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Sheik Video & Video Critique Thread
- Thread starter -Cross-
- Start date
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
Just do what I do and ***** out the recording station ;o
sheikamaru
jive
i'm always gonna upload vids when i go to tourneys... gonna upload so many that when someone types sheik in the search bar kilik comes up :X
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
friendlies with Will (arguably best DK in the US)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1VmY94527Q&feature=channel_video_title
my sheik was meh that day but i don't ever have any vids up so here ya go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1VmY94527Q&feature=channel_video_title
my sheik was meh that day but i don't ever have any vids up so here ya go
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Good to see you get over your camera-shyness, NEO.
I've heard good things about your sheik :D
I've heard good things about your sheik :D
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
i personally think it's a top level sheik when it's actually ON, but my execution was overall bad at xanadu and all of my character's suffered. it was really depressing, i'm working on it this week
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
Hey! NEO vids! I watch them and I know you can be a lot smoother than this, but with that said, still very efficient gameplay! How bout bringing her to some tourneys?
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Yeah I noticed after watching, btw I know it's friendlies, but you took some nicks doing that vanish gliding 
I liked your use of nair, it seems pretty hard to punish when used that way, I need to get consistent myself in landing with nair that way so I don't have any landing lag at the end.
I'm jealous, you're able to make her moveset just flow like it's no big deal, I have to pretty much get a grab to get anything going
I liked your use of nair, it seems pretty hard to punish when used that way, I need to get consistent myself in landing with nair that way so I don't have any landing lag at the end.
I'm jealous, you're able to make her moveset just flow like it's no big deal, I have to pretty much get a grab to get anything going
sheikamaru
jive
first thing i wanna say i love how you have the vanish glide down on spot. that's sexy. i can't do that fluently lol if anything don't nair so early in your tilt combos, i'd save those for later for killings :D you're welcome to finish off w/ an uptilt andif you check does the same amount of damage as a dsmash so either or is your safe bet... when dk does down b sheild it completely b/c it'll just push you away out of it's range after like 2 pounds. sheik ***** dk imo but good match though. and abuse your needles more when dk is off stage. what i like to do is hit him with a single needle from the air then challenge his up w/ my fair. chk this vid out :D it's not will but it's dk :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khYE0ybNc6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khYE0ybNc6E
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Good spacing too, your aerials in general look hard to punish.
AA -> dtilt seems deceptively hard to punish o_O I always get punished when I try it though, so it might just be me
I liked your recovering mixups, like faking to bair with the b-reverse needles.
I think ironically the parts you got punished the most was when you ftilted. I like using dsmash because it takes away most of what they could do to try getting you for when you would normally aerial, and it lols at air dodges and pretty much any option they would try landing near you, it has a strangely good hitbox vertically, and covers a lot of options/ground (utilt works well too, but it doesn't seem to have reach for that kind of DI Will was using). I noticed that you also don't use dsmash for kills in your playstyle, so you probably won't mind using it to finish after ftilt (plus it sends them far away, which is a good time to charge needles since it resets to neutral) and does a lot of damage (whether you hit them with the strong first hit or the double hit sometimes, it does good damage either way)
dthrow seemed okay for now, but I've noticed how ineffective its been from my experiences it's worked outside of when I use nair or needles afterwards. with fthrow/bthrow, a good way to get a string built on that even when they DI the throw far away is to dash -> rar bair. I saw Earth do it a lot, and it still does work :D
Good match, I frankly learned a lot more about what I can do for my sheik.
AA -> dtilt seems deceptively hard to punish o_O I always get punished when I try it though, so it might just be me
I liked your recovering mixups, like faking to bair with the b-reverse needles.
I think ironically the parts you got punished the most was when you ftilted. I like using dsmash because it takes away most of what they could do to try getting you for when you would normally aerial, and it lols at air dodges and pretty much any option they would try landing near you, it has a strangely good hitbox vertically, and covers a lot of options/ground (utilt works well too, but it doesn't seem to have reach for that kind of DI Will was using). I noticed that you also don't use dsmash for kills in your playstyle, so you probably won't mind using it to finish after ftilt (plus it sends them far away, which is a good time to charge needles since it resets to neutral) and does a lot of damage (whether you hit them with the strong first hit or the double hit sometimes, it does good damage either way)
dthrow seemed okay for now, but I've noticed how ineffective its been from my experiences it's worked outside of when I use nair or needles afterwards. with fthrow/bthrow, a good way to get a string built on that even when they DI the throw far away is to dash -> rar bair. I saw Earth do it a lot, and it still does work :D
Good match, I frankly learned a lot more about what I can do for my sheik.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
hehe, I would ask Ed, he beat Sei-to-the-brik's (antinamesearch) MK with Zelda XD
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
This could be fun to try. I'll do what I can but I'll be typing via my iPhone since my laptop is toast atm. What will ya wanna know for Zelda?
