Meta Shields in Smash4 / 1.1.1>

[Yikarur]

So projectiles and normal moves have a different shield stun formula?

 

[Locke 06]

Formula of shieldstun of projectiles seems to be damage / 3.5 + 2. Source:

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649878327105208320/photo/1

Apparently this guy is like the Japanese Smash scientist so he is a credible source. His other table on normal shieldstun was also correct.

Coincidentally, 3.5 = 1.75 x 2

If we think of the +2 as a base, projectiles have half as much added shieldstun than non-projectiles. Nice find.

 

[Lavani]

Formula of shieldstun of projectiles seems to be damage / 3.5 + 2. Source:

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649878327105208320/photo/1

Apparently this guy is like the Japanese Smash scientist so he is a credible source. His other table on normal shieldstun was also correct.

I knew full charge Shadow Ball being minimum +5 on block was too good to be true. Incidentally, its shield stun is actually unchanged compared to prepatch, though shield lock playing out during shieldstun is obviously detrimental to its frame advantage regardless.

I assume the game considers "projectiles" to be "anything that can be reflected".

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's really strange but I'm glad they don't have normal shieldstun.

 

[Shaya]

I'm trying to get some clarity on mixed reports about ZSS paralyzer (neutral b).
Alternative shield stun for projectiles: "FINALLY"/interesting/cool.

But I'm hearing reports paralyzer has 0 hit lag despite http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/szerosuit_paralyzer_bullet
showing it has a 2.0 hit lag modifier.
It could be 0x14 attribute but I would be guessing that's new to this patch.

This would mean that Olimar's smash attacks got nerfed this patch I'm guessing.
Could this explain why people are talking as if Rosalina/Luma are worse this patch? (not sure how/why luma would be considered a projectile though?)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've said this numerous times that there is a flag that indicates if a move has hitlag or not. It's present on moves like Nayru's Love and ZSS Down Smash. I don't know if it's on Paralyzer, but it may be on other things like the connecting hitbox of Crash Bomb or Fox's Lasers.

 

[Locke 06]

That's really strange but I'm glad they don't have normal shieldstun.

I'm not. Q_Q

Edit: contact part of crash bomb's hitbox has a hitlag modifier of 0.3x while doing 0% damage. According to the hitlag formula I have ((d/2.6+5)*h*1.5e) it should have always done 1(.5) frame of hitlag, but I think Aero's right in that it might have a separate 0-hitlag modifier.

 

[Stromp]

So from what I can tell, shields are no longer as viable as they were in 1.1.0, and, due to this, grabs have become less important. Am I correct in this assumption?

This is what I'm lead to believe. All though grabs are still pretty nice for setting up combos

 

[McBehrer]

Could someone please explain this to someone who doesn't really know what all this technical talk means? What are multipliers? What, exactly, does this change in mechanics MEAN for gameplay?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Could someone please explain this to someone who doesn't really know what all this technical talk means? What are multipliers? What, exactly, does this change in mechanics MEAN for gameplay?

I am pretty sure there is an explanation somewhere... But it is most likely buried beneath a hundred threads and a thousand posts...

 

[Vipermoon]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shieldstun

Why does this say Brawl's formula is X/3? Also Melee's is wrong due to order of operations.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shieldstun

Why does this say Brawl's formula is X/3? Also Melee's is wrong due to order of operations.

The Smash Lab was bad at their job.

 

[Shaya]

I remember seeing the coveted formula, and I do recall it being around 2.5; but yeah for some reason it got lost in time and space.
I think the PM devs would still know/should know, but they don't like talking to us I'm lazy

 

[ぱみゅ]

Y'know, you might also try asking Amazing Ampharos and/or Thinkaman.

 

[Vipermoon]

@Thinkaman @Amazing Ampharos

Because no one else is doing it

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Spinosaurus
TheReflexWonder

Has Warios fart always been able to break nearly full shields? Because I just did that **** against a Ryu on FG. Don't think it was fully charged. Is that new or have you guys seen it before?

 

[Zeiah92]

Could someone please explain this to someone who doesn't really know what all this technical talk means? What are multipliers? What, exactly, does this change in mechanics MEAN for gameplay?

I don't know all the technical talk either but from what I understand (I could be wrong) is now when an attack lands on a shield, the person who shielded the attack has to wait a bit in his shield before he gets to do anything. I think before you could shield and immediately retaliate but now I guess it depends on the attack on how long the opponent will stay shielding.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@Spinosaurus
TheReflexWonder

Has Warios fart always been able to break nearly full shields? Because I just did that **** against a Ryu on FG. Don't think it was fully charged. Is that new or have you guys seen it before?

No, I've never seen it, but I generally try not to hit people's shields with it.

Full Waft deals 27% (almost 60% of a full shield by itself) and has a 2.0 hitlag multiplier. I don't know much about shields in the new patch, but wouldn't the extra shieldstun cause opponents to be stuck holding their shield fo longer, making it continue to shrink in that time?

