Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[TechnoMonster]

Yuna ignoring everything I posted, being completely ******** about statistics, failing at analogies AND poker, etc.

Well, thanks for being ********.

 

[XienZo]

Well, thanks for being ********.

Ummm... thanks for responding to a post 30 pages ago?

 

[CO18]

I thought everyone could do a footstool to jab lock combo.
O:

I don't think walk-offs were banned because of extremely hard to overcome matchups but the fact that leaving them changes a stage's focus onto DeDeDe.


Like I said though-- I think, could you be as kind as to link or quote the official reason if I can't find it?

I don't believe there is a link or a quote to an official reason. I could be wrong.

Why does the stage focusing on Dedede have to do anything.

You could simply counterpick a character that couldn't be chaingrabbed such as the argument here as to why Dedede's infinite shouldn't be banned.

There is no reason why one should be banned while the other couldn't.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Kinda. You see, there is a difference between one character having an infinity over another, and a character having any infinity over six. The difference is that the one character implies an abuse of physics that the user should know about and is somewhat specialized to a single matchup. 5 or 6 implies that there is something fundamentally broken about the character that can do the infinity, and it should be handled. The IC's don't count because while their chain grab is broken, pulling it off is part of their meta-game, and all players should be aware of the IC infinities.

Besides, those were many of the reasons the tactic should be banned. I think the best reasons for the ban is that it harms the metagame by breaking the counterpick system. The counterpick system was intended to aid matchups, not determin them in advance.

Frankly, I am tired of users who don't play any character involved saying that D3 should keep his infinities not because it's not broken, but because D3 should be a counterpick for the characters he can do it on. The real point of bringing in the majority is to point out that way to many people who are vocal here should really back off, as it doesn't ****ing affect them in any way whatsoever, except for the fact that they may have to face more DKs and Luigis if the tactic is banned.

And no, not being affected by the decision doesn't make you neutral. It means you are butchering the debate away from what should be decided by players who actually have experience with the tactic, and know first hand how broken it is or isn't.

....read my post again. i actually DO have experience with D3 and these infinites and i realized that they are, in fact, broken.
no, just because my icon is falco doesn't mean i can't use other characters. and no, i don't agree that other characters users should "back off" because this decision may affect them. just because they don't main someone doesn't mean they don't use them.

instead, i think the "if it was only 1 character affected, it's not ban-worthy" is stupid. the pro-ban's whole argument is that it makes characters unviable and matchups unwinnable. how is it any less broken if it only made 1 matchup unwinnable?

 

[Matador]

Cuz anyone can set c-stick to grab and then side-B, side-B, side-B, side-B.... side-B, R, A, A, Down, c-stick, A, Down, repeat.

Not anyone can use Pikachu, Shiek, or ZSS as effectively, since Fox can also punish them fairly well if they've only been using them for 3 hours.

I think tilting forward and A with Shiek is a bit easier than remembering that cluster**** of commands. Either way, can't you mash out of the infinite at lower %? You can't mash out of being screwed and outclassed in every way vs Pika like Fox in that matchup.

What about Falco vs Wolf and Link who has a Dthrow chain -> Dair in which you can't recover from? Isn't it just as bad?

What about Sonic vs MK which is just ridiculously hard? This is obviously not as bad, but where do we draw the line?

Those 5 aren't THAT special. Other characters have serious problems too.

I'm not faulting you for trying to find a way.

Just imo There is no way around it which is why it should be banned imo no matter what you do.

In regards it TRULY is broken because it does create impossible matchups.

It is indeed different than a Fox players situation.

Thats just a long chaingrab to 75%. Pikachu can get 75% on many other characters too almost as easily with a 0-60% cg on characters such as D3 that end in an almost guaranteed nair afterward for a total of 75%ish.
Falco too, a full cg to spike on ddd and snake is roughly 75%.
Noone is arguing about that.
Its not an infinite and does not cause a broken matchup. Zss has her 0-75% cg on fox too.
Yet Fl's best Fox 2 stocked Fl's best Zss twice in a tourney on saturday.

CO18, I'm trying to get you to understand. I know it's broken, even SBR realized it, that's why they got rid of stages with walls which required a setup to infinite. Of course they realize that this is about 10 times worse for those 5. That's not my point. Banning this when there's a way around it (counterpicking) is NOT a good move as leaders of the Smash community. At least in the banning MK issue, there's the argument that you can't really counterpick vs MK, just pick characters that do better than others. That's not the case here, you can actually counterpick a D3 player.

