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Masmasher@

Smash Lord
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Lol low attacks are generally supposed to be unsafe.
Sigh... the point is that SRK shouldnt be generalized as a whole. Really SRK hates on EVERY FIGHTING GAME. If you think our communities get it bad. You should see what they do to the arcana heart community. There are some people on there that hate MVC2 or CVS2 or the king of fighters series. People like what they like and hate what they hate. The only person of ignorance is asian mike. Hes a ****ing idiot. most of them are good natured and it least understand why the communities play the games they do. Just do you.
 

ZoSo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2003
Messages
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Melee
If a fighting game has to have elements of SF2 (first popular fightin' game mirite?) then smash isn't one...
I would actually argue otherwise, but I won't.

Smash is a fighter, the only true difference between smash and other fights is an increase focus on zoning. Zoning takes a much smaller place in other fighting games, but in Smash it is essential
Super Turbo is pretty much straight zoning the whole time, especially in matchups between fireball characters or fireball versus non-fireball.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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That depends on whether you think true fighters are born or made. I believe fighters are made and defined by the community, so Smash (particularly Melee) is a legit fighter imo. You could even make a single Mario Party minigame competitive if it had a large enough community and deep enough gameplay.
I'm talking about competitive fighting games, not making other games competitive in general. Also, Mario Party is a terrible example. Its like saying the mini games in Barbies Pony Adventures and Pokemon Stadium 2 could be competitive games if the fan base was large enough. Come on, really? Fighting games are made.

Smash was changed using random exploits in its physics engine, and smarter methods of play. People found fun in learning these new techniques and challenging others. None of this makes the game a fighter. It just has a lot of similarities to one because of all the improvements the game's community made on it.

Smash is a fighter, the only true difference between smash and other fights is an increase focus on zoning. Zoning takes a much smaller place in other fighting games, but in Smash it is essential, to some characters more than others such as Falco, the Links, and Snake. Where you are on Jungle Japes is going to drastically alter how the game carries on from there, based on both players ability to handle the stage correctly.
Yomi still takes place in Smash in the exact same way as it does in other fighters.
Smash was made by its creators to be a game you could play with a ****load of people and it serves its purpose well. I've had more fun with this game than any others I've ever played.

As a fighter, I think it also works. I will say, though, that it is one of the most unconventional fighters ever made. An increased focus on zoning being the only true difference? Are you kidding me?

First, because of how limited movement is in traditional fighters, zoning is SO much more important in those games. The 2D fighter community is all about that kind of spacing. There are any platforms to help with approaches. There is only jump in, walk forward, or tip your moves for safe pokes. Zoning is alot more important in SF/GG than you think it is. Soul Calibur could be an exception though, with its 8-direction movement system. 3D fighters are a different story entirely. :laugh:

There is NO other competitive game that has a movement system as open-ended as smash. Learning how to work platforms for approach/defense and 'mindgamey' purposes. Wavedashing and its multiple variants for combo extentions, safe edge returns, spacing, and just plain flash. Movement is one huge aspect of this game that sets it apart from the rest.

Secondly:

Smash took things to a whole level by taking away the health bar and implementing the percentage aspect. This indirectly lead to a VERY important technique we've come to know as edge-guarding. It was a completely new and creative concept that helped propel the game competitively. It gave the game more depth when it came to move filtering and decision-making. Make the wrong choice and pick the wrong move, you fail and they come back. They then use this failure to their advantage. The push-pull scenarios were also augmented through the use of movement and edge-guarding; creating the illusion of lag to force your opponent to commit to a move then punishing.

I will admit that the game got more SF like as it developed...with high damage combos off spaced hits, zoning wars, mixups and the like. In my opinion, it still isn't a true fighter. It still is my favourite game of all time though. :)
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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melee isnt a fighter.

it is a game consisting of elements that resemble or parallel some element that are apperent in a fighter. it however lacks many of the important aspects and additionally brings its to the table.

why it bothers people so much whether or not its labeled as a fighter though i will never understand.
 

metaXzero

Smash Champion
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Under the ground.
Smash as a whole is hard to be classified in an existing genre. Party game isn't really a genre since any game with a good multiplayer element can be a party game. While it has many Platformer elements, it can't be filed there since the point isn't "get from point A to B" (while many game genres do that, this is an essential part of platformers). And unlike the traditional fighter, Smash isn't about hitting your opponent until they are defeated, but forcing your opponent past the blast zones.

IMO, it is its own genre.
 

