Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[NO-IDea]

cancelled zair is actually handy. if you keep cancelling it, the foe thinks u arnt capable of doing it right so they will come within distance. simple tricks work WONDERS if u plan it right

lol, mind games. "I'm not good!" 30 seconds in, zair ****.

Knock-back ≠ hitstun. N-air really isn't that great. I think a retreating d-air would be better. Any attack after n-air can be shielded, and landing in front of your opponent may end up being a shield-grab.



I know how to use z-air properly. I was just asking what you meant by "canceled z-air," but Xyro already covered that one.

To each his own. And retreating dair works well too, especially as an option vs small characters, but that too can be shield-grabbed =P. Yes, dair spaces itself already when then hit lands on its shield... but there's not really a proper way to land dair on someone grounded without risking a shield grab. If any would like to oppose this, please make a video showing a proper samus dair on a character who shields and is unable to shield grab. Be sure to remember to DI away when dair hits!

And my response was not addressed to you, rather to Smoom. Sorry for the confusion. I know that you know how to use zair. XD

 

[Crystanium]

To each his own. And retreating dair works well too, especially as an option vs small characters, but that too can be shield-grabbed =P. Yes, dair spaces itself already when then hit lands on its shield... but there's not really a proper way to land dair on someone grounded without risking a shield grab. If any would like to oppose this, please make a video showing a proper samus dair on a character who shields and is unable to shield grab. Be sure to remember to DI away when dair hits!

D-air can never be shield-grabbed if you are retreating with it. Just running up to your opponent and using d-air will slightly push your opponent back, but if it's shielded, you'll get shield-grabbed, unless you're Xyro. I don't know how the heck he spot-dodges shortly after. D-air just seems to have a bit too much lag to make your opponent shield-grab. If you use a retreating d-air, you shouldn't be getting grabbed, or there's really no point in using d-air on a grounded opponent. I don't have a video, and my Wii isn't working, so that's not going to happen. You can visualize the method for yourself, if you wish.

 

[Xyro77]

I don't know how the heck he spot-dodges shortly after D-air.

they call me Allan "xyro" "buffer master" Sims

 

[Cherry64]

10lulz
I wonders if Samus can get Nair to Dair as a combo if the percents line up
it ALWAYS feels like it's going to work but I barely miss
it works best at low percents though I'm going to try doing it in training mode but the means a fully refreshed Nair and Dair...this actually shouldn't affect the results much anyway because who really uses Nair all that much anyways. I wish you could buffer Dair from Nair so like right as the sex kicks comes out hits them you stomp them. Same as falco's running attack to buffered U smash

 

[NO-IDea]

10lulz
Same as falco's running attack to buffered U smash

Is that buffering? I see that more as DACUS with the dash attack animation hitting you before he cancels it into u-smash. Snake can do that; rather than immediately cancel the animation, he hits you before using u-smash. Or maybe you're saying the dash attack animation ended and then Falco did u-smash. Then, yes, that would be buffering.

 

[Cherry64]

Oh, lol I honestly didn't know that, I thought it was buffering

good to know though

 

[IsmaR]

@N-air: It has more uses than it is being given credit for. I use it defensively, offensively, whatever the situation calls for. I personally like using it for edgeguarding. Samus(or mine/usually at least) makes it back to the stage 90%.

Now for my own question, wtf is OOS/OoS? Did I miss something?

 

[Crystanium]

@N-air: It has more uses than it is being given credit for. I use it defensively, offensively, whatever the situation calls for. I personally like using it for edgeguarding. Samus(or mine/usually at least) makes it back to the stage 90%.

Now for my own question, wtf is OOS/OoS? Did I miss something?

Out of Shield.

 

[pAce]

What determines how far someone is pushed back when you hit them whilst they're shielding?

 

[IsmaR]

Typing more than only 3 letters. It's like walking to places.

EDIT: I think it's called shield-stun.

