Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[RDK]

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a player not to CG these characters. It is a rule that would be as easily enforced as the "no IDC" rule. Bum has done it in all his tourneys. It's been done in quite a few others around the states. No one has opposed it afaik. Why do you value this technique so much? What does it bring to the game? What does it bring to the character? Why is centralizing 5 matchups in the game around a grab acceptable?

This can go on forever. I've lost interest in this debate :<.

Because I just can't get around the fact that you could choose a different character.

Hypothetical situation:

First match in a set of 3. You go DK, I go ___ (random character). You beat my ___, so in the next match I counterpick with D3. I use the IDC, and shave 3 stocks off of you in doing so. Now you have the choice of the counterpick, or at the very least, the set ends in a double blind, as suggested before.

 

[Inui]

Wtf? Reflex is significantly better than Desu imo. I played both of them a lot at FAST and couldn't beat Reflex with any of my characters while I rocked Desu in Dedede dittos and with my real characters. Reflex also outplaced Desu by a substantial amount. 2nd place vs like 17th or some crap.

Did Desu improve dramatically recently?

 

[da K.I.D.]

The problem with the ease of use factor is that as humans, if it can be done it will be done. Wavedashing, SHFFLing and SHLs were more like a reflex than anything for me. I found Wobbling very difficult, but my brother could do it with even looking at the TV.


I'm quite sure that even if it took more technical skill than waveshining, those who wanted to make those matchups 90:10 would learn how.

i can also take that "we are human" excuse and use it against you.
as humans we are going to be disposed to playing characters that we like. because if we only played characters to win, than it would all be MK and ICs but since we are human, fun derived from playing and doing well with the characters we like the most outweighs the time and effort that it would take to perfect IC CGs

im a prime example of this, when alt grabbing was first discovered, i started trying it out, i could pull off the forward and the backward alternating version. but it was pretty hard, and i thought about how i would have to work like this to find the timing for every character and every stage. and you know what i did?

i said eff that, id rather put that time into sonic, because i like him more, where i really have no fun playing with the ICs.
not to mention the fact that once you perfect the grabs on every character and stage, its still rediculously hard to pull off, and doesnt auto win any of their matchups. where as for D3, no matter what character you main you can just take 5 minutes and learn a simple move to ensure that you never have to worry about those 5 characters again

so now we are back to what i said before

the reason this debate has even gotten to where it is is becausethe people against the ban have chosen to ignore the "ease of use factor"
if the ICGs were that easy to use than this game would have devolved into all IC dittos by now. if you want to go on theory and say that ease of use is not a factor and ignore the tourney results and eye witness accounts that stand contrary to that idea than so be it.
but the fact of the matter is that the ease of use is what will determine whether somebody chooses to main the ice climbers in order so they can infinite the entire cast, or whether they will spend less than 5 minutes learning a simple string just to make sure that they never lose to those 5 characters ever again

I think your last part is more accurate. The ease of learning is the bigger deal here than ease of use, I think. Any moron can learn the DDD infinite in 5 seconds and never lose to one of the Unlucky 5 again. It takes some real dedication to be able to infinite the cast with ice climbers on all the stages (I think you said this before, like 20 pages ago).

Ease of use isn't so much of a factor, but the fact that anyone can learn it in 5 seconds removes any tournament viability from those 5 characters, which trickles down into the use of other characters (characters those 5 have favorable matchups against), which trickles to OTHER characters, etc. The effect on the metagame isn't limited to those 5, and it's because it's so retardedly easy to beat the tar out of them with a totally ridiculous technique that anyone can use.

Ban ban ban.

 

[Justblaze647]

As I was sayig before you killed the last one. (are you able to delete it anyway?)

the main reason it isn't ban worthy is because it is restricted to those 6 characters. it isn't universal. if it were universal it would need to be proven that DDD cuold win with only the grab.

It doesn't break the game in short.

my sentiments exactly...

 

[CO18]

Wtf? Reflex is significantly better than Desu imo. I played both of them a lot at FAST and couldn't beat Reflex with any of my characters while I rocked Desu in Dedede dittos and with my real characters. Reflex also outplaced Desu by a substantial amount. 2nd place vs like 17th or some crap.

Did Desu improve dramatically recently?

Im not sure I just know hes considered the best in his state as is Reflex.
And their difference in their skill is not so much that these seemingly "broken" matchups as he says that are just as Bad as D3 vs the characters he can infinite is not so much for Reflex to turn it around.

I guarantee nobody using Mario/Samus/Luigi/Bowser/DK can beat me with me infiniting never mind me getting 3-0ed as Desu did by Reflex.

The point is , it is nowhere close to a broken matchup and matchup charts are made by a majority of uninformed people who don't go to tournaments who make these decisions off of theory.

 

[da K.I.D.]

