Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[|RK|]

I don't think there's anything wrong with citing commonly accepted match ups if you don't main the character. For instance it's commonly accepted that falco>DDD, or DDD>Snake. A few people may feel differently, however in the majority of cases these are CPs.

Some matchups like the Wario, Diddy, and Snake Match up with Meta knight are arguable. If you want to call people out on these match ups in particular then that is your perogative, see what evidence they have to back up their opinion. If I were to say something about the Diddy matchup, you could call me on it, and I could cite Le Thien's essay about it. I don't play the matchup, but I have evidence that I believe in.

Basically I'm trying to say that people should be able to spout match up numbers as they wish, if you have a problem with a specific instance than say that to that person.

But that creates arguments in threads not about matchups. Also, there are many who can counter that essay there. Even pro players are split.

 

[Cirno]

Obviously not for Brawl. Brawl is not 64 or Melee, mind you. If a child breaks the radiator, what are you going to want to fix? First you remodel the radiator system. Then you have a shrink analyze the child. Why did you break it?

If you get the metaphors, awesome.

Your name is Cirno. Do I know you... >:/

I lurk and post randomly because eye'm the strongest.

And I get the metaphor, but I don't think the cp system has changed at all. You lost using x character vs y character, z character has more options than y character and you want to switch --so you switch to z to beat y. We still do this except for MK (for now).

The biggest difference between the three was is that 64 had a radiator made of titanium, Melee's was made of Steel, and Brawl's is made of plastic.

A 60/40 in 64 is much different than a 60/40 in Brawl because of the hit stun.

I'd be fine if it was just MK and Snake, but it's not, because Snake has bad matchups.

I see people say this all the time.

Why?

I can see saying it would be better than all MK, but fine with just the two?
How is it much better than an all MK situation?

To all the people using over centralization: Thinf SF3 third strike, where the metagame is all Chun-Li and Yun. Neither of those characters are banned, and MK falls under the same catagory. To ban a character simply because their game is revolving around him is stupid and does nothing but prove that the Brawl community if full of whining people who could careless about skill being in this game.

Sf3rd is really weird in comparison to Brawl because of the way things turned out for characters.

Yun beat everybody and went even with Makoto.
Chunli beat everybody worse (for the most part) and lost to Yun.
And Kens just showed up won every now and then.

In Brawl

MK currently beats everyone with debated evens here and there.

Every character he beats is often ***** harder by another member of the cast G&W, DDD,ICs, ect. or just as badly beaten by Marth.

And depending on who's playing another character wins every now and then ( Pika, Wario, Snake, Luigi, ect.)

And then the stage counter pick which just ended in MKs favor except one board.

All DDDs best stages were MK's worse stages.
All DDDs best ended up banned giving MK only 3 heavily debated "bad" stages (Norfair, Halberd, and FD)
Luigi's Mansion is banned for stalling possibilities(?)/ hit/run tactics

Dreamland alliance?

lol

 

[|RK|]

I lurk and post randomly because eye'm the strongest.

All DDDs best stages were MK's worse stages.
All DDDs best ended up banned giving MK only 3 heavily debated "bad" stages (Norfair, Halberd, and FD)
Luigi's Mansion is banned for stalling possibilities(?)/ hit/run tactics

Dreamland alliance?

lol

That and Kirby, MK, and Dedede cover MKs bad matchups rather nicely.

 

[1048576]

What bad matchups? Name one.

 

[:mad:]

That and Kirby, MK, and Dedede cover MKs bad matchups rather nicely.

MK covers his own non-existant bad matchups? lololololllloloolol.

 

[CRASHiC]

Metaknight trembles at 55:45

 

[|RK|]

MK covers his own non-existant bad matchups? lololololllloloolol.

Yeah, I know what I'm talking about. I figured that there'd be confusion. By this, I mean his worse matchups. You know, like his near-even ones?

 

[Kewkky]

What bad matchups? Name one.

