Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[platomaker]

Evidently, Luigi Player, supposedly the best Brawl player in Austria, possibly one of the best in all of Europe!


Smash Balls were banned for perfectly legit reasons, one of them being over-centralization around not only certain characters but also around a certain tactic we felt was "too good". The entire metagame would revolve mostly not only around who had the best Final Smashes but also around Final Smashes themselves.

Why fight tooth and nail to rack up 120% only to see yourself at KO:ed at 0% if you can just go for Marth or Falco, who both win very well without Final Smashes and who are absolutely unstoppable with them? The game would revolve around a select few characters and their Final Smashes.

Not acceptable.

the game would revolve around a select few characters? isn't that how it is now? I haven't been to a tourny, but i get crap for playing ness, mario, and other LOW TIER characters, in fact, the word LOW TIER is tied to these tournaments, right? I'm asking you, because I can only assume. Even without the smash ball, there are times when I have KO'd people with 0% and likewise have been KO'd with 0% due to stages that are "legal".

I've played against people better than me, almost as long as I've played. The smash balls really do make a devastating impression during and even after the match, but its not like the person on the receiving end is helpless.

one other thing,

"The entire metagame would revolve mostly not only around who had the best Final Smashes but also around Final Smashes themselves."

I'm still a little lost in this statement, please clarify. Thank you.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Is there anyway to reset the vote, or do it again? The poll reads that a small majority is in favor of the ban, but the votes happened largely before the discussion. If the opinions of the people in this thread are representative of the majority of players, I would think another vote would show in favor of not banning it.

 

[Yuna]

the game would revolve around a select few characters? isn't that how it is now? I haven't been to a tourny, but i get crap for playing ness, mario, and other LOW TIER characters, in fact, the word LOW TIER is tied to these tournaments, right?

The game is not over-centralized by nature, it is over-centralized by choice. Players choose to play Top Tier characters.

With Smash Balls on, it would no longer be a choice. You'd have to play as someone with a great Final Smash and a great non-FS game just to stand a chance. As it stands now, you do not. You can still win playing as quite a few characters.

With Final Smashes on? Not so much.

I'm asking you, because I can only assume. Even without the smash ball, there are times when I have KO'd people with 0% and likewise have been KO'd with 0% due to stages that are "legal".

What stages would these be and how did you KO people at 0%? I'm assuming they were either idiots or got p0wned by walk-offs.

The smash balls really do make a devastating impression during and even after the match, but its not like the person on the receiving end is helpless.

How are they not if the FS kills them? Many FS:es are one-hit KO moves at 0%. We find this unacceptable.

I'm still a little lost in this statement, please clarify. Thank you.

The metagame would not revolve around fighting to rack up damage and then KO:ing + possible edgeguarding or gimping. It would revolve a lot more about just grabbing that Smash Ball and OHKO:ing each other.

This is not to mention that FS:es spawn at random times in quasi-random positions and they favor the losing player, thus, both players do not always stand an equal chance.

 

[RDK]

It is impossible to avoid the grab.

Not it's not. Stop asserting this. You know absolutely nothing about Smash.

When an infinite is performed, how is that a competitive game? The other player has NO other options, what makes that a fighting game now? In my book that's just a single player game with one player timing buttons over and over. I think that anything that puts a player in a position where it is equivalent to unplugging the controller should be banned.

You do realize that all infinites are basically extended combos, right? So essentially, taking your reasoning to its logical end, we have to ban all combos, or any type of attack that garners hitstun whatsoever, becuase it takes away the other player's control over the character. At this point it doesn't matter how long control is taken away, because then we'd just be drawing arbitrary, subjective lines in the sand.

One of you pro-bies make a new thread proposing we ban all attacks and potential combos, because that's really what you're asking here.

What part of "Competitive gaming isn't fair. Life isn't fair." was confusing for you?

But the point is it's completely, 100% fair! That's what Luigi Player isn't getting. It's his fault for picking DK and opening up the potential for getting infinited. There are 35 other characters to choose from. Pick one of those.

Competitive gaming is completely fair, given you don't make stupid-*** decisions in the character select screen.

For stalling, yes. For killing, no.

Period, I'm right. The rest of this topic is garbage unless they said what I just said.

This is why there's the 300% limit on the chaingrab.

 

[M15t3R E]

So you guys agree there should be some sort of limitation to DDD's infinite to prevent stalling?

