umm... I can't understand a word of what is bolded.

and before that. um. was that a serious response? I know it was sarcastic, but it's also completely irrelivent. It's not really responding to the argument for banning MK. It's just non-sequiter... adn I don't think that was your intent.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

I'll say, while we're at it, let's ban books, too. Those things are hard to read. I don't like hard things. Makes doing harder, and I'm already too lazy to do competently, let alone well.

Lets ban my underwhere too, then. It is easy to wear. I don't like easy things. So we must ban all of them. And Mk gives you easy wins.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The only edge Meta Knight really has on Snake is the ability to gimp his recovery. Which shouldn't happen if you properly DI, and recover from high up. Snake can out space Meta Knight with proper Grenade use, FTilt and UTilt. Meta Knight essentially has to KO Snake through a blastzone, which he will lose at in the long run because of how heavy and powerful Snake is.

Dude do you even realize how bad that argument is?
Considering the fact that MK has multiple jumps and his shuttle loop it does not matte rhow high Snake will go because MK can follow him well.
Let us also not forget the fact that Snake's aerial game is complete crap to MK. He loses in both speed and priority aerially.
Let us also remember thef act that MK has much higher attack speed than Snake and has many methods of getting apst the grenade spam.

If MK properly spaces his attacks Snake is incapable of punishing nor capable of responding properly to MK's attacks.
Snake being big and heavy does not aid him because he has a slower attack speed, no reliable aerial move, no method of truly outranging MK without leaving himself vulnerable. He gets zoned. He gets dominated aerially, his recovery is very vulnerable.

Grenade camping only works on MK who are overly aggressive which they should not be to begin with.

Falco is put in an akward position vs ledge camping Meta Knight, but there are ways to deal with the problem. He can't ledge camp you if you're ahead in percent, which isn't uncommon due to the 60% Chain Grab.

This is true but unlike MK he doesn't necessarily have an extremely reliable way of killing MK.
He also gets zoned by MK badly on ground and in the air. Once MK has gotten close Falco has no guaranteed method of getting MK away without placing himself in risk of getting zoned.

It is not just ledge camping its the speed, range and mobility of MK that causes issues for Falco and Snake.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lets ban my underwhere too, then. It is easy to wear. I don't like easy things. So we must ban all of them. And Mk gives you easy wins.

you are teh preverbial TO of your own clothes, so feel free to ban things that are easy to put on. you can just stick to corsets and 6 inch heels

@ulevo, i take offense to you thinking that low tier characters cant compete even without MK, sonic is a prime example. he has close-to-neutral, to neutral matchups, with everyone in top tier, but is 80-20, possibly 90-10 with MK im sure this can be said for a multitude of characters that straight up get ***** by Mk but do decently against everybody else