I believe that he meant "MK's bad matchups are Kirby, MK, and DDD" overall, in any stage, not just depending on flat stages or stages without platforms.

 

[Red Arremer]

Jeez this thread moves at the speed of light.

However, if you consider overcentralization (i.e., a lack of diversity) as a valid criteria for a ban, it becomes obvious that Akuma is indeed ban-worthy.

And that is why he was banned. Overcentralization. The game became "use Akuma or lose." That state of affairs came to be as a symptom of his being very close to broken, true, but a game of only Akuma mirror matches is not broken. It is overcentralized. And thus he was banned.

However, this is not the case with Meta Knight. Just because Meta Knight players place consistently, it doesn't make Meta Knight unbeatable. I see many players consistently beat Meta Knight.

You know, I always hear that so many people switched to Meta Knight and suddenly placed better because of it. Well, most of those people I heard of were maining Low or Mid Tier characters - characters, that aren't viable or only viable with secondaries in the first place. And it's not only Meta Knight who wrecks them. Bowser has far more bad matchups than against Meta Knight. In fact, Meta Knight is one of his easier matchups in Top/High Tier. It's not Meta Knight who makes Bowser unviable, it's mainly Dedede.

Also, who says that Meta Knight is overcentralizing? In fact, without Meta Knight, Diddy wouldn't be High Tier and considered being one of the best characters in the game if NinjaLink wouldn't have beaten M2K with Diddy. That was when Diddy's metagame started to evolve a lot.

No, Martha and Jigglypuff are where it's at, if anything. But since people can think Fox and not be wrong, Melee. Isn't. Unbalanced.

I'm not playing Melee, but I know that Fox is top tier, but yes, Marth and Jigglypuff too. Also, I think Brawl is better balanced than Melee.

What about when the only certain even matchup is the character itself?

Nobody can even agree on someone that is 50/50 with MK, let alone advantaged against him.

At what point does the "No disadvantaged matchups" get bad enough to merit banning?

However, Meta Knight's advantages are always only small. 10-5 points advantage are not unbeatable, and Meta Knight definitely isn't outright destroying these characters he goes almost even with. That's all of High/Top Tier with the exception of one character.

I think Metaknight should be banned so we can start an "Unban Metaknight" poll thread.

lol

It's not an opinion that I can't do as well with Meta Knight as I could with others. It's pretty much an objective fact. Any argument that states that everyone could do better by using Meta Knight is wrong because it discounts me; that is the simple and objective point my post was making.

That is very true. Many people couldn't play as well with Meta Knight than they do with their actual characters. Of course, if they play Low Tier characters, playing Meta Knight will definitely benefit them anyway.

Also, I strongly disagree that changing the counterpick system to ban even more stages would do anything but make Meta Knight even better. I know that as Mr. Game & Watch I'd never, ever want to play Meta Knight on Final Destination, and really the only one of the uncontroversial starter stages I'd even dream of wanting to play him on is Battlefield, and even then frankly I have tons of better stages. If you want to see Meta Knight lose to counterpicks, try not banning Green Greens and look at what Mr. Game & Watch does to him there. I also like Norfair here; banning it is certainly not doing me any favors against Meta Knight. Everyone was talking about how Yoshi's Island (Melee) was a great anti-Meta Knight stage months ago, but then with almost no actual evidence decided "no it isn't" and banned it (in most regions at least). Really, what's the evidence that Meta Knight somehow massively benefits from counterpick stages? He's good on Rainbow Cruise and Luigi's Mansion, but otherwise, I'm just not seeing it.

<3

if metaknight got banned then nj would go from top tier to low tier

lol

What bad matchups? Name one.

You really have to try to misunderstand every single slightly wrong formulated sentence, eh?

 

[Turbo Ether]

I still stand by MK vs Diddy being close to even. M2K, best player in the world, as we know, got brought to game 5 last night by Ninjalink's Diddy. Very close set. Anti also took a game off M2K with his Diddy, and I didn't even know he had a Diddy. I'd bet money on Ninjalink and ADHD beating Dojo in the near future.