This can go on forever. I've lost interest in this debate :<.

same here, people are pig headed and would rather go on theory and forum talk rather than, what does, has, and will happen when real people actually play the game

As said earlier, they can sometimes suffer from bias and be a little outdated but overall they are more reliable then people throwing around "100-0" non-sense.
you think its nonsence? that just shows that you dont know what its like to be in that situation. any D3 that can perform it correctly will win 100% of the time
Add in:

Remind me again why the Ice Climbers are any different when they can 0-death the whole cast with multiple chain grab variations? Again, the whole "cuz they're harder to do, durrrrrrr" is moot for compeitive gaming.

why?
it really isnt though, the fact that it takes more effort to do and is less fun than just sticking with whoever they main means than not too many people are going to bother playing them. add to that, the fact that when you perfect it, its still harder to start in the game to begin with.

Why does that say more about Reflex's skill level compared to Desu?
They are both the best players in their respective states and are on a similar skill level.
Sure reflex is probably a little better but not by much but since the matchup is so overwhelmingly in Dedede or MK's favor as matchup charts say, there should be no way his 2-week C.Falcon should be beating Desu's mains that hes used for an extremely long time

What 100:0 non-sense? I would guarantee 100% that my Dedede would manage to get 3 grabs vs those character in any match.

Again Ive also challenged anyone near my area or even wifi to prove me wrong and manage to not get grabbed 3 times with those characters or beat me.

I am also making this challenge to any one that is closer to my area than his.
i also completely agree with the rest of his state ment

and i can personally attest to the truthfulness of the post above this one

 

[BentoBox]

Because I just can't get around the fact that you could choose a different character.

Hypothetical situation:

First match in a set of 3. You go DK, I go ___ (random character). You beat my ___, so in the next match I counterpick with D3. I use the IDC, and shave 3 stocks off of you in doing so. Now you have the choice of the counterpick, or at the very least, the set ends in a double blind, as suggested before.

IDC = infinite dimensional cape ._.

Unless the first round is a double blind, you cannot go DK. If it is and you choose to go for DK and he doesn't pick D3, you are forced to change on the second round. Last match in the set? Once again, you flip a coin: if heads, you forfeit the game. If odds, you get a fair game. 5 characters lose any value in the competitive realm because you think it is unreasonable to ask one character to not infinite a bunch and use the myriads of tools in his possession to deal with them instead?

There is no point in even bringing up counterpicks. Nobody would be dumb enough to risk forfeiting the outcome of a game around the flip of a coin. So you effectively ruin 5 characters, for nothing. What is there to lose if we were to ban the technique? Nothing at all. So much for actually getting better at the game.

Put that on a libra.

 

[DanGR]

Im not sure I just know hes considered the best in his state as is Reflex.

Reflex is better. He's always better. >_<

 

[Inui]

Im not sure I just know hes considered the best in his state as is Reflex.
And their difference in their skill is not so much that these seemingly "broken" matchups as he says that are just as Bad as D3 vs the characters he can infinite is not so much for Reflex to turn it around.

I guarantee nobody using Mario/Samus/Luigi/Bowser/DK can beat me with me infiniting never mind me getting 3-0ed as Desu did by Reflex.

The point is , it is nowhere close to a broken matchup and matchup charts are made by a majority of uninformed people who don't go to tournaments who make these decisions off of theory.

The difference in their skill clearly was enough. Reflex is a god tier player possibly worthy of being in the same tier as M2K/Azen/DSF.

The infinite only completely cripples Bowser and DK. The other characters are much better off for many reasons.

 

[Fatmanonice]

same here, people are pig headed and would rather go on theory and forum talk rather than, what does, has, and will happen when real people actually play the game

why?
it really isnt though, the fact that it takes more effort to do and is less fun than just sticking with whoever they main means than not too many people are going to bother playing them. add to that, the fact that when you perfect it, its still harder to start in the game to begin with.

For starters, I use everyone and HAVE been in infinite situations. Like with Wario vs Yoshi, you have to be a lot more careful and learn your opponent's patterns a lot faster in order to survive. Sure, you lose stock because of it but if you lose all three/four stock in a match because of it, it's your fault and it's very obvious that your opponent took full advantage of your predictibility. Have I lost matches in these situations? Yes, most but not all when I was against people who were close to me in skill.

Again, whether the Ice Climbers infinites are harder to do is irrelevant, you still end up with a 0-death in the right hands. Also, did you really just argue that it's less fun? I can't possibly say any more regarding this post if you're going to throw around something as subjective as that...

 

[Iwan]

I am very. very. very surprised at the current outcome of this poll.

D3's infinite should not be banned for obvious reasons. It isn't game breaking. It isn't universal. Walk off stages should be banned, not D3's chain grab, and if you counter pick a stage like Delfino, just deal with it and be cautious.

 

[CO18]

I am very. very. very surprised at the current outcome of this poll.

D3's infinite should not be banned for obvious reasons. It isn't game breaking. It isn't universal. Walk off stages should be banned, not D3's chain grab, and if you counter pick a stage like Delfino, just deal with it and be cautious.

Why should walk-off stages be banned if Dedede's infinite should?

Its not universal as well. Bad logic.

 

[Zankoku]

Avoiding Yoshi's grabs is as far from comparable to avoiding Dedede's grabs as avoiding Ike's fsmash compared to Marth's.

