Meta Shields in Smash4 / 1.1.1>

[Blobface]

If it's true that shields always had 40 hp, we should really examine our degen/regen rates as well.

 

[Blue Banana]

Blue Banana
Shieldstun and defender hitlag formulas weren't the only changes you have to consider. Apparently shieldstun overlaps shieldlock now, so it removes a lot of safety that those attacks had previously. (Normally in exchange for higher shieldstun, keep in mind.)

Regardless, I'm doubtful that projectiles follow what we understand to be normal 1.1.1 shielding mechanic changes anyways.

Oops, I forgot to consider that fact about how shieldstun works in 1.1.1. In that case, I can understand why Olimar's smash attacks are less safe on shield than they were before.

 

[Xygonn]

If it's true that shields always had 40 hp, we should really examine our degen/regen rates as well.

I don't think so, because super missile plus charge shot didn't always give a shield break, it does now. It's 43 shield damage. If someone has an unpatched version and could test it out, I think that would be best. The 50 HP number was everywhere before this patch.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't think so, because super missile plus charge shot didn't always give a shield break, it does now. It's 43 shield damage. If someone has an unpatched version and could test it out, I think that would be best. The 50 HP number was everywhere before this patch.

The two moves always broke a shield. I just did it on 1.10. I've known at least a few Samus mains that touted this very trick to be used against opponents that refuse to approach her. You should all be more forthright with her tech, lest such important information fall through the cracks.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Guys, I don't know if anyone suggested this, but is it possible for the the attacks with bonus shield damage only do the bonus amount? For instance,
Headbutt and Shield Breaker only do 25 percent on shield, not X (x being the base damage of the attack) + bonus shield damage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bonus shield damage is not affected by stale moves, while shield damage from actual damage is. These things are applied in 1.1.1.

 

[Xygonn]

The two moves always broke a shield. I just did it on 1.10. I've known at least a few Samus mains that touted this very trick to be used against opponents that refuse to approach her. You should all be more forthright with her tech, lest such important information fall through the cracks.

I wrote a whole thread on Samus' shield damage for the 1.0.4 patch. 50 HP was consistent with my tests. SM+CS was not enough if the opponent released shield between SM and charge shot. I only got one shield break that way and I was asking around if the shield HP had been reduced. Everyone said no, but I didn't do more lab work to check.

 

[Ghostbone]

Idk if we should care too much about shields in previous patches because there's too much anecdotal "Nah it seemed like shield health was higher", "nah imo it felt the same". It's clear we were probably missing something about shields before but we don't know if they were changed somewhere between 1.0 and 1.1.0 or whether they've never changed.

We should just be collecting empirical data for this patch and determining the exact nature of shields right now.

 

[LancerStaff]

So I found a 1.1.0 Wii U and recreated my test. 42 damage broke a shield.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I wrote a whole thread on Samus' shield damage for the 1.0.4 patch. 50 HP was consistent with my tests. SM+CS was not enough if the opponent released shield between SM and charge shot. I only got one shield break that way and I was asking around if the shield HP had been reduced. Everyone said no, but I didn't do more lab work to check.

You used the entire length of FD, correct? Missile first, charge shot after. With Samus and the victim at either side of it, the missile and charge shot connect within frames of each other. No time for shield regen/degen.

 

[Xygonn]

You used the entire length of FD, correct? Missile first, charge shot after. With Samus and the victim at either side of it, the missile and charge shot connect within frames of each other. No time for shield regen/degen.

Right at the edge of super missile range, yeah. That was in 1.0.4 though. I suspect the change was in 1.0.6. That's when "weird" shield breaks started happening that didn't line up with my thread. I suspect the ones that did line up just happened to be stale or something.

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-gameplay-videos.369306/page-10#post-19250224

There's me questioning if shields changed that patch. I should have gone to the lab instead of writing it off as placebo.

 

[Vipermoon]

Idk if we should care too much about shields in previous patches because there's too much anecdotal "Nah it seemed like shield health was higher", "nah imo it felt the same". It's clear we were probably missing something about shields before but we don't know if they were changed somewhere between 1.0 and 1.1.0 or whether they've never changed.