 

[platomaker]

i tried spiking someone, they dodged and footstooled me. couldn't recover, but that's besides the point. some final smashes are not instant kills, they usually end in death- but you can survive them if you don't get hit.
Maybe you're right. I haven't been to a tournament. So "Those who don't should just shut up and leave Smashboards", please tell me have you seen a Samus player enter a tournament?

The game is not over-centralized by nature, it is over-centralized by choice. Players choose to play Top Tier characters.


what do you mean by over-centralized by nature? and if smash balls were in would the game be over-centralized by nature?

is it nature to pick a character with a good final smash and a good non-final smash game just as its nature to pick those with advantages rather than disadvantages? you wouldn't have to do anything, it would just be more factors to consider.

speaking of choice, if you pit a ness against a marth or Dedede, that limits the choice doesn't it? isn't it nature for the marth or dedede to win?

 

[cutter]

So you guys agree there should be some sort of limitation to DDD's infinite to prevent stalling?

It already has been done. All infinites cannot exceed 300% or it becomes stalling.

 

[platomaker]

But the point is it's completely, 100% fair! That's what Luigi Player isn't getting. It's his fault for picking DK and opening up the potential for getting infinited. There are 35 other characters to choose from. Pick one of those.

Competitive gaming is completely fair, given you don't make stupid-*** decisions in the character select screen.

nature v. choice?

 

[M15t3R E]

It already has been done. All infinites cannot exceed 300% or it becomes stalling.

Which I think isn't strict enough.
With 300% as the cap, the infinite can still be used to stall for around 1 minute and 15 seconds on all 3 stocks. That means a potential 3.5 to 4 minutes of stalling in 1 match...

 

[Vulcan55]

Stalling is a non-issue. There is already a rule that covers it. Stop bringing it up.
If you must, make a new topic about changing the limit. Until it's changed, stop using stalling as an argument.

 

[Palpi]

How is grabbing, throwing, grabbing throwing a combo especially when it is character specific?

 

[M15t3R E]

Stalling is a non-issue. There is already a rule that covers it. Stop bringing it up.
If you must, make a new topic about changing the limit. Until it's changed, stop using stalling as an argument.

Stalling tactics are banned. Therefore, it's far from a non-issue.
But you're right- another topic should be created to address this cap which I believe is WAYYY too high.

 

[platomaker]

Personally I never understood the whole concept of a combo in Smash, even in melee. There are nice setups, but that's just about it.

 

[platomaker]

page 305. lol.

 

[Vulcan55]

It isn't stalling until 300%.
If your opponent continues, they are DQ-ed and forfeit the match. No issue there.

 

[M15t3R E]

That's the thing.
There's no real point in trying to stall beyond the 300% cap anyway. Who the hell needs the opponent at 300% before they can KO?

 

[XxBlackxX]

That's the thing.
There's no real point in trying to stall beyond the 300% cap anyway. Who the hell needs the opponent at 300% before they can KO?

exactly. since you can't use the infinite to stall, there no point in banning the thing. it doesn't over-centralize the game as a whole in any way.

 

[M15t3R E]

No, you can use the infinite to stall, because it can start working at 0%.

 

[XxBlackxX]

No, you can use the infinite to stall, because it can start working at 0%.

but there's a limit, it's 300%, and D3's cannot use infinites to "stall" beyond that precent.

 

[M15t3R E]

The cap should be 100-125%.
Otherwise, it can work as an easy 0 to death.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The cap might as well be 100-125%.
Otherwise, it can work as a 0 to death.

The idea is that it's a death-grab. If you set a cap that doesn't allow it to be a deathgrab you're banning the infinite for purposes beyond stalling.

So yeah, it IS a 0 to death, that's the point.

 

[XxBlackxX]

The cap should be 100-125%.
Otherwise, it can work as an easy 0 to death.

no. it's SUPPOSED to be a 0-death, and the damage cap is only to remove the stalling properties.

EDIT: adumbrodeus beat me to it lol

 

[bobson]

DK and Bowser can actually survive Dedede's bthrow and fthrow at 300% with stellar DI on FD provided that Dedede uses them at the end of the stage toward the opposite blast zone. They can also survive his uthrow.

Not really relevant, but I thought I'd point that out.

 

[Tornadith]

If the infinite chaingrab ISN'T banned, then I guess you have to ask the question:

What characters are the best at NOT getting in the infinite in the first place? Characters with good spacing and good camping ability would probably be able to avoid the infinite better than other characters with no camping or spacing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

DK and Bowser can actually survive Dedede's bthrow and fthrow at 300% with stellar DI on FD provided that Dedede uses them at the end of the stage toward the opposite blast zone. They can also survive his uthrow.

