Meta Shields in Smash4 / 1.1.1>

[[Deuce]]

I think Marth's and Roy's non-tippered moves actually get less safe, due to a shielding defender now having the same amount of of hitlag as the attacker.

What was roy's sourspot modifier?

 

[A_Kae]

What was roy's sourspot modifier?

Marth and Roy are both 0.7x hitlag on sourspots.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

Marth and Roy are both 0.7x hitlag on sourspots.

Upsetting that they couldn't get a more substantial boost. Was the patch good for them in general?

 

[Shaya]

Upsetting that they couldn't get a more substantial boost. Was the patch good for them in general?

On their sweetspots it's pure positives really. Sour spots are otherwise worse.
In my opinion it hurts Roy more than Marth, who's well spaced moves have comparatively come out worse (1 frame safer in contrast to most character's 4+), but still, they're both hurt by it. Marth has lost some incentives for trying to space sour spots on shield (fair, jab, bair basically), obviously the whole weaker hence better combo stuff is there still.

If we were to take a view that all characters are equally buffed by this (they're not), then in contrast Marth and Roy are now closer to Lucina in some "skill based" areas, while Lucina isn't any better than other characters from this. I could see Roy's sour spots being touched up next patch, Marth's are probably fine.

Other characters with sub 1.0 hit lag modifiers (generally projectiles) have lost frame safety too, so they're fractionally worse off just like they are (Roy more so than Marth) depending on their reliance; Mario fireball and Luigi's long range fireball are going to have their impacts for sure. .

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've been doing some testing and some calculating based on Dantarion's Master Core files. Shaya's formula appears to be correct, but I have to add a clear note about how the frames are counted. If an attack would hit on frame 4 and do three frames of shieldstun, the frames spent in shieldstun are frames 5, 6, and 7 (that is, frame 4 where direct contact actually happens is just "eaten" by having your shield hit at all). I denote how negative on block all of Pac-Man's various moves are since I projected him to be one of the biggest winners from this; he actually just *barely* misses some extremely powerful thresholds with this patch (as in "if he had one more frame of advantage on a few moves, it would be extremely powerful").

Pac-Man shield advantage/disadvantage (patch 1.1.1):

Jab1: -12 (free to act), -5 (hit with jab2)
Jab2: -14 (free to act), -5 (hit with jab3)
Jab3: -25
Dash Attack: -6 (last hit), -6 (in-between hits)
Ftilt (all angles): -19
Utilt: -20
Dtilt: -16
Fsmash: -23/-24 (depends on spacing, closer/weaker hit will be -24)
Usmash: -23 (first hit is a true blockstring into second hit)
Dsmash: -27

All smashes are assumed uncharged. The minus frames mean that that's the time during which you are stuck in an animation while your opponent is able to do a OoS option (after they expire, you can either have your hitbox actually hitting that very frame for the jab chains/subsequent hits of dash attack or are free to block for the other moves).

What this means meta wise is that if you try to grab Pac-Man with a frame 6 grab while blocking his jab combo you will trade with the next jab in the chain. A grab trading with a hit results in the grabbed character going instantly into a ground break and taking 3% damage. As it turns out, if you do this trade with Pac-Man's jab2, you end up doing 1% more damage than you take (Pac-Man's jab2 only does 2% damage) and end up at minor frame advantage (a small handful of frames, not enough to really exploit). Likewise, characters with frame 6 grabs can grab after any hit of Pac-Man's dash attack (and frame 7 grabs can trade which is favorable with the first two hits).

This kinda leads me to believe that it's likely the story won't change for all that many characters with this additional shieldstun. Most moves are still very minus on block and only safe due to spacing.

 

[Sabaca]

I actually made this

Also, it's apparently inaccurate now. Here's a better/updated one (did I do something else wrong @Ulevo?):
https://trinket.io/python/d1d65e97ff?toggleCode=true

I have a couple questions too.
1. So is hitlag irrelevant when talking about shield safety now?
2. Do shield lock frames = shield drop frames? So if a move does >10.5%, the defender can drop shield immediately? Or an I interpreting this wrong?

