Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[|RK|]

Are you saying that people are not using MK cause of the current aggro on him?

Ah, but that means they aren't concerned with tier lists and matchups, they just like him as a character. And I know one such person...

 

[Darxmarth23]

Should we let Genesis be a decider?

 

[Red Arremer]

Should we let Genesis be a decider?

Genesis hardly will look different from APEX. It will have even more MK Slayers (Reflex, Fiction, DEHF), so... yea.

 

[Chileno4Live]

I hardly can't wait for Genesis, it must be a very, very sweet tourney. Maybe it'll be as epic as that match with M2K VS Ally, omg, the DI....

 

[P. O. F.]

brawl is a defensive oriented game in general where you ALWAYS have to adapt to your oppponent, not just if they're meta knight, I don't see your point here.

Well put and in fact, very true. Basically camping or being defensive in Brawl is basically all about waiting for your opponent to make the wrong move or making that spot dodge or roll you expect them to make. You can do that with mk but due to his speed and his amount of options it makes it a good 4X harder to do this.

If you want to be even vs. MK so ba,d use Bowser.

OR Snake.

Or several other characters.

Can someone please link me to this stupid infinite? Last I checked A MK should not be getting grabbed by Bowser and Bowser has a whole load of lag and MK does not. LOL Bowser VS MK.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Well put and in fact, very true. Basically camping or being defensive in Brawl is basically all about waiting for your opponent to make the wrong move or making that spot dodge or roll you expect them to make. You can do that with mk but due to his speed and his amount of options it makes it a good 4X harder to do this.



Can someone please link me to this stupid infinite? Last I checked A MK should not be getting grabbed by Bowser and Bowser has a whole load of lag and MK does not. LOL Bowser VS MK.

Ah, ignorance. Such a sweet and pure innocence.

Check the Bowser boards, that should be the obvious course of action.

 

[Red Arremer]

Can someone please link me to this stupid infinite? Last I checked A MK should not be getting grabbed by Bowser and Bowser has a whole load of lag and MK does not. LOL Bowser VS MK.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233550

Also, Bowser always has been considered being 60:40 in Meta Knight's favour at worst (until now, at least).
"Load of lag" is btw. wrong, but I'm not gonna talk any further... It'll be hard to break that habit.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

most people are like lol bowser...but they dont know.....

 

[swordgard]

Well, it's true, unfortunately community pressure is making it more difficult to decide what is actually banworthy then it should.

If you want an illustration, let me ask you this, how many people plank?




Lol

Public service announcement from Spadefox: Austria is NOT Australia.

My bad for that, i fail at reading. I still maintain this, how would someone argue on the MK vs bowser matchup if you dont go to big tourneys with great MKs?


Also, lol @ inescapable based on a grab based on predictions and math(dont tell me you can count for each input 8 frames in your head)

 

[Wild ARMs]

Nay, I say. Because then, who else would be the next, "should ____ be banned from tournaments?"
If MK was banned, every MK mainer would go straight to Snake.
(I think... Isn't Snake next one down on the tier list?)

 

[salaboB]

Nay, I say. Because then, who else would be the next, "should ____ be banned from tournaments?"
If MK was banned, every MK mainer would go straight to Snake.
(I think... Isn't Snake next one down on the tier list?)

Snake and MK play very, very differently.

They'd move to the next best character they also liked the style for.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Nay, I say. Because then, who else would be the next, "should ____ be banned from tournaments?"
If MK was banned, every MK mainer would go straight to Snake.
(I think... Isn't Snake next one down on the tier list?)

You obviously don't understand the problem (or lack thereof, if you ask me).

 

[Yuna]

He used the word, I was quoting him lol

Way to read only what you want there. I was quoting someone else. They were the one to use the word.

Yes, but his up b kills up much easier. Plus, I'm pretty sure Delfino is M2k's favorite counter-pick. Doesn't one of the levels of that stage have one of the lowest ceilings? Actually, that stage has a low ceiling in general.

Against certain characters who love to KO upwards and who live forever (read: Snake), MK doesn't really like low ceilings for obvious reasons.

Mind posting the stages, the actual stages, he does not do good on? because as far as I know the only 2 stages with a really low ceiling is Halberg and Brinstar (not counting Cornaria), and he does preform better then most on those stages.