 

[pAce]

I meant what is it about the move that causes the amount of push back (or shield-stun).

 

[NO-IDea]

Err... if it's really strong? This is of course assuming the opponent did not perfect shield it.

For example, d-smash will have more shield knockback than a jab. At the same time, stronger moves will also have a longer shield-stun as well (meaning the opponent can't react as fast after being hit. Think of when you hit someone with fully charged shot. It's not as if they can run at you immediately after they block the hit. This is called shield stun..)

Remember, there's knockback and there's hit stun.
Conversly, there's shield knockback (pushback, however you want to call it) and there's shield stun. Typically moves that cause high knockback also cause high shield knockback. Same applies to stun.

 

[pAce]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't assume it was down to the strength. It's just that some moves seem to have more shield knockback than others that are relatively close in power and knockback.

 

[Cherry64]

smash's GENERALLY have the most shield knockback, Don't know why, but they just do

 

[Popertop]

certian power specials also have large pushback (D3's down B)

 

[spudzalot]

@N-air: It has more uses than it is being given credit for. I use it defensively, offensively, whatever the situation calls for. I personally like using it for edgeguarding. Samus(or mine/usually at least) makes it back to the stage 90%.

Now for my own question, wtf is OOS/OoS? Did I miss something?

Can also be Out of State. Like,"I'm going to an OoS tourney."

But most of the time people mean Out of Shield.

 

[Cherry64]

Can also be Out of State. Like,"I'm going to an OoS tourney."

But most of the time people mean Out of Shield.

I lol'd hard. I dunno dude I've only ever heard people say that to make a funny.
And indeed it is funny the first few times but after a while it gets pretty sad that they are using smash terms in basic life.

PS Dryn, why are YOU allowed to one line it, and we are not??
Not attacking you here, just wonderin

 

[Crystanium]

I lol'd hard. I dunno dude I've only ever heard people say that to make a funny.
And indeed it is funny the first few times but after a while it gets pretty sad that they are using smash terms in basic life.

PS Dryn, why are YOU allowed to one line it, and we are not??
Not attacking you here, just wonderin

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[-Crews-]

The move I probably use the least is u-tilt. I truly think that move is useless. Only possible use is maybe to edge-guard, assuming your opponent is foolish enough to stay on edge that long or actually fall for it while recovering. Otherwise, there are better options to deal with an aerial approach.

For those who believe u-tilt can be utilized in combos, I'd much rather prefer a grounded up+b or sh-uair over u-tilt any day. Faster, less riskier and has solid knockback to reset spacing,

useless? are you kidding me? i mean come on, have you ever herd of a kill move? cause she only has a few and that's one of them. but thats not its only use. its great on stages like battlefeild and smashville where a plattform is right above you. not to mention for edgegaurding. and yes folks it is very possible to edge guard with utilt and here is how.

(edge guarding for dummies)
distance yourself away from the edge your opponents on by about a marth's fsmash away and start charging your charge shot. naturally, the opponent doesnt want you to fully charge the charge shot making them approach from the ledge most likely with an aerial. you should be far away enough so that they wont just use the ledge attack as an approach yet close enough for the utilt to hit. distance yourself so that they must forfeit their invincibility by jumping towards you to attack as opposed to ledge attack etc. now all you must do is read when they are about to aerial and quickly shield cancel the charge shot and do an utilt. its just that simple. and since the utilt kills easiest while your opponent is in the air, it results in an earlier kill. the more you know

@other samus mains, how come he wasnt corrected sooner? your all being negligent towards our visitor.

 

[Cherry64]

useless? are you kidding me? i mean come on, have you ever herd of a kill move? cause she only has a few and that's one of them. but thats not its only use. its great on stages like battlefeild and smashville where a plattform is right above you. not to mention for edgegaurding. and yes folks it is very possible to edge guard with utilt and here is how.