Is the formula he uses now correct? I don't get where the "-1" comes from in his calculation "frameadvantage=shieldstun-lag-1"
Shouldn't it be just "frameadvantage=shieldstun-lag" or did I miss something?

 

[PSIRockin245]

Which characters get stronger?

 

[TTTTTsd]

This kinda leads me to believe that it's likely the story won't change for all that many characters with this additional shieldstun. Most moves are still very minus on block and only safe due to spacing.

Yeah, but I can attest that I don't think Doc is one of those ATM. His Bair is wacko now (I think it's like, -5 or -4 now on sweetspot? Not sure).

It mostly makes multihitting moves better on shield too (Doc Dair, Down-B, Mario Dair, etc.)

 

[Swoops]

Shaya

Sorry if somebody has answered this before, but I couldn't find it. How does the hitlag modifier factor into the shield stun formula, if at all? Is it just a simple multiplier on shield stun?

Also, I'm assuming Roy and Marth's sweet spots have a 1.25x modifier?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Shaya

Sorry if somebody has answered this before, but I couldn't find it. How does the hitlag modifier factor into the shield stun formula, if at all? Is it just a simple multiplier on shield stun?

Also, I'm assuming Roy and Marth's sweet spots have a 1.25x modifier?

It doesn't factor into shieldstun itself, at least not directly. What happens when an attack connects is that both the attacker and the defender freeze in place for a few frames before the foe suffers knockback. This is known as hitlag, and this window is when SDI may be inputted. Hitlag duration is normally determined by the amount of damage dealt, but moves may have multipliers to modify the number of frames of hitlag. This used to behave oddly with shields: a shielding defender would always suffer hitlag with a 1.0x multiplier, regardless of the actual hitlag multiplier on the move, resulting in the attacker being frozen in place for more or less time than the defender. Since this could leave the defender free to take action before the attacker, or vice versa, it affected the safety of moves on shield. Now, a shielding defender always suffers the same amount of hitlag as the attacker, which of course changes the safety on shield of a great many moves.

That said, there's a change from 1.1.0 that's still in effect. In 1.1.0, when hitting a shield, attacker hitlag with a >1.0x modifier was divided by 1.25, to a minimum of 1.0x. At the time, this made moves that would be unsafe on shield less unsafe. In 1.1.1, that effect still happens but now affects both attacker and defender hitlag. For non-projectile moves, this is largely irrelevant aside from possibly screwing up your inputs if you're in hitlag for less time than you expect. For projectiles, it makes them less safe on shield than the new shieldlag behaviour would otherwise make them.

 

[Swoops]

Ahhh, I think I understand.

So certain moves are less/more unsafe relative to the previous patch. In this patch, the hitlag ratio should always be 1:1 versus before where the defender's was fixed, creating an imbalance when certain moves had hitlag modifiers.

Essentially in the previous patch the hitlag modifiers were affecting the shield stun formula, but now it will always be [(Damage/1.75) + 2] x 1 (hitlag). Is that somewhat on point?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Ahhh, I think I understand.

So certain moves are less/more unsafe relative to the previous patch. In this patch, the hitlag ratio should always be 1:1 versus before where the defender's was fixed, creating an imbalance when certain moves had hitlag modifiers.

Essentially in the previous patch the hitlag modifiers were affecting the shield stun formula, but now it will always be [(Damage/1.75) + 2] x 1 (hitlag). Is that somewhat on point?

Sorta. Shieldlag and shieldstun are technically separate, but yes the gist of it is that hitlag modifiers no longer affect the safety of melee attacks on shield, but now do affect the safety of projectiles on shield.

 

[Zonderion]

I know this is getting redundant, but I've got to ask. I understand that landing an attack on frame 4 of a shield, the shield stun and shield lock will overlap.

So a move that introduces 6 frames or less of shield stun will expire before the shield lock expires, allowing any OOS options between the ending shield stun frames and the ending shield lock frames.

My question, is an attack that introduces 4 frames of shield stun that hits a shield that is 6 frames into shield lock (frame 10), will the defender still have 1 frame to perform OOS option, or is it overridden by the shield stun?

Does the shield stun automatically override the shield lock in all applications, I guess is my question.

