Sheik Video & Video Critique Thread

[sheikamaru]

and isn't there a sheik in japan that's like top tier? what's his name i wanna check out more vids lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Earth is his name, he uses Sheik and Pit, although Daiki has a really good set against Olimar as well iirc.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

hey guys for the record i was looking up vids on sheik vs oli and.. there's a mistake on tutu vs oli. he plays as wolf not sheik in the second match. that should be fixed

wth

The vids from my first tourny where I lost to coco in pools? O lawd.

 

[sheikamaru]

thanks!! i'll keep em in mind :D

 

[phi1ny3]

@<3 I think I'm going to love vanish if I read spotdodge, but at the same time, I think it's punishable by DACUS if you decide to retreat back with it, which is lame because Snake seems to hit sheik hard with an aerial no matter what if she gets popped up by DACUS lol. I'll keep in mind pivot grab, I think I wasn't doing those often enough against the one snake I was playing. I wish I could true pivot more consistently so that I could dash -> jab, that'd be tight XD

@kilik: look up Daiki or Earth v. Brood/Nietono, those are pretty good.

Oh yeah, Cross is another good sheik from Japan, although I don't see a lot of videos of him

 

[-Mars-]

If you get popped up by Snakes DACUS, just mash a and you'll nair the mortar.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's not the mortar per se, but the that a lot of snakes throw out random bair/uair/nair and it seems harder for sheik as opposed to Marth or Lucario (who I used to use against snake) to get away from, it's like "lol, shouldn't snake's air game be non-existent?", when in reality, they realize that it's harder to punish those reads with those aerials as sheik, than to do it with utilt when sheik's on the ground too (like if you watch matches of Earth v. Shu, it works way better than it should, and it's ridiculous when it happens).

Maybe I'm just bad, but it's really frightening to see Snake SH when you're getting close to the ground knowing his aerials can kill you at like 90% or put some real hurt.

 

[clowsui]

lol snake bair stuffs everything sheik has, judo has been saying that for a while now. it's especially gay when snake lands with it

 

[Juushichi]

It really is. A snake landing with bair is the dumbest thing ever. I'm bad though, so I can't seem to punish it with any thing. Maybe I'll just throw needles from midrange as he lands more.

Idk. ****ing snake man.

 

[Zankoku]

Snake landing with bair is unpunishable? That's news to me.

 

[Judo777]

Snake landing with bair is unpunishable? That's news to me.

No its SUUUUPPPPERRR punishable. But its quite the annoying mixup. Especially when sheik loses trades against snake HHHHAAAAARRRRRDDDD.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea how on earth are you guys having trouble with Snake landing with bair?

A lot of characters can land with aerials to mix it up and Snake's bair does not kill Sheik at 90%, so simply shield the move and go about your business.

 

[<π]

snakes air game is terrible! his air versus air is really bad. he iesn't fast enough (his moves) for you to really worry about most of the time you can hit him as he comes into range. or just air dodge past him. his aerial move speed is so slow he can't really follow you and punish the air dodge in most cases.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, I'm a little confused here. A huge majority of the damage I've taken from Snake involved him being on the ground. I don't remember ever being scared of him when he's in the air.

 

[clowsui]

trying to airchase snake is a *****. you can't actually try to hit him with moves because if he just does random bair you get fked up and even if he doesn't bair you just...trade with grenade. sure he's above you but he can take 23094831290481 more damage than you >__> snake on the ground is a little worse imo

it doesn't help that if he lands with a nade he gets a 0 frame landing if he does it correctly

the problem is if you don't PS bair then it's annoying for sheik to try and punish not to mention snake has a lot of different timing + move options that each beat certain option coverage scenarios...TKD's blog on defense expresses what i'm trying to say in a much clearer way

 

[phi1ny3]

No its SUUUUPPPPERRR punishable. But its quite the annoying mixup. Especially when sheik loses trades against snake HHHHAAAAARRRRRDDDD.

This. It's just annoying that when you're coming up for a juggle it seems harder than it should be, lack of disjoints ftl.

I think my favorite punish though is when I read a falling air dodge out of a throw like dthrow or uthrow, and reply with a charged usmash where all the hits connect, it stings and for some odd reason works well on snake.

But yeah, it's scary when you have to trade with random bair It's not super unpunishable, but it's something that seems to make it a little more difficult than normal to juggle snake.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

I have an easy time juggling snake without blowing up grenades, I guess having no disjoints has its benefits sometimes. But more importantly... I just wait for snake to do whatever he wants to do then punish it accordingly, like if he b-reverses a nade i just throw needles at his landing spot, if he tries to land with bair i just shield it and punish.