CRASHiC

Smash Hero
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Smash was made by its creators to be a game you could play with a ****load of people and it serves its purpose well. I've had more fun with this game than any others I've ever played.
Rule one of critiseum, never judge off of intent, because intent is always unknown, no matter what the creator says afterwords.

First, because of how limited movement is in traditional fighters, zoning is SO much more important in those games. The 2D fighter community is all about that kind of spacing. There are any platforms to help with approaches. There is only jump in, walk forward, or tip your moves for safe pokes. Zoning is alot more important in SF/GG than you think it is. Soul Calibur could be an exception though, with its 8-direction movement system. 3D fighters are a different story entirely.
I play Guilty Gear and Blazblue, not only that, but I main A.B.A. a charecter based on spacing and V-13, a charecter that is zoning hell. However, spacing does not equal zoning. It does in a 2d fighter, because where you on a field is in releation to your opponent and the corners only. In Smash, a fighter must no only worry about how far he is from his opponent, but his location on the field compared to ledges, platforms, obstacles, walls, etc. The amount of zoning during many of Pokemon Stadiums zones far surpass that of either Guilty Gear or Blazblue, because you are not just using your attacks to create zoning and spacing traps, but you are also using the stage itself as a weapon.

Smash took things to a whole level by taking away the health bar and implementing the percentage aspect. This indirectly lead to a VERY important technique we've come to know as edge-guarding. It was a completely new and creative concept that helped propel the game competitively. It gave the game more depth when it came to move filtering and decision-making. Make the wrong choice and pick the wrong move, you fail and they come back. They then use this failure to their advantage. The push-pull scenarios were also augmented through the use of movement and edge-guarding; creating the illusion of lag to force your opponent to commit to a move then punishing.
Ring outs are nothing new. There are ring outs in Soul Calibur and other 3d fighters all the time, except there is no chance of recovery in those games.
You also make an assumption here about purpose again. Do you honestly believe that the developers thought people were just going to stand in the middle of the stage and let their opponent get back on? At any level of play, I knew to prevent them from coming back on.
 

arbustos

Smash Journeyman
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The Past and Pending
i've argued in smash's defense for months with these people. my concern isn't its genre, because a label is only as important as you make it (does it really matter at this point?). i like to call it a platform fighter, kind of an evolution or offshoot that replaces k.o.'s with ringouts as the primary means of victory and introduces the aspect of recovering from them in accordance. i equated this to the evolution seen in samsho's introduction of weapons and so on.

i haven't seen your thread, but the people i talked to object on the grounds that every fighter must have hit levels and a lifebar mechanic of some sort whereby you lose when you take enough damage (the lifebar does not have to be on the display). this is in addition to the standard format of head-to-head combat of various means, but rules out things like goldeneye knives only as a "fighter." i also personally ruled out the slippery slope hypothetical of wrestlers, sumo sims, and boxing games being considered fighters because they're already sports games centered on the ruleset of a rl competition.

we disagree, but w/e. my real problem, and the reason i joined the debate, was because they generally have very little respect for the series. maybe one in every ten people has actually played it on a higher level and/or understood its merits. someone actually told me you can pick up and "master' melee in a couple of weeks. sure thing, pal. basically, this community either accepts and enjoys traditional fighters or pleads ignorance, whereas srk does not only those but also ridicules the other.


protip: avoid conflict from now on, because no one is going to change their minds.

edit it seems the first page states ^ this for me. anyway go post count
 

metaXzero

Smash Champion
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Under the ground.
Well the 64 one is actually Green Greens minus a platform or two and the tree.
Yeah. I know it's most likely just a prototype of Dreamland, but it has enough differences that it'd be an interesting stage.

Just like I know the Brawl's How-to-play is just on the SSE's stadium and layout-wise, it'd just be a larger FD, but I'd still like to play there normally.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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lol I didnt think it'd wind up being that long

Oh man, Another one of these threads. Gotta get my "troll mod points" XD. I probably could sit down for like, 15 minutes and hit all the points, but I've come to the conclusion that people dont tend to read on here (which is one thing that, although the SRK community does a good job of, I'm convinced the smash community does a BETTER job of doing).

__

One quick thing I'd like to throw out there, I could prove that smash (all 3) are actually fighting games since it falls under the 3 criteria that are in fighting games. Im not going to waste the time to do it again because everytime I do so, pretty much everybody comes behind me with a blind "smash is so much different than every other game, so that CANT be true."

But in all actuality, smash is a fighting game, it's just so easy to pick up that it is generally classified as a party game.