If so, does it make more sense for an attacker to hit the shield later so the defender has less frames to perform OOS options?

Can the defender continue holding shield to ensure having more frames of shield lock, which means more frames for OOS options?

 

[HeroMystic]

My question, is an attack that introduces 4 frames of shield stun that hits a shield that is 6 frames into shield lock (frame 10), will the defender still have 1 frame to perform OOS option, or is it overridden by the shield stun?

It is indeed overridden.

Does the shield stun automatically override the shield lock in all applications, I guess is my question.

Yes.

If so, does it make more sense for an attacker to hit the shield later so the defender has less frames to perform OOS options?

OOS options are still valid after shield stun. What actually changes is dropping shield is a more potent option, since OOS options are less centralized.

Can the defender continue holding shield to ensure having more frames of shield lock, which means more frames for OOS options?

No. Shield lock frames never change. If you continue to hold shield after shield stun, you'll just reapply shield drop frames.

 

[Zonderion]

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I've been doing some testing and some calculating based on Dantarion's Master Core files. Shaya's formula appears to be correct, but I have to add a clear note about how the frames are counted. If an attack would hit on frame 4 and do three frames of shieldstun, the frames spent in shieldstun are frames 5, 6, and 7 (that is, frame 4 where direct contact actually happens is just "eaten" by having your shield hit at all).

Ooooh. So the frame you get struck is NOT counted as a shieldstun/lag frame? Also, isn't the order of operations hit --> shield hitlag (the part where you freeze in place)--> shield hitsun (the part where the attacker is not effected) --> shield drop/OoS?

Also, it seems unclear... if you are struck on shield frame 4 by a move that has 2 frames of shield hitstun... how many frames of shield lock do you have left? If you don't count frame 4 as a remaining shield lock frame, you should have 7-2 = 5 frames left. If you count frame 4 as a remaining shield lock frame, you should get 8-2 = 6 frames left. I suppose it depends on how the hit frame is counted with respect to shield lock frames.

 

[erico9001]

mm...

I'm fairly convinced that shields globally have less health now. Either that, or somebody needs to explain something to me.

Shulk's Bair -> Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel -> F-Smash used to not break shields. It did a lot of shield damage, but was never enough, even in the custom monado arts which deal more damage. You had to do Dair (both hits) -> MALLC -> uncharged F-smash.

Now it does break shields.

If not for weaker shields, what explains this? Does it deal more shield damage? If it did, wouldn't that be in the data dump?

 

[Apeirohaon]

• High Shield Stun moves now completely nullifies the advantage of OOS options.

OOS options still have the advantage of having you not having to go through shield drop frames though, right?

 

[jet56]

mm...

I'm fairly convinced that shields globally have less health now. Either that, or somebody needs to explain something to me.

Shulk's Bair -> Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel -> F-Smash used to not break shields. It did a lot of shield damage, but was never enough, even in the custom monado arts which deal more damage. You had to do Dair (both hits) -> MALLC -> uncharged F-smash.

Now it does break shields.

If not for weaker shields, what explains this? Does it deal more shield damage? If it did, wouldn't that be in the data dump?

hmmm, don't quote me on this, but i believe you suffer shield decay even when in shield stun. so if shield stun is increased, it would mean that they would be stuck in shield longer, and thuse suffer more shield decay.
smash 4 shields have 50 hp, and deplete at 7.7 hp per second.
1 frame: .128 hp
10 frames: 1.28 hp

so, i doesn't seem like a lot, but it might be just enough to get the shield break you were looking for when in the pre patch you couldn't. lets takes shulks bair for example.
pre-patch: 12% dmg, 4.7 frames of shield stun.
post-patch: 12% dmg, 9.8 frames of shield stun.
shulks F smash:
pre-patch: 5.5/13% dmg(both hits), 2.1/5 frames of shield stun.
post-patch: 5.5/13% dmg(both hits), 6.1/10.4 frames of shield stun.

so adding it all up shield decay we come to:
pre-patch: 11.8 frames of shield stun, or about 1.45 HP decay.
post-patch: 26.3 frames of sheild stun, or about 3.4 HP decay.

while there may be more to the HP and shield damage, this may be one of the factors involved. just my thoughts on it.

