Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Overswarm]

...did you just compare yourself to Modest Proposal? Did you actually just do that? Wow.

Satire is not your friend.

No, I compared the average reading reaction to my short post to the average reading reaction to people reading that work.

Seriously, it's like people just read what they want to read. Where did I say "I AM JONATHAN SWIFT AND MY POSTS ARE THE BEST EVAR"?

 

[Woozle]

Why the hell is this even being debated?

Honestly, I don't understand the mentality behind wantonly banning everything that people can't seem to cope with in the game. D3's infinite is not the end-all-be-all in the game. There are ways around it. Christ.

This is the same ******** argument used against the IC infinite in Melee that's been rehashed over and over again.

If it continues to be a problem over and over again, then maybe it was never solved.

 

[Fatmanonice]

*looks at the poll results*

You know what's downright hilarious? The fact that most of the people who wanted Metaknight banned don't want this banned and those that didn't want Metaknight banned support banning this? If we're going to ban all the little things that make Brawl "gay", can we do a vote on Snake's ftilt next?

 

[RDK]

[/color]
First of all, if you can't pull off the infinite correctly, you must have two broken thumbs. But that's beside the point.

No it's not. The infinite is not activated as soon as the match begins. You can avoid it, and any D3 player who simply runs around grabbing in the hopes that he'll infinite you is a ******.

It's called spacing.

At high level play, everyone knows who everyone else's main is since they aren't morons and do their research. The simple fact that someone is known as a DK main prohibits him from playing DK, merely because of the threat of DDD. In a best of three set, you want one match determined entirely by double blind picks?

Like I've said a million times before--picking D3 as a counter against DK does not mean an automatic win. Where you're getting this idea is beyond me.

That's how counterpicks work. If someone knows you're a DK main and plans on using D3 as an answer, pick someone else or cope with it.

If you can prove that some of MK's moves ALONE make Captain Falcon unviable at high level tournament play, then I completely agree with you.

Unfortunately, you're a moron and that's nowhere close to true. Falcon is unviable no matter what we do to MK. Inversely, as soon as DDD's infinite gets banned, DK is suddenly a very viable character again.

I never said he wasn't unviable in any other situation. But the logic you're using to condemn D3's infinite is just as idiotically contrived as the example I used. There was a reason I made it sound dumb, in case that one was a little too hard to grasp on the first try.

And DK is still a viable character in high level play. Perhaps just not against D3 when the infinite is involved. Big whoop. That's the story of Smash.

 

[DRaGZ]

*looks at the poll results*

You know what's downright hilarious? The fact that most of the people who wanted Metaknight banned don't want this banned and those that didn't want Metaknight banned support banning this? If we're going to ban all the little things that make Brawl "gay", can we do a vote on Snake's ftilt next?

I would actually start with the u-tilt, but that's just me.

Actually, I wouldn't start with anything at all.

 

[pure_awesome]

No, I compared the average reading reaction to my short post to the average reading reaction to people reading that work.

Seriously, it's like people just read what they want to read. Where did I say "I AM JONATHAN SWIFT AND MY POSTS ARE THE BEST EVAR"?

Therefore comparing your own style of writing to Swift's.

You're saying that anyone that had that reaction to your writing must logically have had an equivalent reaction to his.

Der?

And where did I say you said your posts were the best ever? Seriously, it's like people just read what they want to read.

 

[K 2]

One other reason people don't want to ban this infinite is that EVERYONE will start whining about EVERYTHING. IC's CG will be next, then all CG's will be banned, followed by a ban of characters, etc. etc. Everyone who plays at the tournament level should be able to play 2-3 characters extremely well. If you're a DK main and Seibrik is your next match, counterpick someone else.

Why does eveyone want to ban stuff in brawl? Do they hate it that much?

 

[BentoBox]

Are you just trying to get banned? Because you've been warned to stop strawmanning.

It does not over-centralize the game. Walk-offs do. This is why they are banned and this is not.

How am I strawmanning?

How is it that a stage dependant characteristic can potentially over-centralize a game (because you know, setting Eldin as a counterpick suddenly makes it so everyone would only play on that one map 24/7) but a permanent tool causing the same consequences regardless of terrain doesn't? How is getting grabbed/infinited on Eldin much more worse than getting infinited EVERYWHERE?