I said he "wasn't amazing" on all stages, not that there are stages where he "does not do good" on. People need to start taking my words at face value.

Metaknight's momentum cancelling is pretty **** good. He lives for longer than many other characters of similar weight do. Also, he can gimp the cast better than anyone else. In fact, he is the only character that can consistently gimp safely and reliably.

I'm not pro/con ban, but I rarely see these point brought up. I mean, we know how good Meta is, so that shouldn't really be the argument, right?

People brought that up all the time. Then they realized that they were unable to prove him "too good", so they tried to prove other things entirely, like how we should maximize variety and stuff instead.

Because despite having all of that and more, MK doesn't destroy the cast to such a degree you must play MK or lose.

Im very skeptical about bowser being an MK counter, to say the least

60:40 =/= counter.

I'm saying the match-up is actually 60:40, I'm still on the fence on that one. But a 60:40 is not a counter. Spadefox was merely saying that Bowser was MK's hardest match-up, not that he was an MK-counter.

I love how people go to the infinite as a viable option. IDK about other coasts but the East coast bans Infinites on characters, and since that was the only thing really making it a viable match its not logical to say that you need to use him to have a standard chance to beat MK.

DDD's CG on Bowser is not an infinite since he has to actually walk forward during it. Also, not all of the east coast bans infinites, that's a lie. Also, the regions which do are scrubby and need to learn how to play Competitively.

ZSS infinite is the most ridiculous looking infinite ever.

Brawl is the ridiculous fighting game ever (at least in the Smash series)!

Actually, it'll make you learn multiple different games, because latency is inconsistent (yes, latency, there are a lot of matches that are lagless, but even in green you'll get at least a few frames between when you provide an input and the game registers it, and that's latency).

However, they'll all be far more offensive then Brawl.

But the main point is that you'll be playing one bazillion different games which are not Competitive off-line tournament Brawl.

Also, whether Brawl is more offensive or not online depends on what characters are being played. Certain characters can afford to be more unsafe while others can't afford to be as unsafe.

You wish! I'm sexier then you'll ever be!

No claiming to be sexy in my presence (if you're male) unless you intend to prove it using photographic (or video) evidence!

In a way it does appear "too good" Some infinite's, due to the high amount of people that play that character, can shutdown another character completely. D3 to Bowser, D3 to Luigi (only using D3 because its the most common case) are good example, and although that D3 to bowser is a bad match up w/o the infinite, D3 to Luigi isn't as bad without it, it actually becomes a viable match up. Just pure examples, not bashing the fact that its broken because it isn't broken in a realistic look, it just takes little skill to pull off with an extremely high reward.

1) Rendering one or a small number of characters unviable =/= Too good. It is simply rendering one or a small number of characters unviable. Too bad, live with your horrible character choice(s).
2) "It takes little skill" =/= matters

Lol apex Imo.
Helped me decide which side to be on.

Apex went exactly as I thought it would. Now worship me, you worthless peon!

Just to make sure: You're on the Anti-ban side now, right? Or do I have to smite you again?

I'm kind of understanding where non meta banners are coming from now but I still strongly believe that AT THIS CURRENT point in the meta game, he should be banned.

You can beat the Western All Stars in a Basketball game
Sagat in SF IV with Ryu or Ken
Mileena in MK II
Oddjob in Goldeneye 64
Arsenal in Fifa
Pikachu in Smash 64
Fox in Melee

What the hell is this jibberish supposed to mean?

and so much more without having to adjust strategies, approaches, and just your overall game to beat these opponents where as in Brawl against Meta Knight, you can't even dare dream to be offensive and both winning sets at Apex proved this to be true. Lain had to camp M2K by waiting for the grab and using his down B to keep him at bay and Ally waited for M2K to misspace an aerial to get that spike on Halberd.

Oh how horrible! You can't play aggresively against MK! You have to play a specific way! A boring way! Quickly, ban him!

You LITERALLY need to be a top 5-8 character in Brawl to successfully beat a top level or high level Meta Knight.

No you don't. It's just that the characters with the best chances of beating MK are in that general area of the tier list.

It's stupid. Look at the previous post that I made on here and read the post by Thumbswayup. All it takes for a basic meta knight to beat a high level player who DOES NOT USE snake, DDD, or another top five character is a simple dair or ******** gimp.