 

[HeroMystic]

OOS options still have the advantage of having you not having to go through shield drop frames though, right?

As long as you let go of shield and buffer an action, you don't suffer shield drop frames.

 

[Yikarur]

You always suffer shield drop frames if you don't want to use an OoS Option and didn't powershield the move.

 

[erico9001]

holding shield tests 1.1.0 3ds (1/4x training mode, divide by 4 at end):
6.47s

holding shield test 1.1.1 Wii U (1/4x training mode, divide by 4 at end):
6.48s

differences are obviously only due to human error.

So... hmm.

Global change to shield damage? Was Shulk actually given more shield damage, specifically in buster? Was the shield decay adjusted to match the lesser shield health? hrm..

hmmm, don't quote me on this, but i believe you suffer shield decay even when in shield stun. so if shield stun is increased, it would mean that they would be stuck in shield longer, and thuse suffer more shield decay.
smash 4 shields have 50 hp, and deplete at 7.7 hp per second.
1 frame: .128 hp
10 frames: 1.28 hp

so, i doesn't seem like a lot, but it might be just enough to get the shield break you were looking for when in the pre patch you couldn't. lets takes shulks bair for example.
pre-patch: 12% dmg, 4.7 frames of shield stun.
post-patch: 12% dmg, 9.8 frames of shield stun.
shulks F smash:
pre-patch: 5.5/13% dmg(both hits), 2.1/5 frames of shield stun.
post-patch: 5.5/13% dmg(both hits), 6.1/10.4 frames of shield stun.

so adding it all up shield decay we come to:
pre-patch: 11.8 frames of shield stun, or about 1.45 HP decay.
post-patch: 26.3 frames of sheild stun, or about 3.4 HP decay.

while there may be more to the HP and shield damage, this may be one of the factors involved. just my thoughts on it.

Well, even before the update, we had Shulk holding shield. He was holding shield for the same amount of time. The only difference would be at the end of the move, with the few frames difference due to the new mechanic. The Buster F-Smash 2nd hit is 16.1% damage, which means 6.28 -> 11.2 hitstun, or about 5 frames difference in hitstun. Which, using your 7.7 hp per second, would only mean a .64% difference in shield damage. I know this is not enough, as again, you couldn't do this with Bair -> Decisive Buster MALLC -> F-smash, which deals 2.77% damage extra.

 

[Pikabunz]

Can someone explain this? I shield ZSS's dsmash on frame 4 of my shield and I was able to drop my shield after frame 10 instead of frame 11. Why did I have one less frame of shield lock?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Can someone explain this? I shield ZSS's dsmash on frame 4 of my shield and I was able to drop my shield after frame 10 instead of frame 11. Why did I have one less frame of shield lock?

That may accidentally answer my question! If what you say is true, the frame you get may also count as a shield lock frame. I'll try to look into it.

 

[HeroMystic]

You always suffer shield drop frames if you don't want to use an OoS Option and didn't powershield the move.

There goes my streak on always being right.

 

[Lavani]

Can someone explain this? I shield ZSS's dsmash on frame 4 of my shield and I was able to drop my shield after frame 10 instead of frame 11. Why did I have one less frame of shield lock?

That sounds to me like shield lock might just be canceled altogether after shielding a hit.

If you shield a max range lemon with frame 4 of your shield, what frame do you drop the shield?

 

[Locke 06]

That sounds to me like shield lock might just be canceled altogether after shielding a hit.

If you shield a max range lemon with frame 4 of your shield, what frame do you drop the shield?

Don't scare me like that. My lemons are already worse .

Jab on shield - early shield vs late shield
On early shield (f4): Jab hits on 4, Pikachu and opponent move on 9, shield drop on 15.
On later shield (f8): Jab hits on 8, Pikachu and opponent move on 13, shield drop on 15.

if shield lock was canceled altogether after shielding a hit, these shield drop values should have been different.

Spoiler: pellet test

pellet hits f4-shield on f24, shield drop on f31 (pika f2 jab hits on frame 39 meaning FAF is f38)

 

[Shaya]

I would assume, if anything, it has something to do with it's 0x hit lag modifier messing with things?

