Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Sliq]

If you main MK you are a pedophile. That's science.

 

[Punishment Divine]

If you main MK you are a pedophile. That's science.

This

 

[kirbstir]

Matchup ratios are 100:0 stupid

 

[NinjaLink]

yea the ratios are so stupid.

 

[goldemblem]

It's this poll even going to be taken into account by the SBR? almost all of the people who vote haven't even played against good metas

 

[da K.I.D.]

If you main MK you are a pedophile. That's science.

these are words i can believe in

 

[RDK]

It's this poll even going to be taken into account by the SBR? almost all of the people who vote haven't even played against good metas

Yeah, public polls would never even be considered into an SBR decision of this magnitude. This was just to get the general feel for the community's opinion, and it's not even made by the SBR--it's for a podcast.

 

[arch knight]

these are words i can believe in

elaborate on this plz as to how?

 

[Overswarm]

Every time I see someone post X:Y, I realize they generally don't know what they are talking about. The only way you could ever give a ratio like that is if it was for your character... and even then it is difficult to od accurately. I hate having to use them. Glad to see others agree.

 

[gantrain05]

well, i don't think that the "fun" factor should be brought up when talking about banning a character, tournaments are played for cash prizes!! yeah, theres people that go there just to have fun, and there are people who have fun and still win money, but the bottom line should be whether or not MK meets the requirements for a ban, if your sick of playing all MK all the time thats what friendlies are for, just my two cents.

 

[Skyshroud]

I think one of the main issues here that is going to be impossible to get over is the difference between the two halves. People were saying that we needed a decision. We got one. The discussion hasn't ended. Why? The anti-ban side and the pro-ban side are very different. The pro-ban side did not get the decision they wanted, but because they are so vocal, they are still speaking out. I have a feeling that if MK was banned, the anti-ban side would have been more accepting of the decision. I'm not trying to bash the pro-ban side, I think everyone is entitled to argue their opinion. However, everyone needs to learn when becoming too vocal can hurt the community. We are rapidly approaching that line.

 

[arch knight]

I think one of the main issues here that is going to be impossible to get over is the difference between the two halves. People were saying that we needed a decision. We got one. The discussion hasn't ended. Why? The anti-ban side and the pro-ban side are very different. The pro-ban side did not get the decision they wanted, but because they are so vocal, they are still speaking out. I have a feeling that if MK was banned, the anti-ban side would have been more accepting of the decision. I'm not trying to bash the pro-ban side, I think everyone is entitled to argue their opinion. However, everyone needs to learn when becoming too vocal can hurt the community. We are rapidly approaching that line.

dont try to stop it i already tried....its a losing battle for all parties

 

[UTDZac]

Every time I see someone post X:Y, I realize they generally don't know what they are talking about. The only way you could ever give a ratio like that is if it was for your character... and even then it is difficult to od accurately. I hate having to use them. Glad to see others agree.

0:0

On a side note: does MK lose to superior mindgames against non-MK players?

 

[Tenki]

0:0

On a side note: do MK players lose to superior mindgames from non-MK players?

Fixed (?)

Of course they can lose to superior "mindgames" and/or gameplay - things like baiting and punishing airdodges, intercepting up-B with an attack/counterattack. It's not like MK can just spam something against a superior player (who's competent in the matchup) and win :l

 

[UTDZac]

Fixed (?)

Of course they can lose to superior "mindgames" and/or gameplay - things like baiting and punishing airdodges, intercepting up-B with an attack/counterattack. It's not like MK can just spam something against a superior player (who's competent in the matchup) and win :l

Yeah fixed.

I do understand that superior mindgames will always triumph. It's the player, not so much the character. However MK is special. There are some matchups where I don't think superior mindgames can affect the outcome. His tornado honestly out-right beats DK players on stages like Battlefield.

So my question was: Does MK (the character) become powerful enough in certain situations that it's no longer a player vs. player matchup. As in, the MK player just has to know a few techniques as well as knowledge of the character matchup to override mindgames.