 

[Matador]

The people complaining about the infinite should just go to tourneys where it's banned or host your own with it banned. Plenty of people ban it already at their tourneys, including most of EC where Boss and Bum reside. Some of the D3 mains (CO18 & Seibrik) realize how broken it is and want it gone, of course the mains of the unlucky 5 don't want it in, and many TOs don't want it in to reduce competition. Those tourneys do perfectly fine (obviously since Boss, Bum, Sliq, and Xyro do so well) and, from what I've seen, the D3 players could really care less.

The problem with this argument is that neither side is saying that it's not broken. It's clearly broken, because SBR already banned it when they banned stages with walls. That's not issue or what's being debated; it's the fact that you can't ban a move that only works on 5 characters when MANY other things in this game do the EXACT same thing. It's not about saying "well nobody uses them anyway" or "they weren't good without the infinite", it's because there's not enough characters affected, so you can still reliably counterpick.

If SBR were to actually go ahead and ban the infinite on those 5 to give them a better chance in the tourney scene; so many things would fall under the same criterion for ban that'd it be an inevitably slippery slope for characters like Fox who suffer from the same types of things to have their things banned. It's too risky for the community as a whole; we could easily end up like the Naruto GNT community if too many wrong choices are made. Everything ever banned serves as a precedent for future things, which is why Akuma and Melee is always brought up when they were (or weren't) issues YEARS ago; this infinite being banned would be brought up as well. "Well Akuma was technically beatable, but he was still banned" or "Shiek had a 0-death on Link in Melee, but that wasn't banned. Marth dominated for years yet he didn't get banned.". Can you imagine how incredibly bad every future argument about something being banned in this community will be with this infinite being brought up every 5 seconds?

That's where the TOs come into play. If TOs do what THEY feel is right, the community remains safe from the slippery slope since they didn't ban it themselves. Both sides get what they want, and no party is harmed by it. That is, if my understanding of the situation is correct; especially since I only know how SBR works from looking through the keyhole.

Until then, it's a bad matchup. Learn it, and work around it. REALLY try to not get grabbed, find a counterpick, find what works and what doesn't. I'm not sure about the other boards, but the Mario boards have discussed and found viable ways around it. Grab breaks, defensive tactics, strategies for safely getting close, etc. I suggest the rest of us do the same.

(my apologies for the wall)

 

[BentoBox]

Iwan please stop right now. It's like the anti-ban camp is just cycling through its members and every single one of them brings up the EXACT same points and force us to go through the exact same arguments countless times. This is getting ridiculous.

@Matador: Nothing else in this game is even comparable to D3's infinite. Fox getting ***** by Pikachu is NOT the same thing. Hell, even if D3 went 100:0 against luigi simply for being that much better, even without the infinite, I would still argue for its ban.

And I do not play a char that would be affected by the outcome of such a decision.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Avoiding Yoshi's grabs is as far from comparable to avoiding Dedede's grabs as avoiding Ike's fsmash compared to Marth's.

You apparently have never played against a Yoshi who's good at reverse grabs and any Yoshi main would tell you that Yoshi's running grab is craptastic in comparison.

Add in: Thank God, another good Mario main speaks. Thanks for the comments Matador.

 

[CO18]

The people complaining about the infinite should just go to tourneys where it's banned or host your own with it banned. Plenty of people ban it already at their tourneys, including most of EC where Boss and Bum reside. Some of the D3 mains (CO18 & Seibrik) realize how broken it is and want it gone, of course the mains of the unlucky 5 don't want it in, and many TOs don't want it in to reduce competition. Those tourneys do perfectly fine (obviously since Boss, Bum, Sliq, and Xyro do so well) and, from what I've seen, the D3 players could really care less.

The problem with this argument is that neither side is saying that it's not broken. It's clearly broken, because SBR already banned it when they banned stages with walls. That's not issue or what's being debated; it's the fact that you can't ban a move that only works on 5 characters when MANY other things in this game do the EXACT same thing. It's not about saying "well nobody uses them anyway" or "they weren't good without the infinite", it's because there's not enough characters affected, so you can still reliably counterpick.

If SBR were to actually go ahead and ban the infinite on those 5 to give them a better chance in the tourney scene; so many things would fall under the same criterion for ban that'd it be an inevitably slippery slope for characters like Fox who suffer from the same types of things to have their things banned. It's too risky for the community as a whole; we could easily end up like the Naruto GNT community if too many wrong choices are made. Everything ever banned serves as a precedent for future things, which is why Akuma and Melee is always brought up when they were (or weren't) issues YEARS ago; this infinite being banned would be brought up as well. "Well Akuma was technically beatable, but he was still banned" or "Shiek had a 0-death on Link in Melee, but that wasn't banned. Marth dominated for years yet he didn't get banned.". Can you imagine how incredibly bad every future argument about something being banned in this community will be with this infinite being brought up every 5 seconds?

