The BBR is currently working towards reaching a final conclusion on Diddy Kong. This issue has divided the community for way too long and it’s time to address it, now that it’s a relatively quiet time tournament wise. We had both sides write up a short essay consisting of their main arguments and have had a final poll in the BBR to decide our official stance. The pro-ban side needs a 2/3 majority for Diddy to get banned, as always was the procedure for everything the BBR recommended to be banned. Note that at this very moment, the Diddy ban has gained a 2/3 majority in the BBR!
However, because this is such a major issue, we decided to let the community have a say in it as well. Below you’ll find the arguments presented by respectively the pro-ban side and the anti-ban side. Please read through these and make an informed decision. The results of this poll will count towards the BBR decision. One vote will be added for the side that reaches majority and an additional vote for every 2.5% past 50%.
Moderators are watching this thread closely. Spamming, flaming, trolling and especially the use of alternate accounts will be infracted without warning.
Pro-Ban Side
NEVER AGAIN
1. Diddy Kong consistently spawns items.
Diddy Kong can have as many as two bananas out at any time, while we otherwise ban bananas from competitive play. One might argue Peach also has a chance of pulling out an otherwise banned item, but the key difference here is that it’s not something she can rely on. Diddy will pull out a banana 100% of the time and will pull out another if he so chooses… 100% of the time. No luck, no randomness, just sheer brokenness. Item play is simply against the nature of the game, and it especially breaks team dynamics where Diddy is the only character with stage control to such a large degree.
One route to take is limiting the usage of his down+B, but this would be a surgical (A.K.A. BAD) change akin to saying Ice Climbers aren’t allowed to do grab infinites any more. Bananas are such a core part of Diddy’s being, that we feel the monkey should disappear alongside his fruit. It’s EVERYTHING or NOTHING and you’re either with us or against us.
2. Diddy Kong is unbeatable, especially when he has two bananas out.
This isn’t really debatable, as Mew2King has said this. Therefore, it is FACT.
3. Diddy Kong can infinite the entire cast.
Another issue that can be traced back to his bananas is that Diddy can single-handedly infinite the entire cast with them. Unlike the ICs infinites, Dixie does not have to be nearby and he only requires a single banana to pull this off, on top of this, Diddy is actually a good character. This isn’t some match up-specific tomfoolery such as Dedede’s infinites, no… he does this to EVERYONE!
Video evidence:
[yt]GSnNWkCgnQQ[/yt]
4. Diddy Kong breaks neutral stages.
Diddy Kong makes it so that stages like Final Destination and Smashville, otherwise perfectly fine and neutral, take on the nature of counter-picks in sets with him. If it weren’t for (arguably questionable) counter-picks such as Rainbow Cruise, Diddy wouldn’t lose to characters like MK ever. One might even argue liberal stage lists are damage control for the fact that Diddy would otherwise **** the few characters with a chance of beating him, Meta Knight being a prime example.
5. Diddy is the primary character not named Meta Knight to solo tournaments.
Both Gnes and ADHD have demonstrated that Diddy can solo his way through tournaments in the US, as has Luigi Player in Europe. In monetary winnings, he might even do better than Meta Knight… seeing how Gnes ended up winning the MLG season finale, while M2K was the initial favourite. When looking at the Pound tournament series, the amount of 1st place prize money awarded to solo Diddy players is ~$1323, while the amount of 1st place money awarded to solo Meta Knight mains is exactly $0 (thanks go out to ChiboSempai for the math). What’s more, Mew2King practices exactly 8.1562234 times more than the next person on the “amount of practice” tier list, yet has dropped several sets to Diddy. The only way to explain this is that Diddy bull****s his way to victory.
As you can see, Gnes doesn’t need many more points to pass M2K. Smells like FRAUD (and a particular monkey throwing doodoo).
6. Diddy makes people quit the game.
Having to learn to play with items for just this matchup, as well as having to put up with a hyperactive screaming monkey, is more than should be expected from competitive players. This isn’t healthy for the competitive scene, and will in the long run destroy it, as more and more people realize Diddy is their only shot at winning money.
7. Sakurai himself says he failed to balance Diddy Kong.
The BBR got its hands on a rather obscure interview with Sakurai, which speaks for itself. Developer’s intent has always been important to us, so this is a major reason to ban Diddy Kong.
Anti-Ban Side
1. Diddy having items is OKAY
While Diddy Kong may spawn items; however, so does Peach, but unlike Diddy she has a random element to it which strays from competitiveness. Diddy Kong's spawning of items has nothing to do with our competitive decision to play without items as a randomly spawning element. As a projectile, in comparison to Falco's lasers, one must pull them out, pick them up and then use them appropriately - a significant commitment.
2. Diddy Kong doesn't hard counter everyone! He makes us see even more characters in competitive play!
Diddy Kong, unlike Meta Knight, has a slew of match ups that are arguably in his disadvantage; his existence in the meta game promotes character diversity (at Meta Knight banned tournaments). Real life examples in high level tournament play include San's Ike, and there are still the likes of Peach, Luigi and R.O.B. who do exceedingly well against him. Character's such as Yoshi can circumnavigate bananas whilst chain grabbing him.
