Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[da K.I.D.]

A stage is not automatically assumed to be legal until proven otherwise, this is the same for characters.

Wrong.

actually all stages, all characters and all game types are assumed to be legal when we first got the game.

its just that some stages and game types were found guilty much much sooner than characters of other stages
p.s. THC is awesome
*waits for impending black jokes*

 

[Atomsk_92]

lol i love what this became XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

actually all stages, all characters and all game types are assumed to be legal when we first got the game.

its just that some stages and game types were found guilty much much sooner than characters of other stages

That is incorrect. Stages are all auomatically assumed to be neutral, as are matchups and everything else. There is no assumption of legality when it comes to things.

In short they must be proven legal or illegal and in times where sides may conflict, both sides must prove their argument.

lol i love what this became XD

Better than discussing MK

 

[The Halloween Captain]

<_< I did not do anything!

You need more practice with Ivysaur.

I swear, I actually quit PT because Ivy's spacing was so difficult, but if you master it and avoid gimps, it may have an advantage against MK.

That being said, I found the Ivysaur spacing issues insane.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You need more practice with Ivysaur.

I swear, I actually quit PT because Ivy's spacing was so difficult, but if you master it and avoid gimps, it may have an advantage against MK.

That being said, I found the Ivysaur spacing issues insane.

What moves does Ivysaur have thatt can truly outranges MK.
No let me clarify.
What moves does ivysaur have that outrange MK and can be used reliably?
What move does Ivysaur have that MK has no answer to?

 

[Natch]

You need more practice with Ivysaur.

I swear, I actually quit PT because Ivy's spacing was so difficult, but if you master it and avoid gimps, it may have an advantage against MK.

That being said, I found the Ivysaur spacing issues insane.

Ivy is that difficult to space with? I found her pretty easy to space with once I got the bloody hang of her high learning curve. She is such an awkward character to learn.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That is incorrect. Stages are all auomatically assumed to be neutral, as are matchups and everything else. There is no assumption of legality when it comes to things.

In short they must be proven legal or illegal and in times where sides may conflict, both sides must prove their argument.

That is incorrect.

if we make banned=guilty and legal=innocent than,
everything is assumed to be neutral and in this case neutrality is innocence. and if neutrality is innocence than everything must be proven guilt worthy

 

[Master Raven]

perfect this
perfect that

I nominate Wolf for God tier if you use his shine PERFECTLY.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What moves does Ivysaur have thatt can truly outranges MK.
No let me clarify.
What moves does ivysaur have that outrange MK and can be used reliably?
What move does Ivysaur have that MK has no answer to?

Dash attack (cancels out tornado), bullet seed, D-tilt, F-smash (situationally), Vine whip (as an offencive maneuver), and maybe Razor leaf, not to mention Bair and Uair.

Everything Ivy has outranges MK slightly, but must be spaced perfectly.

EDIT:

Ivy is that difficult to space with? I found her pretty easy to space with once I got the bloody hang of her high learning curve. She is such an awkward character to learn.

I never got the hang of her high learning curve. I'll take your word on the matchup.

So what is your opinion?

 

[BentoBox]

What moves does Ivysaur have thatt can truly outranges MK.
No let me clarify.
What moves does ivysaur have that outrange MK and can be used reliably?
What move does Ivysaur have that MK has no answer to?

I do believe I've read on the PT boards that ivy's d-tilt/neutral a had more range. I would not be surprised if his f-air tied with MK's too. And his b-air... albeit weak, has phenomenal range. I picked up PT recently as a joke character but they can really stand their own. They also claimed that the only character that does outrange it is DDD.

 

[Atomsk_92]

**** i bet Sakuri thought of Air Man and Wood Man when he designed this game

 

[M.K]

I do believe I've read on the PT boards that ivy's d-tilt/neutral a had more range. I would not be surprised if his f-air tied with MK's too. And his b-air... albeit weak, has phenomenal range. I picked up PT recently as a joke character but they can really stand their own. They also claimed that the only character that does outrange it is DDD.