 

[DRaGZ]

Therefore comparing your own style of writing to Swift's.

You're saying that anyone that had that reaction to your writing must logically have had an equivalent reaction to his.

Der?

And where did I say you said your posts were the best ever? Seriously, it's like people just read what they want to read.

You're an idiot.

 

[DRaGZ]

How am I strawmanning?

How is it that a stage dependant characteristic can potentially over-centralize a game but a permanent tool causing the same consequences regardless of terrain doesn't? How is getting grabbed/infinited on Eldin much more worse than getting infinited EVERYWHERE?

Because it's just six characters. Walk-offs, on the other hand, would make it so everyone would lose with a grab, i.e. overcentralization towards DeDeDe

 

[RDK]

You're an idiot.

Thank God. Intelligent people.

 

[Woozle]

^^ Share's your opinion =/= More intelligent than those who don't

 

[DRaGZ]

Share's your opinion =/= More intelligent than those who don't

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[BentoBox]

God Dragz, I refuse to go through this again with you. You already tried arguing and I believe this is how it ended: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5986034&postcount=317

 

[Woozle]

What does that have to do with anything?

Nothing really, simply reacting to statements.

But nothing in this thread really matters or makes sense.

So I don't see how it's out of place.

 

[bobson]

matchup stuff

Go bug HeroMystic if you want specifics; my point was that, with the possible exception of Samus, they aren't heavily disadvantaged. It's not unwinnable by any means, unlike it is with the infinite allowed.

You know what's downright hilarious? The fact that most of the people who wanted Metaknight banned don't want this banned and those that didn't want Metaknight banned support banning this?

Removing Metaknight means you lose a playable character. Removing Dedede's infinite means you gain five playable characters.

 

[pure_awesome]

No it's not. The infinite is not activated as soon as the match begins. You can avoid it, and any D3 player who simply runs around grabbing in the hopes that he'll infinite you is a ******.

It's called spacing.

So your advice is "Don't get grabbed?"

This is what you're going with?



Like I've said a million times before--picking D3 as a counter against DK does not mean an automatic win. Where you're getting this idea is beyond me.[/quote]
From high level play? If you don't think a pro DDD can get three grabs on DK throughout the course of a match... I mean, come on. DK doesn't even have a projectile.

That's how counterpicks work. If someone knows you're a DK main and plans on using D3 as an answer, pick someone else or cope with it.

Right. So **** you, everyone who wants to main DK.

I never said he wasn't unviable in any other situation. But the logic you're using to condemn D3's infinite is just as idiotically contrived as the example I used. [/quote]
I'm saying that DDD's infinite, IN AND OF ITSELF, completely renders DK unviable as a high-level main.
Your example said that this is the equivalent of saying that some of Metaknight's moves do the same to Captain Falcon.
Saying this is the same is completely false. We could ban the entire character and Falcon would still be unplayable. This is a strawman argument at it's worst and isn't even close to what I'm saying.

And DK is still a viable character in high level play. Perhaps just not against D3 when the infinite is involved. Big whoop. That's the story of Smash.

That's the story of Smash? Name one time this has ever happened. No single tech or move has single-handedly reduced a character from awesome to nothing.



You're not getting the main point. DK doesn't just become useless in matches against DDD. He becomes useless anywhere that there's the possibility of DDD. No high level player is going to be dumb enough to pick DK when DDD is a possible opponent.

 

[Overswarm]

Therefore comparing your own style of writing to Swift's.

You're saying that anyone that had that reaction to your writing must logically have had an equivalent reaction to his.

Der?

And where did I say you said your posts were the best ever? Seriously, it's like people just read what they want to read.

Right there. Swift was awesome.

My style of writing for that paragraph was comparable to swift's; I wasn't being literal, and a lot of people took it at face value. Just like with A Modest Proposal

 

[DRaGZ]

God Dragz, I refuse to go through this again with you. You already tried arguing and I believe this is how it ended: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5986034&postcount=317

It didn't really end there...I didn't even see that post.

And to be honest, yes, ease of enforceability and efficiency of a rule is actually a relevant factor. You can't just shout IRRELEVANT and hope it sticks. It doesn't.