EDIT: Just checked; yeah, that helps. I've heard that shields don't diminish over the time they're in hitlag, so that should just be an extra seven frames of shieldstun, if that's right. An extra fifteen hitlag frames, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Full Waft deals 27% (almost 60% of a full shield by itself) and has a 2.0 hitlag multiplier. I don't know much about shields in the new patch, but wouldn't the extra shieldstun cause opponents to be stuck holding their shield for much longer, making it continue to shrink in that time?

That's probably what happened. Shield breaker had the amount of shield damage done lowered to make sure it doesn't insta-kill shields at full health 100% of the time - apparently the additional time somebody's stuck in his shield with the new mechanics would've caused that to happen.

But 2.0 is an exceptionally high multiplier and full Waft has always done a good chunk of damage to shield. I wouldn't be surprised if a full Waft insta-kills shields at like 75% or even more health now.

 

[Locke 06]

That's probably what happened. Shield breaker had the amount of shield damage done lowered to make sure it doesn't insta-kill shields at full health 100% of the time - apparently the additional time somebody's stuck in his shield with the new mechanics would've caused that to happen.

But 2.0 is an exceptionally high multiplier and full Waft has always done a good chunk of damage to shield. I wouldn't be surprised if a full Waft insta-kills shields at like 75% or even more health now.

Clarification: your shield doesn't deteriorate when you're in hitlag, so the multiplier doesn't increase the amount of functional shield damage it does.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Clarification: your shield doesn't deteriorate when you're in hitlag, so the multiplier doesn't increase the amount of functional shield damage it does.

That's what I thought. That said, the extra seven frames of shieldstun would, right? Do we know how fast shields deteriorate over time in general (as in, how much of an increase those seven frames would be)?

 

[Locke 06]

That's what I thought. That said, the extra seven frames of shieldstun would, right? Do we know how fast shields deteriorate over time in general (as in, how much of an increase those seven frames would be)?

Correct. (Edit: possibly incorrect. Now I no longer know)

SB's shieldstun on a tipper should be 9 frames now, up from 3. Assuming that the rate of degeneration is the same as it was before (7.7 per second, according to this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Shield), SB is weaker than it was before, but safer on shield.

Edit: Should be 8 frames now, not 9.

According to this post, it's 7.7%/second = 7.7%/60 frames.

Yay Smashboards search function. I wish I had a better source for you though. It's been a question of mine for quite some time.

 

[Vipermoon]

TheReflexWonder ~ Gheb ~

From what I see, even in shield stun you don't lose shield HP. Besides, if you did lose HP while in shield stun, I bet 7 frames isn't going to get you more than 1 HP.

Gheb, Shield Breaker was nerfed because it was nerfed. The shield changes don't help it break shields. I'm tired of people claiming this. I kept hearing this nonsense at The Big House too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That doesn't really explain what happened though. If a shield deteriorates by 7.7% / 60 frames then I don't see how these +7 frames that Reflex mentioned would be enough to break shields.

 

[Vipermoon]

That doesn't really explain what happened though. If a shield deteriorates by 7.7% / 60 frames then I don't see how these +7 frames that Reflex mentioned would be enough to break shields.

Well there is nothing else in play. 27%, no extra shield damage. They low shield health I guess.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Freshness bonus and staleness affect damage done to shields, for all it's worth, but that's pretty minuscule, too (shouldn't bring it above 30%, anyway).

Would be interesting if hitlag multipliers also added shield damage or something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well there is nothing else in play. 27%, no extra shield damage. They low shield health I guess.

Not to be a rumor monger, but I'm testing and it feels like there's more at play. This may have been the case before the patch.

I am breaking a shield by having a character start their full shield a few frames before an uncharged Wario U-Smash (which does 16%), drop their shield as Wario walks towards them to get close again, and then shield a few frames before Full Waft (which does 27%). This is also in Training Mode, which means that freshness isn't in play.

Shields are suggested to have 50 HP, so that's a decent bit of shield health unaccounted for. Maybe they just have less than 50 HP, or something else is going on.

 

[Nobie]

Not to be a rumor monger, but I'm testing and it feels like there's more at play. This may have been the case before the patch.

I am breaking a shield by having a character start their full shield a few frames before an uncharged Wario U-Smash (which does 16%), drop their shield as Wario walks towards them to get close again, and then shield a few frames before Full Waft (which does 27%). This is also in Training Mode, which means that freshness isn't in play.

Shields are suggested to have 50 HP, so that's a decent bit of shield health unaccounted for. Maybe they just have less than 50 HP, or something else is going on.

Are you sure the higher shield stun leading the opponent to hold shield for longer (causing it to deplete more than it used to) isn't causing this?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are you sure the higher shield stun leading the opponent to hold shield for longer (causing it to deplete more than it used to) isn't causing this?