His F-Air comes out much too slowly in order to counter Meta-Knight's Fair.
His B-Air DOES have phenomenal range. It's the ultimate approach tactic.
Pokemon Trainer is severly, serverly underrated.

 

[Natch]

Dash attack (cancels out tornado), bullet seed, D-tilt, F-smash (situationally), Vine whip (as an offencive maneuver), and maybe Razor leaf, not to mention Bair and Uair.

Everything Ivy has outranges MK slightly, but must be spaced perfectly.

EDIT:


I never got the hang of her high learning curve. I'll take your word on the matchup.

So what is your opinion?

I don't use PT anymore, and I never really played MK with PT. I have no real thoughts on the matchup.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

His F-Air comes out much too slowly in order to counter Meta-Knight's Fair.
His B-Air DOES have phenomenal range. It's the ultimate approach tactic.
Pokemon Trainer is severly, serverly underrated.

He does have momentum issues that are even greater than Lucario's, though.

 

[MarKO X]

Check the new CP system with Ivysaur countering MK.

MK loses to Ivysaur.
Ivysaur loses to Charizard and Ike.
Charizard and Ike lose to Squirtle.
Squirtle loses to Pikachu.
Pikachu loses to Kirby (stone).
Kirby loses to Lucario (fighting beats rock... right?).
Lucario loses to Mewtwo.

 

[XienZo]

if we make banned=guilty and legal=innocent than,
everything is assumed to be neutral and in this case neutrality is innocence. and if neutrality is innocence than everything must be proven guilt worthy

Well, you can't do that.

We can just as well make banned=innocent and legal=guilty, if we were to start off the neutral as MK being banned.

As it happens, neither side is the assumed case, so neither gets any special treatment over the other.


On the other hand, I love how Allisbrawl have their thread named "MK being banned discussion"

 

[Atomsk_92]

Does that mean that Nega Duck beats Darkwing duck?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Steak beats all. Especially super steak. Don't ever let steak get the smashball, it's like having two Falcon Punches collide.

 

[ShadowLink84]

if we make banned=guilty and legal=innocent than,
everything is assumed to be neutral and in this case neutrality is innocence. and if neutrality is innocence than everything must be proven guilt worthy

Neutral=neutral.
I clearly stated, the stages and characters are neutral. They are not assumed to be legal, they are not assumed to be illegal.
As soon as someone palces the claim, they must prove their argument since their is no assumption.
This is the same with matchups. It remains as an unknown until proven legal/illegal.

Dash attack (cancels out tornado), bullet seed, D-tilt, F-smash (situationally), Vine whip (as an offencive maneuver), and maybe Razor leaf, not to mention Bair and Uair.

Everything Ivy has outranges MK slightly, but must be spaced perfectly.

Hmm I'll check it out. you can only cancel the tornado when it is n the ground.
I'll test out what you said later tomorrow.

 

[MarKO X]

Noooo, steak getting the smashball is like deleting Brawl.

 

[HeroMystic]

Charizard and Ike lose to Squirtle.

Ike decimates Squirtle.

 

[aeghrur]

Steak beats all. Especially super steak. Don't ever let steak get the smashball, it's like having two Falcon Punches collide.

You should stop maining Lucario and start maining Sonic. Then you'll experience the true power of the steak. Allow the steak to take over my friend, and give up that chocolate.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You should stop maining Lucario and start maining Sonic. Then you'll experience the true power of the steak. Allow the steak to take over my friend, and give up that chocolate.

Actually, I don't main Sonic because I can't play Sonic. I can't play Peach or Marth either.

Besides, you can only have Chocolate Rain, a Steak Storm doesn't work as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@SL84
i dont think any situation can be considered neutral
i think that if it is in the game it has to be guilty or innocent and it cant really be neither

 

[salaboB]

@SL84
i dont think any situation can be considered neutral
i think that if it is in the game it has to be guilty or innocent and it cant really be neither

There are "neutral", "counterpick", and "banned" stages...

 

[BMX]

Metaknight Shouldnt Be Banned It Seperates The Men From The Boys To Beat A Good Metaknight Ik That!

