Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[brinboy789]

because if he was hands down THE BEST MK EVER, he wouldn't be getting beaten by DSF and ninjalink and there are a few others, but i don't sit around and watch youtube vids all day, and also i believe Azen has got one hell of a good MK also, but i've never seen the 2 play each other, im not saying M2K isn't rediculously good, but saying there is nobody else on his level is just not correct.

are you trying to say that M2k is perfect? oh cmon, he can lose several times. its not like he HAS to win. he wins most of the time, like 99.99% >_>.

and azen doesnt use MK. well he uses everybody, but he focuses on marth, peach, and lucario

 

[M15t3R E]

And yea, that is how I got the idea.

I just see pro-ban as grasping for straws, at least when it comes to Diddy. At first it was inexperience, then it was one loss to one MK despite having consistently won against MK's of both similar and higher skill. Then it was not enough Diddys. Now its that Diddy isn't winning tournaments even if he is beating MK, or that the Diddy who is winning claims the match up to not be in Diddy's favor (while similar claims, like M2K about Snake, are discredited because of evidence, this claim is accepted despite the evidence).

More evidence is mounting in favor of Diddy, something I've always claimed to happen, and I believe Diddy still has substantially further to improve as a character overall then the likes of MK.

Grasping for straws? I call the anti-ban side's argument that Snake has the advantage over MK as grasping for straws.

AZ, you were not at the C3 tournament- I was. M2K defeated NL in the loser's finals. Sorry if that hinders your quest for evidence showing that Diddy counters MK.

man the sbr calls the shots around here bra

No they don't. It's up to the TO's to ban MK or not.

 

[Ulevo]

Grasping for straws? I call the anti-ban side's argument that Snake has the advantage over MK as grasping for straws.

How is that so? One of the proclaimed (by the pro ban side) "reasons" for banning Meta Knight is that he has "no bad match ups". Proving or arguing that Snake contradicts that theory is not grasping at straws-- it's a direct response to the argument made. I don't know how you like to debate.

No they don't. It's up to the TO's to ban MK or not.

The majority of the community are like sheep. Do you notice how most of the TO's follow the regulations (well, most of them) that SBR sets out for the community? We once used the random pick system to decide stages. Once the SBR changed the rule set for that, everyone changed to the strike system. There were also plenty of tournaments in which the Infinite Dimensional Cape was allowed, prior to the release of the rule set, in which it was defined as a banned tactic.

The ban of Meta Knight is no different. Just because it is up to the individual TO to properly construct a tournament with the way they see fit, most of the rule sets everywhere are largely influenced by the SBR decisions. You cannot simply assume that Meta Knight will not be banned on a large scale if the SBR deems it the correct choice because the TO's will decide otherwise-- most of them won't. The opposite also holds true. That is why this was such an important decision to make. If it weren't for the impact SBR's decisions make on the community as a whole, there wouldn't be a worry on what the conclusion was. They simply would have said "Bah, let's ban him because he's annoying and winning all the time. It's fine, the TO's won't listen to us and decide for themselves anyway." That's simply not how it works.

 

[salaboB]

How is that so? One of the proclaimed (by the pro ban side) "reasons" for banning Meta Knight is that he has "no bad match ups". Proving or arguing that Snake contradicts that theory is not grasping at straws-- it's a direct response to the argument made. I don't know how you like to debate.

Tell you what: I'll disagree with pro-ban people saying he has no bad matchups.

The problem is, that doesn't prove that he does not break the CP system.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Tell you what: I'll disagree with pro-ban people saying he has no bad matchups.

The problem is, that doesn't prove that he does not break the CP system.

That also doesn't prove that he break's the counterpick system. If your pro-ban, the burden of proof is on you.

That being said, anti-banners: Prove that MK does not in fact break the counterpick system.

 

[Ulevo]

Tell you what: I'll disagree with pro-ban people saying he has no bad matchups.

The problem is, that doesn't prove that he does not break the CP system.