It only adds seven extra frames of shieldstun. If shields take 7.7 damage per second over time, that doesn't even account for an extra 1 damage (barely below that much).

 

[Ghostbone]

Not to be a rumor monger, but I'm testing and it feels like there's more at play. This may have been the case before the patch.

I am breaking a shield by having a character start their full shield a few frames before an uncharged Wario U-Smash (which does 16%), drop their shield as Wario walks towards them to get close again, and then shield a few frames before Full Waft (which does 27%). This is also in Training Mode, which means that freshness isn't in play.

Shields are suggested to have 50 HP, so that's a decent bit of shield health unaccounted for. Maybe they just have less than 50 HP, or something else is going on.

I remember someone going on about how shulk bair > buster f-smash (which does almost 38%) breaks shields this patch when it didn't before (and it certainly seems to break a full shield when I tested)
Maybe shields were nerfed to 40 hp? Maybe there are just a lot more moves that do extra shield damage?

 

[ぱみゅ]

There has to be a new formula, shields' HP was not reduced if Bowser Bomber truly does not break shields.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I remember someone going on about how shulk bair > buster f-smash (which does almost 38%) breaks shields this patch when it didn't before (and it certainly seems to break a full shield when I tested)
Maybe shields were nerfed to 40 hp? Maybe there are just a lot more moves that do extra shield damage?

If moves had extra shield damage attached to them, this would've been shown in the data dump. It's worth noting that Shulk F-Smash has a 1.5 hitlag multiplier on the first hit and a 2.0 hitlag multiplier on the second hit, which is something it has in common with Wario Waft.

Going in another direction, maybe the +2 shieldstun addition is also adding an extra 2 shield damage or something similar...?

 

[Ghostbone]

Does Ganon's warlock punch do extra shield damage?
Because the reverse one (does 37%) almost breaks shields on its own now, I don't think there's anywhere near a 13% buffer for the opponent (jab breaks it right after even though they get a little bit of regen time between the warlock punch and jab)

 

[Ghostbone]

Are we sure shield HP didn't get a global nerf this patch, or has it just not really been looked into?
Because there are a lot of new shield breaking strings that don't do anywhere near 50% (more like 40%), and your shield doesn't actually decay while in shieldstun/lag.

Shulk bair > buster f-smash it the main thing I'm looking at here, only does 38% yet pretty much breaks a full shield now. There's not enough time of the other person holding shield before/after to account for a 12% buffer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reverse Aerial Warlock punch deals 40 damage with no extra shield damage, and it appears that this breaks shields in Training Mode if the victim holds Shield for more than a few frames beyond the powershield window beforehand (as in, this move deals about 99% of a shield's full health).

Unless this move gained shield damage since 1.0.4 or the Darkness element deals extra shield damage (both seem very unlikely), full shield health is either around 41 "HP" or shield damage formula is different.

 

[Teshie U]

^Wouldn't the shieldstun from a 40% move force you to hold your shield for the remaining frames you have left?

 

[Ghostbone]

^Wouldn't the shieldstun from a 40% move force you to hold your shield for the remaining frames you have left?

I'm fairly sure your shield doesn't decay in shieldstun, and even if it did that doesn't make up the extra 10% shield HP you had last patch.

There has to be a new formula, shields' HP was not reduced if Bowser Bomber truly does not break shields.

I can't get it NOT to break shields (aerial one)

Is there a vid of it not breaking shields this patch? (ignoring perfect shield of first hit)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

^Wouldn't the shieldstun from a 40% move force you to hold your shield for the remaining frames you have left?

This is true, but testing seems to suggest that you stop taking the shield damage over time during both hitlag freeze and shieldstun. I could not create a situation where a victim's shield broke during shieldstun or hitlag freeze; it was always beforehand.

 

[jet56]

Ghostbone you are right, i did post about it in the previous page on the added shield decay for the combo you mentioned, even if we did account for it, it isn't nearly enough hp loss to compensate for the new shield break string. I also believe there was a nerf to shield HP, or a buff to shield damage for all moves. maybe the formula for shield damage was changed? I will personally look into it, and try to determine if its a buff to shield damage for moves, or a nerf to shield hp. I'm hypothesizing its the latter, and that the new shield hp is 40. the number is just an educated guess though.

 

[jet56]

I don't know all the technical talk either but from what I understand (I could be wrong) is now when an attack lands on a shield, the person who shielded the attack has to wait a bit in his shield before he gets to do anything. I think before you could shield and immediately retaliate but now I guess it depends on the attack on how long the opponent will stay shielding.

yeah thats the short of it, the shield was nerfed so more moves can be safe on shield, and to encourage more aggressive gameplay. TBH, unless you are into knowing your characters frame data, and how frames work in the game to get an edge, you really don't have to worry about the technical talk. remember though, is that its the technical aspect that is explored by smashers here that gives everyone else combos, shield pressures, and which moves are safe on shield.

edit: my bad on the double post.