I Wouldnt Mind Though Lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

How is that so? One of the proclaimed (by the pro ban side) "reasons" for banning Meta Knight is that he has "no bad match ups". Proving or arguing that Snake contradicts that theory is not grasping at straws-- it's a direct response to the argument made. I don't know how you like to debate.

I don't think you understand what he's trying to say.

Proving this correct would be a direct response HOWEVER he is suggesting that the claim itself is grasping at straws.

A direct response CAN be grasping at straws based on the content IF the content is sufficently a sufficent leap of logic. For example, were I trying to suggest that the earth was 3000 years old, and when presented with fossils from before then saying, "the devil put them there" would be grasping at straws.

Granted, grasping at straws is often subjective, and it varies from person to person. For M2K saying Snake>MK is not grasping at straws, since he consistently maintained that Snake beat MK. But for others, it might've been intellectually dishonest.

The majority of the community are like sheep. Do you notice how most of the TO's follow the regulations (well, most of them) that SBR sets out for the community? We once used the random pick system to decide stages. Once the SBR changed the rule set for that, everyone changed to the strike system. There were also plenty of tournaments in which the Infinite Dimensional Cape was allowed, prior to the release of the rule set, in which it was defined as a banned tactic.

Unless you're in Atlantic North...

Atlantic North has a "unique" ruleset, in case you haven't noticed, I also doubt that MK would be banned by most Atlantic North TOs even if the SBR did ban him.

That being said, anti-banners: Prove that MK does not in fact break the counterpick system.

Ummm, how do you prove a negative?

And who are these "collective minds" you speak of? The match up threads in most boards are garbage by comparison to say the Marth boards, and the Marth boards are not even entirely accurate (although they've very **** good). In order to make a decisive assumption on his match ups, you would need at least the quality of what the Marth boards possess. No one board does, and in fact, the Meta Knight boards are terrible.

That's agreed. Nobody seems interested in visualizing how a high-level match develops, it's extremely frustrating trying to get people to think in terms of that.

So we end up with completely outlandish conclusions about who beats who, it's rather sad, and that's why the boards are inconsistent.

Countering Meta=/= Free tourney win.

Doing well against Falco, DDD, Snake, G&W, random other top/high tiers as well as MK equals tourney wins.

After being afraid of Snake for the first half of Brawl's metagame, our anti-Snake strategies are pretty well refined by now.

Actually no, Snakes should be taking the top spots. Tournaments should go, MK beats everyone but Snake, Snake beats MK in the finals. Like in the beginning when Snake was top.

Unless we don't have enough Snakes at the skill level where MK>Snake. Which is a possibility, but unlikely IMO.

Burden of proof?
That would be if something was already set in stone. There isn't s the burden of proof is on both parties.

This isn't court and you're using the burden of prof incorrectly.

No, he isn't.

Burden of proof falls on the side attempting to prove something. Always.

It's basic logic since you can't prove a negative.

Burden of proof is based on the perception.

If innocent until proven guilty, then the proof must be made by the plantiff, aka pro-ban side.

If guilty until proven innocent, then the proof must be made by the defendant, aka anti-ban.

MK is accused of being broken, making MK the defendant. The pro-banners have the burden of proof. (in this country, anyway...

Spoiler

unless you're black.

) [badoutdatedjokes]

But we're dealing with logic, not judiciaries.

It is impossible to prove a negative using induction, therefore guilty until proven innocent is illogical.

That's why it fails as a judicial system.

Wrong.
The burden of proof is the result of when the defendant is automatically assumed to be innocent until he has been proven guilty. That is why there is a defendant and a plaintiff.
That assumption of innocence until proven otherwise is why the burden of proof falls upon the plaintiff.

In this case there is no assumption of innocence. There is no argument that has automatically been assumed to be correct until proven to be incorrect.
MK is neither ban worthy nor perfectly legal until either side has proven their argument and disproved the argument.

Again you are using burden of proof completely outside of its original purpose and simply using it to serve your purposes.


@marko: Wrong. This is akin t a scientific debate, not a court of law. A stage is not automatically assumed to be legal until proven otherwise, this is the same for characters.

In a scientific debate we do not assume an invisable pink unicorn exists until proven otherwise.