We should just be collecting empirical data for this patch and determining the exact nature of shields right now.

I disagree. We can do both. I'm sure many would like to know if there was a patch(es) that decreased shield HP.

 

[Ghostbone]

I disagree. We can do both. I'm sure many would like to know if there was a patch(es) that decreased shield HP.

Right now it's confusing people way more than it's helping though.

 

[Eureka]

Blue Banana
Shieldstun and defender hitlag formulas weren't the only changes you have to consider. Apparently shieldstun overlaps shieldlock now, so it removes a lot of safety that those attacks had previously. (Normally in exchange for higher shieldstun, keep in mind.)

Regardless, I'm doubtful that projectiles follow what we understand to be normal 1.1.1 shielding mechanic changes anyways.

I'm pretty sure Luma up tilt has a high hit lag multiplier, so that would explain the higher hitstun. Also it's probably counted as a projectile, seeing how Rosalina continues her uptilt with no problem.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Right at the edge of super missile range, yeah. That was in 1.0.4 though. I suspect the change was in 1.0.6. That's when "weird" shield breaks started happening that didn't line up with my thread. I suspect the ones that did line up just happened to be stale or something.

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-gameplay-videos.369306/page-10#post-19250224

There's me questioning if shields changed that patch. I should have gone to the lab instead of writing it off as placebo.

I'm afraid anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that shields were different prior to 1.06. It's highly more likely that Samus players didn't know about that precise way to combo Super Missile and Charge shot until the game was a few months old.

Furthermore, I already showed footage of 1.02, with Lucina charging Shieldbreaker a little less than halfway for a full shield break. Anybody that wants to argue shields were different in 1.01 (NA 3DS release) than be my guest. I just don't see the point at this rate.

 

[Xygonn]

I'm afraid anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that shields were different prior to 1.06. It's highly more likely that Samus players didn't know about that precise way to combo Super Missile and Charge shot until the game was a few months old.

Furthermore, I already showed footage of 1.02, with Lucina charging Shieldbreaker a little less than halfway for a full shield break. Anybody that wants to argue shields were different in 1.01 (NA 3DS release) than be my guest. I just don't see the point at this rate.

I think you're right. We must've messed up the testing. But that 50 HP number was literally everywhere. I didn't make it up, but I sure helped perpetuate it.

 

[Shaya]

Well, the numbers came from somewhere towards the start of the game for whatever reason.
Salem was doing data mining for shieldbreaks and I recall him showing shield breaks were tied to 50 damage + a minimum amount of knockback on the move; this was on facebook.
Others made assertions that the amount of shield damage taken by an opponent was no longer .8x but rather 1.0x.

How things could've been so wrong/confused for this long is.... perplexing.

 

[Locke 06]

I had remembered propagating 50 hp as a shield break too before the Wii u dropped. However, I only remember breaking shields in training with 2 bobombs (50%) to practice shield break punishes. Also 200 attack Samus fully charged charge shot (50%)

Just checked my 1.0.8 3ds and a bombchu and bobomb (18+25=43) broke an f5 shield. Best I can do on a 3ds without trying to get the computer shielding a charged smash.

So let's go with our new value and be done with it. I think there has been enough testing on that subject at least for 1.1.1 shields.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm afraid anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that shields were different prior to 1.06. It's highly more likely that Samus players didn't know about that precise way to combo Super Missile and Charge shot until the game was a few months old.

Furthermore, I already showed footage of 1.02, with Lucina charging Shieldbreaker a little less than halfway for a full shield break. Anybody that wants to argue shields were different in 1.01 (NA 3DS release) than be my guest. I just don't see the point at this rate.

By the way, that might have even broken shield with slightly less charge (at least in later patches) judging by the charging sound.

Anyway guys, here is evidence that shields WERE NEVER at 50 HP:

Just think. If Marth's Shield Breaker did 8 or 9 + 30 shield HP then how is that able to break a 50 hp shield? I believe the most a non-fully charged Shield Breaker can do is 18% (there may be a decimal in there, can the game files get the exact number?) so 18 + 30 = 48 HP!!! Still not broken on a 50 HP shield. They were broken with way less charge.

