Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[|RK|]

Did you not read my post where I've stated that Lee was a former top MK main?

Sorry, didn't see that part...

 

[Kink-Link5]

No, just ban Brawl.

Its a lot easier to do and would cause less problems in the future than just banning Metaknight.

Though if you can't ban Brawl then having a counter-triangle of just Snake, Game and Watch, and Falco at the top would open more room for actual counterpicks into mid-tier.

 

[CRASHiC]

No, just ban Brawl.

Its a lot easier to do and would cause less problems in the future than just banning Metaknight.

Though if you can't ban Brawl then having a counter of just Marth, Snake, Game and Watch, Olimar, Diddy Kong, and Falco at the top would open more room for actual counterpicks into mid-tier.

Fixed
Learn more about Brawl.

 

[Sudai]

Lee wins the tournaments in Louisianna because he's better than everyone else in the State (Ask Sudai or Cyphus). They have very good players like Sudai, Cyphus, Pierre, but Lee's just on a level above that.

It's true. Lee's just on another level. We're catching up, but yeah.

As for Lee vs CO18, that was literally the first time Lee had used MK in a long time.

 

[MrTryHard]

i hate the brawl community....

This guy knows what he is talking about

 

[do21or12die]

yes.

Metaknight is simply too cheap. a lot of his moves are uninterruptable, which makes for a poor match. especially that tornato move.. wtf..

 

[Shadow 111]

Metaknight is simply too cheap. a lot of his moves are uninterruptable, which makes for a poor match. especially that tornato move.. wtf..

i hope this is a joke....

 

[Gaia_x]

I don't think Metaknight Should be banned. I spent so much time learning the match up i do better against metaknights then i do against low tiers. If you ask me. Sonic should be banned . Sense so many people play meta, Learn the match up. They eventually Stop.

 

[ducky98]

No, I'm a Bowser main and even though he is a better char there are ways around him. Even though some are ridiculous with him you can still beat him. Man up panzies.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Going in circles here. For the record, regardless of what some character boards say, my opinion of who does well enough against MK:

Snake
Diddy
Wario
Falco
Pikachu
DDD
Lucario (I think he does better against MK than people give him credit for)

Um, and apparently Ice Climbers do well against MK, when played at Meep's level.

Out of that list, most of those characters metagames are nowhere near being as developed as MK's, Snake being the closest.

Edit: All those characters probably lose 55/45 or worse to MK, so it has to be determined by the community if that is acceptable.

 

[황미영]

Going in circles here. For the record, regardless of what some character boards say, my opinion of who does well enough against MK:

Snake
Diddy
Wario
Falco
Pikachu
DDD
Lucario (I think he does better against MK than people give him credit for)

Um, and apparently Ice Climbers do well against MK, when played at Meep's level.

Out of that list, most of those characters metagames are nowhere near being as developed as MK's, Snake being the closest.

That link on your sig is a good reason as to why we shouldn't ban MK.

 

[Asdioh]

Don't forget Kirby :/

Everyone forgets Kirby...

You know how Meta Knight says "Victory.....................is my destiny" ?
Well his destiny is actually to lose to Kirby every time, he just doesn't want the word to spread.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Kirby does ok, most see it as 6/5. How it could be close to even when we have like 0 advantages in the match up, just less ****tier cons, is beyond me.

 

[Turbo Ether]

The characters I listed do better than Kirby, imo.

 

[Falconv1.0]

The characters I listed do better than Kirby, imo.

Doesn't Pikachu have a 65/35 match up vs MK? If that's the case, hell no, there's no way it's 7/3 MK's advantage.

Lucario and DDD I'm also iffy on about doing better than Kirby, maybe the same but not better. =/

 

[swordgard]

Going in circles here. For the record, regardless of what some character boards say, my opinion of who does well enough against MK:

Snake
Diddy
Wario
Falco
Pikachu
DDD
Lucario (I think he does better against MK than people give him credit for)

Um, and apparently Ice Climbers do well against MK, when played at Meep's level.

Out of that list, most of those characters metagames are nowhere near being as developed as MK's, Snake being the closest.

Edit: All those characters probably lose 55/45 or worse to MK, so it has to be determined by the community if that is acceptable.

Gonna have to agree, ics vs MK is probably 45-55 for MK or even.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Doesn't Pikachu have a 65/35 match up vs MK? If that's the case, hell no, there's no way it's 7/3 MK's advantage.

Lucario and DDD I'm also iffy on about doing better than Kirby, maybe the same but not better. =/

Kirby loses 4/6 at best imo, whereas Lucario and DDD lose 4/6 at the worst.