That's where the TOs come into play. If TOs do what THEY feel is right, the community remains safe from the slippery slope since they didn't ban it themselves. Both sides get what they want, and no party is harmed by it. That is, if my understanding of the situation is correct; especially since I only know how SBR works from looking through the keyhole.

Until then, it's a bad matchup. Learn it, and work around it. REALLY try to not get grabbed, find a counterpick, find what works and what doesn't. I'm not sure about the other boards, but the Mario boards have discussed and found viable ways around it. Grab breaks, defensive tactics, strategies for safely getting close, etc. I suggest that's what the rest of us should do.

(my apologies for the wall)

I wholeheartedly believe we should get rid of all things that make impossible matchups such as infinites. Its not because its fair, its because it completely negates 5 characters as tournament viable and there is nothing you can do about it. That's the problem. Noone is trying to just change bad matchups because they will exist such the case that all these matchups would still be in Dedede's favor without the infinite. Its just to get rid of broken matchups.

As for the Mario boards, its basically an impossible matchups and the strategies may work vs someone who can't do it perfectly(which is easy just setting c-stick to grab).

Im actually gonna issue out a wifi challenge to the 5 boards to prove to me the matchups aren't 100:0 which would be done by any one person beating me in any one match regardless of what occurs.

 

[Inui]

PRiDE grabs everyone a lot with Yoshi.

Atomsk is a top Dedede that has been against the infinites for a long time.

 

[XienZo]

You apparently have never played against a Yoshi who's good at reverse grabs and any Yoshi main would tell you that Yoshi's running grab is craptastic in comparison.

Lets put it this way,

Yoshi is to DDD
as
G&W bair is to MK's tornado

One's pretty good. The other is deadly.

 

[Iwan]

Why should walk-off stages be banned if Dedede's infinite should?

Its not universal as well. Bad logic.

I said D3's infinite shouldn't be banned, lol. Not that is should.

 

[manhunter098]

Avoiding Yoshi's grabs is as far from comparable to avoiding Dedede's grabs as avoiding Ike's fsmash compared to Marth's.

Actually, Yoshi's pivot grab is very good. Best in the game by a long shot in my opinion, its fast, it has range, of course its more situational than a normal grab, but Yoshi can still effectively grab other characters.

 

[Iwan]

Iwan please stop right now. It's like the anti-ban camp is just cycling through its members and every single one of them brings up the EXACT same points and force us to go through the exact same arguments countless times. This is getting ridiculous.

@Matador: Nothing else in this game is even comparable to D3's infinite. Fox getting ***** by Pikachu is NOT the same thing. Hell, even if D3 went 100:0 against luigi simply for being that much better, even without the infinite, I would still argue for its ban.

And I do not play a char that would be affected by the outcome of such a decision.

Why are you being so hostile....I didn't say anything mean/offensive to anyone.

chill out :/

 

[CO18]

I said D3's infinite shouldn't be banned, lol. Not that is should.

My bad. My question is Why should Walk-off stages be banned and Dedede's infinite shouldn't?

Neither is universal.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I am very. very. very surprised at the current outcome of this poll.

D3's infinite should not be banned for obvious reasons. It isn't game breaking. It isn't universal. Walk off stages should be banned, not D3's chain grab, and if you counter pick a stage like Delfino, just deal with it and be cautious.

I'm very, very surprised at the current outcome of this poll as well.

D3's infinite should be banned for obvious reasons. It is game-breaking in the matchups in which it can be used. The majority of people against the ban don't actually play D3 or the characters he infinities. The majority of the players here who are pros think the standing grab should be banned. The majority of people who play characters that can be infinite chained are for the ban. The majority of the D3 players here are for the ban. The majority of people against the ban are in no direct way affected by the outcome. It hurts the metagame. It puts to much emphasis on the counterpick system, giving it significantly more priority than player skill in the matches in which it comes into play. It affects not just one or two characters with exceptionally odd physics, like most non-IC infinities, but six.

 

[Cirno]

i can also take that "we are human" excuse and use it against you.
as humans we are going to be disposed to playing characters that we like. because if we only played characters to win, than it would all be MK and ICs but since we are human, fun derived from playing and doing well with the characters we like the most outweighs the time and effort that it would take to perfect IC CGs

Sadly, fun isn't a necessary component in developing a competitive scene. And the "we are human" point I brought up was in reference to potential that can't be argued. What you are using is more preference. One can easily gain something they want(Money) doing something they don't like (Using MK).

The only way it could degrade into only two characters being used despite other character viability is if everyone played strictly to the "Play to Win Mindset". Luckily for those of us that enjoy variety it isn't like that which is still fine for the competitive scene. Players that choose anything but best should be aware and understand what their chances are, what they could have been, and the skill they have they need to factor in.

im a prime example of this, when alt grabbing was first discovered, i started trying it out, i could pull off the forward and the backward alternating version. but it was pretty hard, and i thought about how i would have to work like this to find the timing for every character and every stage. and you know what i did?

i said eff that, id rather put that time into sonic, because i like him more, where i really have no fun playing with the ICs.