From my understanding, Pika completely ***** Fox because his attacks have more range and priority overall and completely shuts him down. The CG was just salt in the wound. That matchup is still a terrible one.

The fact of the matter is that it's NOT impossible to win, and that you can always counterpick. Further, we can't just arbitrarily draw the line on what's "too good" and what's bannable and what's not. It's too risky.

I also heard BUM went a whole match vs a D3 without getting grabbed once a long while ago.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Ummm... thanks for responding to a post 30 pages ago?

It was earlier today. <3 revenge, I'm good now. BTW Yuna's Peach was not good in melee.

 

[Inui]

I don't understand why people would either want DK and Bowser to not be viable at all or why people think they're somehow viable with the infinite allowed.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't understand why people would either want DK and Bowser to not be viable at all or why people think they're somehow viable with the infinite allowed.

Most characters aren't viable. Example, Fox.

 

[CO18]

I think tilting forward and A with Shiek is a bit easier than remembering that cluster**** of commands. Either way, can't you mash out of the infinite at lower %? You can't mash out of being screwed and outclassed in every way vs Pika like Fox in that matchup.

What about Falco vs Wolf and Link who has a Dthrow chain -> Dair in which you can't recover from? Isn't it just as bad?

What about Sonic vs MK which is just ridiculously hard? This is obviously not as bad, but where do we draw the line?

Those 5 aren't THAT special. Other characters have serious problems too.


CO18, I'm trying to get you to understand. I know it's broken, even SBR realized it, that's why they got rid of stages with walls which required a setup to infinite. Of course they realize that this is about 10 times worse for those 5. That's not my point. Banning this when there's a way around it (counterpicking) is NOT a good move as leaders of the Smash community. At least in the banning MK issue, there's the argument that you can't really counterpick vs MK, just pick characters that do better than others. That's not the case here, you can actually counterpick a D3 player.

From my understanding, Pika completely ***** Fox because his attacks have more range and priority overall and completely shuts him down. The CG was just salt in the wound. That matchup is still a terrible one.

The fact of the matter is that it's NOT impossible to win, and that you can always counterpick. Further, we can't just arbitrarily draw the line on what's "too good" and what's bannable and what's not. It's too risky.

I also heard BUM went a whole match vs a D3 without getting grabbed once a long while ago.

I don't understand why should such stages such as Green Greens or Shadow Moses are banned and this would not be.
You could always "counterpick" a character that can't be chaingrabbed.
Its not a solid argument in my opinion.
Basing things off the counterpick system as a whole is not a valid argument in my opinion.

 

[CO18]

Most characters aren't viable. Example, Fox.

Fox (11 top8, 8 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins) - 51.0

Fox is viable. He's a good character without any broken matchups.
There are no matchups of his that are impossible to win , his toughest is pikachu where an opponent still has to have knowledge of the character and able to maneuver and execute besides his long chaingrab which many other characters have long chaingrabs such as Dedede and Falco.

For example, Dk isnt viable with D3's infinites where as he would be.

All of His wins come from an area where the infinite is banned.

Edit: didnt expect this to be a double post

 

[ShadowLink84]

And how many DK's or Mario's are on the level of BUM and Boss?

Fox (11 top8, 8 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins) - 51.0

Fox is viable. He's a good character without any broken matchups.
There are no matchups of his that are impossible to win , his toughest is pikachu where an opponent still has to have knowledge of the character and able to maneuver and execute besides his long chaingrab which many other characters have long chaingrabs such as Dedede and Falco.

For example, Dk isnt viable with D3's infinites where as he would be.

All of His wins come from an area where the infinite is banned.

Edit: didnt expect this to be a double post

You're saying its okay for Pikachu to go 9-1 with Fox because of everything else but then say its not okay for DDD to go 9-1 with mario on the fac tthat Mario gets infinited?

What is the difference between a 9-1 for fox vs Pikachu and a 9-1 for Mario vs DDD?
What is the difference?
In both the character has a mnimal chance of winning. You're telling me its impossible for mario to space himself away from DD an try to avoid being grab? But when it comes to Fox vs Pikachu, Fox can do all this other stuff meawhile, mario just gets grabbed as soonas DDD hits Z.

