Meta Shields in Smash4 / 1.1.1>

[Nobie]

This is true, but testing seems to suggest that you stop taking the shield damage over time during both hitlag freeze and shieldstun. I could not create a situation where a victim's shield broke during shieldstun or hitlag freeze; it was always beforehand.

I tested out Ganondorf's Warlock Blade, which has higher shield damage than Warlock Punch, and a non-reversed Blade almost breaks Shields, just like how it always was. If there's a difference in shield damage it's quite small.

Also, as a non-competitive side note, since the time since I last checked Warlock Blade it now makes a fancy new sound effect! *SHIIING*

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just had two Donkey Kongs hit a shield with F-Smash at the same time (20% each) and it broke in the same manner. Doing the same with two Captain Falcons (two 19% F-Smashes at once) left it with a bit of shield.

If you don't hit with the tip of non-reversed grounded Warlock Blade, it deals 18% damage and 20 shield damage. That is consistent with this testing.

Either way, looks like shields effectively have 40 HP. Full shields break in approximately 6.5 seconds from natural deterioration over time, so that means shields take a little more than 6 damage every 60 frames (6.154 damage per second if I'm doing this right).

 

[Vipermoon]

Are we sure shield HP didn't get a global nerf this patch, or has it just not really been looked into?
Because there are a lot of new shield breaking strings that don't do anywhere near 50% (more like 40%), and your shield doesn't actually decay while in shieldstun/lag.

Shulk bair > buster f-smash it the main thing I'm looking at here, only does 38% yet pretty much breaks a full shield now. There's not enough time of the other person holding shield before/after to account for a 12% buffer.

I don't see anything wrong here. There is time between Bair and Buster Fsmash. Marth's Shield Breaker used to do 38% to shields uncharged (39% tipper) and it would still one-shot fairly healthy shields. But that is with 1 hit. For Shulk, a frame perfect landing Bair to Fsmash has 35 frames between them. Combine that with possible lower shield health before the Bair. What if they held shield for half a second before the Bair? What if their shield wasn't completely at full health in the first place? What if both?

We actually do not know for sure if shields don't lose HP in shield stun, but we do know that it wouldn't be a big deal to shield HP if it did.

I'd be really surprised if shield HP was decreased because it feels like 5 HP less anytime I hit a shield with partially-charged SB only to find it damaging shields only as much as uncharged used to. But we have to know for sure by testing (or can we find it in game files?). Who can find various attacks that do between 45% to 50% damage? It's a lot harder than it sounds.

 

[Doval]

Are we sure shield HP didn't get a global nerf this patch, or has it just not really been looked into?
Because there are a lot of new shield breaking strings that don't do anywhere near 50% (more like 40%), and your shield doesn't actually decay while in shieldstun/lag.

Shulk bair > buster f-smash it the main thing I'm looking at here, only does 38% yet pretty much breaks a full shield now. There's not enough time of the other person holding shield before/after to account for a 12% buffer.

I had my shield break once during shield stun. My finger was off the shield button and my character was still sliding from blocking the hit when it popped. This was on 1.1.0.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bair has 0 frames of landing lag if you cancel it with buster monado, and it does 8 or 9 frames of shieldstun (not sure of the rounding)
Which leaves only 4-5 frames of holding shield between bair and f-smash, and 4 frames of holding shield before bair so that it doesn't perfect shield.

Not saying I'm frame perfect, that's why it actually breaks shields when I test rather than barely not. But there's nowhere near enough time for over 1/5th of your shield to decay. (if shields were still 50 hp, you'd have to lose 12 hp just from holding shield for this to break, that would take like 1 1/2 seconds)

Over in the viability thread, Reflex tested with two DK f-smashes at the same time, and reverse warlock punch (and I've verified that one), both do exactly 40% and break full shields now.

I had my shield break once during shield stun. My finger was off the shield button and my character was still sliding from blocking the hit when it popped. This was on 1.1.0.

This is conflicting with other sources I've heard so idk

Edit: Actually what would have happened is you were still in shield lock frames, shieldstun didn't overlap with shieldlock in 1.1.0, so your shield decayed while you were still forced into the minimum time of holding it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Are we sure shield HP didn't get a global nerf this patch, or has it just not really been looked into?
Because there are a lot of new shield breaking strings that don't do anywhere near 50% (more like 40%), and your shield doesn't actually decay while in shieldstun/lag.