 

[arch knight]

yes and no
mk can basicly counter just about any move ive seen or tried however that can be out done by people who know how the player goes about winning. do they wait till your in the air or when your on the edge. are they offensive pressure or defensive shell. the shuttle can be easily gamed by those who know how to counter

 

[Justblaze647]

yes and no
mk can basicly counter just about any move ive seen or tried however that can be out done by people who know how the player goes about winning. do they wait till your in the air or when your on the edge. are they offensive pressure or defensive shell. the shuttle can be easily gamed by those who know how to counter

there isn't a ballot for the indecisive, and the verdict has already been cast on this issue...

 

[brinboy789]

there isn't a ballot for the indecisive, and the verdict has already been cast on this issue...

the decision has already, just let this die. we're ALREADY on the next ban topic, D3's infinites. whats next? Diddy's nanerz? its a neverending bandwagon -_________-

 

[Justblaze647]

the decision has already, just let this die. we're ALREADY on the next ban topic, D3's infinites. whats next? Diddy's nanerz? its a neverending bandwagon -_________-

MK is a neverending bandwagon...

<_<

 

[arch knight]

i agree with everyone above me hence my post "Its a losing battle....neither parties will win"

 

[St. Viers]

MK is a neverending bandwagon...

<_<

your mom is a neverending bandwagon.

 

[aeghrur]

The bandwagon stops when this community gets what they want, a ban.
Seems like it's DDD's unfortunate day.

 

[Justblaze647]

your mom is a neverending bandwagon.

your spam is a neverending bandwagon... Bit.ch

 

[XienZo]

the decision has already, just let this die. we're ALREADY on the next ban topic, D3's infinites. whats next? Diddy's nanerz? its a neverending bandwagon -_________-

Lets say that our game is theoritically flawed to the point that there are some arbitrary amount of characters, techniques, and such that need to be banned to optimize the metagame. How will we ever get there if we don't discuss it?


Thus, we should ban MK and DDD's infinite. Obviously.

 

[Master Raven]

I love arch knight.

 

[brinboy789]

Lets say that

but its not. at least the SBR thinks not

Spoiler

yes i KNOW TO's can do w/e they want.

 

[salaboB]

The bandwagon stops when this community gets what they want, a ban.
Seems like it's DDD's unfortunate day.

Or when someone can argue significantly more persuasively that it's not needed to be banned than that it is.

Kinda like what happens whenever someone says Snake is too broken and needs banning, or even Pit (Arrow spam is too good!).

 

[arch knight]

I love arch knight.

kinda creepy.....-.o lol dont know how to respond to this...

 

[XienZo]

but its not. at least the SBR thinks not

Spoiler

yes i KNOW TO's can do w/e they want.

Oh, are you just going to listen to what the leaders say?

Don't you know, they're just trying to BRAINWASH YOU. They want to slowly trick you into believing that MK and DDD's infinites are perfectly legal for tournament play.

Ah, but who knows, maybe its already too late for you...

Anyway, it is likely that since Sakurai developed the game without any thought of competitiveness, he basically threw a dart in the dark. He's obviously not going to hit the bullseye.

Chances are, the optimal combination of # of characters and techniques is not the same as Sakurai's random shot in the dark. You can believe its that .2%. But you'll lose out 99.8% of the time.

 

[Zankoku]

While I wouldn't recommend blindly following everything the SBR says, I would like everyone to stop listening to anything brinboy789 might say.

 

[brinboy789]

Oh, are you just going to listen to what the leaders say?

Don't you know, they're just trying to BRAINWASH YOU. They want to slowly trick you into believing that MK and DDD's infinites are perfectly legal for tournament play.

Ah, but who knows, maybe its already too late for you...

yes, i try to listen to the leaders. why? because it provides order and stability because they are intelligent posts/smashers, and IMO their opinions should be weighed heavily the most. if they thought MK shouldve been banned, then i would have switched to probably my secondary, diddy.

Spoiler

silly AP classes

While I wouldn't recommend blindly following everything the SBR says, I would like everyone to stop listening to anything brinboy789 might say.

oh no, its ankonku. idc if your a mod, your really pissing me off. i DID say taht i know that TO's can do whatever they want right? -_____________-

 

[arch knight]

Oh, are you just going to listen to what the leaders say?

Don't you know, they're just trying to BRAINWASH YOU. They want to slowly trick you into believing that MK and DDD's infinites are perfectly legal for tournament play.