How does it not?

To counter pick, you need to have a personal or statistical advantage, be it by stage or by character match up.

If Snake has an advantage, that means by definition Meta Knight can in fact be counter picked. And this only includes one character in this example, not the other potential candidates that everyone on the pro ban side likes to ignore.

Would it stop from everyone preferring to use Meta Knight over another character? Of course not, as he's still the safest choice. But that isn't a case of Meta Knight breaking the counter pick system. That is an issue with character balance as a whole, which is a consistent flaw in all Smash games. Meta Knight is the best character, therefor he will always be the best choice most of the time. If you believe that is breaking the counter pick system, you are playing off of definitive terms rather than an actual argument.

You either argue Snake (or anyone else) doesn't have an edge on Meta Knight, or you argue he doesn't break the counter pick system. You can't have your cake and then eat ice cream.

 

[salaboB]

You either argue Snake (or anyone else) doesn't have an edge on Meta Knight, or you argue he doesn't break the counter pick system. You can't have your cake and then eat ice cream.

Sure I can, watch:

As long as MK's worst matchup is better than his CP's worst matchup, it's safer to pick MK for first round blind and whenever you might get CP'ed. Therefore, even with a bad matchup MK breaks the CP system.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

How does it not?

To counter pick, you need to have a personal or statistical advantage, be it by stage or by character match up.

If Snake has an advantage, that means by definition Meta Knight can in fact be counter picked. And this only includes one character in this example, not the other potential candidates that everyone on the pro ban side likes to ignore.

Would it stop from everyone preferring to use Meta Knight over another character? Of course not, as he's still the safest choice. But that isn't a case of Meta Knight breaking the counter pick system. That is an issue with character balance as a whole, which is a consistent flaw in all Smash games. Meta Knight is the best character, therefor he will always be the best choice most of the time. If you believe that is breaking the counter pick system, you are playing off of definitive terms rather than an actual argument.

You either argue Snake (or anyone else) doesn't have an edge on Meta Knight, or you argue he doesn't break the counter pick system. You can't have your cake and then eat ice cream.

Actually, this kinda proves that MK breaks the counterpick system. MK is pretty much always the safest choice, as you said, and thus, always the best character to pick to avoid being counterpicked.

EDIT: And icecream cake destroys you last point.

 

[M15t3R E]

Ulevo, your problem is that you (and Inui and others) keep making assumptions that Snake>MK when collective minds in the community disagree in their match-up threads and tournament results also do not indicate this. Therefore, until at least tournament results indicate otherwise, MK is known to have no bad match-ups and due to that, breaks the CP system.
The burden of proof is on the ANTI-BAN side, not the pro-ban side.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ulevo, your problem is that you (and Inui and others) keep making assumptions that Snake>MK when tournaments results do not indicate this. Therefore, until it indicates otherwise, MK is known to have no bad match-ups.
The burden of proof is on the ANTI-BAN side, not the pro-ban side.

This is true, even of Diddy Kong I imagine...?

 

[Mew2King]

I'm sorry but I really do not care about MK vs Sonic matchup, I didn't know Sonic counted as tourney-viable

me and dsf didn't really play it out at all, I just used random chars vs him since he wanted to split. In friendlies, I usually win 75-80% of our MK dittos (we probably had around 20-30 MK dittos before), and I do better vs most every other person, and when he wins them it's usually really close. We will both tell you I'm better, but he is very good, esp. at spacing F tilt. I've beaten him in Snake dittos too, although I feel his Snake got rusty since like, Hobo11.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'm sorry but I really do not care about MK vs Sonic matchup, I didn't know Sonic counted as tourney-viable

What are you talking about?

EDIT: I should sig that and post frequently in the Sonic boards...

 

[M15t3R E]

This is true, even of Diddy Kong I imagine...?

Correct. It is true even with Diddy Kong.

M2K came back and defeated NL in the loser's finals. I was at the C3 tournament- you guys weren't.