Not really relevant, but I thought I'd point that out.

Good point.

400!


Just kidding, at 300% and above, you're required to dashgrab with DDD against DK, otherwise you cannot downthrow.

Deathgrab preserved, now it effectively allows you to do it towards the blastzone that's closest and at the closest edge if you want.

 

[Yuna]

So you guys agree there should be some sort of limitation to DDD's infinite to prevent stalling?

Are you saying there isn't already? Which tournaments are you going to where D3 can just infinite people forever?

i tried spiking someone, they dodged and footstooled me. couldn't recover, but that's besides the point. some final smashes are not instant kills, they usually end in death

What part of "The game would be over-centralized around certain characters/Final Smashes" was copnfusing for you=

but you can survive them if you don't get hit.

Some cannot be avoided. Some can be comboed into. Some are Landmasters and Super Sonic.

Maybe you're right. I haven't been to a tournament.

Then what in Wii's name are you even in this thread and arguing what should and shouldn't be allowed at tournaments? What could possibly make you think you have the necessary knowledge, insight and experience to argue this stuff?

You evidently even know very little about Final Smashes. Do you even know how Final Smashes favor the loser?

So "Those who don't should just shut up and leave Smashboards", please tell me have you seen a Samus player enter a tournament?

What does this have to do with anything?

what do you mean by over-centralized by nature? and if smash balls were in would the game be over-centralized by nature?

Yes, because then you'd have no choice but to play a character with a great Final Smash and a great non-FS game. Not if you wanted to win. And that choice would be limited to a very small pool of characters.

is it nature to pick a character with a good final smash and a good non-final smash game just as its nature to pick those with advantages rather than disadvantages?

In Competitive gaming, we play to win. This game, without Final Smashes, has yet to become "Play as one of one, two or three or so characters or lose". With Final Smashes, it would be.

you wouldn't have to do anything, it would just be more factors to consider.

Again I ask: Why are you even here?

You've never been to a tournament. Thus, you are probably not a Competitive Smasher. Thus, you have no way of knowing how Competitive Smash or gaming works. Which is becoming exceedingly clear, plus the fact that you seem to have very little grasp on how Final Smashes work.

They favor the loser. That is ridiculous.

speaking of choice, if you pit a ness against a marth or Dedede, that limits the choice doesn't it?

You can counter-pick. Marth vs. DeDeDe is a close match-up so counterpicking isn't even necessary. You can still win without counter-picking. Put Smash Balls on and the characters you can counterpick, ever, are severely limited.

Falco becomes God Tier, by the way.

Which I think isn't strict enough.
With 300% as the cap, the infinite can still be used to stall for around 1 minute and 15 seconds on all 3 stocks. That means a potential 3.5 to 4 minutes of stalling in 1 match...

Is this what you're arguing now? Is it no longer "Ban it!" (or am I misremembering?)? Did you just change your position to "Fine, keep it. But have a lower ceiling"?

How is grabbing, throwing, grabbing throwing a combo especially when it is character specific?

Why would it matter whether or not it is character specific? Most combos are in Smash! Also, do you know what the word "combo" means?

No, you can use the infinite to stall, because it can start working at 0%.

Only against DK and Bowser. And by your own admission, it is a legit combo until DK and Bowser die from a throw from D3. So it is never stalling at 0%. Unless you're gonna whine about every single long combo, long chaingrab or lock in the game.

The cap should be 100-125%.
Otherwise, it can work as an easy 0 to death.

Yes, and? Don't play DK or Bowser against D3. They suck against him. Easy 0-death combos have never been banned. If you think those are unfair, just don't play Competitively.

Also, as Bobson points out, at 300%, Bowser and DK might not even die from D3's throws. So it is a totally legit cap. What if he grabs then at 250%? 275%? No comboing them for 50% or 25% extra damage because of your Scrubby sense of "honor" wherein no 0-death (or near-death) should be allowed?

If the infinite chaingrab ISN'T banned, then I guess you have to ask the question:

What characters are the best at NOT getting in the infinite in the first place? Characters with good spacing and good camping ability would probably be able to avoid the infinite better than other characters with no camping or spacing.

Or: Everyone except Donkey Kong and Bowser (and on Bowser, it's not really an infinite, anyway).




And now for emphasis:

I haven't been to a tournament.