 

[Cirno]

I don't believe there is a link or a quote to an official reason. I could be wrong.

Why does the stage focusing on Dedede have to do anything.

Isn't that over-centralization?
One of our established ban criteria.

You could simply counterpick a character that couldn't be chaingrabbed such as the argument here as to why Dedede's infinite shouldn't be banned.

It still comes down to over-centralizing on DeDeDe.
If every character could chain grab across and off we'd all just ban that board like we do FD(more to prevent focus on one technique, even though I'm pretty sure all characters can jab lock of some sorts) but because DeDeDe is the only one that can and would force over-centralization on himself it needs to banned.
u_u

There is no reason why one should be banned while the other couldn't.

One forces over-centralization.
The other promotes a counter pick.

The results they create are different and only one matches ban criteria.



In any case we only have to worry about big(Company hosted) tournaments as I'm sure most TOs will ban the usage of this technique regardless of what conclusion the SBR come to.

I don't understand why people would either want DK and Bowser to not be viable at all or why people think they're somehow viable with the infinite allowed.

I don't think anyone wants it in.
I think anti-ban are just looking at what a ban out of favoritism for any amount of characters would do to the system we have.

Diddy mains are working on a single banana lock infinite last time I checked. If it is perfected and gives him 90:10s against the top tiers only, or even just MK if infinites/0-deaths are the problem-- is it ok to ban?

Where do we stop?

 

[Turbo Ether]

Fox (11 top8, 8 top4, 1 top2, 2 wins) - 51.0

Fox is viable. He's a good character without any broken matchups.
There are no matchups of his that are impossible to win , his toughest is pikachu where an opponent still has to have knowledge of the character and able to maneuver and execute besides his long chaingrab which many other characters have long chaingrabs such as Dedede and Falco.

For example, Dk isnt viable with D3's infinites where as he would be.

All of His wins come from an area where the infinite is banned.

Edit: didnt expect this to be a double post

Sheik, ZSS vs Fox?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Looks like I have to pull up my argument on how hard things are IS important from page 13.


TL;DR, Ease of use>more matches won for less time training>more effeciency>most people learning it>universal use>the five always being CPed 10:0>5 unviable characters.

Also, its not as easy to get that f-tilt, grab, or d-smash in. If you've only been using it for few hours, you'll probably get punished.

Any more time spent practicing it and the effeciency goes down, making you win less matches.

You don't need QAC to beat Fox as Pikachu... What garbage... The chaingrab goes to 0-70% which can easily be done into an usmash which leads to about 85% and then Fox can reasonably be killed off the top or side at about 100%. Like with King Dedede, Pikachu's of an average learning curve too and it's not like ZSS, Sonic, or Snake who take awhile to learn even if you do have a decent amount of knowledge of the game.

Again, in competitive gaming, ease doesn't matter because you do whatever you can to win even if it means playing as outlandishly gay as possible within legal limits. Also, as said many other times before, the only person that gains really anything from this is DK simply because he's already high tier and has decent matchups against the rest of the top/high tier characters. Mario, Luigi, Bowser, and Samus are definately not in this same boat and will remain just as unviable overall.

 

[CO18]

Isn't that over-centralization?
One of our established ban criteria.



It still comes down to over-centralizing on DeDeDe.
If every character could chain grab across and off we'd all just ban that board like we do FD(more to prevent focus on one technique, even though I'm pretty sure all characters can jab lock of some sorts) but because DeDeDe is the only one that can and would force over-centralization on himself it needs to banned.
u_u





One forces over-centralization.
The other promotes a counter pick.

The results they create are different and only one matches ban criteria.



In any case we only have to worry about big(Company hosted) tournaments as I'm sure most TOs will ban the usage of this technique regardless of what conclusion the SBR come to.

I still dont get how you're saying that one is over-centralizing on Dedede and the other isn't whereas you can counter pick for both.

@Shadowlink They are in an area where D3's infinite is not banned.
BUM and Boss are not good enough to win those matchups with infinites on against an infiniting Dedede.

Other DK/Mario/Luigi mains etc are in that situation so therefore obviously they will not have good tourney results because of this.