Diddy Kong in general is very easily countered and manageable by separating him from his bananas. He has weaknesses in kill power and lacks kill set ups outside of bananas.
3. Our current rule set favours Diddy Kong too much!
Diddy Kong's effectiveness comes from the stages available to him, such as Final Destination. With the removal of such stages, his accessibility to broken elements of play (such as infinites) are drastically reduced.
Diddy Kong is a perfectly competitive character with the removal of bananas (which is arguably his most proliferating feature). With the likes of LGLs implemented to reduce the effectiveness of Meta Knight, the banning of Diddy's Down B or applying an "Item Thrown Limit" will allow him to remain in the game without centralising competitive play. However, an ITL has counter plays that may stretch the limits of fairness in terms of what a Diddy Kong may be forced into positional wise.
4. Diddy's ahead of the game!
Diddy Kong's metagame is one of the most advanced at this point of time because of the likes of ADHD. Other characters haven't had the opportunity to develop.
While Diddy is advanced, there is a general widespread lack of Diddy Kong mains, and most player's have not been able to develop effective anti-diddy strategies.
He is a gimmick character, who once figured out and learned to counter will dwindle in popularity and dominance in tournaments.
5. Players need to GET BETTER!
Diddy Kong requires practice and effort to compete against, and the majority of the smash community are lazy and are not willing to work at the game and are likely to prefer banning a character rather than learning to counter it.
If we want our game to be seen as a competitive fighter without being a massive widespread joke, we must NOT ban Diddy Kong because there is a high likelihood that we'll just want to ban Falco after that, or Snake, or Marth, because they're also really good. Players will come to hate that they can't touch Falco's bread and want to ban that too. Our community needs to man up and stop faltering on the path to glory!
However, because this is such a major issue, we decided to let the community have a say in it as well. Below you’ll find the arguments presented by respectively the pro-ban side and the anti-ban side. Please read through these and make an informed decision. The results of this poll will count towards the BBR decision. One vote will be added for the side that reaches majority and an additional vote for every 2.5% past 50%.
Moderators are watching this thread closely. Spamming, flaming, trolling and especially the use of alternate accounts will be infracted without warning.
Pro-Ban Side
NEVER AGAIN
1. Diddy Kong consistently spawns items.
Diddy Kong can have as many as two bananas out at any time, while we otherwise ban bananas from competitive play. One might argue Peach also has a chance of pulling out an otherwise banned item, but the key difference here is that it’s not something she can rely on. Diddy will pull out a banana 100% of the time and will pull out another if he so chooses… 100% of the time. No luck, no randomness, just sheer brokenness. Item play is simply against the nature of the game, and it especially breaks team dynamics where Diddy is the only character with stage control to such a large degree.
One route to take is limiting the usage of his down+B, but this would be a surgical (A.K.A. BAD) change akin to saying Ice Climbers aren’t allowed to do grab infinites any more. Bananas are such a core part of Diddy’s being, that we feel the monkey should disappear alongside his fruit. It’s EVERYTHING or NOTHING and you’re either with us or against us.
2. Diddy Kong is unbeatable, especially when he has two bananas out.
This isn’t really debatable, as Mew2King has said this. Therefore, it is FACT.
3. Diddy Kong can infinite the entire cast.
Another issue that can be traced back to his bananas is that Diddy can single-handedly infinite the entire cast with them. Unlike the ICs infinites, Dixie does not have to be nearby and he only requires a single banana to pull this off, on top of this, Diddy is actually a good character. This isn’t some match up-specific tomfoolery such as Dedede’s infinites, no… he does this to EVERYONE!
Video evidence:
[yt]GSnNWkCgnQQ[/yt]
4. Diddy Kong breaks neutral stages.
Diddy Kong makes it so that stages like Final Destination and Smashville, otherwise perfectly fine and neutral, take on the nature of counter-picks in sets with him. If it weren’t for (arguably questionable) counter-picks such as Rainbow Cruise, Diddy wouldn’t lose to characters like MK ever. One might even argue liberal stage lists are damage control for the fact that Diddy would otherwise **** the few characters with a chance of beating him, Meta Knight being a prime example.
5. Diddy is the primary character not named Meta Knight to solo tournaments.
Both Gnes and ADHD have demonstrated that Diddy can solo his way through tournaments in the US, as has Luigi Player in Europe. In monetary winnings, he might even do better than Meta Knight… seeing how Gnes ended up winning the MLG season finale, while M2K was the initial favourite. When looking at the Pound tournament series, the amount of 1st place prize money awarded to solo Diddy players is ~$1323, while the amount of 1st place money awarded to solo Meta Knight mains is exactly $0 (thanks go out to ChiboSempai for the math). What’s more, Mew2King practices exactly 8.1562234 times more than the next person on the “amount of practice” tier list, yet has dropped several sets to Diddy. The only way to explain this is that Diddy bull****s his way to victory.
As you can see, Gnes doesn’t need many more points to pass M2K. Smells like FRAUD (and a particular monkey throwing doodoo).