But I'm gonna whine about how my way of playing Smash (with Smash Balls) on is better than yours because obviously, I know more about Competitive Smash than people who have actually been to tournaments!

I also have no grasp of how Smash Balls would over-centralize the game, even when it's been explained to me. I have no idea about how broken some FS:es are. I don't even know about how they favor the loser.

In fact, I know nothing about FS:es other than the fact that I love playing with them against my friends in 4-man Free-For-All friendlies where everyone should stand a chance at winning and have fun, fun, fun!

Now aren't you all just dying to turn Smash Balls on?

 

[Winston]

Which I think isn't strict enough.
With 300% as the cap, the infinite can still be used to stall for around 1 minute and 15 seconds on all 3 stocks. That means a potential 3.5 to 4 minutes of stalling in 1 match...

you mean 2.5 minutes, right?

Because if you infinite them 3 times then you've won.

That's besides the point of a DDD player having to rely on stalling to win the "unlosable" matchup.

 

[Yuna]

you mean 2.5 minutes, right?

Because if you infinite them 3 times then you've won.

That's besides the point of a DDD player having to rely on stalling to win the "unlosable" matchup.

And why the hell would you use to stall, anyway?

 

[Brinzy]

Hahaha, Yuna.

 

[XxBlackxX]

why the hell has this turned into a debate about SMASHBALLS lol.

 

[Tornadith]

I've changed my position from a "Infinite should be banned" to a "Infinite should be limited"

 

[Yuna]

Hahaha, Yuna.

To be fair (kinda), he wrote me a Visitor's Message (because he didn't know how to PM people) where it was made abundantly clear that he thought that what I meant when I said "FS:es favor the loser" was how you can respawn with a Smash Ball if you're behind enough (even though this doesn't apply to Competitive Brawl since we play with 3 stocks only, but how would he know that, having never been to a tournament, right? And apparently, he doesn't know it can be turned off).

So he knows a few things about Final Smashes. Yes I am being fair (kinda)!

 

[XxBlackxX]

I've changed my position from a "Infinite should be banned" to a "Infinite should be limited"

yes. there is already a % limit and that is 300%. if you're talking if limiting the number of grabs, that is stupid and unenforceable. might as well ban them totally or not at all.
in this case they shouldn't be banned at all because they don't over-centralize the game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How is grabbing, throwing, grabbing throwing a combo especially when it is character specific?

How is fair->fair->fair->dair a combo, especially when it's character specific and DI specific?

Wait a minute.....

 

[Yuna]

I've changed my position from a "Infinite should be banned" to a "Infinite should be limited"

This will never happen. Ban it completely because it's "Too good" or don't ban it at all instead of trying to limit it to a level where it's no longer "too good". We don't do that. Either something is too good and will ruin the game or it isn't. We don't go in and change the match-ups to a "tolerable level" just for fun.

That is anti-Competitive.

Unless you mean a limit to prevent stalling, for which a limit already exists.

 

[Brinzy]

To be fair (kinda), he wrote me a Visitor's Message (because he didn't know how to PM people) where it was made abundantly clear that he thought that what I meant when I said "FS:es favor the loser" was how you can respawn with a Smash Ball if you're behind enough (even though this doesn't apply to Competitive Brawl since we play with 3 stocks only, but how would he know that, having never been to a tournament, right? And apparently, he doesn't know it can be turned off).

So he knows a few things about Final Smashes. Yes I am being fair (kinda)!

.... Uh, wow.

Ok, so it was more than warranted at that rate.

 

[Yuna]

Ok, so it was more than warranted at that rate.

It is a person who has never been to a tournament trying to change the rules of Competitive (tournament) Smash despite knowing nothing about how it works and, apparently, very little about how Final Smashes and items in general work.

All bets are off.

 

[RDK]

nature v. choice?

How is grabbing, throwing, grabbing throwing a combo especially when it is character specific?

What? Is this post even serious?

I made that nice big rant for you all and this is what you choose to nitpick? It's not even a good nitpick. It just shows everyone how ignorant you are about game mechanics.

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

infinites are part of the downfall of the competitive smash scene. they keep new people out, and push current members of the community to other games. its unfortunate that people dont see this. i dont get why people are so reluctant to abandon this. how does it hurt the game?
stop with this "well lets ban all combos" bull ****. you know **** well its not the same thing.

 

[Vulcan55]

I think your post needs less explanations and reasoning. Like, holy ****, China wants their wall back, jeez.