There is also the fact that there are significantly WAY less of those mains do the infinite.
I sure as hell know I wouldn't main Mario knowing that there's a high chance of me coming across an unwinnable matchup. With this gone it would promote the use of those characters.

 

[Inui]

Most characters aren't viable. Example, Fox.

The losses Fox suffers to Pikachu, ZSS, Sheik are inflated.

Horrendously bad characters aren't viable. Going to MD/VA showed me that many more characters than I previously thought are viable.

DK and Bowser have too many positive attributes to be considered not viable. It's just this gay, skill-less infinite we're discussing that negates them.

 

[CO18]

Sheik, ZSS vs Fox?

What about those matchups? They're just disadvantaged and definitley not broken

Florida's best Fox 2 stocked Florida's best ZSS twice at a tourney saturday. 2 players of the relatively same skill.

In a broken matchup that certainly would not happen.

I would Never get 2 stocked by nevermind losing nevermind not consistently 2 and 3 stocking any character I can infinite if I choose to do so.

 

[XienZo]

I think tilting forward and A with Shiek is a bit easier than remembering that cluster**** of commands. Either way, can't you mash out of the infinite at lower %? You can't mash out of being screwed and outclassed in every way vs Pika like Fox in that matchup.

What about Falco vs Wolf and Link who has a Dthrow chain -> Dair in which you can't recover from? Isn't it just as bad?

What about Sonic vs MK which is just ridiculously hard? This is obviously not as bad, but where do we draw the line?

Those 5 aren't THAT special. Other characters have serious problems too.

However, the the matches won by being able to beat Fox still can't raise the effeciency of using Sheik or ZSS or Pika over that of keeping your main, while DDD's infinite benefits from the fact that the total number of all the people who main chars who can be infinited outnumber that of Fox's, raising his effeciency high enough to make it worth it to learn the infinite.

You have to remember that out of those infinites and 0 deaths, for your average tourney-goer that you will face(assuming they don't main one of these characters already), only DDD's infinite is worth learning due to the higher amount of characters it counters. Therefore, the five would have to face anyone who can secondary DDD, while Fox only has to deal with Sheik/ZSS/Pika MAINERS, because their effeciency is not high enough to be worth secondary-ing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I still dont get how you're saying that one is over-centralizing on Dedede and the other isn't whereas you can counter pick for both.

@Shadowlink They are in an area where D3's infinite is not banned.
BUM and Boss are not good enough to win those matchups with infinites on against an infiniting Dedede.

Do you have information dictating on how many times they were knocked out of the tournament due to the infinite?
how many times did they encounter D and then chose to stay the same character rather than switch>?
We already ahve a counter which is CP and you have many choices available rather than a very small amount.

Other DK/Mario/Luigi mains etc are in that situation so therefore obviously they will not have good tourney results because of this.

Most of which aren't of the same talent as BUM and Boss.
The amount of DK users an Mario users isn't great so the chances that you'll have player sof that skill level are low. (sort of like flipping a coin 1,000 times)
Again I ask you, how many times have they been knocked out solely due to the infinite?

There is also the fact that there are significantly WAY less of those mains due tothe infinite.

Proof now.
to my knowledge, those characters haven't changed much in their tournament behavior before and after the infinite was discovered. Same with Ness.

I sure as hell know I wouldn't main Mario knowing that there's a high chance of me coming across an unwinnable matchup. With this gone it would promote the use of those characters.

If I was in your position I would continue maining the character, just because I would have a secondary for countering it just as I would have a secondary for Fox in case I run into a Pikachu user.

The infinite is broken, its really shouldn't be in the game at all, however, it doesn't break the game as a whole and it isn't as if you are forced to remain as that character either. nor does that infinite completely destroy their viability that Captain Falcon and ganondorf would be more viable either.

What about those matchups? They're just disadvantaged and definitley not broken

Florida's best Fox 2 stocked Florida's best ZSS twice at a tourney saturday. 2 players of the relatively same skill.[/quote[
Florida's best Fox vs Florid'a best ZSS. tell me how good are they on a national level? Are they on the likes of m2k?
Or lets say high level like Inui?
Even if the opponents are of similar sill, this may not provide an accurate matchup because such occurences are more common at lower levels of play.

Let alone that one instance of a Fox 2 stocking a ZSS is hardly evidence when everything other result is saying otherwise.

it would be like me flipping a coin and getting heads ten times and claiming the chances of getting heads is 100%

In a broken matchup that certainly would not happen.