__

Another thing I'd like to point out that you can literally take for a grain of salt (Like literally), is the fact that SRK.com does not equal the "Fighting Game Community", as it's collectively called. The reason why I say that is because there are people out there that, for better or for worse, are actually trying to bridge the gap between smash and the FGC. Especially down here in the south. (You people would be surprised how things go in GA, for example).

The main community of srk is where everybody is having their problems, and that community is pretty much on par with the like of 4chan and what.

I'd honestly put a good bit of the smash community (alot of the lower, lesser known people) in that category, too. But that's another arguement for another day.

My point is that the way people go on around here makes it seem like they're ALL the bad guys. That's not how it goes, trust me.

(I mean realistically, if you're not playing a big name capcom game on SRK, "your game is trash." If you dont believe me, listen to the EVO livestream and pay attention to what games they know little-to-nothing about. They're all NON capcom games (SC4, GGAC, BB, etc etc)

___

Anyway. Now to talk about some quotes.
The people there are not going to be nice to you, and you won't convert anyone - things just get worse every couple of months when another smashboarder decides to be a missionary and preach the smash gospel.

Don't sweat it. Your community is dope, high level smash looks pretty dope. Let the haters hate. I'm sure most of the top players in the Capcom community respect it while the scrubs are the ones who hate."
It's ironic. With all the time I've been in the smash community; from the beginning to now, I personally get MUCH more hate on here than I ever have on SRK.

It's all personal experiences.
I think the funniest part there is, that swf has almost double the members of srk and we only play what, one series with 3 games where 1 is not mainstream competitive, while they play, I dunno how god **** many lol. And post-brawl it was around 60-80k members here. Sure is a sucker game and community with 6-7 million buyers and thiiiisss much competitive players, eh? =) I'm also interested in their tournament attendance lol, compared to our non-sponsored events (lol genesis).
You're forgetting that a good number of people on SWF

1) Dont play any smash at all.
2) Play brawl.

Realistically, you're also forgetting that a ridiculous amount of people on here have alts/dead accounts, etc etc.

Second, for your tourney answer (I love this pic)

Final Round XII, 2nd largest tourney in the nation. (2nd to EVO).

Completely unsponsored (Ran by Shin Blanka, I think he actually is going to TRY to get it sponsored this year).

SF4 bracket had 256 people. This is they capped the bracket at 256, where they only took pre-regs and (until a 30 min call before) denied day-of signups.

..... That picture is just so dumb hilarious everytime I look at it.
Smash isn't a fighting game. Its a party game. It has elements of a fighter, and shares alot of SF's basic principles when it comes to things like risk/reward, punishing, decision making, zoning, etc. I suggest keeping them separate and not trying force our appreciation for smash down their throats. Its hard to explain it at all unless they play it or something. : /
On the side, rayn, I wanna tell you dont try to push any anti-smash arguements on SWF. You'll only get greeted by masses of people who worship smash and refuse to believe anything that goes against it. I'm just trying to save you future trouble.

__

Now for your post, again *points all the way up top*, I actually could prove to you smash IS a fighting game. The things that alot of people dont like about it are

1) The game mechanics, for better or for worse (stuff such as the ability to do an attack the opposite direction and get a reward, sometimes better than the norm)

2) The fact that smash DOES take a ridiculous amount of rules to play a tourney match, alot of which cant be setup out of the box.

Beyond those 2 points, arguing that smash isnt the worst thing in the world when there are games like Scarlet Weather Rhapsody floating around.

...Yes, I pulled a random japanese doujin game out of my ***, but note that I pulled one that gets some degree of tourney play.
Wow, you idiots... the OP is asking us to show a little empathy because SRK members are opinionated and so are we. Smashers going to srk and sounding like scrubs just makes smashers lose respect as a whole, and it creates a barrier.
QFT.

The big thing about this quote is that both sides are really opinionated. That's the thing that alot of people in the smash community dont really think when they talk about..... well really anything. (I.e. this topic, region bias, matchup discussion, etc etc)

Who cares if smashboards is bigger? SRK is still respected as the #1 fighting game community. We are the smash community, which not only consists of competitive fighting game tournaments, but also stuff like HRC, Pokeballs, Brawl+, and and a lower age demographic.
Ya cant argue against that.


Looking at the thread, it just looks like srk has been through it before and wants the monotony to stop.
Pretty much. I mean, the trolls on there go about it the wrong way, but that's all they want.

It happens around here, too. I mean ****, I cant lie. When I see somebody ask how to wavedash, needle cancel, or something of that effect, I want them to die sometimes.

It happens.
SRK has to have some of the most ignorant mother ****ers on the Internet. There's no point in trying to argue with them. Absolutely none.
Again, it really comes down to experience. I mean, more-often-than-not, that's how I feel on these forums.