 

[Hylian]

The tourney you are referring to was a small Dallas tourney. Not all of our best players were there, and he did go MK more than once (The tournament said you could only go MK for 1 game out of a set, including the Finals).

He also got 4th at HOBO 16 recently (MK banned). I'm not saying Dojo cannot/will not win without MK but even some of the better players who aren't ranked in our state/ranked on the lower end can give him a hard time where as normally only the top 5 in Texas would honestly pose a real threat to him in tournament.

Lee wins the tournaments in Louisianna because he's better than everyone else in the State (Ask Sudai or Cyphus). They have very good players like Sudai, Cyphus, Pierre, but Lee's just on a level above that.

Also Anthony, most people think MK will take the top 3 spots at Genesis. Something like M2K, Dojo/Tyrant/DSF, and then another one of those guys or someone good like TKD. I mean sure you could say there's a chance for me, Reflex, Fiction, DEHF, /top players of other characters to break top 3 but realistically we would not be the favorites to get into those spots.

Um. Dojo only went MK once the entire tournament against Jingo Joe 3rd round in winners finals after he had 2 stocked jingo twice.

He didn't use MK more then once and I don't think he even dropped a single match the entire tournament.

 

[Asdioh]

Kirby loses 4/6 at best imo, whereas Lucario and DDD lose 4/6 at the worst.

...

...

>_>

Kirby can kill MK at like 80% or lower with Fsmash. He has a downthrow combo at around 0% that can put a decent chunk of damage on MK to start, plus his good grab range.

Kirby can survive gimp attempts better than half the characters you listed. He also has a better chance of gimping than pretty much all of them.

It's really not that bad for Kirby. Also, apparently Kirby's Bair will trade hits with most of MK's aerials. I haven't been able to practice this much, but if it's true, then trading hits will generally be in Kirby's favor.

It's odd that I'm defending Kirby since I'm usually saying people overestimate him...but in this case, I think he's being underestimated.

I haven't lost a single game to a MK in tourneys since 2009 started, and they were all at M2k's skill level or higher but I guess a few pool matches don't really count.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Kirby loses 4/6 at best imo, whereas Lucario and DDD lose 4/6 at the worst.

Eh, we can agree to disagree. The point is, MK has more arguably even match ups than Yun, and 6/4 is hardly unbeatable.


Thus, freedom for MK.

 

[DMG]

Um. Dojo only went MK once the entire tournament against Jingo Joe 3rd round in winners finals after he had 2 stocked jingo twice.

He didn't use MK more then once and I don't think he even dropped a single match the entire tournament.

I'm pretty sure he used him at least two times (I know about him vs Jingo, but I thought he went MK against someone like Dphat on their CP cause it was something gay? I dunno maybe it was just one), but even then it I agree he didn't use him much.

The point I was making was that he won that tourney, but it wasn't super star filled compared to HOBO 16 and the results would be a little more accurate since MK would be completely gone instead of being useable for only 1 game in a set (Like Dphat and Light would have probably placed a bit higher if they were allowed to use MK one game per set, maybe Bear too or anyone else that seconds him or has him for harder matchups/CP stages).

I was just pointing out that there is a noticeable difference of people that can be a threat to Dojo with MK removed. Even if he decided to main/get really good with Diddy/Kirby in a MK-less environment, the number of people that would be a threat to him in tournament would still be greater than currently with MK, just because the matchups would tighten up a bit.

 

[CR4SH]

The point is, MK has more arguably even match ups than Yun,

Yun can't CP his even or near even matchups to stages that are drastically in his favor and **** them there for one game of a set. Not only that, but he's at worst even, on THEIR counterpick. It's not the same game bro, that argument doesn't work at all.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not worried about your points, I just know that Dojo didn't use MK against anyone but Jingo Joe and only once that tournament.

That's all I was pointing out lol. I'm not trying to join in on the debate.

 

[Turbo Ether]

...

...

>_>

Kirby can kill MK at like 80% or lower with Fsmash. He has a downthrow combo at around 0% that can put a decent chunk of damage on MK to start, plus his good grab range.

Kirby can survive gimp attempts better than half the characters you listed. He also has a better chance of gimping than pretty much all of them.

It's really not that bad for Kirby. Also, apparently Kirby's Bair will trade hits with most of MK's aerials. I haven't been able to practice this much, but if it's true, then trading hits will generally be in Kirby's favor.

It's odd that I'm defending Kirby since I'm usually saying people overestimate him...but in this case, I think he's being underestimated.