What the hell are you talking about? How is Meta Knight's Dair a gimp/KO/spike/whatever? "A simple dair"? Oh, woe is me! Meta Knight's Dair!

Good players do not get gimped. It's not just Snake and DDD who can avoid getting gimped by MK and beat him. Stop lying.

Thats it. A Toon Link, Link, Mario Zelda, Olimar, etc could absolutely be ****** a meta knight but if they go off stage...they lose a stock.

Because they have bad recoveries that are easily gimpable. And? AFAIK, Zelda, Olimar and Toon Link have pretty OK match-ups against MK, 60:40, quite winnable.

At least with Fox's shine in Melee you could DI away from it and if they miss throw out an attack and gimp them back.

You could "DI away from the shine"? What the heck does this even mean? Smash DI away when getting shined to Die even Harder? Avoid the shine by DI:ing away from Fox (and, thus, the stage)? And what kind of Foxes are you playing? Good Foxes shine and immediately jump-cancel into an aerial. And they also time their gimping, making it quite hard to "gimp back".

Who the hell can gimp an edgeguarding Fox, anyway (sucky Foxes don't count)? You can hit them back sometimes, but that's not automatically gimping because good Foxes will also know how to tech on the edge.

You can't gimp a MK due to his 5-6 jumps, his upB, side B, and his neu B which all help him recover!

This is why we should ban him? Because he cannot be gimped? Also, MK is light and strong spikes will still kill him.

Yes, he has even matchups...thats true but what if I don't feel like being a top tier *****?

Then live with your horrible character choice.

What if I don't want to use the best two characters in the game?

There are, like, 9 characters who have 50:50 to 40:60 against MK. Those are absolutely reasonable match-ups. Also, Competitive fighting games is not about being able to play as your favorite character no matter what.

I shouldn't have to do that.

No. But you don't have to. You'll just have lower odds of winning tournaments if you choose someone with a horrible match-up against MK. But you can still choose them. There are a good 9 characters you can choose who stand a reasonable chance of beating MK. You can choose one of those.

Sheik had even better match-ups than MK in Melee (except the one disadvantageous one, a 40:60). Overall, she rendered many more character unviable than MK and it was virtually impossible to win against her as a large portion of the cast. You couldn't play those characters against her if you wanted to win.

Ban?

Once again, a Melee Falcon can beat a Melee Fox or a Melee DK (Bum) can beat a Melee Fox (M2K) I'm not saying he is not beatable....he is. But hes good on every stage and imbalances this game at this point in time.

That's because Falcon vs. Fox and DK vs. Fox are quasi-even match-ups. A better example would be NTSC Sheik vs. NTSC Bowser. Or NTSC Sheik vs. most floaties mid or lower. Say hello to Downthrow and Unviability.

 

[Pez55]

Nay, I say. Because then, who else would be the next, "should ____ be banned from tournaments?"
If MK was banned, every MK mainer would go straight to Snake.
(I think... Isn't Snake next one down on the tier list?)

You can't say that they would go to Snake just because he is the next one down on the tier list

For all you know, some could go to Captain Falcon or Ganandorf

 

[Yuna]

That bolded statement is completely true, but lets apply it to MK since it is after all the MK thread. Your completely right that counter picks happen, and it should happen, but if you have a character that on the most part eliminates the fact that you need to counter pick between matches, isn't that enough to describe MK?

Yes, and? Having no need to counterpick =/= bannable.

...just reminds me of the last big thread's "Bowser, Yoshi, ZSS, DK and Diddy are all MK counters!" and one by one they didn't end up doing anything particularily special against him.

Losing our memory, are we? People were saying they went even with MK, not that they were counters. And Diddy and Bowser are pretty much 50:50 with him at the moment, so, yeah.

During that last big thread, they all were proposed as counters with "proof" because of techniques found that would beat MK.

They all were overhyped.

All I'm saying is that if Bowser is really such a counter for MK, someone good should pick him up and massacre MK's at tournaments with him - the Bowser will have both matchup unfamiliarity AND a 60:40 match on his side, right? So wait for it to be demonstrated before joining the crowd of people who predict the sky is falling while it's still firmly glued in place.

Single random people saying stuff =/= Overhyping by the community.