That's very nice. I would love to see more Sonic as I think he has a lot of untapped potential. But if you are choosing Sonic over Ice Climbers you aren't giving yourself the best chance to win. You know this. You simply prefer fun over a better chance at winning. By definition a scrub, but we really need to stop using this term with negative connotations as we have some very competitive scrubs.

not to mention the fact that once you perfect the grabs on every character and stage, its still rediculously hard to pull off, and doesnt auto win any of their matchups.

Ridiculously hard for you to pull off perhaps.I'm guilty as well, though I wouldn't say ridiculous. I doubt Melee1 has as much if any difficulty performing them. Even there however,ease does not have much value in the sense that if it can be done it will.

I haven't seen anyone IDC with MK a whole 7 minutes or even 2-3 coming out to rest their fingers, but I know and we know it can be done.

And there are no autowins in Brawl. The only auto win I have ever seen is F1 in Mugen, and even he has counters.

If we can say it's possible to IDC a whole match. Why can't we also say "don't get grabbed this match" or even more realistic "Don't get grabbed three times this match."

If we factor ease in are we brining the IDC back because it's hard for some people to do it for 7 minutes?

where as for D3, no matter what character you main you can just take 5 minutes and learn a simple move to ensure that you never have to worry about those 5 characters again

so now we are back to what i said before

90:10 matchups shouldn't have you worried. Players should. The matchup numbers we create are supposed to represent the match at the highest levels of play if you can get a grab on Ripple trying not to be grabbed with little to no effort then he is obviously not a good representative of the highest levels of play with DK and would have lost no matter who you picked.

( No disrespect to Ripple in any sense)

 

[Matador]

I wholeheartedly believe we should get rid of all things that make impossible matchups such as infinites. Its not because its fair, its because it completely negates 5 characters as tournament viable and there is nothing you can do about it. That's the problem. Noone is trying to just change bad matchups because they will exist such the case that all these matchups would still be in Dedede's favor without the infinite. Its just to get rid of broken matchups.

You're repeating yourself, I know it's broken. We all know it's broken and that it makes for ridiculously hard matchups for those 5. But my point is that if you DO ban it, what's to stop the Fox boards (I apologize, you guys are the only ones I can think of) from swarming Tactical and making billions of threads using this banning of this particular technique as a premise for getting what they want? You have to look at the big picture, it has to be TRULY broken for it to be banned, or we're making a big mistake. If there was no counterpick system, it would be broken, but it's there. That's why it won't be banned by SBR.

That's why TOs need to do it.

As for the Mario boards, its basically an impossible matchups and the strategies may work vs someone who can't do it perfectly(which is easy just setting c-stick to grab).

So we should just throw our hands up and give up right? You're faulting us for trying to find a way around getting grabbed by D3? What are you arguing?

Im actually gonna issue out a wifi challenge to the 5 boards to prove to me the matchups aren't 100:0 which would be done by any one person beating me in any one match regardless of what occurs.

Go for it. I'd rather do it offline though.

Edit @ Bento:

@Matador: Nothing else in this game is even comparable to D3's infinite. Fox getting ***** by Pikachu is NOT the same thing. Hell, even if D3 went 100:0 against luigi simply for being that much better, even without the infinite, I would still argue for its ban.

And I do not play a char that would be affected by the outcome of such a decision.

Did you just hopscotch over my argument and start yours over again? Clever, but I caught you.

First, Pika ***** Fox. Shiek about as bad. ZSS infinites him. Are you trying to tell me that they wouldn't call for a ban? Are you trying to tell me that when they DO, that "It's not as bad as the infinite on the 5" will deter them from bringing up this ban as an argument; especially since they'd be completely correct in suggesting it is?

Second, I'm not sure about the other 5, but the only way D3 beats Mario is the infinite. Other than that, he's not completely outclassed like Fox is vs Pika without the CG. Add to the fact that Mario has a decent defensive game, can break out till higher %, and that he doesn't do bad vs D3 without the infinite, and you've got a winnable matchup. Fox is beaten in every way vs Pika. It's AT LEAST just as bad.

Third, if you'd ban D3 vs Luigi because D3's better, then you're what many communities like to call "ban-happy". That is completely ridiculous. Not only would that probably never happen, but it'd be an unwarranted ban and hard to enforce.

Player 1: I use Luigi.

Player 2: well I use D3.

Player 1: You gotta switch. I can't win that ****.

Lastly, I do play a character affected by the decision. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I'm very, very surprised at the current outcome of this poll as well.

D3's infinite should be banned for obvious reasons. It is game-breaking in the matchups in which it can be used. The majority of people against the ban don't actually play D3 or the characters he infinities. The majority of the players here who are pros think the standing grab should be banned. The majority of people who play characters that can be infinite chained are for the ban. The majority of the D3 players here are for the ban. The majority of people against the ban are in no direct way affected by the outcome. It hurts the metagame. It puts to much emphasis on the counterpick system, giving it significantly more priority than player skill in the matches in which it comes into play. It affects not just one or two characters with exceptionally odd physics, like most non-IC infinities, but six.