Infact, I'm putting money on I'm going to get some of it for this post.

(And on top of that, it'll come from somebody who's biased and actually didnt read beyond the first paragraph or so.)
yeah, the only way this will stop is if both sides is if we reach a equal term.....but with the release of Dissidia, this argument might get worse.
.......
L-O-L

It's fun to post there. I like writing one long post and then seeing the people there get defensive for 5 pages straight.
QFT. *nods*

We don't need SRK's approval. However, so long as there is a Smash subforum on SRK, then Smash players should post there to promote their game. Nothing wrong with that.
There's a slight problem with that suggestion.

That forum you're talking about is a Brawl forum. There is no melee forum

I mean there's an obvious fix for it, I just wanted to kick that in your face AZ. :D
Basically, smash has more depth since strategy goes beyond 'do I do the high good attack or the safe mid/low attack?'
Besides the blatant favoritism that's in this post, can you REALLY say that when sheik's strategy vs half the cast is

1) Grab
2) D.throw
3) Repeat 1-2 for a while
4) F.air.

And that's "the accepted, legitimate" strategy?

__

Ok, jokes aside (if you want to call that a joke), arguing depth vs depth is really opinion for 2 reasons.

1) You have actually define a game's depth, and realistically that changes from person to person.
-Some people try to argue that stuff like game inputs add depth, where others disregard that only consider strategy vs strategy.

2) Talking about smash specifically, talking about it's depth compared to a majority of the other fighting games can be called an arguement of variables vs absolutes.
-Falco's lasers are (in general) going to be annoying, until a random line of flyguys come through vs "If I jump, I will get SRK'd. The end."


**************************


 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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I dont mod melee discussion, just all of the character forums.
(A.k.a., I cant)

__

But there's nothing really going on wrong yet. I honestly think that some good can and will come out of this thread.

... sure some people are going to get shot, but that tends to happen in situations like this.

__

And besides, if I could close the thread on that, I wouldnt be given people a real chance to debate or argue. I'd just be being a "dictator" about it.

And as much as I'd love to believe I'm right (and trust me, I reaaaaaaaally like to do that), I know for a fact it really comes down to opinion, preference, and experience.

*shrug* Always gotta give people a *fair* chance to throw their 10 cents in.

 

victra♥

crystal skies
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
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Slippi.gg
victra#0
Dogy, you're an awesome mod. Like, legit.

I just want you to know that. I don't remember the last time a mod said/did that.
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
Administrator
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People don't usually ask. They just assume we aren't watching/forgot to close it.
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
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I Mod Melee Disc, and I like all discussion even if it's bad (For or Against Melee). As long as it doesn't stray from topic/spam/flame I try to let all threads have their chance (Rather sad no one read my previous post in the thread though :().

Threads been pretty good so far, DogySamich makes the best posts on these threads :)
 

wool

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
596
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Washington D.C.
Why does everyone care if it's a fighter or not? It really doesn't matter. I don't even see the point in posting a thread there. It seemed obvious the result would be a 100 page topic on how Smash is/isn't a fighter. It's a good game. We like it. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

Anyway my opinion is that it is a fighter, but it is sort of a joke fighter, if you get my drift.
 

Tomato Kirby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
582
Wow, in about the past 2 hours I spent, I visisted the thread that fullynick (OP) linked to, stumbled into Jack Keiser's ISP discussion (he had a debate with Keits et al. over whether to ban certain items or not; at SRK, I just realized how their community has one of the most liberal opinions for items), then returned to the thread.

We could send some serious goodwill ambassasdors, although a troll would probably foil them in short order.
 

`DNS`

Smash Lord
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
1,042
Location
Brooklyn, New York
Hi, I don't post here much but I lurk quite a bit. I play SFIV (Sakura Main), SCIV, and most of all, Super Smash Bros Brawl.
 

y2kbakura

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
375
Location
Springfield,MA
Smash isn't a fighting game. Its a party game. It has elements of a fighter, and shares alot of SF's basic principles when it comes to things like risk/reward, punishing, decision making, zoning, etc. I suggest keeping them separate and not trying force our appreciation for smash down their throats. Its hard to explain it at all unless they play it or something. : /
this man said it the best, i play a bit of everything Street Figther,Smash,Tekken and smash is a good game it has elements of a figthing game but its not quite there yet. As more people realize this the communities will get along better
 

wool

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
596
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Washington D.C.
this man said it the best, i play a bit of everything Street Figther,Smash,Tekken and smash is a good game it has elements of a figthing game but its not quite there yet. As more people realize this the communities will get along better
Why does it matter?
 

azianraven

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
342
Location
Gainesville, FL
I feel like Dogy goes extremely overboard in his posts (in a good way, totally opens my eyes) and it's just dust in the wind later ><

Unfortunately, the real problem is both communities as a whole don't play/understand/prefer each others game and you can't change that. People like to stick with what they are comfortable with and like and when one person decides to talk out of their *** about another game, the other community (mostly SWF) gets alot of rap for it.