I don't believe MK overcentralizes the metagame. I believe him being unbanned is poor for the overall health of the competitive community.

My first two points could be reworded to reflect that: That with the currently known techs for him he simply doesn't overcentralize the game so a majority of people will never be convinced through discussion, and that even if banning him would be better for the community, because the overcentralization isn't true that same majority will never care.

We do ban characters to "improve the overall health of the Competitive community". Because then we'd ban more than just MK. Because, really, where do we draw this arbitrary line of at which point something will improve the overall health of the Competitive community enough by being banned?

2- You dont know by now that upair to upair IS a natural combo. We saw it happen many time at APEX on the live stream, on way smaller characters than bowser. Seriously.[/qulote]
It is not a natural combo. Especially not with decay.

4- The only hit that will send flying enough not to punish is the first of fortress, and it lacks range.

You use it as a countermove when they are close enough to get hit by it.

6- Hey, i could go quote him on saying Ftilt has alot of priority and kills.

It does?

Oh and btw, any of mks move but nado WILL go through ftilt or almost, priority doesnt matter with MK.

You use it as a counter to MK's moves, not as a random spam move (as it lags quite a bit)! I don't even play Bowser and I know this stuff.

Then again, you apparently learned your stuff off Wi-Fi, so who knows.

Isn't Metaknight banned in your country?

No.

There was a BS poll about banning him in Italy, though. But he wasn't banned there either.

You can't say that they would go to Snake just because he is the next one down on the tier list

For all you know, some could go to Captain Falcon or Ganandorf

Why in the world would they go to CF and who the hell is Ganandorf? They'd flock to the new Best Character, whoever that would be.

 

[Wild ARMs]

@Pez: Well, some people pick MK simply because he's the best charcter. If he's banned, they would, in theory, go to the next best charcter. Snake is next in line, so if MK was banned, people would start wanting him banned from tournaments.

 

[CRASHiC]

@Pez: Well, some people pick MK simply because he's the best charcter. If he's banned, they would, in theory, go to the next best charcter. Snake is next in line, so if MK was banned, people would start wanting him banned from tournaments.

They would go Marth.
Marth is not labeled second because of Metaknight.

 

[Wild ARMs]

Marth? That's interesting. I can't imagine anyone wanting him banned. I use him as a secondary, so I know I wouldn't.

 

[gallax]

some people will flock to snake. i will give you that. but learning snake and using snake properly takes a lot of time to learn and master. people dont just pick up snake and are instantly successful.

 

[Kamikaze*]

some people will flock to snake. i will give you that. but learning snake and using snake properly takes a lot of time to learn and master. people dont just pick up snake and are instantly successful.

Same with MK

 

[gallax]

very true. which is one reason i am anit-ban.

 

[adumbrodeus]

My bad for that, i fail at reading. I still maintain this, how would someone argue on the MK vs bowser matchup if you dont go to big tourneys with great MKs?

I guess this is the sort of disconnect between "theorycrafters" and "empiracists" in smash, but the fact is while empirical knowledge does help, theoretical knowledge (like frame data) and sufficent intelligence can replace them.

You see, empirical knowledge always has the problem of induction to contend with, so we can never be sure that we're not missing something that simply hasn't come up.

Theory technically has that issue, but since it's not limited to first-hand expirience you can theorize possibilities and test them using the technical details of the game.

Ultimately, I'd take the word of a genius who knows all the technical details of the game over M2K's.

Also, lol @ inescapable based on a grab based on predictions and math(dont tell me you can count for each input 8 frames in your head)

Frame data tells us what is actually humanly possible, with sufficent practice people CAN be frame perfect. How else could people do things like the JC shine infinite at all (keeping it up indefinately is not humanly possible, but the fact that it can be done at all illustrates my point)? What about frame-perfect wavedashing (hold the screw attack and wavedash next to a character to check if you're frame perfect, it hits on frame 1 of the jump)?


There's a LOT people can do with enough practice, including percision down to 1/60 of a second.

But the main point is that you'll be playing one bazillion different games which are not Competitive off-line tournament Brawl.

Also, whether Brawl is more offensive or not online depends on what characters are being played. Certain characters can afford to be more unsafe while others can't afford to be as unsafe.

Pretty much.

But no, it will ALWAYS be more offensive, period. How much depends on the level of latency.