.....so if the "majority" of smashboard users agree that you should be banned from smashboards, they are correct?
please do not bring out popularity in this. argue your opinion with FACTS, not "well everybody else seems to think it should be banned..."

EDIT: and there are other broken matchups as well in brawl, im sure most of you know. fox vs. pika is a prime example. are you guys saying that because it is harder to do (more time to learn, but not actually hard like IC's grabs), it should be allowed?
as for my own opinion, i'm quite torn about deciding. i used D3 as a secondary before and know the broken-ness of this technique. this makes serveral characters unviable in competitive play. however, this doesn't cause over-centralizing or hurts the metagame much because it affects only those characters. it's not like, pick D3 or lose.

alos, your last point kinda contradicts yourself, so if this technique only affected 1 character, it wouldn't be ban-worthy?

 

[BentoBox]

Why are you being so hostile....I didn't say anything mean/offensive to anyone.

chill out :/

How was I being hostile, I even said please xD.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lets put it this way,

Yoshi is to DDD
as
G&W bair is to MK's tornado

One's pretty good. The other is deadly.

That's not the point. One grab from Yoshi and Wario is SOL especially if the Wario has already used his second jump. With that being said, it's basically the same situation.

 

[XienZo]

You're repeating yourself, I know it's broken. We all know it's broken and that it makes for ridiculously hard matchups for those 5. But my point is that if you DO ban it, what's to stop the Fox boards (I apologize, you guys are the only ones I can think of) from swarming Tactical and making billions of threads using this banning of this particular technique as a premise for getting what they want? You have to look at the big picture, it has to be TRULY broken for it to be banned, or we're making a big mistake. If there was no counterpick system, it would be broken, but it's there. That's why it won't be banned by SBR.

Cuz anyone can set c-stick to grab and then side-B, side-B, side-B, side-B.... side-B, R, A, A, Down, c-stick, A, Down, repeat.

Not anyone can use Pikachu, Shiek, or ZSS as effectively, since Fox can also punish them fairly well if they've only been using them for 3 hours.

That's not the point. One grab from Yoshi and Wario is SOL especially if the Wario has already used his second jump. With that being said, it's basically the same situation.

Can anyone just pick up Yoshi in a few minutes cuz they heard their opponent was gonna use Wario? Or would the be better off using their main?

See, the problem is people who just use DDD for a few hours SOLELY for the five just to win more, or the secondaries and tertiaries. DDD mains are not a problem; they're a tolerable number, and you'll know when you see one. The problem is that the random Olimar main you were gonna crush with Luigi suddenly uses DDD that he's been practicing with for a few hours.

You simply can't "abuse" Yoshi in the same way; he's too hard to simply pick up.

 

[CO18]

You're repeating yourself, I know it's broken. We all know it's broken and that it makes for ridiculously hard matchups for those 5. But my point is that if you DO ban it, what's to stop the Fox boards (I apologize, you guys are the only ones I can think of) from swarming Tactical and making billions of threads using this banning of this particular technique as a premise for getting what they want? You have to look at the big picture, it has to be TRULY broken for it to be banned, or we're making a big mistake. If there was no counterpick system, it would be broken, but it's there. That's why it won't be banned by SBR.

That's why TOs need to do it.

So we should just throw our hands up and give up right? You're faulting us for trying to find a way around getting grabbed by D3? What are you arguing?

Go for it. I'd rather do it offline though.

I'm not faulting you for trying to find a way.

Just imo There is no way around it which is why it should be banned imo no matter what you do.

In regards it TRULY is broken because it does create impossible matchups.

It is indeed different than a Fox players situation.

Thats just a long chaingrab to 75%. Pikachu can get 75% on many other characters too almost as easily with a 0-60% cg on characters such as D3 that end in an almost guaranteed nair afterward for a total of 75%ish.
Falco too, a full cg to spike on ddd and snake is roughly 75%.
Noone is arguing about that.
Its not an infinite and does not cause a broken matchup. Zss has her 0-75% cg on fox too.
Yet Fl's best Fox 2 stocked Fl's best Zss twice in a tourney on saturday.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Cuz anyone can set c-stick to grab and then side-B, side-B, side-B, side-B.... side-B, R, A, A, Down, c-stick, A, Down, repeat.

Not anyone can use Pikachu, Shiek, or ZSS as effectively, since Fox can also punish them fairly well if they've only been using them for 3 hours.

Are you trying to say that Pikachu's dthrow chain grab on Fox/Wolf or that Shiek's ftilt lock are hard to do in comparison? For one, no, they are not and two, how hard they are to do is moot.

*looks at other post*

If anything, King Dedede has an average learning curve and there are easier characters to learn. Also, does it really matter if Yoshi's not your main if you have a decent amount of knowledge of the game and know how to grab? Really, all you need is one grab and then you can do an infinite into a grab released usmash to take one stock. If you want to make the "but it's harder to do arguement", it really isn't. Except for DK, King Dedede's infinite requires you to time pummels while Yoshi's/ZSS's do not and neither does Pikachu's dthrow chain grab. With this being said, you're not going to very many people who can just pick King Dedede and instantly get it except with DK who's is laughably easy.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Cuz anyone can set c-stick to grab and then side-B, side-B, side-B, side-B.... side-B, R, A, A, Down, c-stick, A, Down, repeat.