Also, MK vs Snake, the matchup is close enough that the better player wins. Same thing with MK vs Wario and MK vs Falco. I don't know much about MK vs Pikachu. Recent observations and discussions lead me to believe that Lucario does better against MK than these boards indicate. This game is not 'Play MK or lose'.

 

[Palpi]

I understand what you mean about diddy. But I think diddy would be where he is still. Diddy is freaking amazing

 

[Asdioh]

Here's a question because I just thought of it myself.

I wouldn't even be considering the MK ban debate right now if it weren't for this thread.

How many of you can say the same?

I think it's unnecessary.

 

[Steel]

No, if it wasn't an issue that a lot of people recognized this wouldn't have come up THREE times.

 

[Ravin]

Dont feed the Trolls. <3

 

[Kewkky]

Here's a question because I just thought of it myself.

I wouldn't even be considering the MK ban debate right now if it weren't for this thread.

How many of you can say the same?

I think it's unnecessary.

I can agree with you, I wouldn't be here (or anywhere relating banning MK) if the thread wasn't here. In fact the whole idea of banning MK is stupid to me, that's why I'm anti-ban. Since I see that there are people who still want to remove him from the roster with invalid arguments (like the Akuma ones), or say he's broken, whereas I don't think he is unbelievably hard IMO, I feel the need to help pull the rope in my direction.

 

[Maniclysane]

So, if MK breaks the CP system... Change the CP system so it can help against MK. And when proven that MK does NOT break the CP system, we change back. What's a few months of experimentation, if we'll ultimately show the world MK is NOT broken? Isn't that what the anti-ban community is trying to do? And if MK is actually broken and can handle his own in any stage against any character because of 'even' and 'advantage' matchups according to everyone (including MK AND pro-ban communities), then the MK mains wouldn't have a problem with this answer, now, would they? It would balance the game more, giving other characters the option of re-choosing their characters and stages if they learn their opponent just chose the best character in the game because their skill was not enough to defeat their opponent in the first round!

So we should change our entire system for one character?

 

[Ravin]

I had this huge post I was about to write up.

And I realized. It not worth even posting it anymore. People seem to meager on one fact when someone posts a paragraph and only write three words to a small sentence in defense. And when you get a paragraph of a good argument for defending MK, they dance around in circles on the same three "Minor" Facts.

 

[|RK|]

Here's a question because I just thought of it myself.

I wouldn't even be considering the MK ban debate right now if it weren't for this thread.

How many of you can say the same?

I think it's unnecessary.

^This. So much this.

 

[Kewkky]

So we should change our entire system for one character?

If you're either pro-ban or anti-ban, it's a much better solution than eliminating the one character who's driving the other characters' metagames around. Remember all those Melee vs Brawl debates? Well, if they are both TRULY that different, then wouldn't we need a new CP system to adjust Brawl to its new playstyle, rather than use a game whose physics and competitive quality are unarguably different? And who said anything about the ENTIRE system? Just change it whenever that one character gets chosen, unless it's a ditto. That way, all other characters end up unaffected by the change, and the MK haters end up with a passable resolution: a new CP system whenever an opponent decides on using MK.

I mean, come on, really... A character who has no bad stages or disadvantageous matchups according to the whole community... Why would they complain about a new CP system for them, if it's all the same to them?

 

[thrillagorilla]

If you're either pro-ban or anti-ban, it's a much better solution than eliminating the one character who's driving the other characters' metagames around. Remember all those Melee vs Brawl debates? Well, if they are both TRULY that different, then wouldn't we need a new CP system to adjust Brawl to its new playstyle, rather than use a game whose physics and competitive quality are unarguably different? And who said anything about the ENTIRE system? Just change it whenever that one character gets chosen, unless it's a ditto. That way, all other characters end up unaffected by the change, and the MK haters end up with a passable resolution: a new CP system whenever an opponent decides on using MK.