Chasing snake can be risky cause of the risk of random bair stuffing out anything we do... but I don;t see the need to chase him when we can just wait for him to land, or bait a reaction with an empty hop

 

[-Mars-]

It's actually fairly easy to hit snake with uair and not blow up the grenade. I do it with fair a lot of the time as well.

 

[<π]

just aim for his feet if he has a granade or skim his front. the granade's hit box is only as big as the granade. if he pulls a nade and is too far to punish with an aerial or he pivioted away or something you get free damage with needles EVERYTIME. and you may also detonate the nade with your needles for extra damage.
nade landings are also free grabs all he can do is throw the granade before landing an option that can't stop the grab. bthrow or uthrow to get him back in the air and get free damage.

at Bair beating everything... what? if you are below snake he has nothing that can realistically beat uair and bair(spaced, remember the initial hitbox is a little disjointed above and behind the foot) just learn your spacing witht those moves. snake has one of the worst air games out there. if Gdorf had a cypher his would be better than snakes.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Snakes Bair has a larger disjoint than ours I believe.

 

[<π]

maybe behind him... maybe, but not below or in front.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Idk about below I've eaten a lot of bairs trying to out disjoint it <______<

 

[<π]

utilt beats all of snakes aerials, but always trades with nade.

 

[Judo777]

actually i'm pretty sure snake bair beat ALL of our aerials from any side because the hitbox is uniform. ANd that the biggest issue IMO yea we can avoid the whole situation by needling his landing, but once we do that we lose our entire juggle oppertunity in exchange for like 25% max. And juggling Snake isn;t hard don't get me wrong its just not as easy as say Marth where Marth literally has 2 or 3 options for EVERY thing Snake does in the air and some of them overlap as opposed to us where our only option for bair is to wait for it to end.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, it's probably more of a matter of me doing it wrong, but Snake seems like he has some deceptively good options for Sheik's juggling, and it's all because of the dumb reward to risk ratio associated with how light we are v. how long living he is.

 

[Edu.]

this is a recent friendly match from CuP-I (random regional tournament here in spain)

sheik vs mk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQdrlv1ITmI&feature=player_embedded

 

[<π]

Nice Edu

I'd say watch and react a little more you were getting punished with tornado for guessing with your needles. and that could of been avoided way more.

Loved the use of chain as a poking tool. I've talked about it but... I don't really do it I think it works really well espeailly in the MK match up since realistically he just out ranges and out priorities you with everything if you both act at the same time.

I love watching you play. post more!

 

[Edu.]

thanks

another friendly match: Sheik vs Fox (without tilt lock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVrf_TlR6I4&feature=player_embedded

and this is an old pool set
Sheik vs bowser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckn6xPCnxIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W851Gh9u6_I

i dont have more videos because i destroyed my old youtube channel but i will upload new matches soon

 

[Dnyce]

actually i'm pretty sure snake bair beat ALL of our aerials from any side because the hitbox is uniform. ANd that the biggest issue IMO yea we can avoid the whole situation by needling his landing, but once we do that we lose our entire juggle oppertunity in exchange for like 25% max. And juggling Snake isn;t hard don't get me wrong its just not as easy as say Marth where Marth literally has 2 or 3 options for EVERY thing Snake does in the air and some of them overlap as opposed to us where our only option for bair is to wait for it to end.

Are you sure? I was playing a couple Snakes last night and Uair railed all of his aerials as far as I could tell, though I don't remember if I tried beating their bair specifically.

@Ed - was able to try out some of the things you did in those vids last night, saw a lot of improvement haven't had a chance to watch other Sheik vids yet, but I liked the double jump spacing/usage in particular.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah what really sucks is a lack of any move that'll solidly work against snake nair when you're coming back from offstage trying to land. the only thing you've got is needles, and those are only useful if they are being dumb and telegraphing it/using it too early. I'm thinking that maybe aerial chain might be a nice alternative, since snake is one of the few characters I can see that working against as an option in the air? I'm just speculating, but I think if you could use a chain lash to cancel a nair or even possibly a bair, sheik might have less to deal with in terms of getting juggled by snake. The only problem is the massive end lag, so you'd probably have to do it pretty high in the air to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8b5pv1ZAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvJyw5qki8&feature=related

Here's a good example video of Snake's aerials and why they make this MU a bit harder for sheik than it should be. Uair I think will beat them, but it's just dumb how much you need to space for them, and how hard it is to do more than just that when they can easily FF AD your uair, and yet other characters don't seem to have as big of a problem with this as Sheik.

I've been thinking of doing what MKs do and use a lagless SH uair right near the ground to stop their aerial preemptively and forcing their AD if they haven't, then dsmashing/grabbing.

Also what's stupid is if you don't have port priority and how grenades will blow up when you fthrow snake for some odd reason (unless the grenade's too far away), but bthrow and dthrow won't.