I personally try to stay out of the "accept smash guyzzz" preaching. It never helped anyone and never will, sadly enough.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Is it worth it Dogy? Both sites won't listen to anything in a way.
Yeah, but you know good and **** well that because of how the whole GA community works I cant sit around and act like I dont have a clue of how this whole thing CAN work.
Can't we all just have fun with our own games and shut up?
You can if you "live the sheltered life" or you just absolutely dont care (in the case of a VAST majority of the smash community).

The ones who really have to worry are the ones who play smash (either or), and other games; people who are basically caught in the cross fire.

.... unless you're some poor soul who plays Brawl and Arcana Heart... and then..... -laughs hysterically- Woooo. XD


I feel like Dogy goes extremely overboard in his posts (in a good way, totally opens my eyes) and it's just dust in the wind later ><

Unfortunately, the real problem is both communities as a whole don't play/understand/prefer each others game and you can't change that. People like to stick with what they are comfortable with and like and when one person decides to talk out of their *** about another game, the other community (mostly SWF) gets alot of rap for it.

I personally try to stay out of the "accept smash guyzzz" preaching. It never helped anyone and never will, sadly enough.
*looks up* Yeah, I can see the "overboard". You'd be surprised, I actually try to keep things short because I know most people wont read EVERYTHING I have to say, and I know most people really dont care. (And honestly, I dont blame them. I hate reading my own posts half the time. XD)

But you're right about the problem, everybody either preferring their game or just flat out not understanding others. That's perfectly fine. I honestly believe that what causes it to blow out of proportion is when people believe their game is the best and all other games are unarguably inferior to it.

The problem with that being that alot of people dont realize that there is no "best" game. Period. Melee is definitely included in this list

Because where one person says their game is great, another person can reasonably argue that it's a game's fault. If you realistically look at any game that is played in tourney (real played, not a super random side event), you can point out this kinda stuff all across the board.

And it's not even a "all games are created equal" kind-of arguement, it's just that no matter how you look at it, some people just will not like what makes up a specific game.

___

Just for you AR, I'll stop from going "extremely overboard" for now. ^_^
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
Administrator
Premium
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Only cause Smash = AiB + Smashboards now. At any given moment there are about 500-1000 people on both SWF/AiB. Basically comparable to SRK (though not really, SRK has from about 2,000 - 3,500 on at a time since SFIV came out, so I give them props for that, but I also don't see that amount of users, a large portion of which are guests, to stick around).

Regardless, no one should care what SRK thinks. We have our community. They have theirs. We built our completely independently of them and are among the most successful of any "fighting" game in terms of numbers.
 

kataklysm336

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
62
Honestly their ignorance is the most annoying part. Sure some of them are nice and understanding, but the mass are just ignorant *******s. Sorry if that is not a nice thing to say, but it is the truth. Anyone who talks about a race, creed, or so on as being inferior would be considered an *******, and the same applies here.

They ban infinites and the like just as we do, then they turn around and say "you should adapt". I believe they are just over generalizing the smash community as noobs, which is most certainly not the case. I don't see how they can say that we watered Smash down and made it worse, when all that was done was to make it resemble standard fighting games like Street Fighter, MvC, Soul Caliber and the like.

Their hatred of the game stems from the ignorance of what smash is, and the more they talk the more annoying it is to read.

/angry rant
 

S.G.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
286
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USC
For lack of a better term
who cares?
It's not like people who play smash are going to feel embarrassed about their game and not attend as many tourneyss or play any less because Melee is seen as being "under" other "fighting games," nor vice versa.
I found the first 5 pages of the thread hilarious. You have over emotional people completely raging against one another in concerns to a video games stance in a video game community - might I add in the most hilarious way possible.

Unless they were actively and drastically changing the attendance of tourneys or competitive plays, who cares what they think? I'm pretty sure in the real sports world (prays video game in the olympics argument does not come up) you'll have people protesting that Football v. Swimming v. Basketball v. Golf are/aren't sports because of this, that, and the other.

And to throw in a very very vaguely related quote that I feel can relate to this
Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive

so, oh lovely Smash world forums viewers, keep smashing
 
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