I mean, come on, really... A character who has no bad stages or disadvantageous matchups according to the whole community... Why would they complain about a new CP system for them, if it's all the same to them?

You are presenting a pro-ban argument, just so you know. If he is the only character that transcends the system, he breaks it and is ban-worthy. Having to change the entire system for one character doesn't make any sense at all. The bigger question is if other characters also break it as has been suggested by some people who have posted in this thread.

So we should change our entire system for one character?

No. It makes no sense to do this. If there are other characters that break it, though, then it needs to be reviewed at the very least. Sorry if I answered a rhetorical question.

 

[Domino64 (The JOKER)]

Well, if Meta-Knight is being banned for being horribly good...

...can we ban C. Falcon for being horribly bad?

I've gotten to the point where I won't let my friends use C. Falcon just for his terrible matchups.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Well, if Meta-Knight is being banned for being horribly good...

...can we ban C. Falcon for being horribly bad?

I've gotten to the point where I won't let my friends use C. Falcon just for his terrible matchups.

I dont know how you could make that joke any worse.

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

I don't think there's anything wrong with citing commonly accepted match ups if you don't main the character. For instance it's commonly accepted that falco>DDD, or DDD>Snake. A few people may feel differently, however in the majority of cases these are CPs.

Some matchups like the Wario, Diddy, and Snake Match up with Meta knight are arguable. If you want to call people out on these match ups in particular then that is your perogative, see what evidence they have to back up their opinion. If I were to say something about the Diddy matchup, you could call me on it, and I could cite Le Thien's essay about it. I don't play the matchup, but I have evidence that I believe in.

Basically I'm trying to say that people should be able to spout match up numbers as they wish, if you have a problem with a specific instance than say that to that person.

But that creates arguments in threads not about matchups. Also, there are many who can counter that essay there. Even pro players are split.

*sigh* I don't understand what's wrong with arguing about meta knights match ups in this thread. If it gets out of hand we can take it to another thread on that character board, but considering this thread is about banning meta knight, his match ups are a pretty big part of whether or not he should be banned. If the essay can be countered (and I read the counter to his essay), then that person SHOULD counter it and try and convince people otherwise. Someone could just as easily argue that I haven't faced skilled enough meta knights to understand the character match up that I was citing for my argument, which again they SHOULD DO. Citing Le Thien's match up experience is just as credible as citing my own. We should promote discussion, have points of our own, challenge other people's points!

It's not a big deal considering I personally feel that enough people agree on what MK means to the community, and most people just have a difference of opinion on whether or not that warrants a ban. It's not like I'm trying to present new data, it just bothers me that people seem to have such a skewed idea of how we should be debating this topic.

 

[Kewkky]

You are presenting a pro-ban argument, just so you know. If he is the only character that transcends the system, he breaks it and is ban-worthy. Having to change the entire system for one character doesn't make any sense at all. The bigger question is if other characters also break it as has been suggested by some people who have posted in this thread.

I'm trying to find equal ground in between both parties. Anti-ban don't want MK gone, pro-ban want MK gone... So a handicap wouldn't be such a bad idea, if you're trying to reach an understanding between them. As we all know, each person has their reasons as to why they are anti- or pro-, and let's face it: some of them are hardheaded and prefer to stand by their points than adopt someone else's. Common ground is a neutral way of seeing the problem, rather than pull for a side or the other.

Plus, it was just an idea I threw around to see what people would think. If they don't like it and they won't move a muscle, then I'll drop it. And if they DO adopt a similar idea, then I'll follow.

 

[ledhead]

If he isn't banned, competitive Brawl will remain as MK dittos, and we'll all get bored and go back to Melee.