 

[illinialex24]

I'm sorry but I really do not care about MK vs Sonic matchup, I didn't know Sonic counted as tourney-viable

He does because he has an insane number of mains so he actually wins some tournaments. He isn't very good but I think he has the most number of mains besides MK and Snake. That is why I think he is too high even at his low position on the tier ranking.

Notice on the character threads, how he has 60,000 posts and the next highest have around 30,000.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

He does because he has an insane number of mains so he actually wins some tournaments. He isn't very good but I think he has the most number of mains besides MK and Snake. That is why I think he is too high even at his low position on the tier ranking.

Notice on the character threads, how he has 60,000 posts and the next highest have around 30,000.

Actually, three of his 6 wins are by a Lucario mainer, DJpwn I think?

 

[M15t3R E]

Notice on the character threads, how he has 60,000 posts and the next highest have around 30,000.

Don't half their posts have something to do with that steak meme?

 

[Mew2King]

diddy vs mk is at least even on neutrals

I'm starting to think MK beats Snake barely or it's even but I have only 1 reason for that - I took MK to a higher level than I've seen Snakes do to Snake. If it wasn't for that reason I probably wouldn't think that, and on-stage I know Snake wins. I'm also really good at the matchup and I have the most practice in that matchup by comparison to any other matchup, so I might change my opinion.

I currently think the top 5 in brawl singles (any order) is MK Snake Falco Diddy Olimar

 

[Ulevo]

Sure I can, watch:

As long as MK's worst matchup is better than his CP's worst matchup, it's safer to pick MK for first round blind and whenever you might get CP'ed. Therefore, even with a bad matchup MK breaks the CP system.

That isn't how it works. In order to break the counter pick system, Meta Knight has to completely defy it, and completely redefine it. In order to do so, he has to be free of any weakness, thus being free from being counter picked. Even if he is the best choice, it is irrelevant anyway. There will always be "the best choice" or the "safest option" in any game. Even if Meta Knight is gone, there will be a character next in line, fitting the description you just provided me. As long as Meta Knight has a weakness, he can be counter picked, regardless of how safe he is to use. That in turn means he's subjected to a counter pick, which means he is tied to the system; he is no longer free from it, he no longer defies it, he doesn't break it.

 

[brinboy789]

diddy vs mk is at least even on neutrals

I'm starting to think MK beats Snake barely or it's even but I have only 1 reason for that - I took MK to a higher level than I've seen Snakes do to Snake. If it wasn't for that reason I probably wouldn't think that, and on-stage I know Snake wins. I'm also really good at the matchup and I have the most practice in that matchup by comparison to any other matchup, so I might change my opinion.

I currently think the top 5 in brawl singles (any order) is MK Snake Falco Diddy Olimar

no G&W and D3? and olimar? hmm...interesting, i agree that olimar has untapped potential, but IMO G&W will outclass him. MK snake falco diddy g&W and D3 are top 6, not sure of which order IMO

 

[The Halloween Captain]

That isn't how it works. In order to break the counter pick system, Meta Knight has to completely defy it, and completely redefine it. In order to do so, he has to be free of any weakness, thus being free from being counter picked. Even if he is the best choice, it is irrelevant anyway. There will always be "the best choice" or the "safest option" in any game. Even if Meta Knight is gone, there will be a character next in line, fitting the description you just provided me. As long as Meta Knight has a weakness, he can be counter picked, regardless of how safe he is to use. That in turn means he's subjected to a counter pick, which means he is tied to the system; he is no longer free from it, he no longer defies it, he doesn't break it.

Doesn't MK completely redefine the counterpick system in exactly the way you described here?

