Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[CRASHiC]

Abusing invinc frames as MK? Since when did that overcentralize and dominate the metagame?

No, that's not a ban metaknight statement, that was separation of planking from ledge camping.

 

[Master Raven]

M2K and Inui went mostly double MK at WHOBO and DSF and Tyrant sometimes went double MK. I'm not saying double MK is a monstrous team but I don't know how in the case of MK being banned that it'd be different in teams.

Although it certainly doesn't end the debate, don't underestimate the impact apex will have. It was HUGE that m2k lost. How can anyone argue metaknight is ban worthy if the VERY BEST player can't win with him? Don't throw out garbage like m2k had a bad day, results are results.

I was a fence walker until apex, but now I am sold; metaknight is not ban worthy. The meta game is going to have to abruptly and dramatically change for metaknight to be banned.

SBR will vote no ban.

lol I'm not underestimating the impact, and I wouldn't think he had a bad day. If anything Ally is beginning to get better at adapting to his style like I said earlier.

 

[salaboB]

M2K and Inui went mostly double MK at WHOBO and DSF and Tyrant sometimes went double MK. I'm not saying double MK is a monstrous team but I don't know how in the case of MK being banned that it'd be different in teams.

Because the attributes that make MK deadly in 1v1 don't carry over as strongly to 2v2, so MK doesn't cause the same problems there.

In other words, it's a different game type and you don't carry bans from one game type to another. He'd need to be banned separately for 2v2 if he were going to be.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

lol I'm not underestimating the impact, and I wouldn't think he had a bad day. If anything Ally is beginning to get better at adapting to his style like I said earlier.

You didn't say it, but I have already seen that argument thrown out. "You can't use a match as evidence because people have bad days/sick/johns etc."

It is bull s***. Tournament results are as concrete as it gets. What would people rather do, reify evidence like matchups (which are totally biased)?

 

[Aurablade262]

It seems unlikley that nintendo would make a single best character. I mained MK for a long time and i'll tell you from expeirience he is definately NOT unbeatable. I had my fair share of beatings when i used MK, mostly by DDD and Marth. There are ways to counter all of his moves, and anyone who uber spams his specials is playing like a noob anyways, and can't compete with tournament players. I say no to the ban.

 

[Eagleye893]

It seems unlikley that nintendo would make a single best character. I mained MK for a long time and i'll tell you from expeirience he is definately NOT unbeatable. I had my fair share of beatings when i used MK, mostly by DDD and Marth. There are ways to counter all of his moves, and anyone who uber spams his specials is playing like a noob anyways, and can't compete with tournament players. I say no to the ban.

yes... truly anyone can beat MK with the right knowledge, even lower tier characters. he shouldn't be banned or even thought of being banned, because people should learn to counter MK's strategies and playstyle rather than whine about not being able to beat him.

 

[salaboB]

It seems unlikley that nintendo would make a single best character.

Unfortunately, it's happened.

There's not even a debate on this, there is a single best character in Brawl.

 

[Eagleye893]

There's not even a debate on this, there is a single best character in Brawl.

And that is Captain Falcon

Falcon PAWNCH!!!

PS: i was going for complete sarcasm... i wanted to fit ness in, but he can be beat. but still, falcon is pretty sweet.

 

[Aurablade262]

Unfortunately, it's happened.

There's not even a debate on this, there is a single best character in Brawl.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that, an important aspect of brawl tactics is the reach of your character's attacks. MK's attacks are fast, but stay close to his body. There are plenty of characters who can out range him.

 

[Aurablade262]

And that is Captain Falcon

Falcon PAWNCH!!!

Falcon IS pretty epic I have to admit lol.

 

[Jski]

A lot of the time when ppl take about needing skill to beat metaknight it makes it sound like that the metaknight them self are unskilled. Just simply luring how to deal with metaknight is not going to win you the game its a lot like the idea of being chase by the "red queen" where one does something and the other adapted to it etc... I think for the over all good of the non smash + game the use of metaknight needs to start to be looked down on (this is true for the most part already) to get more character to be worked on if there game can be scaled up.

