Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[Throwback]

laser, fsmash, downB, bair, jab and probably ftilt as well

 

[KillerJawz]

Falcon doesn't have a lazer...

If it's poorly spaced, Grab OoS will punish her nicely. If it's nicely spaced there is very little you can do, I imagine that a well spaced dair will knock her out of it, but it's very unlikely.

 

[ZeroL]

Run into it with shield and wait for what Samus is going to do. She can't do much tbh, her grab is so slow you can see it coming so you have time to spotdodge/roll behind her etc.

 

[Laem]

any chance falcon can fsmash, dsmash, utilt, or heck, Punch through it? Is samus still (ledge-)invincible when she lands with the fair?

 

[Zatchiel]

any chance falcon can fsmash

Not recommended, but it's possible on prediction and proper spacing.

dsmash

This is generally better than Fsmash, imo, mainly because if it's better knockback, less punishable frames *for Falcon*, and it covers both sides in case Samus attempts to roll from the ledge, which is a safe option, for Samus. Don't get too confused, as Fsmash has it's benefits, such as Falcon leaning back a small distance before smashing, making it safe in punishing Samus's ledge-getup attack. I believe it might also have more forward range than Dsmash.

utilt

Utilt on edgeguarding is a fantastic option for Falcon. It outspaces Samus's ledgehopped Fair, punish ledge jumping, it's quick enough for you to turn around and grab Samus afterwards if she rolls onstage, and if space appropriately, it can outspace her ledge getup attack.

Punch through it?

If they're predictable on their method of ledge getup and you notice a pattern, if you've got understanding of Falcon Punch's frames ( Its duration was in the mid 50s), then by all means, use it to take a free stock off Samus at around 40%. 30% If the Samus has horrid DI.

Is samus still (ledge-)invincible when she lands with the fair?

She'd have to quick tether > Ledgehop Fair for her to attack while keeping a small remainder of ledge frames she started with. Other than that, she can be knocked out of it with a quick option, which i believe Falcon lacks. You could use Falcon Dive OoS to snag her out of it by surprise, but it's not too effective at low %s, and it's highly punishable if it misses.

 

[Judo777]

Hey xyro i know how much you love playing low tiers. Why haven't you ever challenged boss' mario?

 

[NO-IDea]

Because they've never met each other (as far as I know.)

 

[Xyro77]

Hey xyro i know how much you love playing low tiers. Why haven't you ever challenged boss' mario?

I did play boss way back in 09. I got ***** so bad i had to change my panties. At that point i had only fought decent marios and not HOLY **** WTF MARIOs. But now, i hear that kirin is better than boss so i wanna fight him.

 

[Zatchiel]

Whenever i Zair with someone, they go into the helpless animation for a very brief amount of frames, then everything is normal. Is this in correlation with the animation they go through to finish (retract) the Zair, or are they really put into a helpless state for that period of frames? I originally noticed this while playing Toon Link.

 

[LanceStern]

Well you can frame trap the zair into a handful of moves. They are helpless in a sense

 

[Zatchiel]

What i mean is that my character goes into the helpless/freefall animation briefly after the Zair, and before retraction of the Zair occurs. The same thing occurred with Gliding, after the attack and glide canceling itself.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I am kind of transitioning from 64 (Because I now get real bad lag on my computer) to Brawl and after testing out the characters I have taken a linking to samus, but I am real curious as to why samus is slower that ZSS after all should Samus be faster with the Speed boaster in her own games, and on top of that in her own games the power suit "Fits like a second skin" so the reduction in speed should be minimal (Presuming no speed boaster). Why is that the way it is?

 

[Xyro77]

I am kind of transitioning from 64 (Because I now get real bad lag on my computer) to Brawl and after testing out the characters I have taken a linking to samus, but I am real curious as to why samus is slower that ZSS after all should Samus be faster with the Speed boaster in her own games, and on top of that in her own games the power suit "Fits like a second skin" so the reduction in speed should be minimal (Presuming no speed boaster). Why is that the way it is?