8 damage is 6[.57] shield stun, and that's when you're shield dropping although it should be +1 artificial stun.


Are you doing this in training mode at 1/4 or 1/2? If that's the case I think it may do how the game at 1/2 or 1/4 speed is at 120 or 240fps and hence 6.57 frames of shield stun is becomes "26" frames of shield stun rather than 24?

 

[Touchebag]

On their sweetspots it's pure positives really. Sour spots are otherwise worse.
In my opinion it hurts Roy more than Marth, who's well spaced moves have comparatively come out worse (1 frame safer in contrast to most character's 4+), but still, they're both hurt by it. Marth has lost some incentives for trying to space sour spots on shield (fair, jab, bair basically), obviously the whole weaker hence better combo stuff is there still.

If we were to take a view that all characters are equally buffed by this (they're not), then in contrast Marth and Roy are now closer to Lucina in some "skill based" areas, while Lucina isn't any better than other characters from this. I could see Roy's sour spots being touched up next patch, Marth's are probably fine.

Other characters with sub 1.0 hit lag modifiers (generally projectiles) have lost frame safety too, so they're fractionally worse off just like they are (Roy more so than Marth) depending on their reliance; Mario fireball and Luigi's long range fireball are going to have their impacts for sure. .

So if I'm reading this right you're saying that Marth is stronger (or at least safer) compared to before but it is even more important to hit the tippers?

 

[Ray-Den]

Can someone pls explain me, why Roy doesnt benefit as much, as other characters from the Shield Stun changes? I thought the whole deal is, that the Shield Stun in general for every move is way higher.
Why is Roy kinda an exception?
And what do you mean by "shield lock overriden by the shield stun"?

Thanks in advance

 

[Sabaca]

I actually made this

Also, it's apparently inaccurate now. Here's a better/updated one (did I do something else wrong @Ulevo?):
https://trinket.io/python/d1d65e97ff?toggleCode=true

I have a couple questions too.
1. So is hitlag irrelevant when talking about shield safety now?
2. Do shield lock frames = shield drop frames? So if a move does >10.5%, the defender can drop shield immediately? Or an I interpreting this wrong?

Is the formula he uses now correct? I don't get where the "-1" comes from in his calculation "frameadvantage=shieldstun-lag-1"
Shouldn't it be just "frameadvantage=shieldstun-lag" or did I miss something?

So does noone know it?

 

[Zonderion]

Can someone pls explain me, why Roy doesnt benefit as much, as other characters from the Shield Stun changes? I thought the whole deal is, that the Shield Stun in general for every move is way higher.
Why is Roy kinda an exception?
And what do you mean by "shield lock overriden by the shield stun"?

Thanks in advance

Not entirely sure about Roy, but Luma actually does less shield stun in 1.1.1 than in 1.1.0 while everyone else actually does more, so its not just Roy that didn't get full benefits.

Shield Lock = Shield is up, but OoS are possible.
Shield Stun = Shield is up, but you can't do anything.

If you are holding your shield button, you are in Shield Lock. If you let go of your shield button, you go into shield drop animation.

However there is a minimum 7 frames of Shield Lock anytime you simply hit your Shield Button (Power Shield is an exception).

So while in Shield Lock, if your Shield is hit, the Shield Stun will override the Shield Lock, meaning you won't have any OOS options until the Shield Stun frames ends.

 

[Doval]

hmmm, don't quote me on this, but i believe you suffer shield decay even when in shield stun. so if shield stun is increased, it would mean that they would be stuck in shield longer, and thuse suffer more shield decay.

This is correct. I've had my shield break during shield stun before.

Can someone pls explain me, why Roy doesnt benefit as much, as other characters from the Shield Stun changes? I thought the whole deal is, that the Shield Stun in general for every move is way higher.
Why is Roy kinda an exception?
And what do you mean by "shield lock overriden by the shield stun"?