 

[salaboB]

You didn't say it, but I have already seen that argument thrown out. "You can't use a match as evidence because people have bad days/sick/johns etc."

It is bull s***. Tournament results are as concrete as it gets. What would people rather do, reify evidence like matchups (which are totally biased)?

You can't use one match to determine a pattern.

You need to look at past history. And past history says that so far, this one match has been an exception rather than the rule. If M2K continues to lose, then it will have more meaning. But that meaning isn't necessarily "MK isn't broken." If it's mostly to just Ally, it could be "Ally has gotten better than M2K."

 

[Vulpes vulpes]

I thought this thread was over after apex lol.

It should be but people think there is some conspiracy that m2k sandbagged so metaknight wouldnt get banned.

 

[L666]

You can't use one match to determine a pattern.

Multiply that by four.

You need to look at past history. And past history says that so far, this one match has been an exception rather than the rule. If M2K continues to lose, then it will have more meaning. But that meaning isn't necessarily "MK isn't broken." If it's mostly to just Ally, it could be "Ally has gotten better than M2K."

Past history is just that––past history.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

You can't use one match to determine a pattern.

You need to look at past history. And past history says that so far, this one match has been an exception rather than the rule. If M2K continues to lose, then it will have more meaning. But that meaning isn't necessarily "MK isn't broken." If it's mostly to just Ally, it could be "Ally has gotten better than M2K."

It is not one match. Plenty of metaknights lose. All the time. Dojo got like 13th or something at Apex.

There is no 'rule'. What is the rule? Metaknight always wins? What about ninjalink? What about all the tournaments in ankoku's thread?

Apex matters more because it was M2k losing. M2k is considered as good as it gets with metaknight, so if he loses it basically disproves metaknight is broken.

As of right now, yes I think the debate is closed. If things change, they change. If metaknight wasn't considered ban worthy before, why would he be now? There is nothing new regarding pro-ban. At very least pro-ban has no choice but to hold off the decision.

 

[ksizl4life]

as ally said already, **** YOU METAKNIGHT BANNERS! YOU GUYS SUCK!!

but seriously, this thread should be closed rofl. why would you wana ban such a cute character? and the only mks placing good are the people that worked hard to get there. im ranked 5th in nj a hell of an annoyingly strong state and i lose to atomsks ddd all the time as well as other gay chars like marth and wario. dont ban mk. BAN DIDDY KONG OR ADHD! EITHER ONE WORKS. (im 0-8 with the guy =( )

 

[Aurablade262]

A lot of the time when ppl take about needing skill to beat metaknight it makes it sound like that the metaknight them self are unskilled. Just simply luring how to deal with metaknight is not going to win you the game its a lot like the idea of being chase by the "red queen" where one does something and the other adapted to it etc... I think for the over all good of the non smash + game the use of metaknight needs to start to be looked down on (this is true for the most part already) to get more character to be worked on if there game can be scaled up.

I think players should be able to take the initiative to try other characters and discover their secrets, rather than be forced to by a ban. For instance, (some of you may already know this) Lucario's tilt A, not the kick but the one he does when at walking speed; can be altered to hit higher or lower to change how they are sent flying, by moving the control stick slightly up diagonally or down diagonally. I'm sure all the charecters have hidden quirks like this, and the discovery of them would help balance the meta game.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It is not one match. Plenty of metaknights lose. All the time. Dojo got like 13th or something at Apex.

There is no 'rule'. What is the rule? Metaknight always wins? What about ninjalink? What about all the tournaments in ankoku's thread?

Apex matters more because it was M2k losing. M2k is considered as good as it gets with metaknight, so if he loses it basically disproves metaknight is broken.