 

[pure_awesome]

Right there. Swift was awesome.

...okay, I'll give you that.

My style of writing for that paragraph was comparable to swift's; I wasn't being literal, and a lot of people took it at face value. Just like with A Modest Proposal

Modest Proposal was entirely satirical. You plunked a random paragraph down in the middle of two non-satirical ones.
Modest Proposal was also so completely outlandish that noone would have ever taken it seriously. Your paragraph, on the other hand... well, we see those exact arguments made all over the place. People read Modest Proposal and go "What the ****?". People read that paragraph and say "Oh, this argument again."

Keep in mind that you're in the Smashboards Tactical Discussion. We see much dumber stuff than that around here every hour, on the hour.

You're an idiot.

Well if DRAGZ says it, it must be true.

I'd make fun of you for the situation, but RDK thinks you're intelligent. That should be insulting enough.

Snap! I love this thread.

 

[BentoBox]

It didn't really end there...I didn't even see that post.

And to be honest, yes, ease of enforceability and efficiency of a rule is actually a relevant factor. You can't just shout IRRELEVANT and hope it sticks. It doesn't.

And yet we managed to ban the IDC now didn't we? And we also banned stalling didn't we? I mean, it's not like these actions are performed automatically. >_>" <_<" >_>"

And it was irrelevant. We are not asked our opinion based on how enforceable a rule is. Stop trying to make it as. MK's ban was the Everest compared to this, and it was still up for discussion.

 

[RDK]

So your advice is "Don't get grabbed?"

This is what you're going with?

Basically. What is the problem with taking the consequences for playing stupidly? If you don't play well enough to avoid getting infinited, then you deserve to be infinited.

From high level play? If you don't think a pro DDD can get three grabs on DK throughout the course of a match... I mean, come on. DK doesn't even have a projectile.

Thank God there are rules in place that make sure the infinite doesn't last forever, and also that there are no walk-off stages.

Right. So **** you, everyone who wants to main DK.

Not at all.

Possibly **** everyone who mains DK and does not do a good job of making sure they get infinited by competent D3 players.

That's a lot of conditionals to merit an instant ban of something most people don't even understand the specifics of.

That's the story of Smash? Name one time this has ever happened. No single tech or move has single-handedly reduced a character from awesome to nothing.

I've Wobbling is a fair enough example. And saying that the D3 infinite suddenly takes all DK players from awesome to nothing is a horribly large blanket statement. Yay for unfounded generalizations.

I've already explained why going into a match against D3 as DK isn't an auto-lose. I don't care to explain it again.

You're not getting the main point. DK doesn't just become useless in matches against DDD. He becomes useless anywhere that there's the possibility of DDD. No high level player is going to be dumb enough to pick DK when DDD is a possible opponent.

Yeah, I'm sure every single player that comes up against you will choose D3 as a counter to your DK as opposed to going with the character he's actually accustomed to using, despite perhaps not even being familiar with D3 or any of his matchups.

Like I said; that's how counters work. If you don't like it, pick someone else. Or just cope with the double blind in the third match.

 

[bob-e]

One other reason people don't want to ban this infinite is that EVERYONE will start whining about EVERYTHING. IC's CG will be next, then all CG's will be banned, followed by a ban of characters, etc. etc. Everyone who plays at the tournament level should be able to play 2-3 characters extremely well. If you're a DK main and Seibrik is your next match, counterpick someone else.

Why does eveyone want to ban stuff in brawl? Do they hate it that much?

This, a trillion times over. What makes people think that DK, Samus, Mario, etc are special and shouldn't have to counter pick for a horrible match up? Boo hoo, your favorite character got the short end of the stick, deal with it.

I main Falco, god forbid I learn someone else to deal with G&W. They should probably just ban his aerials to balance the game.

 

[XienZo]

No it's not. The infinite is not activated as soon as the match begins. You can avoid it, and any D3 player who simply runs around grabbing in the hopes that he'll infinite you is a ******.

It's called spacing.

You're kidding, right? If you avoid DDD to the point where he can't grab you, thats because your Jigglypuff floating around the stage.

DDD is BARELY easier than avoiding Olimar's grab for a game, and thats impossible...