(edge guarding for dummies)
distance yourself away from the edge your opponents on by about a marth's fsmash away and start charging your charge shot. naturally, the opponent doesnt want you to fully charge the charge shot making them approach from the ledge most likely with an aerial. you should be far away enough so that they wont just use the ledge attack as an approach yet close enough for the utilt to hit. distance yourself so that they must forfeit their invincibility by jumping towards you to attack as opposed to ledge attack etc. now all you must do is read when they are about to aerial and quickly shield cancel the charge shot and do an utilt. its just that simple. and since the utilt kills easiest while your opponent is in the air, it results in an earlier kill. the more you know

@other samus mains, how come he wasnt corrected sooner? your all being negligent towards our visitor.

He's no visitor lol. I was going to type it out but I am Le tired
He has been around these boards for a while now CREWS. But I agree with you. I defs use Utilt in my game, not like tons I might add but for edge guarding and for platforms, and for a surprise attack, people always mis shield it for some weird reason :s

 

[NO-IDea]

useless? are you kidding me? i mean come on, have you ever herd of a kill move? cause she only has a few and that's one of them. but thats not its only use. its great on stages like battlefeild and smashville where a plattform is right above you. not to mention for edgegaurding. and yes folks it is very possible to edge guard with utilt and here is how.

(edge guarding for dummies)
distance yourself away from the edge your opponents on by about a marth's fsmash away and start charging your charge shot. naturally, the opponent doesnt want you to fully charge the charge shot making them approach from the ledge most likely with an aerial. you should be far away enough so that they wont just use the ledge attack as an approach yet close enough for the utilt to hit. distance yourself so that they must forfeit their invincibility by jumping towards you to attack as opposed to ledge attack etc. now all you must do is read when they are about to aerial and quickly shield cancel the charge shot and do an utilt. its just that simple. and since the utilt kills easiest while your opponent is in the air, it results in an earlier kill. the more you know.

Again... edge-guarding for dummies. The only people that will fall for it are dummies who have no experience in the game or have no experience against Samus. After the first use of it, however, then it becomes useless (unless you are up against a dummy. The adage "Fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.) It's not even a proper mind game because they will let you charge the charge shot rather than risk being mind gamed.

And, for the sake of the argument, let's say they don't let you charge, they're not going to approach with a sh-aerial because almost everyone knows by now Samus can cancel into shield. They will more than likely approach with a sh-air dodge. By the time u-tilt comes within distance, they'll either air dodge it or land and perfect shield. Punishable. I'm not saying it's not possible to land the kill with u-tilt... but at the same time, I'm not saying it's not possible to land f-smash with Snake on someone who spam spot dodges either. XD

As for using u-tilt below platforms such as BF, sh u-air is definitely more useful. A faster threat to the opponent and easier to follow-up on whether or not they shield. A blocked u-tilt is more punishable than a blocked u-air.

For the sake of u-tilt being one of Samus' kills moves, yes I agree. But, it has even less probability of landing the kill than b-air does. It doesn't kill (until fairly high percentages) when they're grounded and you're not going to hit an opponent in the air as often as they just **** you before it lands.

I'm sorry, but the uses for u-tilt are too limited. If there are two moves that are almost never used by Samus mains, it's between u-smash and u-tilt. Simply because u-smash can 1) be used to read air dodge-recoveries and thus punish, 2) used against big and tall characters (DDD/Snake/DK and even Marth) and more importantly, 3) it comes out several frames faster than u-tilt, u-smash is the more useful of the two.

This is just my opinion of course. Don't take it too seriously if you disagree with any of this.

 

[Cherry64]

As for using u-tilt below platforms such as BF, sh u-air is definitely more useful. A faster threat to the opponent and easier to follow-up on whether or not they shield. A blocked u-tilt is more punishable than a blocked u-air.