The assumption of innocence is derived from basic logic, and it came from math. It was furthermore incorperated into the scientific method by Karl Popper.


Because induction can NEVER disprove ANYTHING (with the exception that the disproof is based on something either be not disproven or not proven) practically speaking, the burden of proof lies with the side making the assertion.

Besided, burden of proof is on anti-ban to prove Sanke is a counter, since proban is assuming the null hypothesis.

True.

Anything other then neutral has the burden of proof in all cases.

QFT. Every matchup is assumed neutral unless advantages are shown. It's already accepted that every other character has counters. So right now the burden of proof is on the antiban to show that Snake counters.

Which is part of the metascheme of the argument, towards ultimately proving pro-ban.

In this part of the argument, the burden of proof lies with anti-ban, but not the overall argument.

That is incorrect. Stages are all auomatically assumed to be neutral, as are matchups and everything else. There is no assumption of legality when it comes to things.

In short they must be proven legal or illegal and in times where sides may conflict, both sides must prove their argument.

Because it's impossible to prove a negative you are incorrect.

All is assumed neutral until proven otherwise.

I do believe I've read on the PT boards that ivy's d-tilt/neutral a had more range. I would not be surprised if his f-air tied with MK's too. And his b-air... albeit weak, has phenomenal range. I picked up PT recently as a joke character but they can really stand their own. They also claimed that the only character that does outrange it is DDD.

But ivysaur has a problem, he telegraphs his moves WAY too much.

Well, you can't do that.

We can just as well make banned=innocent and legal=guilty, if we were to start off the neutral as MK being banned.

As it happens, neither side is the assumed case, so neither gets any special treatment over the other.


On the other hand, I love how Allisbrawl have their thread named "MK being banned discussion"

no, you're banned=innocent and legal=guilty is just totally illogical. You're forcing people to prove a negative which defies the basic tenants of logic.


It's not a fairness issue, it's the simple fact that there are fundamental logical differences in each side and they require different paths of prove. That's where assumption of guilt or innocence comes in.

It's all math folks.

 

[Sasha]

Ike decimates Squirtle.

Ike has teh ph1r3.

Squirtle has teh w4t3r.

Squirtle >> Ike.

 

[salaboB]

Ummm, how do you prove a negative?

You can prove that he doesn't break the CP system, you're just looking at it wrong here: Prove that MK can be CPed effectively (I would add, so that he's not always the best choice -- yes, there will always be a best character but that doesn't mean the best character should always be the best choice). If it can be demonstrated, it proves he does not break the CP system.

See, there is a positive proof that proves that negative. Doesn't mean all the negatives can possibly be proven, but this one was just a wording issue.

 

[BrawlLover]

the only way for mk to be banned now is to have a fast projectile

 

[da K.I.D.]

amazingly logical and rediculously good post.

that was amazing, i think that was the first time i ever learned something non smash related from these boards...

I might have to add you to my sig for this little slice of wyn.

 

[MarKO X]

Unless you're in Atlantic North...

Atlantic North has a "unique" ruleset, in case you haven't noticed, I also doubt that MK would be banned by most Atlantic North TOs even if the SBR did ban him.

Can't speak for all of AN, but NY is already using no tripping. We probably gonna be having Brawl+ matches as a standard soon too.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Can't speak for all of AN, but NY is already using no tripping. We probably gonna be having Brawl+ matches as a standard soon too.

please be more specific,
there are two seperate smash communities in the state of new york

 

[CO18]

You can prove that he doesn't break the CP system, you're just looking at it wrong here: Prove that MK can be CPed effectively (I would add, so that he's not always the best choice -- yes, there will always be a best character but that doesn't mean the best character should always be the best choice). If it can be demonstrated, it proves he does not break the CP system.

See, there is a positive proof that proves that negative. Doesn't mean all the negatives can possibly be proven, but this one was just a wording issue.

Metaknight is by far not always the best choice, certain characters do better in a plethora of matchups.

It is a better choice to use Dedede vs snake,mario,dk,bowser,luigi,samus,wolf,wario and probably a few others.

It is better to use falco or olimar Vs Dedede than mk.