It is possible that shields had maybe 2 hp more than now, 3 MAX.

 

[jet56]

im also under the impression that shields in this patch are 40 hp. taking my character little mac, a non charged Down angled f smash combined with a side B would break a shield now, and could even do so in 1.1.0.
DFsmashnon-charged:23%
side b: 14%

so 37% with the 1.2x multiplyer would come out to about 44 HP. thats my thoughts on it anyways.

 

[Vipermoon]

im also under the impression that shields in this patch are 40 hp. taking my character little mac, a non charged Down angled f smash combined with a side B would break a shield now, and could even do so in 1.1.0.
DFsmashcharged:23%
side b: 14%

so 37% with the 1.2x multiplyer would come out to about 44 HP. thats my thoughts on it anyways.

Your down angled Fsmash obviously has added shield damage . Why do you think it has so little knockback? Just for ****s and giggles?

Edit: Wait is the D a typo? Fsmash-down fully charged does way more damage than 23%.

And we can guarantee at this point that there is no 1.2x multiplier (or whatever other number).

 

[Xygonn]

By the way, that might have even broken shield with slightly less charge (at least in later patches) judging by the charging sound.

Anyway guys, here is evidence that shields WERE NEVER at 50 HP:

Just think. If Marth's Shield Breaker did 8 or 9 + 30 shield HP then how is that able to break a 50 hp shield? I believe the most a non-fully charged Shield Breaker can do is 18% (there may be a decimal in there, can the game files get the exact number?) so 18 + 30 = 48 HP!!! Still not broken on a 50 HP shield. They were broken with way less charge.

It is possible that shields had maybe 2 hp more than now, 3 MAX.

I'm convinced this is right now. Jab1 jab2 cs shield break in 1.0.4 with very little spare shield drain time.

http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-gameplay-videos.369306/page-7#post-18790642

I must've not labbed in practice mode and let moves stale.

 

[jet56]

Your down angled Fsmash obviously has added shield damage . Why do you think it has so little knockback? Just for ****s and giggles?

Edit: Wait is the D a typo? Fsmash-down fully charged does way more damage than 23%.

And we can guarantee at this point that there is no 1.2x multiplier (or whatever other number).

oh damn i forgot about the added shield damage. and it was supposed to be non charged, not charged, that's a typo on my part. full charged DangledFsmash does 30% in training mode.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why are people still confused about shield health here?

It's been ~42 to break since the games release. The HP is lower and moves no longer do 70% damage to shields, making them very weak, durability wise.

Using Brawl as an example:

HP = 50
Damage reduction: 30%

A 20% move in Brawl would do 14 HP from a shield leaving 36 HP left.

Smash 4:

HP = 42
Damage reduction: 0%

A 20% move in Smash 4 would do 20 HP from a shield leaving 22 HP left.

Likely this is done because many moves do significantly less damage in Smash 4 (imagine if Snake's Ftilt was in Smash 4.........)

 

[Vipermoon]

Why are people still confused about shield health here?

It's been ~42 to break since the games release. The HP is lower and moves no longer do 70% damage to shields, making them very weak, durability wise.

Using Brawl as an example:

HP = 50
Damage reduction: 30%

A 20% move in Brawl would do 14 HP from a shield leaving 36 HP left.

Smash 4:

HP = 42
Damage reduction: 0%

A 20% move in Smash 4 would do 20 HP from a shield leaving 22 HP left.

Likely this is done because many moves do significantly less damage in Smash 4 (imagine if Snake's Ftilt was in Smash 4.........)

I thought 42 was a pretty accurate number. I knew it wasn't 41. But where did you get that number? Your own testing?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Like I said in the last thread, Bowser Bomb does 20% for the fall hit, and 11% for the landing hit (31%) and has 10 bonus shield damage and it won't break a full shield from like, frame 4, but it will break a few frames after (thinking like, 10 frames leeway? I'm just guessing here.)

Assuming shield damage is 1:1 with % damage, then that's 41 HP.

It's probably a number between 41 and 42 actually.