This, a trillion times over. What makes people think that DK, Samus, Mario, etc are special and shouldn't have to counter pick for a horrible match up? Boo hoo, your favorite character got the short end of the stick, deal with it.

I main Falco, god forbid I learn someone else to deal with G&W. They should probably just ban his aerials to balance the game.

Its simple, normally you can still use your main EVENTUALLY since not every single player in the world can succesfully main characters that 100:0 you.

DDD is relatively WAAAAAAY easier to use, meaning anyone who's smart will learn to use DDD(No, learning MK only gives you 60:40s, not 100:0, so its not worth it for your average pro), and you can NEVER use your main ever again.

 

[BentoBox]

Possibly **** everyone who mains DK and does not do a good job of making sure they get infinited by competent D3 players.

Come on now... Do you even play Brawl?

 

[CO18]

Basically. What is the problem with taking the consequences for playing stupidly? If you don't play well enough to avoid getting infinited, then you deserve to be infinited.



Thank God there are rules in place that make sure the infinite doesn't last forever, and also that there are no walk-off stages.



Not at all.

Possibly **** everyone who mains DK and does not do a good job of making sure they get infinited by competent D3 players.

That's a lot of conditionals to merit an instant ban of something most people don't even understand the specifics of.



I've Wobbling is a fair enough example. And saying that the D3 infinite suddenly takes all DK players from awesome to nothing is a horribly large blanket statement. Yay for unfounded generalizations.

I've already explained why going into a match against D3 as DK isn't an auto-lose. I don't care to explain it again.



Yeah, I'm sure every single player that comes up against you will choose D3 as a counter to your DK as opposed to going with the character he's actually accustomed to using, despite perhaps not even being familiar with D3 or any of his matchups.

Like I said; that's how counters work. If you don't like it, pick someone else. Or just cope with the double blind in the third match.

So I guess you're stupid eh. 1,000,000,0000,000 dollar MM My D3 vs your DK?

 

[pure_awesome]

What they said.

DDD has the longest non-tether grab range in the game.
DDD has a spammable projectile he can use to force DK to approach.
DK is an entirely close-quarters character.

If you honestly think that you can space with DK so well that you'll avoid the infinite, then you should just start playing Wolf and Shine everything, you perfect specimen of a Smasher, you.

 

[Ulevo]

Bento, why are you continuing to argue? It really isn't proceeding to go anywhere, since every time you present an apple to them, they give you cherry pie in exchange.

Why waste your time?

 

[XienZo]

Basically. What is the problem with taking the consequences for playing stupidly? If you don't play well enough to avoid getting infinited, then you deserve to be infinited.

Why would that be true? Thats assuming a decent amount of skill can overcome being grabbed.

Lets look at it statistically. Name all the moves DK has that are safe on block against DDD's grab. Note that grabboxes can actually grab an extended arm or leg.

 

[Ulevo]

Why would that be true? Thats assuming a decent amount of skill can overcome being grabbed.

Lets look at it statistically. Name all the moves DK has that are safe on block against DDD's grab. Note that grabboxes can actually grab an extended arm or leg.

There are virtually no moves in Brawl that truly safe on block. It isn't even a point worth making, because the bottom line is that RDK is assuming the Donkey Kong player to be exceptionally better than the Dedede player in question, which isn't a reasonable way of looking at things at all, or is even realistic in competitive play.

Can players beat Akuma in Street Fighter? Probably. Is it realistic to do so? Hell no. But why don't we allow him to run loose, since anyone who loses is stupid for not fighting perfectly in order to win?

 

[BentoBox]

Bento, why are you continuing to argue? It really isn't proceeding to go anywhere, since every time you present an apple to them, they give you cherry pie in exchange.

Why waste your time?

Because I'm craving for an apple pie right now :[

 

[RDK]

So I guess you're stupid eh. 1,000,000,0000,000 dollar MM My D3 vs your DK?

Oh sure, seeing as how I obviously main DK.

Why would that be true? Thats assuming a decent amount of skill can overcome being grabbed.

Lets look at it statistically. Name all the moves DK has that are safe on block against DDD's grab. Note that grabboxes can actually grab an extended arm or leg.

