I've decided this will be my last post about ddd, so i'm gonna try to sum up all my feelings and
complaints here ^^ after this i don't want to write anymore since i feel like its gotten too repetitive
^^if you don't like any of my arguments feel free to disagree with them or if so inclined use the next
three pages to cuss me out on how much of an idiot u think i am...but please at least hear me out and
not base your judgements on disagreeing with one small thing you dislike
there are very good arguments on both sides... people need to understand this instead of the constant
thinking that one entire side is completely scrub. :D so here it is, my last ddd post. :D
A Case Against DDDs infinite by: Hive (sorry if this is too long, i honestly am not trying to spam)
anyways: Some reasons I would like to address for banning DDD's infinite
First off I would like to define what DDD's infinite means to me, and why i think it is different from
other cgs and infinites...
-Of course I'm thinking of DDD's infinite cg on Samus, Luigi, DK, Mario, and Bowser
some notes: what i mainly mean is DDD's standing and small step cg's on these 5 characters which
almost certainly results in a stock or nearly a stock (brickwalling simplifies the cg process even more
than usual as well)...
his cg on these 5 with a dash in between isn't what I'm addressing....
While his cg can be argued that it is similar it also makes the argument too broad...
also, while I believe wall cgs and walkoffs both warrant a ban, I'm not including these in this
bc whether or not to include these is almost always bound to be a matter of opinion.
-Concerning Bowser's "small step" infinite... while it is technically not an infinite by itself (even
though it runs like 200% damage on starter levels...), as I think CO18 pointed out, Bowser can still be
infinited on any platform because when space runs out it turns into a ledge infinite.
Why its a problem:
Its actually fairly difficult to address this problem w/o first addressing how its different
than other cgs...
YES, i think there is a difference. I think the differences between it and some others CAN be shown, and
that its not nearly as blurry as some people would like to make it seem... though it can be tied with a
few other things depending on your opinion of it...
Some arguments against it being just
"another move" or "another combo" - This argument seems to come up a lot from ppl who would like
to try to tie in it being banned to leading to banning other things in brawl... and while
it is technically a combo, and a move, I would also like to point out what i think makes it different
from other combos and moves.
Not one of these but all of these contributed to my decision:
-DDD's grab range I believe is one of the main factors that separate from most other grabs....
BC its range is so large, and bc it comes out fairly fast, it can be used often and w/o as much risk of
punishment or risk of it being avoided.
While it can be avoided sometimes I really think the chances of it being avoided entirely a whole match
are close to none... or at least not nearly reliable enough to depend on no matter what skll level. I
know at least that CO18 and Seibrik have both challenged anyone to go even a stock w/o being grabbed at least four times, with any character the opponent chooses...
I imagine they both know what they are talking about... also most higher level vids i've seen between
ddd and a cgable character would seem to show the same as well... I think its safe to say that "Don't
get grabbed" is not an option here... even though theoretically its possible it assumes you are on a
completely different skill lvl then your opponent.
-How Situational DDDs grab is: like a few other cgs this tech can be performed in almost any
circumstance... platforms, ground level... and so on. now with the new ledge grab tech found i imagine
this will include ledges over time as well..
This i think separates from ledge grabs, wall grabs, and even ICs grabs due to the fact that they have
to be synched.
-Its influence on matchups: A lot of times even with cgs and infinites.. the matchup is still failry
winnable by both sides...
in DDDs case it turns the matchup into an almost unwinnable situation for the other person...
These five characters have little to no chance against winning this match...
Should this matter? -is a common counterargument... bad matchups have and will exist all over the
place in brawl and we shouldn't try to make the game completely balanced. this is true. and i think its
why a lot of ppl think this will lead into other bans... even though most pro-ban ppl seem clear that
they only want to outline this one move..
The difference for me is a few things:
-The technique kills the other players involvement in the game for a prolonged period of time (what
point is a fighting game w/o fighting?)
-The technique doesn't effect DDD's strategy in these matchups much.. since cg is still a viable option
and is approached the same way...
-and it turns an almost unwinnable matchup for these characters into a plain disadvantaged one...
why does this matter? bc it helps prevent double character counterpicking (which I'll address in a
sec..) and also bc it makes the matchup at least entertaining to play, since their is a chance that each
side can win... skill will become a factor in deciding a winner again.
-Why Ics infinites aren't the same- ICs cgs can be avoided better bc of their grab range and ability to
desynch them... also even with their cgs they are still only mid-tier and do not make any matchups vs.
anybody unwinnable.