The reason is because latency causes moves to be safer, take for example Marth's foreward smash. In offline brawl, it has 32 net frames of lag on shield (untippered). At the top of the metagame, we have 7 frames to react, and the average brawl player requires about 10 frames, we'll use the average for this example because it's online. 22 frames, plenty of tiny to use a start-up heavy attack, and even walk foreward, but what about with latency? What if we have 22 frames of latency? Suddenly you'd have to react exactly when the shield was hit in order to punish.

What about 25? Net frame advantage to Marth, now the move is effectively unpunishable.


And that's only if you predict the move, after 3 frames, you have to predict the foreward smash at the top of the metagame because it takes 10 frames to come out.



That's what it comes down to, the more lag, the more moves become safe and it becomes a lot harder to react to and defend against moves.

That makes the game more offensive, because latency gives the attacker an advantage, the greater the latency, the more the advantage.

No claiming to be sexy in my presence (if you're male) unless you intend to prove it using photographic (or video) evidence!

Sorry Yuna, you'll have to drop by the states and play me to see my sexiness.

Marth? That's interesting. I can't imagine anyone wanting him banned. I use him as a secondary, so I know I wouldn't.

He plays a lot like MK except more defensive instead of offensive, but MK totally outclasses him.

If MK were gone he'd be an amazing character, but MK totally negates his influence on the metagame.

 

[salaboB]

Nay, I say. Because then, who else would be the next, "should ____ be banned from tournaments?"
If MK was banned, every MK mainer would go straight to Snake.
(I think... Isn't Snake next one down on the tier list?)

Nobody would take calls to ban Snake seriously unless someone found a new unbeatable tech for him - in which case he'd jump to being better than MK and face bans whether MK was banned or not.

Slippery slope has been shot down soooo many times.

 

[Pez55]

Why in the world would they go to CF and who the hell is Ganandorf? They'd flock to the new Best Character, whoever that would be.

I meant if they, by some odd chance used those characters, they might use them as a main.

But otherwise they would go to Snake

 

[salaboB]

I meant if they, by some odd chance used those characters, they might use them as a main.

But otherwise they would go to Snake

Or Marth, or DDD, or...yeah.

There's quite a few choices for solid mains if MK isn't available.

 

[Yuna]

Or Marth, or DDD, or...yeah.

There's quite a few choices for solid mains if MK isn't available.

There's quite a few choices for solid mains even with MK available. But you argue that since people like to flock to the easiest path to victory, they flock to MK, thus he must be banned. Logically, if MK is banned, there will be a new Easiest Path to Victory. Whoever that is, people will logically flock to.

Stuff.

Depends on what character is being used. If it's a projectile camper, they'll probably be campier since it's harder to punish. Either way, it's still a different game(s).

Sorry Yuna, you'll have to drop by the states and play me to see my sexiness.

I will sometime after November 2009. Will you promise me a welcome grope?

 

[Pez55]

And the tiers would most likely change due to MK being banned...or Snake could just be at the top.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Or Marth, or DDD, or...yeah.

There's quite a few choices for solid mains if MK isn't available.

Are you agreeing that these characters are tourney viable (aka a solid choice for a main) or are you saying that they would be if Metaknight wasn't around? If you are saying they aren't right now because of Metaknight, I need to ask what makes them not solid. Marth is the only one really adversely effected by Metaknight and is still considered Tournament viable. I fail to see what Metaknight in particular has to do with it.

 

[yummynbeefy]

There's quite a few choices for solid mains even with MK available. But you argue that since people like to flock to the easiest path to victory, they flock to MK, thus he must be banned. Logically, if MK is banned, there will be a new Easiest Path to Victory. Whoever that is, people will logically flock to.

um no very few characters are as easy and quick to pick up and learn than metaknight look at melee there was no universal character that everyone complained about do you know why no one cared if marth or fox got banned? because marth and fox had his neutral and bad matchups and bad stages also because of the extra hitstun and the combos that melee had punishing 1 mistake in melee is like punishing 5 mistakes in brawl

 

[adumbrodeus]

Depends on what character is being used. If it's a projectile camper, they'll probably be campier since it's harder to punish. Either way, it's still a different game(s).

I think we're having a little dissonance in the way we use terms here.

By "more offensive" I mean that previously unviable offensive strategies suddenly become viable.