Not anyone can use Pikachu, Shiek, or ZSS as effectively, since Fox can also punish them fairly well if they've only been using them for 3 hours.



Can anyone just pick up Yoshi in a few minutes cuz they heard their opponent was gonna use Wario? Or would the be better off using their main?

See, the problem is people who just use DDD for a few hours SOLELY for the five just to win more, or the secondaries and tertiaries. DDD mains are not a problem; they're a tolerable number, and you'll know when you see one. The problem is that the random Olimar main you were gonna crush with Luigi suddenly uses DDD that he's been practicing with for a few hours.

You simply can't "abuse" Yoshi in the same way; he's too hard to simply pick up.

but if time to learn is the most important (i know wierdly worded. what i mean is that you get most improvement for your time spent) wouldn't everyone just pick MK? think about it. you and a guy both practice 1 hour. he does with mario, you do it with MK, now, considering you both know alot about brawl already and are around the same level, it is obviously that MK is more rewarding.

 

[Cirno]

Why are you being so hostile....I didn't say anything mean/offensive to anyone.

chill out :/

Bento, CO18 and several others have been arguing and repeating points since the begining of the thread.

Though necessary due to speed at which we compile responses,spam, and ect, it is a hassle to have to do so.

Though, I don't agree with the negativity either, I can understand it.

My bad. My question is Why should Walk-off stages be banned and Dedede's infinite shouldn't?

Neither is universal.

Doesn't it cause overcentralization on a strategy?

Being that matches would devolve into who could setup their off-stage push move first.
DeDeDe is often thought of the reason because his chaingrabs are the easiest to set up.

Meaning he has an advantage over those who have to set up locks that he can chaingrab, creating over-centralization on one character.

That's what I think anyway.
Am I wrong?

 

[Iwan]

How was I being hostile, I even said please xD.

lol i duno you sounded hostile

As for the topic, doesn't the counterpick system make this unbannable? Being that it doesn't work on that many characters, can't you just counterpick to another character who matches up well with D3, or even just a character you play well with that doesn't get infinited? If not, aren't you just being stubborn by saying "this one character i want to play as gets ***** in this particular match up. Oh boo. Let's ban this tactic instead of CPing another character to play in this particular match up.".....?

No hostile remarks, children. Debate nicely please

And what about the ice climbers? They can **** anyone with chain grabs, and yet the advice against them is "don't get grabbed".

Why is no one arguing for that to be banned, because it's hard to do consistently? Or because it's semi-situational (you need both nana and popo)? Not to get off topic, just curious

 

[XienZo]

Are you trying to say that Pikachu's dthrow chain grab on Fox/Wolf or that Shiek's ftilt lock are hard to do in comparison? For one, no, they are not and two, how hard they are to do is moot.

Looks like I have to pull up my argument on how hard things are IS important from page 13.

I believe that the infinites should be banned because they make the characters unviable.

HOWEVER, this is not JUST because they have a 100:0 against others, since the EASE OF USE seperates his INFINITES from Fox's sucky match-ups.

I know it has been argued time and time again that ease of use makes no matter in the competitive scene. I disagree. Ease of use is a factor in EFFECIENCY in learning it. The more efficent it is, the more likely people are to learn something they would otherwise not. Here's an example of DDD's infinite vs Pika owning Fox.

You're maining some random character, and you want to learn how to win as MANY matches as possible in the LEAST amount of time. Now, 100:0 match-ups are a quick way to win more matches. So, you look into 2 possibilities: Pika for Fox and DDD for the 5.

Pika counters Fox because of his entire playstyle; you would need to learn how to CG, how to QAC, how to get in a kill move, how to gimp, and Pikachu's playstyle in general in order to obtain that 100:0 matchup. You would have to spend a few days at minumum to practice all of these to gain that 90:10 matchup. Its basically a few days to win all your matchups for one character. HOWEVER, if you had spent that time practicing with your main, you could have gotten good enough to win more matches in GENERAL! Learning to play Pika is simply a lose-lose.

DDD counters the 5 because of his CG; you just need to learn to spam waddles till they come close, then its just cstick grab, pummel, down throw, repeat. It'll take you a few hours, maybe a day if you're super slow. You end up spending only a FEW hours to counter ALL matches with FIVE characters. This is MUCH more matches won than if you had just kept practicing with your main; its in YOUR FAVOR to learn DDD.

Now, this is a generaliation; some people might have a natural affinity for Pika, some people might still get 3 stocked as DDD against Mario. There are also other cases of 90:10, but they too, often are not worth the time, even if they only take a few hours to learn; DDD countering FIVE characters is what really makes it effecient. However, for MOST people, the only choice that would HELP them is to learn DDD JUST enough to win every match against the five. Therefore, assuming most people are smart; NEARLY EVERYONE should know how to use DDD well enough to counter the five, while BARELY ANYONE would learn Pika SOLELY to counter Fox.