Yeah...right!? for starters dude the Utilt gives shield knock back so they can't immediately Smash you, they have to move forward a bit and smash, but you SHOULD in theory be able to shield the smash if they move forward. Even if that doesn't work, then a shielded U air can be shield grabbed, Try facing a DDD with your silly little U air

 

[NO-IDea]

Yeah...right!? for starters dude the Utilt gives shield knock back so they can't immediately Smash you, they have to move forward a bit and smash, but you SHOULD in theory be able to shield the smash if they move forward. Even if that doesn't work, then a shielded U air can be shield grabbed, Try facing a DDD with your silly little U air

Mm, technically, any aerial on someone on a platform can be shield grabbed if done wrong. Since Samus has no disjointed hit box, and plus you normally follow-up with b-air, you aim the u-air behind them (and u-air has shield knockback too and everyone loves pushing them off platforms into a b-air with Samus.) Not many can do reverse grab after shield well.

As for whether or not you can punish u-tilt, they shield and then fall through platform with an aerial. DDD uses n-air, auto-cancel to chain grab = ****.

Although DDD in general = **** XD. Camping anyone?

 

[Cherry64]

That's true. If you do wi-fi which you probably don't becasue samus on Wi-Fi sucks Harder than she normally does, then I'll show you how I utilize U tilt

But this is kind of getting off topic, turning itself into a discussion

 

[NO-IDea]

Fair enough XD. And I'd love to play Wi-Fi (although I normally don't because lag sucks) with another Samus main. After finals though...

Do you accept my challenge? XD
(It's a question, therefore relevant to this thread.)

 

[Cherry64]

Lmao. Yes. I accept your challenge.
When are Finals over?
Yeah lag is generally bad, but if you play online a bit you'll get accustomed to the Button lag .

 

[Zesty_Chicken]

How do I approach with Samus? Besides Z-air, I haven't found an effective way to approach.

 

[Werk!]

Try a missle-cancel into dash-grab/attack mindgame along with the usual SHZ-air, full-hop double-Z-air, etc.

Mix up the tempo, doublejump for flavor, it's really up to you.

In terms of close down and dirty, lots of people advocate FF U-air to D-smash/D-tilt/Up-B. Depends on the character and if they're prepared for it, it's still punishable. Also fun is D-air to Up-B.

 

[-Crews-]

i didn't post what this last said

 

[-Crews-]

i didn't post what this last said.

 

[Cherry64]

How do I approach with Samus? Besides Z-air, I haven't found an effective way to approach.

Err! generally buddy, don't try it, if you really want to yeah Missile cancel a homing missile and throw down the dashing, if they shield it, grab, if it looks like it'll hit them dash attack. another effective way is shield dashing. you'll pop up a shield and then get a free jab, unless you shield dash EVERYWHERE then you are predictable.

also forgot to bomb bait. run and bomb then back off, and see what they are doing, DO NOT USE THIS LOTS. There's the warning.

EDIT: Seems like CREWS got haxedd@

 

[-Crews-]

Again... edge-guarding for dummies. The only people that will fall for it are dummies who have no experience in the game or have no experience against Samus. After the first use of it, however, then it becomes useless (unless you are up against a dummy. The adage "Fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.) It's not even a proper mind game because they will let you charge the charge shot rather than risk being mind gamed.

And, for the sake of the argument, let's say they don't let you charge, they're not going to approach with a sh-aerial because almost everyone knows by now Samus can cancel into shield. They will more than likely approach with a sh-air dodge. By the time u-tilt comes within distance, they'll either air dodge it or land and perfect shield. Punishable. I'm not saying it's not possible to land the kill with u-tilt... but at the same time, I'm not saying it's not possible to land f-smash with Snake on someone who spam spot dodges either. XD

As for using u-tilt below platforms such as BF, sh u-air is definitely more useful. A faster threat to the opponent and easier to follow-up on whether or not they shield. A blocked u-tilt is more punishable than a blocked u-air.

For the sake of u-tilt being one of Samus' kills moves, yes I agree. But, it has even less probability of landing the kill than b-air does. It doesn't kill (until fairly high percentages) when they're grounded and you're not going to hit an opponent in the air as often as they just **** you before it lands.