sheikamaru
jive
i keep tellin these gentlemen to upload vids... i wanna see an mk getting owned by zelda lol
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
He has one on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdTfv9OKu8Y
it's friendlies, but still...
It's Zelda lol
@NEO: Basic Zelda ground game is dtilt/jab stuff (and usmash of course), dtilt has like a ton of advantage when your opponent isn't really low on percent and allows dtilt lock -> dsmash at mid-> high percents. Nair has some cool hitboxes, one of them pops the opponent up directly over your head, great for utilt/usmash setups. Zelda's dash attack is fairly good too, it pops them up vertically, so you get some opportunity to get some kills (there's also a hitbox that sends them in front of you, so you can sometimes link some moves from there at low percents). Zelda dthrow is great if the opponent doesn't DI away, it almost always links with usmash if they don't, and you can sometimes get a lightning kick off. Sweetspot bair oos is fantastic if you get the spacing down consistently.
Din's fire is hard to use on a good opponent, but doing things like crossing up on their shield with it has some good mindgame potential (Edu's Zelda does this in matches to make din's a bit more unpredictable, like in this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri32AkYEMtM&feature=related). Also use it for when they try to momentum cancel with a laggy aerial.
Zelda's naryu (neutral B) has some invincibility frames, and will always send the opponent towards the direction you're facing, keep that in mind if you b-reverse it so that you can pop them off in a different direction.
Zelda's standing grab is garbage if you're planning to shieldgrab an aerial, it's really slow. Her dash grab and pivot grab are okay though.
ftilt is somewhat hard to punish when spaced, and at really high percents can kill if fresh. I mention this because even though I don't usually kill with this when I'm solo Zelda, with Sheik I tend to take the opponent to some pretty high percents, so it's nice having a killing poke that you can't SDI out of.
teleport trixies are cool, especially the ledge canceled ones
Aside from that, I don't really know a whole lot on Zelda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdTfv9OKu8Y
it's friendlies, but still...
It's Zelda lol
@NEO: Basic Zelda ground game is dtilt/jab stuff (and usmash of course), dtilt has like a ton of advantage when your opponent isn't really low on percent and allows dtilt lock -> dsmash at mid-> high percents. Nair has some cool hitboxes, one of them pops the opponent up directly over your head, great for utilt/usmash setups. Zelda's dash attack is fairly good too, it pops them up vertically, so you get some opportunity to get some kills (there's also a hitbox that sends them in front of you, so you can sometimes link some moves from there at low percents). Zelda dthrow is great if the opponent doesn't DI away, it almost always links with usmash if they don't, and you can sometimes get a lightning kick off. Sweetspot bair oos is fantastic if you get the spacing down consistently.
Din's fire is hard to use on a good opponent, but doing things like crossing up on their shield with it has some good mindgame potential (Edu's Zelda does this in matches to make din's a bit more unpredictable, like in this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri32AkYEMtM&feature=related). Also use it for when they try to momentum cancel with a laggy aerial.
Zelda's naryu (neutral B) has some invincibility frames, and will always send the opponent towards the direction you're facing, keep that in mind if you b-reverse it so that you can pop them off in a different direction.
Zelda's standing grab is garbage if you're planning to shieldgrab an aerial, it's really slow. Her dash grab and pivot grab are okay though.
ftilt is somewhat hard to punish when spaced, and at really high percents can kill if fresh. I mention this because even though I don't usually kill with this when I'm solo Zelda, with Sheik I tend to take the opponent to some pretty high percents, so it's nice having a killing poke that you can't SDI out of.
teleport trixies are cool, especially the ledge canceled ones
Aside from that, I don't really know a whole lot on Zelda
sheikamaru
jive
you just taught me more about zelda phil, thank you
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
That's pretty much what you need to know as Zelda.
What I'd add on to that is to be ready for people to SDI smash attacks because you can still punish them.