I've seen people wreck Akuma if the skill gap is large enough or if both opponents were at low level play.

let alone that there are many factors that we cannot take into account on paper. mindgames for example.
100-0 doesn't mean you will always lose. On aper you willalways lose but life has all those little factors that break it

I would Never get 2 stocked by nevermind losing nevermind not consistently 2 and 3 stocking any character I can infinite if I choose to do so.

I am confused by this statement. The nevermind's throw me off @_@

 

[Matador]

I don't understand why should such stages such as Green Greens or Shadow Moses are banned and this would not be.
You could always "counterpick" a character that can't be chaingrabbed.
Its not a solid argument in my opinion.
Basing things off the counterpick system as a whole is not a valid argument in my opinion.

You also walk in blindly for the set using one of those 5 and practically forfeit the first match of the set. You can only counterpick after you've lost.

The problem with bashing the counterpick system for this particular instance is that it's only 5 characters here. About half the cast (or more, can't remember) are wall infinited. Much easier to counterpick for the standing infinite or write it off as a "bad matchup". It seems like more of a political move than anything. Either way, it prevents Brawl from becoming ban-happy.

 

[XxBlackxX]

However, the the matches won by being able to beat Fox still can't raise the effeciency of using Sheik or ZSS or Pika over that of keeping your main, while DDD's infinite benefits from the fact that the total number of all the people who main chars who can be infinited outnumber that of Fox's, raising his effeciency high enough to make it worth it to learn the infinite.

You have to remember that out of those infinites and 0 deaths, for your average tourney-goer that you will face(assuming they don't main one of these characters already), only DDD's infinite is worth learning due to the higher amount of characters it counters. Therefore, the five would have to face anyone who can secondary DDD, while Fox only has to deal with Sheik/ZSS/Pika MAINERS, because their effeciency is not high enough to be worth secondary-ing.

if you personally/your main has trouble with fox, it is absolutely worth second-ing. any definite win matchup is worth secondary-ing, because like D3 mains say about the infinite, it's an almost guaranteed win.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ah its 12 i'll go to sleep early. CO18 can you pm me your response? That way i won't have to go rummaging through 16+ pages to find it.

 

[CO18]

Shadowlink Dedede's infinite was found out like 1 month after the game's release. There was no information at how often they appeared in tourneys so how would you know that.

Dedede's infinite is a large part of the low amount of Mario/Luigi etc mains. Who is to say some High Level player(just throwing this out there) such as Roy R or something would not main those said characaters if it weren't for D3's infinites.

@Matador : Yeah thats what I don't like, how people are seemingly picking and choosing when a certain amount of characters with broken matchups is enough. There should be no difference whether or not its 34 characters or 1 character being effected by the infinite because essentially you can always "counterpick". Its being very subjective.

 

[XienZo]

If I was in your position I would continue maining the character, just because I would have a secondary for countering it just as I would have a secondary for Fox in case I run into a Pikachu user.

People hears you use Mario and you're in the tournament (and you're assumed to be pretty good). They all learn DDD in a few hours. You go in with your secondary, cuz after all, your secondary is all fine.

You go to another tournament. People hear you're coming and all learn DDD. You have to use your secondary the whole time again. Hey, but its just bad luck, right?

You go to a big tournament. All the good pros, even if they normally use only one character, learn DDD in a few hours. You go in, win a few rounds with your secondary, and then your secondary gets owned by a pro you could normally beat with your Mario, but now he's using DDD.

Where did the Mario usage go?

 

[Matador]

However, the the matches won by being able to beat Fox still can't raise the effeciency of using Sheik or ZSS or Pika over that of keeping your main, while DDD's infinite benefits from the fact that the total number of all the people who main chars who can be infinited outnumber that of Fox's, raising his effeciency high enough to make it worth it to learn the infinite.

You have to remember that out of those infinites and 0 deaths, for your average tourney-goer that you will face(assuming they don't main one of these characters already), only DDD's infinite is worth learning due to the higher amount of characters it counters. Therefore, the five would have to face anyone who can secondary DDD, while Fox only has to deal with Sheik/ZSS/Pika MAINERS, because their effeciency is not high enough to be worth secondary-ing.