It is better to use Gaw, marth, rob, or kirby vs Falco.

It is better to use Dedede,pikachu,rob,falco vs snake

It is better to use pikachu vs fox, zss

Etc Etc Etc

Metaknight is definitley not always the best choice.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike has teh ph1r3.

Squirtle has teh w4t3r.

Squirtle >> Ike.

There can be people that are normal types but have elemental attacks. <_<

 

[salaboB]

Metaknight is by far not always the best choice, certain characters do better in a plethora of matchups.

It is a better choice to use Dedede vs snake,mario,dk,bowser,luigi,samus,wolf,wario and probably a few others.

It is better to use falco or olimar Vs Dedede than mk.

It is better to use Gaw, marth, rob, or kirby vs Falco.

It is better to use Dedede,pikachu,rob,falco vs snake

It is better to use pikachu vs fox, zss

Etc Etc Etc

Metaknight is definitley not always the best choice.

That's for counterpicking, not when you might face a counterpick. I guess I should have worded it better, it was silly of me to assume people would keep it in the context of my previous statements about it.

Nobody has said MK is everyone's worst matchup. Demonstrate that he's not the best choice when you're picking double blind or facing a counterpick from an opponent who can play anyone against you if you want to show why he doesn't break the CP system.

 

[CO18]

That's for counterpicking, not when you might face a counterpick. I guess I should have worded it better, it was silly of me to assume people would keep it in the context of my previous statements about it.

Nobody has said MK is everyone's worst matchup. Demonstrate that he's not the best choice when you're picking double blind or facing a counterpick from an opponent who can play anyone against you if you want to show why he doesn't break the CP system.

Oh, Well he is because he is the best character in the game.

Im not denying hes the best character in the game hes jut not banworthy imo.

Obviously the best character in each game would be the best choice in a double blind situation because they have More good matchups/less bad matchups than the rest of the cast.

This would be the same for every game however, the "best" character would be the best choice.

 

[Inui]

As I said before, NL has only lost to like, 2 MKs in the last 4 months. The pro-ban side inflated one of those loses (to Inui) to say Diddy doesn't do well in the match up. I've repeatedly stated that, looking at the whole spectrum of like 30 + for NL wins (versus 2 loses) Diddy does do well. This win for Diddy was just gravy. It also makes me happy that I brought this up in the podcast and I believe OS stated that M2K would not lose again to NL. So much for that.

They also asked about other players doing well. This past weekend LeThein (Diddy) got third-in Texas, the most MK dominated state in the country.

In M2K's defense, he sucks against Diddy from what I know and saw. He doesn't use bananas or glide tossing well enough to be able to properly fight a Diddy. I do think MK has a slight advantage, but it's very slight, and I think Diddy wins on FD. Diddy isn't a counter, but he helps prove that MK is pretty darn betable.

That tournament was in Oklahoma, not Texas. It had a lot of good Texas talent, though.


Anyways... People saying the burden of proof is on the anti-ban side are clearly wrong. MK is in the game and legal almost everywhere. It's up to pro-ban players to prove he's broken. My match-up stuff was argued against, but not well at all. I read that "on paper, Snake wins," which is clearly wrong. It's the other way around. On paper, MK's tiny 1 frame and 1 pixel advantages make him win, but reality makes Snake win.

 

[salaboB]

Oh, Well he is because he is the best character in the game.

Im not denying hes the best character in the game hes jut not banworthy imo.

Obviously the best character in each game would be the best choice in a double blind situation because they have More good matchups/less bad matchups than the rest of the cast.

This would be the same for every game however, the "best" character would be the best choice.

The best character in the game wouldn't always be. For instance, even the best character could have one matchup bad enough that selecting them from a double blind would be risky, and someone slightly worse might be better if their bad matchups were less commonly selected. Not the case for MK.

Also, even if the best character is the best choice on the initial double blind, they could suffer disadvantages on certain stages. MK really doesn't -- so that's what makes him the best option to respond to being CP'ed with, both the initial and then later CP responses. No matter what stage your opponent picks, you're fine to stay with MK.

 

[1048576]

Nvm: disreagrd