Samus in her games has no relation to samus in brawl.....sadly. Its always been like that.

 

[IsmaR]

Samus actually ran kinda fast in 64. Mega slow in Melee, slightly less in Brawl. I'm guessing the creators wanted to make Samus unique from everyone else, to the point that it really screwed her over in unexpected ways(to them at least). IIRC, Samus doesn't fall very fast in the 2D games, isn't as powerful in her base 'form' that she's known for(without the Speed Booster/Screw Attack/higher damage resistance of later suits(palette swaps don't count), etc. The only thing she excelled at naturally was maneuvering as far as the games were concerned). She basically fought from a distance with projectiles, which would work fine and dandy in Brawl if a thing called shielding didn't exist. And in the end, they really just designed her to be fun to play as and different from others. Yeah it might be better if she fell faster, hit harder, lived longer, etc., but that's what Snake is for.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

How do you pull out that zss taunt change? I thought it was hit up taunt and down taunt really fast but I can not seem to do it.

Also how much better is balanced brawl samus vs non-balanced brawl samus?

 

[IsmaR]

Really fast is actually insanely fast. Takes a while to get used to doing for any taunt inputs, truthfully. Balanced who to the what now?

 

[IYM!]

Samus in her games has no relation to samus in brawl.....sadly. Its always been like that.

Also Link, Fire/ice/light arrows didnt apear in smash

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Really fast is actually insanely fast. Takes a while to get used to doing for any taunt inputs, truthfully. Balanced who to the what now?

The Brawl Modification. I can post a link if you would like.

 

[DtJ Composer]

From what I understood about bBrawl samus was pretty damn good.
I guess they made her usmash link, and buffed her projectiles/zair.

I'm not sure because that hack wasn't balanced so I never played it

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Where is the social thread?

 

[Zatchiel]

What i mean is that my character goes into the helpless/freefall animation briefly after the Zair, and before retraction of the Zair occurs. The same thing occurred with Gliding, after the attack and glide canceling itself.

I never got an answer to this.

 

[Xyro77]

I never got an answer to this.

Its called hit-stun. you can do nothing about it.

 

[IsmaR]

Where is the social thread?

Google Shelbrunkand.

 

[Darkmetroidomega]

From what I understood about bBrawl samus was pretty damn good.
I guess they made her usmash link, and buffed her projectiles/zair.

I'm not sure because that hack wasn't balanced so I never played it

She was S-tier according to their "BBrawl Tier List" iirc. I believe her fsmash was also buffed.

 

[Zatchiel]

Its called hit-stun. you can do nothing about it.

I'm not hitting anyone, and i'm not being hit. I'm talking about using my Zair, and even if it doesn't hit, my character seems to go into the helpless animation slightly after the Zair retraction is complete.

 

[Xyro77]

I'm not hitting anyone, and i'm not being hit. I'm talking about using my Zair, and even if it doesn't hit, my character seems to go into the helpless animation slightly after the Zair retraction is complete.

Then its 1 of 2 things.

1. You are playing melee. When you zair in melee u free fall untill you hit the ground.

2. When you zair in brawl the "helpless animation" you see is just samus pulling her arm back after the zair.

 

[DelxDoom]

give us a video...

 

[Zatchiel]

2. When you zair in brawl the "helpless animation" you see is just samus pulling her arm back after the zair.

The thing is, it's not just with Samus. I've done it with just about every Zair. I'm certain there's some form of helpless frames immediately after she retracts it, then she goes into her normal aerial animation (each varying on whether or not you've expelled or retained your second jump).

 

[Sago]

The thing is, it's not just with Samus. I've done it with just about every Zair. I'm certain there's some form of helpless frames immediately after she retracts it, then she goes into her normal aerial animation (each varying on whether or not you've expelled or retained your second jump).

lol what are you talking about. Zair has almost no lag and certainly no helpless animation.

 

[Throwback]

ok so this got moved here & then I deleted it...sigh @ my own fail forum skills.

Let's see...