If you lose to someone who picked D3 only for the infinite, then you it's your fault. There's no excuse for that. It's the same as being CG'd to Dair by Falco while using Link, picking up Shiek vs Fox and just Ftilting the entire match.

You can't just pick up one of those 3 and beat a competent Fox. You can't just pick up D3 and beat Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, or DK; especially since they should know the matchup backwards and forwards. You have to try harder than someone just picking up one of those characters to counter yours, but that's what a bad matchup is all about.

Edit @ CO18:

@Shadowlink They are in an area where D3's infinite is not banned.
BUM and Boss are not good enough to win those matchups with infinites on against an infiniting Dedede.

This is exactly what I'm saying. The TOs should ban it. Boss and Bum are great players and get to play to their full potential without worrying about this clearly broken tech or going through this whole debate about whether or not it's fair to leave it in.

If you think it's broken, host a tourney and ban it yourself. I know that I'm not going to a tourney where it's allowed unless there's some sort of viable strategy around it discovered.

 

[Inui]

You can just pick Dedede and beat a good Bowser or DK. The other characters, no.

 

[ShadowLink84]

People hears you use Mario and you're in the tournament (and you're assumed to be pretty good). They all learn DDD in a few hours. You go in with your secondary, cuz after all, your secondary is all fine.

You go to another tournament. People hear you're coming and all learn DDD. You have to use your secondary the whole time again. Hey, but its just bad luck, right?

You go to a big tournament. All the good pros, even if they normally use only one character, learn DDD in a few hours. You go in, win a few rounds with your secondary, and then your secondary gets owned by a pro you could normally beat with your Mario, but now he's using DDD.

At which point I surprise them with my secondary!
Again you act as if I am forced to remain as Mario/4 other characters.
nothing prevents me from switching and then using my main in a matchup other than DDD.
my opponent won't stay as DDD when they are confronted with ym secondary because they spent their time learning DDD specifically to counter Mario and so lack the capability of dealing with my secondary.

They switch, I bring out Mario, I win. We are happy.

Where did the Mario usage go?

No clue.

Shadowlink Dedede's infinite was found out like 1 month after the game's release. There was no information at how often they appeared in tourneys so how would you know that.

No it was an error on my part. I made a misake on when the infinite was discovered.

Dedede's infinite is a large part of the low amount of Mario/Luigi etc mains. Who is to say some High Level player(just throwing this out there) such as Roy R or something would not main those said characaters if it weren't for D3's infinites.

Who is to say they wouldn't?
Considerinf the fact that a character like Wario gets infinited by 8 different characters, it is highly unlikely that it is solely the infinites at work.

You must also recognize the fact that DK's position has remained relatively the same throughout the list as have the other 4 characters.
If the infinite was as bad and made them so unviable, DK(who has no emthods of trying to space DDD or disjointed attacks) would have dropped, yet he has remained relatively the same in spite of BUM's success in areas where the infinite is banned.

@Matador : Yeah thats what I don't like, how people are seemingly picking and choosing when a certain amount of characters with broken matchups is enough. There should be no difference whether or not its 34 characters or 1 character being effected by the infinite because essentially you can always "counterpick". Its being very subjective.

There should be a difference because that ratio is what dictates onwhen something is being overcentralized.
You can't say something is causing overcentralizing if only a handful of characters are affected.
Of course overcentralizing isn't also juts based on the numbers considering the IC's infinite.

So overcentralizing would be a compound of factors.
it would be the result of being done on a great majority of the cast an it would have to force the game into a situation where it would be "use character A or character B or lose".
it would also mean that the competitiveness of the game is being killed because everything is focused on that one tactic.

You can just pick Dedede and beat a good Bowser or DK. The other characters, no.

Would you bet on it?
My never before used DDD against your Dk/Bowser. If I can 3 stock you with only the infinite I'll give you a cookie.
If I cannot you give me a cookie.

I am serious.

why cookies?
Cause I am poor.

 

[Lord Knight]

YES IT IS. TELL ME WHY IT IS NOT, AND I WILL PROVE YOU IT IS A FACTOR.

Lemme clear this statement. By "ease of use", I'm not saying how easy it is to get a grab or w/e, I'm saying how easy it is to be performed. Ease of use isn't really a factor because as long as something is there and it can help a player win, people will learn it, no matter how hard it is - and if they can't do it, they'll still try to execute it.