As of right now, yes I think the debate is closed. If things change, they change. If metaknight wasn't considered ban worthy before, why would he be now? There is nothing new regarding pro-ban. At very least pro-ban has no choice but to hold off the decision.

your using lone examples again why don't you pull out all of the times that dojo won vs all the times he lost. This tournament was filled with up sets yes but it is the only 1 so far.

Apex doesn't matter more because M2K isn't as good as it gets. I believe spammers MK was actually more what a metaknight should do M2K is just extremely good but if an MK is played at its highest level it will be more like spammers and how dojos was vs dsf, campy and unapproachable. 1 loss does not disprove a character being broken, yes you just said its not only once but in your second paragraph you said is m2k loses it disproves him being broken which has only happened 1 time.

There is no reason to stop just because m2k lost the anti-ban are just clinging to strings like they did when mango came in here trolling and they kept saying "yah hes right!", "It makes so much sense".

edit: this tournament only had 2 of the top MK's there today and they both did bad, If DSF spammer, tyrant and possibly lee if he was forced to use mk again they could have all been up there in the top 10.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Despite Ally beating M2k at Apex as Snake, MK still has no bad matchups and wins about 95% outta tournies that allow him in. If only he had AT LEAST one bad matchup, and the closest you can get to being even with him without being MK himself is Snake, ROB, DK, Yoshi, and a Naner-experienced Diddy at FD. That's the only thing i could really think of for these past months.

 

[brinboy789]

your using lone examples again why don't you pull out all of the times that dojo won vs all the times he lost. This tournament was filled with up sets yes but it is the only 1 so far.

Apex doesn't matter more because M2K isn't as good as it gets. I believe spammers MK was actually more what a metaknight should do M2K is just extremely good but if an MK is played at its highest level it will be more like spammers and how dojos was vs dsf, campy and unapproachable. 1 loss does not disprove a character being broken, yes you just said its not only once but in your second paragraph you said is m2k loses it disproves him being broken which has only happened 1 time.

There is no reason to stop just because m2k lost the anti-ban are just clinging to strings like they did when mango came in here trolling and they kept saying "yah hes right!", "It makes so much sense".

edit: this tournament only had 2 of the top MK's there today and they both did bad, If DSF spammer, tyrant and possibly lee if he was forced to use mk again they could have all been up there in the top 10.

no. there were actually a bunch of MK's there. i saw the whole list. its just that only a few placed.

and i find it somewhat hypocritical that your accusing the antiban of clinging to strings when the proban kept on whining about whobo. whobo was just texas with all the good metas. Apex was an east coast regional event. Apex is the one taht should count.

and M2K is (or was) the undisputed best player in the world. not spam. although spam is really good.

 

[Some_Kind_of_JokÈ?]

if we ban MK... we have to ban Marth

becuase without Mk Marth would **** way more people...



edit:*incase you didnt know, im joking... *

 

[Aurablade262]

if we ban MK... we have to ban Marth

becuase without Mk Marth would **** way more people...



edit:*incase you didnt know, im joking... *

Unfortunatly, that isn't to farfechtched, banning MK would only lead to more and more bans.

 

[Jski]

I think players should be able to take the initiative to try other characters and discover their secrets, rather than be forced to by a ban. For instance, (some of you may already know this) Lucario's tilt A, not the kick but the one he does when at walking speed; can be altered to hit higher or lower to change how they are sent flying, by moving the control stick slightly up diagonally or down diagonally. I'm sure all the charecters have hidden quirks like this, and the discovery of them would help balance the meta game.

I am not saying to ban but to have thing attached to playing him. Much like ppl attach to spaming etc.. and sadly for the most part if you look at the big smash games ppl just play to win not so much to get better in some ways ppl need to be forced to take the initiative to work with a different character.

 

[Palpi]

your using lone examples again why don't you pull out all of the times that dojo won vs all the times he lost. This tournament was filled with up sets yes but it is the only 1 so far.