Also, does Snake's grenade pull truly stop him from getting ftilt locked, or is it possible to beat that option by buffering ftilts? It seems pretty guaranteed, I see even good sheiks get blown up for getting greedy about it.

 

[Dnyce]

Oh yeah what really sucks is a lack of any move that'll solidly work against snake nair when you're coming back from offstage trying to land. the only thing you've got is needles, and those are only useful if they are being dumb and telegraphing it/using it too early. I'm thinking that maybe aerial chain might be a nice alternative, since snake is one of the few characters I can see that working against as an option in the air? I'm just speculating, but I think if you could use a chain lash to cancel a nair or even possibly a bair, sheik might have less to deal with in terms of getting juggled by snake. The only problem is the massive end lag, so you'd probably have to do it pretty high in the air to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8b5pv1ZAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvJyw5qki8&feature=related

Here's a good example video of Snake's aerials and why they make this MU a bit harder for sheik than it should be. Uair I think will beat them, but it's just dumb how much you need to space for them, and how hard it is to do more than just that when they can easily FF AD your uair, and yet other characters don't seem to have as big of a problem with this as Sheik.

I've been thinking of doing what MKs do and use a lagless SH uair right near the ground to stop their aerial preemptively and forcing their AD if they haven't, then dsmashing/grabbing.

Also what's stupid is if you don't have port priority and how grenades will blow up when you fthrow snake for some odd reason (unless the grenade's too far away), but bthrow and dthrow won't.

Also, does Snake's grenade pull truly stop him from getting ftilt locked, or is it possible to beat that option by buffering ftilts? It seems pretty guaranteed, I see even good sheiks get blown up for getting greedy about it.

I know for sure uair beats his nair, but I don't know about using uair to recover, lol - hadn't even thought of that. What's wrong with just using DI if he catches you in nair? You're in the lab, you should know DI shenanigans

I'll watch the videos when I get home - I'm on a bus right now. Snakes grenades can detonate on frame 1, so... I would have to test to see how long ftilt works on him. I was thinking about actually testing ftilt to see at what percent each character starts to be able DI it, but I wouldn't be able to get to it until the weekend.

 

[phi1ny3]

it's somewhat hard to DI out if they're using it to catch your AD, I'd rather have something that could at least trade.

I thought grenade's pull was frame 1, and the explosion doesn't start until later.

All I know is that things like DK upB, Wario sideB, and the more obvious ones seem to get out of it, but this hasn't been tested enough to really tell if buffering would solve it.

I have made it a habit of using dsmash or grab as a finisher against snake, so that grenades don't blow up on me (utilt seems to not work so well sadly).

 

[sheikamaru]

how do you sdi out of snakes nair again?

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

double jump vanish

 

[sheikamaru]

Is that ferrreal? you should post a video of yourself escaping punish free lol

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

I -have- vanished at snakes nair and it -has- worked, you just have to position yourself to explode where snake is gonna fall. You have better options though.

Also that doesn't apply if you're already getting hit by nair

 

[sheikamaru]

I thought one could nair out of it...that move kills

 

[Dnyce]

it's somewhat hard to DI out if they're using it to catch your AD, I'd rather have something that could at least trade.

I thought grenade's pull was frame 1, and the explosion doesn't start until later.

So the obvious solution would be to catch up with 2009 metagame and learn aerial dodging into people is bad, lol. Also, I thought it went without saying, but SDI'ing his nair gives you a free hit. If you're recovering on stage I assume you would want to bair... since it's coded to always hit backward that'd put Snake off stage.

I remember having an argument with lux on whether or not snakes grenade pull was on 1 or 2. He promptly loaded the frame-advance code and demonstrated ICs jab hits Snake on 4 and then did it again except with Snake pulling a grenade on 4. It exploded. Maybe there's a difference between aerial nade pull and grounded nade pull in terms of explosion? It wouldn't make sense, but it might be good to double check, lol.

how do you sdi out of snakes nair again?

Unless he's retreating nair you want to hold the control stick into him and tap up on the c-stick. You should get out instantly. If he's retreating, obviously hold away with the control stick and tap up on the c-stick.

double jump vanish

!!!!!!!!

I distinctly remember thinking this when he posted! But I've only been playing for 2 weeks, so I haven't had a chance to try it out... and I didn't want to post theory craft lol.

I thought one could nair out of it...that move kills

I've seen MK uair out of Snake's nair, but not often. Both moves come out on frame 3, but I don't see MK uairing out of Snake's often, so I assume it's not easy. It's plausible, but I can't say for sure or not =/

 

[sheikamaru]

Excuse me not nair but smash di out of snakes neutral air

 

[Judo777]

No guys our tilt lock is guaranteed on everyone for about 2 or 3 hits. They never leave hitstun so it doesn't matter how fast their options are.