Also it is essential to their metagames. DDDs I would argue is not.... some of the
most recognized DDD players in regions that ban infinites would seem to support this... DDD is still top
tier even w/o it.
Why its not the same as melee or other fighting games-
First off comparing it to other fighting games is a pretty weak argument (except for melee bc of obvious
similarities) while it similar in respect to its genre the differences between them will always make
this pointless to argue.
but here are a few reasons why its not the same:
-in many other fighting games infinites are shared by most if not all of the cast making them a viable
technique by everyone....
-also in many other fighting games the build of the game (way more offensive than brawl) and also the
lower hps of ppl, mean that infinites don't outweigh even regular combos and moves by nearly as much.
In brawl however this kills a larger portion of the match... (since it is more defensive and players can
take A LOT more damage before a stock is ended)
Differences Between Brawl and Melee-
THis is a good anti-ban argument i've heard, one of the more solid ones in my opinion...
there are a few differences:
-combos and hitstun are more prominent in melee
-You can tech out of most grabs
-and stocks don't last as long (which is why standard play is 4 stocks compared to brawl's 3)
-MOST cgs in melee don't outweigh the matchup as much
-Also some infinites that do outweigh matchups are also ESSENTIAL for that character in other matchups so taking it away while saving one character essentially hurts the other...
With DDDs, however, again this is not the case.
However the games are still very similar and previous decisions need to be taken into account...
I wish there was more detailing why these decisions were made before though....
but anyways, there seems to be a few arguments that some melee cgs before were as devastating to
matchups as DDDs is in brawl...
to this i have to say... nothing. ^^ I don't know enough about why it wasn't banned before really
Finally a few more counterarguments I'd like to address :D
-Counterpicking a level prevents a bad matchup-
Why this is wrong: The first level in a series is almost always a neutral level, DDD will of course ban
two that he dislikes... any of these starters though offers DDD perfect opportunities to infinite.
The second game (assuming you lost) you will get to counterpick... DDD has a few bad lvls and this will
help you ideally to get a win... but you forget that also if you do win DDD will get the counterpick,
and DDD has some REALLY good lvls for him (walkoffs, walls, etc...)
-Conterpicking a character prevents his infinite from being effective-
yes and no. in a double blind situation this is impossible of course... but if you do cp many ppl will
most likely pick mk a very popular, easy to be decent with, counter to DDD.
A lot of times this will have the added effect though of making DDD have to cp as well...
which ends up in a ditto... I think forcing character to cp is a main reason DDD mains want infinite
banned as well.
-There are not enough ppl effected to warrant a ban- THis will always be an opinion issue.. there's
really no point in arguing this.
-However imo I believe that since there are only a few characters effected banning it would also not
have much of a negative effect if a ban were introduced.
-I don't believe the rulesets should only try to protect characters if jut a majority or high tier
characters are being threatened
-and i believe that sbr's rulings on Bowser's suicide and such show that character specific rules ARE
possible.
-It can be broken out of at higher percentages- until there is more support for this it remains to be
seen how effective it will be.... many times the characters can't break out til ko percentages anyways,
or near enough that ddd can just switch to a cg for the rest of the percentages....
However, most DDD mains that i've heard from don't seem to ever really have the problem of ppl breaking
out... Also, this is usually caused by something situationally happening in the level or button
mashing...
Which is still pretty lame
Also, idk if its there anymore but for the longest time there was a rumor that you could break out at
earlier percentages, though most ppl didn't realize this was ony possible if u were grabbed in the air.
-Samus, Mario, DK, Bowser, Luigi mains at higher levels have figured out ways around it/to avoid it.
which is just plain wrong.... unfortunately ; ;
-Banning DDDs infinite would be hard to implement or outline-
well, there are quite a few areas that already do... and it seems like they really don't have many
problems with it at all... which is usually a good indication.
-Overswarm is secretly Jonathan Swift- again the logic here is inpenetrable ^^
he also eats babies, yum!
YAy! ok i think that's everything! which means i get to shut up now ^^ i hope this was at least
partially interesting :D
I don't think you even realize how laughably hypocritical that statement was. Off the top of my head from the last time I looked: 80-20: Mario, Luigi, Link, Ganondorf, Samus, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, and Sonic. 70-30: Peach, Donkey Kong, Shiek, Toon Link, Pit, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Fox, Wolf, Charizard, Marth, and Ike. 25 out of 39 with only three characters being 45:55 in Metaknight's favor, Diddy, Snake, and Yoshi.