I haven't lost a single game to a MK in tourneys since 2009 started, and they were all at M2k's skill level or higher but I guess a few pool matches don't really count.

Kirby's Fsmash is not easy to hit MK with at all. None of his kill moves are. He also has zero options when above MK. Weak options offstage, when being edge guarded by MK, and weak options on the ledge against MK. On stage all he really has is Bair and grab attempts, no way to really pressure MK due to being outranged and outsped and his OoS options are nothing special. MK above Kirby has little to fear. He has no speedy recovery option offstage; he has his five jumps with slow aerial movement and UpB with almost no horizontal coverage.

 

[Masmasher@]

I think that one of the problems i have with meta knight is that not only does he have no bad matchups but hes the only one that can evolve the odds of the matchup. Take game and watch for example. He had a somewhat even matchup against metaknight. once m2k had a few light bulbs the matchup became horrid. (though i hate game and watch so i sort of smiled on that day). There was talk that diddy could become a possible counter to meta knight. That is until the metaknight learns the matchup.

You guys that say man up let me ask you this. 1. do you think every on the proban side is a bunch of scrubs because that is a horrible generalization. 2. Are you beating the combination of the player and the character or are you just beating the player.

Really on paper and based largly on yunas/strilins criteria it doesnt looks like mk should be banned. But by the happinings in the community you cannot deny that the call to ban metaknight (simply based on the fact that its happened 3 times) does not hold any water. Scrubs and pros alike are banning together to ban him.

Ive said it before and will say it again i dont think even proprotionally that you can compare yun or any other current dominating charater to metaknight without look and the other varibles. comparing them even on paper is silly.


This part is IMO dont put it up on center stage
I know some of you arent gonna want to hear this but because of the natural game design combined with the fighting communitys way of playing it brawl matches last very very long. This mixed in with metaknights centralization (and being exponentially better then the rest of the cast) becomes a small but notictable contingency in tournament play. Think about it form a tourney player perspective. You've just enter a tournament. You are playing as lucario. You play you first match...against a MK. This guy has some skill. This combined with the fact that he is using metaknight makes the match last (in a 4 stock battle) last ten minutes. Lets face it, the time it takes a metaknight to beat your character is half the time it takes you to beat a MK with whoever you use. You look at the bracket and to get out of it you have to face 5 more metaknights. The same agonizing trival process of your characters uphill battle begins again. Imagine how damaging it is to the psyche after a while. You wont get a break as the finals is most likely to be against a metaknight. Because of the pitful design of this game really you have to be more reactive towards metaknight. what can you exploit? on paper the matchup doesnt look the worst but realistically what can you do to amass a strong front against this character. Most of your victory is based on stupid human error. I'm not sure what exact context yuna was saying the word boring. and i wont try to intepret. but here it is on my tourney perspective example


IT IS F***KING BORING.

hurts the scence too.

Also to the guy saying he uses bowser and calls us pansies
Who the f**k are you

 

[Deathcarter]

Going in circles here. For the record, regardless of what some character boards say, my opinion of who does well enough against MK:

Snake
Diddy
Wario
Falco
Pikachu
DDD
Lucario (I think he does better against MK than people give him credit for)

Um, and apparently Ice Climbers do well against MK, when played at Meep's level.

Out of that list, most of those characters metagames are nowhere near being as developed as MK's, Snake being the closest.

Edit: All those characters probably lose 55/45 or worse to MK, so it has to be determined by the community if that is acceptable.

Going near even with Meta Knight is good and all, but MK actually has one advantage on all of them except Wario: He does not have a 35:65 or worse disadvantage. Yes a 35:65 disadvantage is winnable, especially for a top tier, but to win 2 matches a set, multiple times a tournament, you are bound to run into a matchup like that more than once. Considering the rule of probability, each time you run into it after the first time, your chances of placing in the money diminish greatly, let alone the idea of a top player being the one to play the character your main is heavily disadvantaged to. MK is a simply safe option, even if he is not the best. And this is critical when you consider almost every other character is screwed over by at least one matchup (and the one other character that isn't is heavily unpopular, despite being viable.)

People will flock to MK over time, and his fanbase will continue to grow. Even if quite a few characters can beat him, that one fact outlined in my first paragraph will lead to MK being the most used character by a HUGE margin. We just are not at that point yet, so a ban is not warrented presently. Though in the future, it might be warrented as MK may stranglehold the scene. Or do you guys beleive all of the good characters actually have enough room to grow to potentially be able to deal with their harder yet winnable matchups to the point that skill in Brawl is an even MORE determining factor (I know it a huge factor already so no need to tell me that) in character matchups than it already is, resulting in MK's dominance actually wanning.