Projectile camping was always viable and becomes more powerful, but the core strategy remains viable, with one caveat (and here's where it again becomes more offensive) you don't want your opponent to approach, you want to stop right before your opponent actually approaches and approach yourself.

I will sometime after November 2009. Will you promise me a welcome grope?

Sorry, I don't do gropes.

I'm most active during breaks though, so I can promise I'll be around if it's in November, I've got a ton of school obligations.

 

[P. O. F.]

I've played good Bowsers (ninjalinks for one) and hes still a horrible character.

Tornado eats him alive. It's really that simple. Avoid neu b and tornado and he gets *****.

 

[brinboy789]

I've played good Bowsers (ninjalinks for one) and hes still a horrible character.

Tornado eats him alive. It's really that simple. Avoid neu b and tornado and he gets *****.

OOS Whirling Fortress > nado

 

[Pez55]

I've played good Bowsers (ninjalinks for one) and hes still a horrible character.

Tornado eats him alive. It's really that simple. Avoid neu b and tornado and he gets *****.

He's not a horrible character just because MK has a great matchup against him.

Characters have good and bad matchups (Except for Meta Knight)

 

[Darxmarth23]

Mk has a certain dominance....

 

[salaboB]

There's quite a few choices for solid mains even with MK available. But you argue that since people like to flock to the easiest path to victory, they flock to MK, thus he must be banned. Logically, if MK is banned, there will be a new Easiest Path to Victory. Whoever that is, people will logically flock to.

I haven't argued that for a long time.

To respond anyway, the new "Easiest Path to Victory" may not be as clear cut a choice as MK currently is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it won't be so easily determined. Was it so obvious whether you should main Marth, Fox, or Sheik in Melee? (I know Marth won the most tournaments, but is that due to him being so obviously the best choice or simply the most popular among the best players?)

 

[|RK|]

^How on Earth did you become a Smash Debater? Your posts hold no real structure and your arguments are obviously baseless conjecture via bias.

 

[Pez55]

Just wait for the other character strategies to catch up...

EDIT: @RK Joker being a smash debater doesn't mean that much,it's really just a cool title

 

[salaboB]

^How on Earth did you become a Smash Debater? Your posts hold no real structure and your arguments are obviously baseless conjecture via bias.

This is true of most of the Smash Debaters who I've seen participating in the MK ban discussion threads. While there are obviously exceptions (A couple I do really respect) it seems to be more standard that they can't handle a debate in a forum like these threads present.

 

[thrillagorilla]

um no very few characters are as easy and quick to pick up and learn than metaknight look at melee there was no universal character that everyone complained about do you know why no one cared if marth or fox got banned? because marth and fox had his neutral and bad matchups and bad stages also because of the extra hitstun and the combos that melee had punishing 1 mistake in melee is like punishing 5 mistakes in brawl

1. What does "easy to pick up" have to do with tournament viability? Is Snake non-viable now?

2. Why does having no bad match-ups matter, especially when even ones exist? Also, what constitutes to a bad stage? And of course more importantly, why would not having them constitute a ban? I don't mind if you are stating opinions you hold, but please indicate that they are if they are. If not, I will need you to answer those questions before continuing.

3. This isn't Melee, so there isn't the extra hit-stun. So? I fail to see the point here. Brawl is a different type of game, so if you go into it with the mindset of Melee, of course its gonna look bad to you because it isn't what you blatantly assumed it was going to be. Either go back to melee (which is good) or learn how to play brawl (which is also good, just in a different way). I apologize if this isn't what you were getting at by bringing Melee up, but I get tired of seeing it referenced like a broken record in the Brawl forums.

4. I think you completely missed Yuna's point. I'll put it in different terms for you. Tier ****** (if they indeed exist) will always be tier ******. If the only reason they are playing Metaknight is because he is the best, then they will flock to the next best character, whoever that turns out to be regardless of how difficult it may end up being to determine. It also holds nothing to the argument at hand, because it is more popularity based than not. If there is more than one viable character, then there is no real reason other than popularity for them to exhibit this behavior.

 

[|RK|]

@salaboB:Yeah it's truly a shame. I remember when I used to think that Smash Directors were all really smart. Disproven. I figured at least Smash Debaters, but some of them were here before the Proving Grounds.