There are virtually no moves in Brawl that truly safe on block. It isn't even a point worth making, because the bottom line is that RDK is assuming the Donkey Kong player to be exceptionally better than the Dedede player in question, which isn't a reasonable way of looking at things at all, or is even realistic in competitive play.

What's so hard to understand about % limit? You have to stop at some point, or you lose the match.

And to answer Bento's question, I wasn't talking exclusively about grabbing straight out of block. My example being used was the D3 actively pursuing you to initiate the infinite.

If you're honestly going to complain about how detrimental the infinite is, I suggest talking to all the supposed victims who got IC infinited in Melee and ask them how many nights they went home to slit their wrists.

 

[CO18]

Oh sure, seeing as how I obviously main DK.





What's so hard to understand about % limit? You have to stop at some point, or you lose the match.

And to answer Bento's question, I wasn't talking exclusively about grabbing straight out of block. My example being used was the D3 actively pursuing you to initiate the infinite.

If you're honestly going to complain about how detrimental the infinite is, I suggest talking to all the supposed victims who got IC infinited in Melee and ask them how many nights they went home to slit their wrists.

I believe Umbreon said something about no Straw-man arguments or something like that.

Don't compare this to melee.

 

[RDK]

Can players beat Akuma in Street Fighter? Probably. Is it realistic to do so? Hell no. But why don't we allow him to run loose, since anyone who loses is stupid for not fighting perfectly in order to win?

Akuma does not merely effectively exclude a single character from higher level play. He makes it nigh impossible to play any character besides Akuma in higher level play.

Don't compare this to melee.

Thanks for skipping the majority of my post and only answering the supposed strawman about Melee.

And the IC infinite is perfectly applicable, if not even moreso, seeing as how it was effective against everyone.

 

[Ulevo]

Oh sure, seeing as how I obviously main DK.

Johns.

I don't main Dedede. How about me then? That's fair, right?

What's so hard to understand about % limit? You have to stop at some point, or you lose the match.

How the hell does the percent limit come into play? Dedede Grabs you, he brings you up to a % below that so called limit, and kills you. It doesn't change anything. All the limit does is make Dedede stall less, but for the point your making, there is no difference whatsoever. What exactly are you trying to prove?

And to answer Bento's question, I wasn't talking exclusively about grabbing straight out of block. My example being used was the D3 actively pursuing you to initiate the infinite.

If you're honestly going to complain about how detrimental the infinite is, I suggest talking to all the supposed victims who got IC infinited in Melee and ask them how many nights they went home to slit their wrists.

You can't even begin to compare Ice Climbers in both Melee or Brawl to this. Ice Climbers have character faults in both games respectively that prevent them from easily ****** you with a single grab.

Also, why the hell would a Dedede need to pursue a DK? He just needs to sit there and chuck Waddle Dee's at you until you're forced to attack, which you then are grabbed.

 

[cutter]

If the ICs had so many supposed faults in Melee to set up Wobbling, why was it still seriously considered being banned?

 

[Tyser]

Brawl sucks. Dedede is pretty cool though. His infinite should be in the game because Brawl said so.

 

[Remzi]

Lol @ people comparing D3's infinite to IC's infinite.

EDIT: Lol my post count is my area code

 

[Ulevo]

Akuma does not merely effectively exclude a single character from higher level play. He makes it nigh impossible to play any character besides Akuma in higher level play.

That's not the point. We're not talking about Akuma's effect on the cast in comparison to Dedede's effect on the cast. We're talking about what is and isn't reasonable in order to win, and how you believe any player who loses from simply being grabbed three times by the best non tether grab reach in the game is stupid.

Thanks for skipping the majority of my post and only answering the supposed strawman about Melee.

And the IC infinite is perfectly applicable, if not even moreso, seeing as how it was effective against everyone.

I'm not going to repeat what I posted above.

Also, Ice Climbers have conditions and criteria in order to perform an infinite that prevent them from easily beating everyone. You can't compare the two.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Anit-banners: Why exactly do u want this to stay? When a noob that just learned how to grab yesterday shows up in a tournament and beats ur main with DDD u know something's wrong. It adds nothing to the game and thus should be removed. A competitive game should be about who has more skill and who deserves to win not who can grab or stall the longest.