 

[Kofu]

To make sure I've got the right idea here on calculating frame advantage, I want to check an example from my main.

Game & Watch's FAir does 6% fresh on the late hit. Let's say I hit a shield on frame 4. 6 divided by 1.75 and floored is 3, and adding the extra two from the formula gives it total shieldstun of 5 frames. I'm stuck in hitlag for that duration as well. After this is over, they still have 2 more frames of shield lock and then the 7 frames to drop their shield, making it 9 frames in total. Assuming I land immediately after hitting their shield, I incur 15 frames of landing lag, making the move -6 on shield. Is this right? (Ignoring hitlag, it would be approximately -3 prior to the change if my math is correct).

Sound kinda bad for us tbh, but either way I'd like confirmation that I'm doing the calculations right... or not, so I can know how to make it work.

 

[jet56]

Why are people still confused about shield health here?

It's been ~42 to break since the games release. The HP is lower and moves no longer do 70% damage to shields, making them very weak, durability wise.

Using Brawl as an example:

HP = 50
Damage reduction: 30%

A 20% move in Brawl would do 14 HP from a shield leaving 36 HP left.

Smash 4:

HP = 42
Damage reduction: 0%

A 20% move in Smash 4 would do 20 HP from a shield leaving 22 HP left.

Likely this is done because many moves do significantly less damage in Smash 4 (imagine if Snake's Ftilt was in Smash 4.........)

i feel like we should put this in the op. the problem is that the main wiki page for smash regarding shields says it is 50 hp, which is a large misconception that is being spread around in the community. is there also a list of moves with shield damage multipliers, like macs DownFsmash, marths shield breaker, etc.?

 

[Kofu]

i feel like we should put this in the op. the problem is that the main wiki page for smash regarding shields says it is 50 hp, which is a large misconception that is being spread around in the community. is there also a list of moves with shield damage multipliers, like macs DownFsmash, marths shield breaker, etc.?

There are actually a lot of attacks with very small shield damage additions (Game & Watch's dash attack, for example). Major bonus shield damage (probably +5 or more) would likely be the only ones worth listing.

 

[jet56]

There are actually a lot of attacks with very small shield damage additions (Game & Watch's dash attack, for example). Major bonus shield damage (probably +5 or more) would likely be the only ones worth listing.

agreed, i feel like if there isn't a list, we should make one, since i feel this is still relevant to the shield discussion, and affects shield pressure, damage on shield, and shield break combos and strings. it would also be good to know for people looking to avoid a potential shield break.

 

[inconspikuous]

just for clarification, am i correct in saying that the new shieldstun mechanics diminish the usefulness of oos offensive options like jc upsmash and jc upB? (because the shieldlock and shieldstun frames now overlap so there is less of a 'useful window' to bypass shieldlock frames). or if i'm wrong, are oos offensive options like jc upsmash and jc upB more useful now because shield dropping takes too long to effectively punish post shieldstun?

 

[Xygonn]

just for clarification, am i correct in saying that the new shieldstun mechanics diminish the usefulness of oos offensive options like jc upsmash and jc upB? (because the shieldlock and shieldstun frames now overlap so there is less of a 'useful window' to bypass shieldlock frames). or if i'm wrong, are oos offensive options like jc upsmash and jc upB more useful now because shield dropping takes too long to effectively punish post shieldstun?

All OoS options are now a little worse.

 

[JohnnyB]

just for clarification, am i correct in saying that the new shieldstun mechanics diminish the usefulness of oos offensive options like jc upsmash and jc upB? (because the shieldlock and shieldstun frames now overlap so there is less of a 'useful window' to bypass shieldlock frames). or if i'm wrong, are oos offensive options like jc upsmash and jc upB more useful now because shield dropping takes too long to effectively punish post shieldstun?

Oos options haven't changed at all really, it's just that other options are more viable then they were before. They are only "worse" in reletavistic terms.

Or am i missing something?

 

[inconspikuous]

Oos options haven't changed at all really, it's just that other options are more viable then they were before. They are only "worse" in reletavistic terms.