Apex doesn't matter more because M2K isn't as good as it gets. I believe spammers MK was actually more what a metaknight should do M2K is just extremely good but if an MK is played at its highest level it will be more like spammers and how dojos was vs dsf, campy and unapproachable. 1 loss does not disprove a character being broken, yes you just said its not only once but in your second paragraph you said is m2k loses it disproves him being broken which has only happened 1 time.

There is no reason to stop just because m2k lost the anti-ban are just clinging to strings like they did when mango came in here trolling and they kept saying "yah hes right!", "It makes so much sense".

edit: this tournament only had 2 of the top MK's there today and they both did bad, If DSF spammer, tyrant and possibly lee if he was forced to use mk again they could have all been up there in the top 10.

Losing to Ally isn't doing bad. Losing to Candy isn't doing bad it is out playing someone and that is exactly what happened. He is not broken he is overpowered. If he was broken, people wouldn't beat the best player in the world using the best characters. If he was broken people wouldn't take MK's to high % last stock. You are obviously unaware of what a broken character actually is. Metaknight doesn't fit the criteria.

Yes I play marth and I am saying this. (QQ darkxmarth)

 

[Ruse]

the closest you can get to being even with him without being MK himself is Snake, ROB, DK, Yoshi, and a Naner-experienced Diddy at FD.

Comedy at its finest.

 

[Palpi]

Only pride does good against MK's

 

[brinboy789]

Comedy at its finest.

diddy does decent. but besides that, yea

 

[salaboB]

no. there were actually a bunch of MK's there. i saw the whole list. its just that only a few placed.

He didn't say there weren't other MKs there, in fact he didn't even say there weren't other good MKs there. He simply said that the rest of the best MKs weren't there.

Winning arguments by repeatedly misreading your opponents' posts...getting tiresome, people.

Just once I'd like to be able to make multiple posts in a row actually progressing a discussion rather than having to correct a misreading.

 

[Master Raven]

Some other good MKs weren't there but some of the best (IE: M2K and Dojo) were.

Also I'd like to know if Dojo was playing campy vs Candy like he did with DSF.

 

[Jski]

On a side note i not really looked into this but are the same ppl wining the bit ones over and over? If so there is something wrong the same ppl should not be wining in a game like this. Could this idea what keeping meth and other characters stagnate in there place?

 

[Kewkky]

SalaboB, you're refuting EVERYTHING anti-ban is saying, when pro-ban was also using the same arguments (practically) a while before Apex. You're starting to sound like an opinion-based troll who's just trying to single-handedly prevail over the whole anti-ban community. Just because MK is impossible to beat in your eyes doesn't mean he's "too good".

Want me to bring up Akuma, like so many people have done before? See, when the best player in SF2 used Akuma, the best character in SF2, he was IMPOSSIBLE to beat... If not for other Akumas. Name one tourney in which a SINGLE different character won over ALL the Akumas, ANY tourney at all.

Has MK reached that point? Well, as far as I can see, there are different characters here and there in the tourney placings, and APEX just goes to show that MK's don't win all the tourneys, like Akuma did... See what's happening? Akuma was truly broken, he was winning all the tourneys and not allowing anyone else to win. MK is not the same case as Akuma, as you can see by any tourney results, not just Apex's.

What you're doing is closing yourself to ANY valid points. If you've just done the most amazing theory that can predict when black holes will dissipate in outer space, it only takes ONE black hole dissipating at a different time than the one predicted in order to shut down your theory... APEX is that black hole. You guys were all whining about MK's taking all the top spots (if not, most of the top spots) on the count of WHOBO's top 7 (or 8?) being MKs... Now, a difference between my "black hole" example and the current MK placings, is that MKs DON'T ALWAYS PREVAIL IN TOURNEYS, meaning it's been MORE than 1 black hole counterexample! M2K, who is THE best MK, has lost 5 sets (as far as I've counted: NinjaLink 2, Reflex 1, Ally 1, Lain 1) already... If the best MK can't win all the time, THE BEST MK, what's there left to argue? MK can't win all the tourneys he attends to, nor can he win all the sets he's pitted against...