Thanks in advance

Certain attacks inflict more or less hit lag than usual. Almost all of Roy and Marth's attacks have hit lag multipliers so that they inflict less hit lag than usual on sourspot hits and more hit lag on sweetspot hits. Pre-patch, the hit lag modifier didn't apply to a shielding opponent, so if Roy hit a shield with a sourspot hit, he would have less hit lag than his opponent, making sourspot hits slightly safer than they normally would be (compared to attacks that do the same damage but don't have hit lag multipliers). Post-patch, the hit lag modifier applies to the shielding opponent as well, so Roy no longer has less hit lag than his opponent. Of course, the stun is higher post-patch, but every character benefited from that change, so Roy more or less breaks even.

However, the converse is true for his sweetspot hits - they were less safe pre-patch because of Roy suffering more hit lag than a shielding opponent. So his sweetspot hits got double the benefit - Roy's hit lag is reduced and he gets more stun as well.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Not entirely sure about Roy, but Luma actually does less shield stun in 1.1.1 than in 1.1.0 while everyone else actually does more, so its not just Roy that didn't get full benefits.

Shield Lock = Shield is up, but OoS are possible.
Shield Stun = Shield is up, but you can't do anything.

If you are holding your shield button, you are in Shield Lock. If you let go of your shield button, you go into shield drop animation.

However there is a minimum 7 frames of Shield Lock anytime you simply hit your Shield Button (Power Shield is an exception).

So while in Shield Lock, if your Shield is hit, the Shield Stun will override the Shield Lock, meaning you won't have any OOS options until the Shield Stun frames ends.

Shield lock is the minimum 11 frames that you have to hold shield for before you're able to drop shield. In technical terms, it's the animation the character goes through as they first put up their shield. You can take out-of-shield actions such as rolls or jumps during shield lock, but dropping shield is not possible.

 

[Karsticles]

mm...

I'm fairly convinced that shields globally have less health now. Either that, or somebody needs to explain something to me.

Shulk's Bair -> Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel -> F-Smash used to not break shields. It did a lot of shield damage, but was never enough, even in the custom monado arts which deal more damage. You had to do Dair (both hits) -> MALLC -> uncharged F-smash.

Now it does break shields.

If not for weaker shields, what explains this? Does it deal more shield damage? If it did, wouldn't that be in the data dump?

I thought shield damage received a global buff, too. I have broken way more shields now than I have before with Mewtwo, and not with blockstrings or shield pressure, but burst damage where it wouldn't have before. Wasn't that why Marth's Shield Breaker got a nerf, to balance out the shield damage buff?

 

[erico9001]

I thought shield damage received a global buff, too. I have broken way more shields now than I have before with Mewtwo, and not with blockstrings or shield pressure, but burst damage where it wouldn't have before. Wasn't that why Marth's Shield Breaker got a nerf, to balance out the shield damage buff?

Either shield nerf or shield damage buff; they both are practically the same. I remember seeing that thought in the patch thread, but nothing seems to have been officially stated (perhaps from lack of evidence/knowledge). I could really use some information on the specifics of it, as I want to figure out how much Monado Shield's shield has been affected, if at all.

 

[Karsticles]

Either shield nerf or shield damage buff; they both are practically the same. I remember seeing that thought in the patch thread, but nothing seems to have been officially stated (perhaps from lack of evidence/knowledge). I could really use some information on the specifics of it, as I want to figure out how much Monado Shield's shield has been affected, if at all.

I thought everyone was talking about a shield damage buff at first, but now I talk about it and I feel like I had a dream. My experiences match the dream, though, so I'm still talking about it. For Mewtwo, Fair into charged Shadow Ball has broken a shield or two since the patch. I don't feel like that's just a change in shieldstun leading to more shield decay.

 

[Meru.]

Formula of shieldstun of projectiles seems to be damage / 3.5 + 2. Source:

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649878327105208320/photo/1

Apparently this guy is like the Japanese Smash scientist so he is a credible source. His other table on normal shieldstun was also correct.

 

[Zage]

Formula of shieldstun of projectiles seems to be damage / 3.5 + 2. Source:

https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649878327105208320/photo/1

Apparently this guy is like the Japanese Smash scientist so he is a credible source. His other table on normal shieldstun was also correct.

I'm assuming that since Pac-man's Bonus Fruit are considered Items and not projectiles they follow the (damage / 1.75) + 2 formula? Could you shed some insight here Thinkaman please?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'd assume thrown items are treated as projectiles.