 

[XienZo]

That isn't how it works. In order to break the counter pick system, Meta Knight has to completely defy it, and completely redefine it. In order to do so, he has to be free of any weakness, thus being free from being counter picked. Even if he is the best choice, it is irrelevant anyway. There will always be "the best choice" or the "safest option" in any game. Even if Meta Knight is gone, there will be a character next in line, fitting the description you just provided me. As long as Meta Knight has a weakness, he can be counter picked, regardless of how safe he is to use. That in turn means he's subjected to a counter pick, which means he is tied to the system; he is no longer free from it, he no longer defies it, he doesn't break it.

Just because non-broken characters can fit that description doesn't mean all characters that fall under that definition aren't broken.

 

[Mew2King]

counterpick system is stupid. I shouldn't be able to **** top snakes with my crappy falco by just CG to double spike repeatedly, but there's nothing you can do about it. As for stage counterpicks, most of those counterpicks are just trying to gay the other person with stage camping anyway, why would you want to win that way? it's gay.

btw Melee Fox on gay stages is WAYYYYYY gayer.

 

[HeroMystic]

counterpick system is stupid.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo, your problem is that you (and Inui and others) keep making assumptions that Snake>MK when collective minds in the community disagree in their match-up threads and tournament results also do not indicate this. Therefore, until at least tournament results indicate otherwise, MK is known to have no bad match-ups and due to that, breaks the CP system.
The burden of proof is on the ANTI-BAN side, not the pro-ban side.

Why? Because you state so? I asked you before, who are you again?

And who are these "collective minds" you speak of? The match up threads in most boards are garbage by comparison to say the Marth boards, and the Marth boards are not even entirely accurate (although they've very **** good). In order to make a decisive assumption on his match ups, you would need at least the quality of what the Marth boards possess. No one board does, and in fact, the Meta Knight boards are terrible.

You claim that "collective minds" disagree in the match up, yet you continue to completely disregard and utterly ignore the facts stated out by players significantly better than anyone one these boards to ever make match up threads. Believe it or not, despite how much you might dislike him, Inui is a decent player, and actually has experience playing Smash; significantly more than you. You can disagree with what he says, but to disregard him entirely just shows how ignorant you are, and he's not the only member you decide to conveniently ignore when it comes to your so called "results". Don't give me this crap.

Edit: On second thought, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a chance to prove your claim. Point me in the direction of these match up threads made by collective minds, and I will be happy to point out the "collective minds" that have compiled in each discussion (or rather, the lack there of).

 

[The Halloween Captain]

counterpick system is stupid.

In a perfect world. all characters would have an exactly even matchup in spite of radically different playstyles.

 

[Flayl]

one could argue meta knight is gay

edit: bah too late for the party, ignore this post

 

[Ulevo]

diddy vs mk is at least even on neutrals

I'm starting to think MK beats Snake barely or it's even but I have only 1 reason for that - I took MK to a higher level than I've seen Snakes do to Snake. If it wasn't for that reason I probably wouldn't think that, and on-stage I know Snake wins. I'm also really good at the matchup and I have the most practice in that matchup by comparison to any other matchup, so I might change my opinion.

I currently think the top 5 in brawl singles (any order) is MK Snake Falco Diddy Olimar

Maybe if you come to Canada and fight Ally, you might change your mind on the match up?

Note: I sincerely doubt it, but come to Canada anyway. We want the epic match.

Doesn't MK completely redefine the counterpick system in exactly the way you described here?

If you believe that he actually has no weakness, counter, or bad match up, then yes he does. (Then you need to ask yourself if whether or not breaking the counter pick system warrants a ban, that is the next step.)

I, along with others, sincerely disagree.

 

[1048576]

Why is Meta still winning so many tourneys if Snake counters him?

 

[MarKO X]

Why is Meta still winning so many tourneys if Snake counters him?

Because MK counters Snake as well. Why? How? What? Because he's MK.

And as for Sonic being tourney viable...

 

[The Real Inferno]

did M2K really have to say that about Sonic? Now they're all going to come to this topic >.<

 

[salaboB]

Why is Meta still winning so many tourneys if Snake counters him?

Because only a select few in the AN have any idea how to play Snake properly, apparently.