SalaboB, stop throwing out shameful "arguments", if I may even call them that. They're so empty, I'm getting hungry just by looking at them. They are so flawed, all you're doing is refuting, refuting, refuting ALL things that are said in the anti-ban's favor. If you dislike MK and want to win against the anti-ban community and HAVE MK banned, start hosting your own non-MK tourneys and STFU. The best thing that could happen to this thread is for people like YOU, who just refute, refute, refute, to stop refuting everything people say and staying with empty counterarguments such as "APEX is just 1 tourney, it's not enough to break the pattern".

You're not even helping the pro-bans gain the edge they need to stop having their % lead reduce. Apex WAS a counterpoint to the "MK is too good, he's overpopulating the top spots". ONE counterpoint is enough to stop it. Even if Akuma was having a bad day, it wouldn't affect his legs' invincibility, his air fireballs, and whatever amazing **** he had. Humans are that: humans. We don't need someone attempting to inject common sense into this thread, because we already KNOW what this common sense is! You're just gonna give us an overdose of OBVIOUS and DUH.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Could this idea what keeping meth and other characters stagnate in there place?

Meth is playable in brawl? Nice. Now I can kick *** with my favorite drug

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Meth is playable in brawl? Nice. Now I can kick *** with my favorite drug

lol this is so funny

 

[salaboB]

SalaboB, you're refuting EVERYTHING anti-ban is saying, when pro-ban was also using the same arguments (practically) a while before Apex. You're starting to sound like an opinion-based troll who's just trying to single-handedly prevail over the whole anti-ban community. Just because MK is impossible to beat in your eyes doesn't mean he's "too good".

When did I say MK was impossible to beat? When did I even say that I think MK is impossible to beat?

Go on, find me the quote.

You're not even reading what I've been saying, are you. You're just knee jerk reacting based on what you think I should be claiming.

Yes, I'm ignoring the rest of your post. You open by blatantly putting words in my mouth, I'm not going to continue wasting my time responding to it. Find where I say, clearly and intentionally, that MK is unbeatable and I'll go ahead and respond to the rest of your claims.

 

[pure_awesome]

By far the worst thing about Apex is that I've actually seen pro-bans talking about it and saying "This sucks, how can we spin this around to support our side?"

Rather than saying "Hey, maybe I should reconsider my viewpoint a little bit."

 

[Popertop]

Only pride does good against MK's

*points out Bwett forcing Dojo to run him to time at a College station tourney(where Dojo went undefeated), winning 180% to 198%*

I think Dojo wasn't playing his best here.

He had another tourney where he lost to a snake (Razer) and he seemed to not be playing at optimum level, he normally is a LOT of **** though.

 

[salaboB]

By far the worst thing about Apex is that I've actually seen pro-bans talking about it and saying "This sucks, how can we spin this around to support our side?"

Rather than saying "Hey, maybe I should reconsider my viewpoint a little bit."

I'm honestly still waiting for a legitimate reason why this one tournament should force a reconsideration on either side.

Or should have if MK had swept it.

Either way, it's one tournament. By itself, that's statistically insignificant.

 

[ShadowLink84]

By far the worst thing about Apex is that I've actually seen pro-bans talking about it and saying "This sucks, how can we spin this around to support our side?"

Rather than saying "Hey, maybe I should reconsider my viewpoint a little bit."

Those are called idiots, we ignore them.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Whobo was one tournament too but we seen that thrown around alot.....

 

[demonictoonlink]

Those are called idiots, we ignore them.

I <3 You

God I want this to end... I'm anti-ban and all, but I'm sick of the newest post ALWAYS being about banning Metaknight...

Listen people: Despite your opinion or how you feel, just know this. Meta is NOT going to be banned anytime soon. Arguing right now is pointless. Wait a few months for more tournaments to happen, then we'll talk.