Or am i missing something?

i think you're missing something. before this patch, because shieldstun and shieldlock frames did not overlap, you would potentially still have shieldlock frames after shieldstun (from a shielded hit) wore off. during the shieldlock frames, though, you would be able to cancel into oos options, bypassing the 'rest' of your shieldlock frames as well as your 7 shield drop frames. now, because they overlap, you're basically only bypassing your 7 shield drop frames, so every oos option is a few frames worse than pre-patch, generally.

 

[JohnnyB]

i think you're missing something. before this patch, because shieldstun and shieldlock frames did not overlap, you would potentially still have shieldlock frames after shieldstun (from a shielded hit) wore off. during the shieldlock frames, though, you would be able to cancel into oos options, bypassing the 'rest' of your shieldlock frames as well as your 7 shield drop frames. now, because they overlap, you're basically only bypassing your 7 shield drop frames, so every oos option is a few frames worse than pre-patch, generally.

That's what i ment by reletavistic terms though. Other options are better (because shieldlock and shieldstun overlap), but oos options didn't actually change. They just aren't quite as much better as other options now by a tiny bit.

But really this only used to effect frames 5-12 of your shield with diminishing effects as you reached frame 12. I still think oos options (j canceling especially), are still really good because they bypass shield drop even if they no longer matter in regards to shieldstun + sheldlock.

I think the most significant as change in regards to shieldstun/lock, is that you are no longer penalized for just barely missing a perfect shield. In the last patch getting your shield hit on f5 wound cost you an extra 8 frames before you could drop shield than getting hit on f12+.

But that's just how i see things unless I'm wrong about something.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

And because shieldlock frames do overlap with shieldstun, Non-OoS options (anything that requires you to put down your shield) are inversely more viable, as they're only 7 frames later to perform when punishing a blocked move, rather than potentially as high a number as 15 or so. Increased shieldstun will make moves safer, but I think we can expect harder punishes than shieldgrab and Usmash for many characters.

However, I was under the impression that shieldlock frames cut off immediately once you blocked a hit. In other words, they only mattered if you shielded while the opponent wasn't attacking. I heard shieldlock was still under effect prior to this patch, but never saw any hard evidence myself. It seems like people were back and forth on this issue until now.

 

[inconspikuous]

And because shieldlock frames do overlap with shieldstun, Non-OoS options (anything that requires you to put down your shield) are inversely more viable, as they're only 7 frames later to perform when punishing a blocked move, rather than potentially as high a number as 15 or so. Increased shieldstun will make moves safer, but I think we can expect harder punishes than shieldgrab and Usmash for many characters.

However, I was under the impression that shieldlock frames cut off immediately once you blocked a hit. In other words, they only mattered if you shielded while the opponent wasn't attacking. I heard shieldlock was still under effect prior to this patch, but never saw any hard evidence myself. It seems like people were back and forth on this issue until now.

yeah i remember that discussion. went something like... it was better not to hit the opponent's shield, so tomahawking and empty hops to grab were really effective or something. i don't know.

but anyway, to sum it up as of this patch then, oos options generally only bypass shield drop frames, and options after shield drop are a little more viable?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

yeah i remember that discussion. went something like... it was better not to hit the opponent's shield, so tomahawking and empty hops to grab were really effective or something. i don't know.

but anyway, to sum it up as of this patch then, oos options generally only bypass shield drop frames, and options after shield drop are a little more viable?

That's my take away. I hear a lot of players are afraid to even attempt punishes now. But a game where more than one character is safe on shield sounds mighty interesting. Keep an eye on the whole roster and see what new styles turn up.

 

[Trifroze]

Is it known why some projectiles still deal massive amounts of shield hit lag while others deal none? For instance, Villager's fsmash and charge projectiles still seem to cause considerable shield hit lag (not to confuse with shield stun) while most low damage projectiles don't.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is it known why some projectiles still deal massive amounts of shield hit lag while others deal none? For instance, Villager's fsmash and charge projectiles still seem to cause considerable shield hit lag (not to confuse with shield stun) while most low damage projectiles don't.

Because the more damage a move does, the more shieldlag will occur.