 

[Tenki]

did M2K really have to say that about Sonic? Now they're all going to come to this topic >.<

I'll try to throw in some decency before flaming fanboys come in lol

I'm sorry but I really do not care about MK vs Sonic matchup, I didn't know Sonic counted as tourney-viable.

Maybe lol.

Assuming that there aren't (m)any recurring Sonic mains winning tournaments (that is, the wins that Sonic gets are pretty much just in the first few tournaments that Sonic mains go to), the only reason any Sonic ever wins must be because noone ever cares to learn the vs Sonic matchup.

That, or Sonic mains must be on some godly skill level above everyone else they go up against.

I've been to and won two small (16-40[?] people) tourneys so far, and that's basically what I've seen. Either I was waaay better than the people I played against, or they didn't know anything about what I was doing ("OHH WTF HE CANCELLED HIS SPIN!!?!?" ; "WHAAT HOW COME HIS D-AIR DIDN'T HAVE LAG??"; "omg Sonic went into a ball, what's he gonna do now ?!?!! aaaah" [though that last one could be due to my mixups instead of matchup knowledge lol] )

Don't half their posts have something to do with that steak meme?

Possibly... yes.

 

[MarKO X]

Because only a select few in the AN have any idea how to play Snake properly, apparently.

And yet EVERYBODY (except me) knows how to play MK properly.

 

[brinboy789]

And yet EVERYBODY (except me) knows how to play MK properly.

you should. there are a bazillion threads on how to beat him.

 

[CO18]

Why is Meta still winning so many tourneys if Snake counters him?

BECAUSE FREAKING M2k and DSF MAIN HIM AND GET LIKE 80% OF HIS WINS BECAUSE THEY ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

JUST LIKE HOW M2k WAS STILL THE BEST EC PLAYER WHEN HE USED DEDEDE AND DSF WAS THE BEST WEST COAST PLAYER WHEN HE USED SNAKE.

I wish people would stfu about that.

 

[salaboB]

And yet EVERYBODY (except me) knows how to play MK properly.

No, MK is pretty much played badly too.

He still dominates.

BECAUSE FREAKING M2k and DSF MAIN HIM AND GET LIKE 80% OF HIS WINS BECAUSE THEY ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

JUST LIKE HOW M2k WAS STILL THE BEST EC PLAYER WHEN HE USED DEDEDE AND DSF WAS THE BEST WEST COAST PLAYER WHEN HE USED SNAKE.

-size.

You really think M2K and DSF are accounting for that many wins? No...

 

[Tenki]

edit for context:

Because only a select few in the AN have any idea how to play Snake properly, apparently.

And yet EVERYBODY (except me) knows how to play MK properly.

------------

you should. there are a bazillion threads on how to beat him.

I'm pretty sure he meant "play AS MK properly"

Because from what I've seen, most people don't know how to play characters properly. They learn like 3-4 effective movements/move usage, and somehow, they win.

 

[XienZo]

Why is Meta still winning so many tourneys if Snake counters him?

Countering Meta=/= Free tourney win.

Doing well against Falco, DDD, Snake, G&W, random other top/high tiers as well as MK equals tourney wins.

After being afraid of Snake for the first half of Brawl's metagame, our anti-Snake strategies are pretty well refined by now.

 

[CO18]

No, MK is pretty much played badly too.

He still dominates.

-size.

You really think M2K and DSF are accounting for that many wins? No...

Name 3 other mks that conistently win tourneys.

Go Go Go!

 

[salaboB]

Name 3 other mks that conistently win tourneys.

Go Go Go!

That's the thing, it doesn't matter if they're consistent -- All it takes is most of the wins for MK not being from M2K and DSF.

Go tally up how many were won by M2K and DSF and compare them to the win total.

What M2K and DSF really do is boost MK's rating because they win big tournaments with him. But winning a big tournament still only counts as one win. There are many other people contributing to MK having such a lead in number of victories.