Shulk bair > buster f-smash it the main thing I'm looking at here, only does 38% yet pretty much breaks a full shield now. There's not enough time of the other person holding shield before/after to account for a 12% buffer.

Pit's Fspecial does 11% and yet two leaves you with nearly nothing. Pre and post patch.

...Well okay, I don't remember what the shielder did between right now. Need to dig out those notes sometime.

Random thought. Isn't there supposed to be a penalty to your shield's HP for just putting it up?

 

[Locke 06]

I had my shield break once during shield stun. My finger was off the shield button and my character was still sliding from blocking the hit when it popped. This was on 1.1.0.

Can be explained with the conservation of shield lock frames after hit. Something that no longer exists.

Who can find various attacks that do between 45% to 50% damage? It's a lot harder than it sounds.

Equipment is your friend.

 

[Vipermoon]

TheReflexWonder

Well they definitely have more than 40 because Giga Mac's Usmash does 40% and it won't break a shield. I have an idea though. Using equipment, we can make our own damage outputs and see what can break shields. But keep in mind that as soon as you shield it could have always been that you lose HP in an accelerated manner in the beginning. We don't know honestly.

 

[Ghostbone]

TheReflexWonder

Well they definitely have more than 40 because Giga Mac's Usmash does 40% and it won't break a shield. .

...Yes it does

 

[Vipermoon]

Ghostbone

Well it is 2 frames ;P But yeah forgot about the AT.

LancerStaff

Pit's side B has a +10 in extra shield damage.

Locke 06

Yup, thought about that as I was typing in the Viability thread.

...Yes it does

Lol. Unless my Smash Bros is different than yours (or Marth has more shield HP than other chars) no it's not. Try inputting shield and Mac's Usmash at the same exact time.

 

[Ghostbone]

Lol. Unless my Smash Bros is different than yours (or Marth has more shield HP than other chars) no it's not. Try inputting shield and Mac's Usmash at the same exact time.

Yea you're right, if I input it a tiny amount before up-smash it breaks, otherwise it doesn't.

Maybe shield HP is like 41% lmao.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I addressed this earlier:

Reverse Aerial Warlock punch deals 40 damage with no extra shield damage, and it appears that this breaks shields in Training Mode if the victim holds Shield for more than a few frames beyond the powershield window beforehand (as in, this move deals about 99% of a shield's full health).

Unless this move gained shield damage since 1.0.4 or the Darkness element deals extra shield damage (both seem very unlikely), full shield health is either around 41 "HP" or shield damage formula is different.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

41 HP seems oddly specific for such a universal feature as shields, so I'd be more inclined to suspect a new shield damage formula.

Then again Luma had 52 and then 47 HP for a while so what do I know.

 

[Vipermoon]

Alright well I'm going to play with equipment. If you guys do too, remember that equipment damage levels will have decimals.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff

Pit's side B has a +10 in extra shield damage.

Forgot to mention that. What I ment was that shield HP doesn't look like it's been touched and that's still only 42 damage.

 

[Firefoxx]

41 HP seems oddly specific for such a universal feature as shields, so I'd be more inclined to suspect a new shield damage formula.

Then again Luma had 52 and then 47 HP for a while so what do I know.

Maybe its 41 because then only charged shieldbreaker could break shields without any previous damage?

 

[Ghostbone]

41 HP seems oddly specific for such a universal feature as shields, so I'd be more inclined to suspect a new shield damage formula.

Then again Luma had 52 and then 47 HP for a while so what do I know.

How would a new damage formula be different from different health?
If every move just does 20% more shield damage (exact number would be different), isn't that the same as shields just having effectively 40hp?

 

[Ghostbone]

Forgot to mention that. What I ment was that shield HP doesn't look like it's been touched and that's still only 42 damage.

Set up two Pits and use side-b at the same time on a shielding opponent?
That would be the best way to figure this out. (I only have two controllers, need 3 >.>)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How would a new damage formula be different from different health?
If every move just does 20% more shield damage (exact number would be different), isn't that the same as shields just having effectively 40hp?

It's because from what I can tell by reading the thread, the closest approximation is 41 HP. Like I said, oddly specific.