6. Diddy makes people quit the game.
Having to learn to play with items for just this matchup, as well as having to put up with a hyperactive screaming monkey, is more than should be expected from competitive players. This isn’t healthy for the competitive scene, and will in the long run destroy it, as more and more people realize Diddy is their only shot at winning money.
7. Sakurai himself says he failed to balance Diddy Kong.
The BBR got its hands on a rather obscure interview with Sakurai, which speaks for itself. Developer’s intent has always been important to us, so this is a major reason to ban Diddy Kong.
"Since I have no plans to create a new game with Nintendo, I can finally tell everyone the story behind some of Brawl's design choices. As many people know, I put my heart and soul into Melee. I did everything I could do make that game be as deep as possible. I was working at least sixty hours a week, and any game-change had to come through me for it to get implemented. By the time Nintendo asked me to make Brawl, I thought that the understanding of me having the final say was going to be the case again. Unfortunately, Nintendo decided that they wanted Brawl to be their marketing platform, like the Jump battle games staring manga characters.
I never intended to put Sonic, Wario, Pit, or Diddy into my game, but Nintendo wanted to hype new game franchises that were coming out. They figured increasing the name recognition of characters would increase sales. [Editor's note: It did.] Whenever I was coming up with the character list, I remember clearly getting a phone call from Mr. Yamauchi. He told me that no matter what, Pit must be in the game, since they were planning on resurrecting the franchise on the Wii at the time. At the time, I thought this was a great idea! So we did our best to create the character, making him rather unique. After he was announced to all the fans enjoyment, I received a memo from the higher ups with more requests. I quickly lost creative control.
Nintendo had just forged a relationship with Sega, and so they wanted to make the crossovers with Sonic sell, and the only way to do that was to increase the Sonic Brand. It's obvious to everyone that played the story mode, that Sonic was squeezed in to the narrative. This detracted from the overall composition of the game, and caused a total loss of focus. As you all know from my previous games, I have always loved having smaller character bases, because for every additional character you add, balance becomes impossible.
Many people have asked me why Meta Knight was so strong of a character. I hated how much the marketing was ruining all the meticulous balancing I had done, so I decided to make a character that would easily beat those other characters with very little effort. Even the story mode is completely trivial with Meta Knight. This worked extremely well against all of them but Diddy Kong. Try as I might, there was absolutely no way to reduce the effectiveness of Diddy Kong's bananas in the game, without removing them completely, which Marketing wouldn't let me do. The last three weeks of development were a constant struggle of breaking the engine, only to have Diddy Kong remain the same. Z/L Cancelling, Wave Dashing, Crouch Cancelling, and so forth were all removed in attempts to keep the game fun, and competitive."
Anti-Ban Side
1. Diddy having items is OKAY
While Diddy Kong may spawn items; however, so does Peach, but unlike Diddy she has a random element to it which strays from competitiveness. Diddy Kong's spawning of items has nothing to do with our competitive decision to play without items as a randomly spawning element. As a projectile, in comparison to Falco's lasers, one must pull them out, pick them up and then use them appropriately - a significant commitment.
2. Diddy Kong doesn't hard counter everyone! He makes us see even more characters in competitive play!
Diddy Kong, unlike Meta Knight, has a slew of match ups that are arguably in his disadvantage; his existence in the meta game promotes character diversity (
Diddy Kong in general is very easily countered and manageable by separating him from his bananas. He has weaknesses in kill power and lacks kill set ups outside of bananas.
3. Our current rule set favours Diddy Kong too much!
Diddy Kong's effectiveness comes from the stages available to him, such as Final Destination. With the removal of such stages, his accessibility to broken elements of play (such as infinites) are drastically reduced.
Diddy Kong is a perfectly competitive character with the removal of bananas (which is arguably his most proliferating feature). With the likes of LGLs implemented to reduce the effectiveness of Meta Knight, the banning of Diddy's Down B or applying an "Item Thrown Limit" will allow him to remain in the game without centralising competitive play. However, an ITL has counter plays that may stretch the limits of fairness in terms of what a Diddy Kong may be forced into positional wise.
4. Diddy's ahead of the game!
Diddy Kong's metagame is one of the most advanced at this point of time because of the likes of ADHD. Other characters haven't had the opportunity to develop.
While Diddy is advanced, there is a general widespread lack of Diddy Kong mains, and most player's have not been able to develop effective anti-diddy strategies.
He is a gimmick character, who once figured out and learned to counter will dwindle in popularity and dominance in tournaments.
5. Players need to GET BETTER!
Diddy Kong requires practice and effort to compete against, and the majority of the smash community are lazy and are not willing to work at the game and are likely to prefer banning a character rather than learning to counter it.
If we want our game to be seen as a competitive fighter without being a massive widespread joke, we must NOT ban Diddy Kong because there is a high likelihood that we'll just want to ban Falco after that, or Snake, or Marth, because they're also really good. Players will come to hate that they can't touch Falco's bread and want to ban that too. Our community needs to man up and stop faltering on the path to glory!