 

[Matador]

You can just pick Dedede and beat a good Bowser or DK. The other characters, no.

Why can't they beat it? Can't they mash out of it as well? I figured they'd be able to deal with it pretty well since they can get kills on D3 much quicker than the other 3 and close whatever gaps there may be from the grabs. They also generally have more range and can avoid the shield grab pretty well with spacing.

And then there's the chance that they screw up the timing since they don't even play D3.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why can't they beat it? Can't they mash out of it as well? I figured they'd be able to deal with it pretty well since they can get kills on D3 much quicker than the other 3 and close whatever gaps there may be from the grabs. They also generally have more range and can avoid the shield grab pretty well with spacing.

And then there's the chance that they screw up the timing since they don't even play D3.

The issue with those two characters is that DDD can shieldgrab them out of everything they have 9except bowser's fire breath).

they just don't have the agility (or in DK's case) size to really play keep away as effectively as mario and Luigi.
I do think Inui is exaggerating but the reasoning behind it is the same. I hope.

 

[Inui]

Why can't they beat it? Can't they mash out of it as well? I figured they'd be able to deal with it pretty well since they can get kills on D3 much quicker than the other 3 and close whatever gaps there may be from the grabs. They also generally have more range and can avoid the shield grab pretty well with spacing.

And then there's the chance that they screw up the timing since they don't even play D3.

They are easier to grab and suffer from the small-step CG as well. There's also no real stipulation to do it like with the other characters requiring a grab --> pummel --> throw sequence.

Would you bet on it?
My never before used DDD against your Dk/Bowser. If I can 3 stock you with only the infinite I'll give you a cookie.
If I cannot you give me a cookie.

I am serious.

Not with you. Our skill gap is quite massive and I would be able to pull it off.

Requiring an extreme skill gap to win is stupid.

How about I'm Dedede and I'm willing to bet I'll threestock you?

 

[da K.I.D.]

ill play your D3 with DK inui,

ur not ready son...

 

[ShadowLink84]

They are easier to grab and suffer from the small-step CG as well. There's also no real stipulation to do it like with the other characters requiring a grab --> pummel --> throw sequence

So it was the same

Not with you. Our skill gap is quite massive and I would be able to pull it off.

Requiring an extreme skill gap to win is stupid.

How about I'm Dedede and I'm willing to bet I'll threestock you?

Well the reason I made such a challenge was primarily because of how you sai it was so easy. Not to prove that the infinite doesn't makes DK cry.

Why do you get to be DDD? if the skill gap is massive (I don't use either of the characters) it wouldn't accomplish anything would it?

I actually thought of something. how about you give me a 2 stock lead? Just for ****s and giggles and see how it turns out.
if I(by some miracle) win, you have to give me two cookies instead of one.

 

[da K.I.D.]

only if you take 10 minutes before you start the match and actually learn the infinite

 

[Inui]

Ok.

Btw, ease of performing doesn't really the matter. The problem I have with the infinite is that it's both easy to start and difficult to avoid.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't need to practice the infinite. =P

@inui: Agreed. Wait so you are taking me up on the challenge? Awesome, next time you host a tournament, I'll be there. hopefully you'll host it before the 23rd of december. =X

 

[da K.I.D.]

if you already know how to do it, than you should at least 2 stock him handily

 

[ShadowLink84]

if you already know how to do it, than you should at least 2 stock him handily

i would never let him live it down if I somehow managed to do it.

Wait a second I changed the challenge didn't I
my Dk (3 stock) vs his DDD (1stock)

Cookies are on the line.

 

[Matador]

The issue with those two characters is that DDD can shieldgrab them out of everything they have 9except bowser's fire breath).

they just don't have the agility (or in DK's case) size to really play keep away as effectively as mario and Luigi.
I do think Inui is exaggerating but the reasoning behind it is the same. I hope.

And he can't shieldgrab the rest of them? They all have shorter range. I understand Samus (to an extent) but Mario and Luigi don't have much range at all and can be snatched right of the air. At least DK and Bowser can KO him relatively easily.

 

[cutter]

i would never let him live it down if I somehow managed to do it.

Wait a second I changed the challenge didn't I
my Dk (3 stock) vs his DDD (1stock)

Cookies are on the line.

Remember, don't get grabbed.