Yuna, since you were the one to bring this up, would banning Chun-Li and/or Yun in 3rd Strike actually have opened the door to allow A LOT more characters to fight. Removing MK could potentially allow the top 20 characters after MK is gone to compete (due to them for the most part not being ***** by more than one top tier if that many as well as the DDD infinite inevitably being banned after we would have crossed the threshold of no return). Could banning either Chun-Li and/or Yun have even benefitted the scene to a noticable degree that the new hypothetical scene would have been worth removing an option?

(IMO, you guys overestimate the top tier when it comes to how much superior they are than the mid tier as well as how many mid/high tier characters each of them they actually ****.)

 

[Kamikaze*]

This part is IMO dont put it up on center stage
I know some of you arent gonna want to hear this but because of the natural game design combined with the fighting communitys way of playing it brawl matches last very very long. This mixed in with metaknights centralization (and being exponentially better then the rest of the cast) becomes a small but notictable contingency in tournament play. Think about it form a tourney player perspective. You've just enter a tournament. You are playing as lucario. You play you first match...against a MK. This guy has some skill. This combined with the fact that he is using metaknight makes the match last (in a 4 stock battle) last ten minutes. Lets face it, the time it takes a metaknight to beat your character is half the time it takes you to beat a MK with whoever you use. You look at the bracket and to get out of it you have to face 5 more metaknights. The same agonizing trival process of your characters uphill battle begins again. Imagine how damaging it is to the psyche after a while. You wont get a break as the finals is most likely to be against a metaknight. Because of the pitful design of this game really you have to be more reactive towards metaknight. what can you exploit? on paper the matchup doesnt look the worst but realistically what can you do to amass a strong front against this character. Most of your victory is based on stupid human error. I'm not sure what exact context yuna was saying this word boring. and i wont try to intepret. but here it is on my tourney example

This paragraph is just a huge john about how you have to work a little bit harder to beat MK. Man the **** up kthxbai

 

[Masmasher@]

This paragraph is just a huge john about how you have to work a little bit harder to beat MK. Man the **** up kthxbai

Weak sentiments but its the truth. Plus if the scene is boring then it will die.
Work a little harder. Yeah.....right. (sarcasm)

Getting preached to by a MK main now ive seen everything.......(sarcasm)

Read into the post more and stop cherry picking.

 

[tekkie]

wow he placed worse with his secondary? who'd have thought it lol. random tournaments that ban MK don't really mean anything, it's not a permanent change that people are actually attempting to adapt to.

I see this argument boiling down to "They use MK as a main therefore they are less good with their secondary, so they don't have to prove that MK is a crutch."

Or, can anyone prove that MK isn't basically hitting a "win" button (with the appropriate skill level)?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Going near even with Meta Knight is good and all, but MK actually has one advantage on all of them except Wario: He does not have a 35:65 or worse disadvantage. Yes a 35:65 disadvantage is winnable, especially for a top tier, but to win 2 matches a set, multiple times a tournament, you are bound to run into a matchup like that more than once. Considering the rule of probability, each time you run into it after the first time, your chances of placing in the money diminish greatly, let alone the idea of a top player being the one to play the character your main is heavily disadvantaged to. MK is a simply safe option, even if he is not the best. And this is critical when you consider almost every other character is screwed over by at least one matchup (and the one other character that isn't is heavily unpopular, despite being viable.)

People will flock to MK over time, and his fanbase will continue to grow. Even if quite a few characters can beat him, that one fact outlined in my first paragraph will lead to MK being the most used character by a HUGE margin. We just are not at that point yet, so a ban is not warrented presently. Though in the future, it might be warrented as MK may stranglehold the scene. Or do you guys beleive all of the good characters actually have enough room to grow to potentially be able to deal with their harder yet winnable matchups to the point that skill in Brawl is an even MORE determining factor (I know it a huge factor already so no need to tell me that) in character matchups than it already is, resulting in MK's dominance actually wanning.

Yuna, since you were the one to bring this up, would banning Chun-Li and/or Yun in 3rd Strike actually have opened the door to allow A LOT more characters to fight. Removing MK could potentially allow the top 20 characters after MK is gone to compete (due to them for the most part not being ***** by more than one top tier if that many as well as the DDD infinite inevitably being banned after we would have crossed the threshold of no return). Could banning either Chun-Li and/or Yun have even benefitted the scene to a noticable degree that the new hypothetical scene would have been worth removing an option?