 

[Melomaniacal]

If he isn't banned, competitive Brawl will remain as MK dittos, and we'll all get bored and go back to Melee.

inb4"good"

 

[thrillagorilla]

Its not so much that anti-ban doesn't want to see him gone. The primary standpoint seems to be that there is no reason for him to go. They don't believe that there are enough reasons, if any. Stating that he needs a handicap to be fair is the same thing as admitting that he has an unfair advantage on the rest of the cast. I understand your want for middle-ground, but in a situation like this there aren't really any places to go that would be truly fair to both parties. The only thing to do is find out which side is right.

 

[salaboB]

Its not so much that anti-ban doesn't want to see him gone. The primary standpoint seems to be that there is no reason for him to go. They don't believe that there are enough reasons, if any. Stating that he needs a handicap to be fair is the same thing as admitting that he has an unfair advantage on the rest of the cast. I understand your want for middle-ground, but in a situation like this there aren't really any places to go that would be truly fair to both parties. The only thing to do is find out which side is right.

Tests for both, then?

Needs more tournies without MK.

 

[Yanoss1313]

is anyone bored of dealing with this whole fiasco? i'm about a hairs thread from quitting brawl all together, seriously, this is getting pointless. for time being, i'll be off playing TvC...

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

If metaknight is banned, ban all the other top tier characters too, they're unfair for the low tiers.

On a different note, if SBR decides MK should be banned, how can they enforce it?

 

[Hype]

On a different note, if SBR decides MK should be banned, how can they enforce it?

They wouldn't try to enforce it. It would just be their recommended rules.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, TO's decide on everything and anything that goes into a tournament.
They can't personally find your organized tournament and have the police arrest all of you.

 

[Ismael]

is anyone bored of dealing with this whole fiasco? i'm about a hairs thread from quitting brawl all together, seriously, this is getting pointless. for time being, i'll be off playing TvC...

This is what MK is doing to people.

Am I the only one that's tired of seeing the finals of EVERY single tournament having MK. How 'bout a little variety...

 

[thrillagorilla]

Yeah, TO's decide on everything and anything that goes into a tournament.
They can't personally find your organized tournament and have the police arrest all of you.

If they could I would give up on smash now. I don't like the idea of being hunted down and arrested for not following a recommended set of rules for a video game by an organization that didn't even create the game in the first place... Wow. I just realized how ridiculous that would actually be.

 

[Deathcarter]

is anyone bored of dealing with this whole fiasco? i'm about a hairs thread from quitting brawl all together, seriously, this is getting pointless. for time being, i'll be off playing TvC...

Two things:

1. The whole issue is only incredibly stupid on Smashboards. If you go to tournamets, then you will realize the people who are there don't act even remotely as stupid in person as people online do.

2. If a thread on the widely regarded most stupid segment of the competitive Smash community, the Tactical/General Brawl discussions, can enrage you enough to dissuade you from going to tourneys and playing the game in general, then the game you play is perhaps more to blame for your dissatisfaction than the earlier mentioned small part of its community. Maybe you actually SHOULD leave Brawl and get into Tatsunoko v. Capcom.

Note that I am NOT trying to sound elitist in anyway, shape, or form. If the game and its community stress you out, then moving past it will probably be the best course of action. Just do the thing that you think leads to less posts like that. Sorry for that everyone, but I just had to say something.

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

They wouldn't try to enforce it. It would just be their recommended rules.

So isn't this entire argument here rather pointless? Unless we can get a good number of tournament organizers to come together. The word "ban" has lost its meaning in this context.

 

[salaboB]

So isn't this entire argument here rather pointless? Unless we can get a good number of tournament organizers to come together. The word "ban" has lost its meaning in this context.

A decent number of TOs consider the guidelines.

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

A decent number of TOs consider the guidelines.

Most people are really opinionated about MK. TOs are people, too.

 

[ANTi_]

Tournament Winners From The Week Of 4.25 So Far

1. M2K - MK
1.Fatal - Snake
1.Atomsk - DDD/Wario

doesn't seem so bad right now, lets see how this develops.

 

[Atomsk_92]

LOL MK didn't even get 2nd place at the tourny i won. ADHD was to preoccupied in ****** them XD