I'm sorry, but the uses for u-tilt are too limited. If there are two moves that are almost never used by Samus mains, it's between u-smash and u-tilt. Simply because u-smash can 1) be used to read air dodge-recoveries and thus punish, 2) used against big and tall characters (DDD/Snake/DK and even Marth) and more importantly, 3) it comes out several frames faster than u-tilt, u-smash is the more useful of the two.

This is just my opinion of course. Don't take it too seriously if you disagree with any of this.

looks like someone needs to learn how to use utilt properly.

 

[Cherry64]

Hahaha I heart you CREWS.
all anyone needs to learn is it's hit box and timing, how long the move takes to come out, Then it is an Amazing move

 

[NO-IDea]

Even still, what does it have? The only real combo being FF u-air to u-tilt? Not only will that be hard to land on someone who knows the match-up or begins to learn the match-up while playing a Samus main, it has no practical uses of which there is a better move. Usually FF u-airs are landed from feints after purposefully falling off the stage. Otherwise... they're usually shielded. Usually... in the rare (but not really rare) cases it lands, usually u-tilt can't be true combo'd into it during that circumstance and up+b is the better option.

Mind games (which essentially equates to you NOT using the best possible move in a situation to fool an opponent) are the only thing this move can be used for. And Samus has enough mind games without risking punishment.

To support your argument CREWS, would you mind posting vids where u-tilt was used successfully... and there wasn't a better option at the time? Or when it was landed as a kill move... and the opponent was not dumb or unfamiliar with the match-up? 'Cause I can't find any XD.

And I can use u-tilt correctly. I just don't under normal circumstances.

 

[-Crews-]

Hahaha I heart you CREWS.
all anyone needs to learn is it's hit box and timing, how long the move takes to come out, Then it is an Amazing move

i completely agree.

Even still, what does it have? The only real combo being FF u-air to u-tilt? Not only will that be hard to land on someone who knows the match-up or begins to learn the match-up while playing a Samus main, it has no practical uses of which there is a better move. Usually FF u-airs are landed from feints after purposefully falling off the stage. Otherwise... they're usually shielded. Usually... in the rare (but not really rare) cases it lands, usually u-tilt can't be true combo'd into it during that circumstance and up+b is the better option.

Mind games (which essentially equates to you NOT using the best possible move in a situation to fool an opponent) are the only thing this move can be used for. And Samus has enough mind games without risking punishment.

To support your argument CREWS, would you mind posting vids where u-tilt was used successfully... and there wasn't a better option at the time? Or when it was landed as a kill move... and the opponent was not dumb or unfamiliar with the match-up? 'Cause I can't find any XD.

And I can use u-tilt correctly. I just don't under normal circumstances.

^if you truly used the move correctly, you would realize that you just made a contradictory statement. because you should really start using it more.

well, as much as i would love to go through dozens and dozens of samus vids in hope that i will find one that shows a an amazing samus combo with the utilt, im not going to waste my time doing so. if you waiting to see a vid where the samus does crazy s**t with utilt or continually spams the move, don't hold your breath. all i know is that im not going to argue with you anymore about the utilt. if you don't want to use it, then fine, don't, it doesn't phase me at all.

on an improvement note, if you truly want to see how good certain moves can be, try playing samus for with a week without projectiles including zair. it completely revolutionized my game by making me use certain moves in certain situations i would have normally spammed or zaired in. imo, all samus mains should go through this for at least a week. it made me realize just how good utilt can be with its knockback and priority....but to each his own i guess.

 

[NO-IDea]

Interesting training routine, but I normally use z-air close range anyway and auto-cancel into f-tilt/f-smash, grab and even u-smash depending on opponent (note: z-air cancel into hyphen smash can **** Fox/Marth approaches and **** Snake in general.)