(IMO, you guys overestimate the top tier when it comes to how much superior they are than the mid tier as well as how many mid/high tier characters each of them they actually ****.)

Imo, Snake, Wario, Diddy and Pikachu require no secondary to consistantly win tournaments. I would include Falco, but as of right now, I have no idea how badly Pikachu's new chaingrab on him, affects the matchup.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Weak sentiments but its the truth. Plus if the scene is boring then it will die.
Work a little harder. Yeah.....right. (sarcasm)

Read into the post more and stop cherry picking.

Oh well, let it die. A game aint even worth playing if it has to ban chars.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Oh well, let it die. A game aint even worth playing if it has to ban chars.

SSF2T and SF3TS weren't worth playing?

 

[Nic64]

I see this argument boiling down to "They use MK as a main therefore they are less good with their secondary, so they don't have to prove that MK is a crutch."

Or, can anyone prove that MK isn't basically hitting a "win" button (with the appropriate skill level)?

ok your right dojo and m2k would be trash without meta knight, he's just a win button how stoopid

 

[Masmasher@]

Oh well, let it die. A game aint even worth playing if it has to ban chars.

Do we have to go into this..........cmon masmasher control yourself.......

 

[Deathcarter]

This paragraph is just a huge john about how you have to work a little bit harder to beat MK. Man the **** up kthxbai

It does not help when BY FAR the easiest option to win a tournament available to a player is to play MK. Humans are attracted to the easiest path, and when MK is one of two characters without a debatable 65:35 disadvantage (and much easier to learn than the other one), we will see more of him. It will be a problem, not on how broken MK is as that is not even a problem in the first place, but on how basically most people in the future will use him, despite the fact that there are 16 viable options to choose from, simply due to him not being royally screwed over in a matchup (which is my main point, how safe he is, not how he does not have even mathups). Not to mention that you pretty much HAVE to be more skilled than the MK to win, when being close or even to the MK player in skill will often times not be enough, assuming that you are not using MK himself(and in that case, he could secondary your characters biggest weakness and when considering that, MK sounds VERY enticing).

 

[Kamikaze*]

I see this argument boiling down to "They use MK as a main therefore they are less good with their secondary, so they don't have to prove that MK is a crutch."

Or, can anyone prove that MK isn't basically hitting a "win" button (with the appropriate skill level)?

You're a fecking moron. M2K, the best meta main on earth lost to Ninjalink. Your logic sucks donkey balls dipped in piss. kthxbai

 

[Master Raven]

I see this argument boiling down to "They use MK as a main therefore they are less good with their secondary, so they don't have to prove that MK is a crutch."

Or, can anyone prove that MK isn't basically hitting a "win" button (with the appropriate skill level)?

Believe it or not some top MK mains actually sold their soul to MK the very day he was announced.

 

[Ripple]

never mind

 

[Kamikaze*]

It does not help when BY FAR the easiest option to win a tournament available to a player is to play MK. Humans are attracted to the easiest path, and when MK is one of two characters without a debatable 65:35 disadvantage (and much easier to learn than the other one), we will see more of him. It will be a problem, not on how broken MK is as that is not even a problem in the first place, but on how basically most people in the future will use him, despite the fact that there are 16 viable options to choose from, simply due to him not being royally screwed over in a matchup (which is my main point, how safe he is, not how he does not have even mathups). Not to mention that you pretty much HAVE to be more skilled than the MK to win, when being close or even to the MK player in skill will often times not be enough, assuming that you are not using MK himself(and in that case, he could secondary your characters biggest weakness and when considering that, MK sounds VERY enticing).

Banning meta is unethical as feck considering people have worked their fecking azzes off sinch march freaking 9th which is far before a tier list even came out.

Would you rather have an ethical community with MK allowed or a dirty one with MK bant?

 

[Deathcarter]

Imo, Snake, Wario, Diddy and Pikachu require no secondary to consistantly win tournaments. I would include Falco, but as of right now, I have no idea how badly Pikachu's new chaingrab on him, affects the matchup.

Doesn't Snake, Diddy, and Pikachu have a 65:35 disadvantaged matchup against DDD, Luigi, and Marth respectively? I do beleive you understand this, but my current argument is not how MK is advantaged over the cast, but how the rest of the cast destroys each other and MK managing to slip by into the money spots due to not having to worry about a deadly threat to him etting into the money and how this will inevitably move more people to main MK much, much more than the rest of the cast.