Therefore, DDD's infinite simply changes the metagame and makes characters unviable like no other technique does.

TL;DR, Ease of use>more matches won for less time training>more effeciency>most people learning it>universal use>the five always being CPed 10:0>5 unviable characters.

Also, its not as easy to get that f-tilt, grab, or d-smash in. If you've only been using it for few hours, you'll probably get punished.

Any more time spent practicing it and the effeciency goes down, making you win less matches.

but if time to learn is the most important (i know wierdly worded. what i mean is that you get most improvement for your time spent) wouldn't everyone just pick MK? think about it. you and a guy both practice 1 hour. he does with mario, you do it with MK, now, considering you both know alot about brawl already and are around the same level, it is obviously that MK is more rewarding.

Oh, but look at MK's matchups. He doesn't have as much **** matchups as other characters do.

In other words, it could end up that

MK win 55% of his "bad matches" (lets say on half of matches) and 60% of the time against "good matchups"
A Snake might win 40% on "bad matchups", but he could win 75% on "good matchups"

Its not only how many GOOD matchups you have, its also how GOOD your matchups are.

Of course, if you could prove that MK DOES have **** matchups, then he would be banned.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

.....so if the "majority" of smashboard users agree that you should be banned from smashboards, they are correct?
please do not bring out popularity in this. argue your opinion with FACTS, not "well everybody else seems to think it should be banned..."

EDIT: and there are other broken matchups as well in brawl, im sure most of you know. fox vs. pika is a prime example. are you guys saying that because it is harder to do (more time to learn, but not actually hard like IC's grabs), it should be allowed?
as for my own opinion, i'm quite torn about deciding. i used D3 as a secondary before and know the broken-ness of this technique. this makes serveral characters unviable in competitive play. however, this doesn't cause over-centralizing or hurts the metagame much because it affects only those characters. it's not like, pick D3 or lose.

alos, your last point kinda contradicts yourself, so if this technique only affected 1 character, it wouldn't be ban-worthy?

Kinda. You see, there is a difference between one character having an infinity over another, and a character having any infinity over six. The difference is that the one character implies an abuse of physics that the user should know about and is somewhat specialized to a single matchup. 5 or 6 implies that there is something fundamentally broken about the character that can do the infinity, and it should be handled. The IC's don't count because while their chain grab is broken, pulling it off is part of their meta-game, and all players should be aware of the IC infinities.

Besides, those were many of the reasons the tactic should be banned. I think the best reasons for the ban is that it harms the metagame by breaking the counterpick system. The counterpick system was intended to aid matchups, not determin them in advance.

Frankly, I am tired of users who don't play any character involved saying that D3 should keep his infinities not because it's not broken, but because D3 should be a counterpick for the characters he can do it on. The real point of bringing in the majority is to point out that way to many people who are vocal here should really back off, as it doesn't ****ing affect them in any way whatsoever, except for the fact that they may have to face more DKs and Luigis if the tactic is banned.

And no, not being affected by the decision doesn't make you neutral. It means you are butchering the debate away from what should be decided by players who actually have experience with the tactic, and know first hand how broken it is or isn't.

 

[CO18]

Bento, CO18 and several others have been arguing and repeating points since the begining of the thread.

Though necessary due to speed at which we compile responses,spam, and ect, it is a hassle to have to do so.

Though, I don't agree with the negativity either, I can understand it.





Doesn't it cause overcentralization on a strategy?

Being that matches would devolve into who could setup their off-stage push move first.
DeDeDe is often thought of the reason because his chaingrabs are the easiest to set up.

Meaning he has an advantage over those who have to set up locks that he can chaingrab, creating over-centralization on one character.

That's what I think anyway.
Am I wrong?

Not everyone has an off-stage push move. Dedede has the only chaingrab that is inescapable regardless of percent.
The point is that walk-off stages were banned because it put characters into bad positions that are extremely hard to overcome in matchups(Dedede vs chaingrabble characters being one) so they removed the fact that 1 grab= 1 stock.

Dedede's infinite is the same thing.

Neither of them are universal.

There is no reason why one should be banned and the other should not.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You know what? Forget it.

 

[Cirno]

Not everyone has an off-stage push move. Dedede has the only chaingrab that is inescapable regardless of percent.
The point is that walk-off stages were banned because it put characters into bad positions that are extremely hard to overcome in matchups(Dedede vs chaingrabble characters being one) so they removed the fact that 1 grab= 1 stock.

Dedede's infinite is the same thing.

Neither of them are universal.

There is no reason why one should be banned and the other should not.

I thought everyone could do a footstool to jab lock combo.
O:

I don't think walk-offs were banned because of extremely hard to overcome matchups but the fact that leaving them changes a stage's focus onto DeDeDe.


Like I said though-- I think, could you be as kind as to link or quote the official reason if I can't find it?