Generally, I hate approaching with FF u-air simply because of its horrible horizontal range and would rather do z-air or f-air cancel into d-smash (preferred over d-tilt for shield knockback and simply saving d-tilt as a kill move,) f-tilt/smash or grab/pivot grab. And because I don't use FF u-air as an approach often, I simply find u-tilt to be only useful as a mind game (for when you can read their spot dodges.) In other words, maybe once or twice a set (not a match.)

In the aspect that certain moves shine when not using projectiles, I agree. Except this is Samus; she has projectiles and one of the best/annoying moves in the game: z-air. The possibilities of z-air for combos and spacing make u-tilt not so shiny. It would be akin to saying MK should start training without WHOR-nado. Of course his spacing skills will get better... but WHOR-nado as a ledge guard tactic when playing conservatively (not going off-ledge for the kill) still ***** compared to most of MK's other options.

To each his own on the u-tilt though XD. Let's move on!

 

[Cherry64]

Lmao guys, take this to PMs, and I'll chime in, but this isn't the place for it.
Also go watch some vids of me or CREWS in the vid thing because I guarantee I use it to kill my bud Kief a few times.
It is a great move, use it a lot on battle field, srsly it hits them above you on the platform and if they drop through it, it will KO them at like 140%.

But yes, please take it to PM's this is getting clustered lol.

 

[pAce]

There's something that's been bugging me. I played a few matches with a Snake main and I reckon I played fairly well. Although I only won one out of about six I still came within winning distance - which can't be that bad considering the match-up.

The problem is he criticised me for being repetitive (I think that's his way of saying predictable). Basically he said that everytime I made an approach, all he would have to do is shield it and f-tilt me away. I start by throwing out z-airs and homing missiles, then usually follow up with f-tilt/d-tilt/dash attack/grab/SH d-air.

I don't know whether it's because I could be doing more, that I'm simply limited by the match-up or it's just bad criticism. Is there anything else I could be doing?

 

[NO-IDea]

There's something that's been bugging me. I played a few matches with a Snake main and I reckon I played fairly well. Although I only won one out of about six I still came within winning distance - which can't be that bad considering the match-up.

The problem is he criticised me for being repetitive (I think that's his way of saying predictable). Basically he said that everytime I made an approach, all he would have to do is shield it and f-tilt me away. I start by throwing out z-airs and homing missiles, then usually follow up with f-tilt/d-tilt/dash attack/grab/SH d-air.

I don't know whether it's because I could be doing more, that I'm simply limited by the match-up or it's just bad criticism. Is there anything else I could be doing?

It should be close. Although... based on what you've said... I think the problem is you're approaching him. Snake should be the one approaching you; Samus can outcamp Snake easily with homing/super missles (sh homings interfere with his grenades) and z-air at mid range. Once Snake gets shield-happy, that's your cue to start pre-emptively throwing him into the air (Snake sucks in the air) or off the ledge and going for the gimp.

If he gets within range of f-tilts (his f-tilt has more range than his jab,) shield and punish with your own f-tilt. Also remember that if he starts a jab combo, you can shield after the first two jabs. Overall, you should be playing the punishing game, not him.

 

[pAce]

It should be close. Although... based on what you've said... I think the problem is you're approaching him. Snake should be the one approaching you; Samus can outcamp Snake easily with homing/super missles (sh homings interfere with his grenades) and z-air at mid range. Once Snake gets shield-happy, that's your cue to start pre-emptively throwing him into the air (Snake sucks in the air) or off the ledge and going for the gimp.

If he gets within range of f-tilts (his f-tilt has more range than his jab,) shield and punish with your own f-tilt. Also remember that if he starts a jab combo, you can shield after the first two jabs. Overall, you should be playing the punishing game, not him.

Snake's camping tends to draw me to him, especially the grenades. I could have probably done a better job of out-camping, though.

Gimping him was difficult too; whenever I got him off the edge he would jump then up-B to get the maximum vertical speed very quickly. Spiking him seemed almost out of the question.