Ah, but who knows, maybe its already too late for you...

well it is legal in a way since they are both fighting styles CHEAP STYLES but styles non the less im not brainwashed either...

 

[1048576]

You're making no sense. Even if anything you said was true, then it's perfectly fine. MK does well against the majority of the cast, barring Snake, and Snake is an arguable counter for MK, not to mention you can just go MK yourself, or choose a character that doesn't have an awful matchup with him and do your homework. That's, at the least, a stable meta of two shifting characters, not one.

In my scenario, you would never choose Snake. He has counters. You might run into the odd counter. To ensure you win the tourney, it's always better to pick MK, at least in my scenario.

If Snake counters MK, then we have a 3 character meta. But it's up to the anti-ban side to prove that's the case.

 

[XienZo]

LOLZ, Ankoku,just chill and let Brinboy have his fun.

yes, i try to listen to the leaders. why? because it provides order and stability because they are intelligent posts/smashers, and IMO their opinions should be weighed heavily the most. if they thought MK shouldve been banned, then i would have switched to probably my secondary, diddy.

Spoiler

silly AP classes

Ooh, but what if facts go AGAINST their opinions? What if it is proven that the optimal metagame will most certainly require a few characters to be banned, and proven as legitly as the law of sines? What if we prove that DDD can ALWAYS get a grab in thruogh frame data? Who would you believe, the SBR.... or your own copy of Brawl?

In my scenario, you would never choose Snake. He has counters. You might run into the odd counter. To ensure you win the tourney, it's always better to pick MK, at least in my scenario.

If Snake counters MK, then we have a 3 character meta. But it's up to the anti-ban side to prove that's the case.

You forget, that only works if MK had 100:0s. If you played as Snake, you would never be "countered" by a HIGHER LEVEL character that he has a clear advantage to, like Jigglypuff, while MK runs the risk of being "countered" by a high level Jigglypuff.

Just because you have more advantages doesn't mean you'll always win with those advantages.

 

[Zankoku]

oh no, its ankonku. idc if your a mod, your really pissing me off. i DID say taht i know that TO's can do whatever they want right? -_____________-

You're pissing me off, because everything I've seen you post has been a stripped down reiteration of someone else's post. The difference is that the other guy knows why he thinks what he thinks, while you just take the thesis and forget about silly things like supporting details.

 

[brinboy789]

LOLZ, Ankoku,just chill and let Brinboy have his fun.



Ooh, but what if facts go AGAINST their opinions? What if it is proven that the optimal metagame will most certainly require a few characters to be banned, and proven as legitly as the law of sines? What if we prove that DDD can ALWAYS get a grab in thruogh frame data? Who would you believe, the SBR.... or your own copy of Brawl?

well i dont BLINDLY follow the SBR's decision, if it was proven that MK SHOULD be banned, then i would go along with it.

and yea just let me have my fun

You're pissing me off, because everything I've seen you post has been a stripped down reiteration of someone else's post. The difference is that the other guy knows why he thinks what he thinks, while you just take the thesis and forget about silly things like supporting details.

yea? so what do i do, just watch the debate go on without at least trying] to help? true, im not the greatest debator, but at least i try if you dont like my posts, put me on ignore, i really couldnt care less.

 

[XienZo]

well i dont BLINDLY follow the SBR's decision, if it was proven that MK SHOULD be banned, then i would go along with it.

and yea just let me have my fun

OK, lets let the optimal number of characters in an optimal metagame = C


Lets let the number of characters some Japanese guy put in the game = D

What is the probablity that C=D?

 

[Justblaze647]

yea? so what do i do, just watch the debate go on without at least trying] to help? true, im not the greatest debator, but at least i try if you dont like my posts, put me on ignore, i really couldnt care less.

Try not to look so offended dude...

 

[BentoBox]

ITT: Theorycrafting.

 

[salaboB]

You forget, that only works if MK had 100:0s. If you played as Snake, you would never be "countered" by a HIGHER LEVEL character that he has a clear advantage to, like Jigglypuff, while MK runs the risk of being "countered" by a high level Jigglypuff.

It's still an overall advantage as long as MK doesn't have worse than 50:50's.

It doesn't have to be "You pick him you win" to be an unfair advantage -- and for good competition, the playing field shield be fair. (This is entirely different from "cheap" things)