To be clear, I have no alternative hypothesis to offer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Freshness bonus is 1.05x, for all it's worth, and that does affect shield damage. All my testing was in Training Mode, where that doesn't apply. Maybe it's trying to account for that in some manner.

 

[Vipermoon]

The what breaks shields post:

I have a +195 Attack Marth here in training mode.

Fully charged back hit tipper Dsmash (Dsmash2 gives me lots of time to shield) does break the shield in one hit. It does 47.xx%. Two of them do 94 so the xx is less than .5. I shielded nearly perfectly. Just barely out of perfect shield range. So much that I didn't even see the shield itself.

Fully charged Usmash (dust cloud + sour hit) does 44.xx% where the xx is between .33 and .5. Broke a shield. Barely saw the shield before it broke.

Tipper Shield Breaker does NOT break a shield no charge. It says 17% but it's very close to 18. Nearly 18 + 25 extra shield damage = nearly 43 HP and it did not break.

 

[Doval]

Can be explained with the conservation of shield lock frames after hit. Something that no longer exists.

Sorry, you're right. Tried to reproduce it in training and I couldn't. I thought my shield had been up past the shield lock window but I guess I misremembered.

The thing that fooled me is that your character can still be sliding at the time the stun wears off and you keep the momentum during the shield break.

 

[LancerStaff]

Set up two Pits and use side-b at the same time on a shielding opponent?
That would be the best way to figure this out. (I only have two controllers, need 3 >.>)

Wish I would've done that pre-patch too...

Alright, I remember now. Two air hits from Pit wouldn't kill it, but grounded ones would. From a quick test, two aerial Dark Pit Fspecials in training (9.5% + 10 shield damage twice) leave Mario at a sliver of shield. Yep, looks like it's been at 40.1 HP or whatever for awhile now.

As silly as it sounds, fighters in Kid Icarus Uprising had like 259.6 HP, (I'm fudging it but you know what I mean) so shields being at a weird number isn't exactly unusual.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wish I would've done that pre-patch too...

Alright, I remember now. Two air hits from Pit wouldn't kill it, but grounded ones would. From a quick test, two aerial Dark Pit Fspecials in training (9.5% + 10 shield damage twice) leave Mario at a sliver of shield. Yep, looks like it's been at 40.1 HP or whatever for awhile now.

As silly as it sounds, fighters in Kid Icarus Uprising had like 259.6 HP, (I'm fudging it but you know what I mean) so shields being at a weird number isn't exactly unusual.

Check out my post in the Viability thread. It's at least 44 HP.

 

[Yikarur]

I had Yoshis downB grounded + star breaking full shields. This was very confusing for me. Shield HP nerf would explain it.
Yoshis grounded downB + star does (4% + 15%(+10)) + star (4% (+6%) = 39 Shield Damage.
40-45 HP seems likely.

 

[Ghostbone]

I have a theory that shields still have the same HP and the regular damage portion of attacks just do 19-20% extra shield damage. (so the extra shield damage on moves like shield breaker is comparatively less)

Since regular moves doing 40% seems to break shields (well do like 99% damage), yet moves with extra shield damage adding up to around 40% damage don't seem to break shields.

In this case, an uncharged shield breaker that does 21% should break shields this patch, can you buff up marth enough to test that?

 

[LancerStaff]

Check out my post in the Viability thread. It's at least 44 HP.

That's not right... I just broke a shield with two grounded Upperdashes. That's 42 damage.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's not right... I just broke a shield with two grounded Upperdashes. That's 42 damage.

Then you, sir, need to be more frame perfect.

 

[DanGR]

Anyone know what to make of this?:
https://i.gyazo.com/7967250c230858628e0ee658df48ef5c.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOjQTba32NE&feature=youtu.be

-I recorded this at 30fps. (So double these frames when counting)
-I made sure it's 1.1.1.
-the JPEG in question is the first instance of uptilt in the video.
-I held shield with sheik for a couple seconds before hit with the Luma uptilt, then I dropped shield as quickly as possible.
-There should be 12 frames of hitlag on Luma up tilt.
-There should be 4 or 6 frames of shieldstun depending on if Luma is counted as a projectile. This is what I set out to test.
-There's only ~12-13 (as best I can tell) frames of shielding altogether. What gives?