HMC is godlike because it buys samus time, puts her in a good position, and basically makes your opponent play defense instead of destroying you. It sets you up for kills, it frametraps, and it cooks you bacon & eggs the morning after.

1. If people decide to start running in while you set it up - they eat a zair and you start again.

2. Nair is the best shield-poke I've seen in the game and uair/zair will out-prioritise the vast majority of aerial moves in the game. This makes shielding the approach bad, and jumping the approach just as bad.

3. Samus' stop out of dash is incredibly quick. You can dtilt an opponent's spot-dodge response if you time & space it correctly.

4. Samus' defence isn't enough to win games against good players, imo. She can't grab, she doesn't nair oos well, upB gets DI'd constantly and can miss even if you think it won't (and it doesn't have invincibility), her SH is bloody slow and extremely vulnerable, her roll is the worst in the game, and last but not least - air-dodge & rolls mean reliable keep-away isn't achievable for samus.

So, approach with HMC every single time you can, and use something other than grabs and dash attack. Mix it up with nairs for shield-pokes, fake aerial approaches into zair, falling uair, stop into ftilt/dtilt, RAR to SH bair, SHFF charge shot - the list goes on. HMC lets us control the spacing AND puts us in an advantageous position.

It is good, it is amazing, and we all should stop playing quite so much keep-away to abuse this gem of an apporach.

 

[HotWings]

Hey, im trying to figure out the counterpick for all characters so im going to all the Q&A threads of all the characters and posting this. I would like for you to give me your characters worst MU and worst stage so it saves me a lot of time researching it myself and testing stuff.

I would really appreciate it if you all helped me out.

Hope to get some answers pretty soon.

 

[Xyro77]

Hey, im trying to figure out the counterpick for all characters so im going to all the Q&A threads of all the characters and posting this. I would like for you to give me your characters worst MU and worst stage so it saves me a lot of time researching it myself and testing stuff.

I would really appreciate it if you all helped me out.

Hope to get some answers pretty soon.

olimar/ddd/falco/mk

hardest MUs for sure.

 

[DtJ Composer]

Pretty much what Xyro said.

Do you want Samus' worst stages or the worst stages in those MUs?
I'm not sure what to say for Samus' worse stage. It seems like each samus player has their own worst stage.
Maybe Yoshi's Island or Frigate Orpheon though?
Would like to hear what Xyro or NoID have to say about it.

 

[Throwback]

briiiiiinstar for sure. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

 

[NO-IDea]

Falco is my hardest MU.

I'm impartial to stages. I can't help you there.

 

[IsmaR]

briiiiiinstar for sure. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Cool...opinion...bro. Really.
[collapse="My opinion doesn't count since I'm bad/don't have this game"]I have issues with Falco as well. W/Spacies in general, though I'm not so bad against Fox. Either of those aren't as bad as MK and sometimes D3, IMO. Stagewise, I think my worst is probably Yoshi's(except against Sonic), and even then it's not that terribad. I think specific MU's play more into it than any universally bad stage for us. Samus has an abundance of tricks and maneuverability, just not that combat prowess to back it up all too well.[/collapse]

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

@Zatch: At least for Samus, are you referring to the little "flip" animation that she does after zair is fully retracted? But i don't think that one has any vulnerable frames. But i could be wrong of course.

Out of what Xyro said, i can't STAND fighting Falco. I don't find D3 (though annoying) or MK (very annoying, but at least i can kill him below 200%) as bad, but Olimar and Falco especially, i really hate fighting as Samus.
My personal worst stage is Yoshi's, hands down. But i find Orpheon and Brinstar incredibly fun, mostly Orpheon.

 

[MARLX]

What is the match up between samus and falco?

 

[Serris]

If I remember correctly, 70:30 or 65:35 in favor of Falco.

 

[DtJ Composer]

I'd venture to say 70:30.
If we're getting lasered we're getting shut down.
And Samus is a mighty tall woman.



I 100x prefer the falco matchup to the Olimar matchup though.