 

[LancerStaff]

Then you, sir, need to be more frame perfect.

Just ran the test again with fewer variables. Still broke the shield.

First I made a custom stage with a hole one block wide. One wall is skinny (the tip of a tall triangle, slant facing away) so I can force two Pits into the same spot but still hit a target. I'm already using wavebirds but just in case I turned on frame advance and started the move that way. I let them reel back until the Upperdash Arm stopped glowing and then shielded as Mario (Something I discovered previously, it's an easy way to time it against a shield without perfect shielding. Not entirely how close to PSing it is, but it's like a few frames max.) and it broke.

Edit: Food for thought... It may be that shield damage and normal damage aren't 1:1. In the mechanics and techniques discussion they're bringing up the possibility.

 

[Vipermoon]

I have a theory that shields still have the same HP and the regular damage portion of attacks just do 19-20% extra shield damage. (so the extra shield damage on moves like shield breaker is comparatively less)

Since regular moves doing 40% seems to break shields (well do like 99% damage), yet moves with extra shield damage adding up to around 40% damage don't seem to break shields.

In this case, an uncharged shield breaker that does 21% should break shields this patch, can you buff up marth enough to test that?

I cannot do that much damage with a Shield Breaker. Maybe someone else can. I probably don't have the best equipment.

But anyway, if that were true then maybe whoever decided to nerf Headbutt and Shield Breaker with this change did not know that extra shield damage wasn't account for. It seems like a really dumb theory but it could be miscommunication between some people.

Edit: Okay from now on this discussion will be in the 1.1.1 Shield thread

 

[kj22]

This is fun seeing people "co"-"lab" Smash 4 mechanics

 

[Vipermoon]

The what breaks shields post:

I have a +195 Attack Marth here in training mode.

Fully charged back hit tipper Dsmash (Dsmash2 gives me lots of time to shield) does break the shield in one hit. It does 47.xx%. Two of them do 94 so the xx is less than .5. I shielded nearly perfectly. Just barely out of perfect shield range. So much that I didn't even see the shield itself.

Fully charged Usmash (dust cloud + sour hit) does 44.xx% where the xx is between .33 and .5. Broke a shield. Barely saw the shield before it broke.

Tipper Shield Breaker does NOT break a shield no charge. It says 17% but it's very close to 18. Nearly 18 + 25 extra shield damage = nearly 43 HP and it did not break.

Anyway. I brought Marth down to +165. Fully charged Dsmash does 45.xx% but the xx is less than .2. It broke the shield.

 

[Ghostbone]

Anyway. I brought Marth down to +165. Fully charged Dsmash does 45.xx% but the xx is less than .2. It broke the shield.

Tested a Marth with 42.xx d-smash, broke the shield.

 

[Vipermoon]

Tested a Marth with 42.xx d-smash, broke the shield.

Hmm. And Shield Breaker didn't at nearly 43. So far the regular damage theory has not been debunked. What's the highest +Attack you can get Marth to? Maybe you or someone else can see how far you can take the move.

Okay just tried fully charged dust cloud + sour Usmash doing 42.xx% where xx is between .33 and .5. It broke the shield.

 

[Ghostbone]

I can get Marth to 200 attack, shield breaker only does 18.xx (less than 18.33)

 

[Blobface]

I have noticed that Ganon's U-smash and F-smash seem to do more shield damage visually, but I figured it was just placebo.

But if shield hp was changed as well, we should really check regen/degen rates too.

 

[Shaya]

Inherent shield damage in Brawl used to scale .8% of the total damage right?
We knew it was 1.0 at the start of the game.

Could be now 1.15 ±0.75 ish now?

 

[Ghostbone]

Marth's back tipper down smash doing at least 41.66% (cos equipment, likely extremely close to 42 since it was only a few attack from a 42.xx% d-smash) breaks a full shield (was only held for at most 6 frames before being hit)

 

[Blobface]

In addition, shield health after recovering from a shieldbreak was changed as well. Just broke a shield in training then hit it with Ganon's F-smash, which instantly broke it (I don't have precise recording equipment but it was almost immediately after the shield sound effect). Previously shields started with 30 hp after recovering from a break, now they have less than 25.

Edit: Wait nevermind. The 1.15 to 1.2 multiplier makes the most sense. That would still instabreak a freshly regen'd shield.