Also, practice recovery angles with Zelda because there are some close to impossible angles for her. If you watch the vid with Seibrik, towards the end, I should have died because of the angle but I got lucky lol.
Yea, Zelda's grab is bad but it does have some awesome range so if you can adjust to the grab, it isn't that bad.
About Ftilt, if you time it and angle it, you can beat almost every aerial in the game, including Marth's and Lucario's Fair. It's that good but the timing gets tough.
Usmash is awesome at the ledge. Pushes your opponent off stage so it always hits.
Feel free to throw more questions if you want some Zelda knowledge.
What I'd add on to that is to be ready for people to SDI smash attacks because you can still punish them.
Also, practice recovery angles with Zelda because there are some close to impossible angles for her. If you watch the vid with Seibrik, towards the end, I should have died because of the angle but I got lucky lol.
Yea, Zelda's grab is bad but it does have some awesome range so if you can adjust to the grab, it isn't that bad.
About Ftilt, if you time it and angle it, you can beat almost every aerial in the game, including Marth's and Lucario's Fair. It's that good but the timing gets tough.
Usmash is awesome at the ledge. Pushes your opponent off stage so it always hits.
Feel free to throw more questions if you want some Zelda knowledge.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Wow, that's pretty cool about ftilt, didn't think about it being a anti-air swatter, I always thought it's range was too small for that. That's good to know.
I wish Zelda's upB could scar like wolf's sideB, that'd make her recovering much easier imo.
I wish Zelda's upB could scar like wolf's sideB, that'd make her recovering much easier imo.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
His Sheik plays like his Marth.
And on that note, none of you suggested u-smash OoS to him. Why I don't know. There were more than several occasions he chose n-air instead. Probably because he's not used to u-smash as an option... because his Marth doesn't use it.
A bunch of technical errors were here (roll instead of pivot grab, u-tilt instead of u-air, f-air instead of invincible b-air from ledge, fail foxtrots.) It was humorous to watch since I know it frustrates him.
His playstyle is the safest I've seen as far as spacing goes (again, a Marth attribute.) It's not as if he doesn't know the DK MU, it's just he's not familiar enough with ALL of Sheik's options. But as everyone saw (damage ouput-wise) the playstyle was effective.
He doesn't use all of Sheik's moveset. He loves d-tilt, but doesn't use u-smash OoS (stated earlier), u-tilt or d-smash to the degree that could have changed the match entirely if he did (because he would have prevented damage/killed earlier.) Someone already noted u-tilt as an alternative f-tilt follow-up and d-smash as an alternative air dodge read. Especially against Will (the player, not the character) who often fast-fell his air dodge. That's pretty much it.
To the rest of you: As far as d-throw usage... I would argue d-throw having as equal usefulness as her f/b throws. The idea that it can be DI'd is moot since her other two throws can be DI'd as well. High knockback isn't much of an issue since you have the ground speed to still cover options. If anything, it can give you greater positioning out of the three if they're all DI'd. D-throw being looked down upon by Sheik mains is a strange phenomenon I don't understand.
And on that note, none of you suggested u-smash OoS to him. Why I don't know. There were more than several occasions he chose n-air instead. Probably because he's not used to u-smash as an option... because his Marth doesn't use it.
A bunch of technical errors were here (roll instead of pivot grab, u-tilt instead of u-air, f-air instead of invincible b-air from ledge, fail foxtrots.) It was humorous to watch since I know it frustrates him.
His playstyle is the safest I've seen as far as spacing goes (again, a Marth attribute.) It's not as if he doesn't know the DK MU, it's just he's not familiar enough with ALL of Sheik's options. But as everyone saw (damage ouput-wise) the playstyle was effective.
He doesn't use all of Sheik's moveset. He loves d-tilt, but doesn't use u-smash OoS (stated earlier), u-tilt or d-smash to the degree that could have changed the match entirely if he did (because he would have prevented damage/killed earlier.) Someone already noted u-tilt as an alternative f-tilt follow-up and d-smash as an alternative air dodge read. Especially against Will (the player, not the character) who often fast-fell his air dodge. That's pretty much it.
To the rest of you: As far as d-throw usage... I would argue d-throw having as equal usefulness as her f/b throws. The idea that it can be DI'd is moot since her other two throws can be DI'd as well. High knockback isn't much of an issue since you have the ground speed to still cover options. If anything, it can give you greater positioning out of the three if they're all DI'd. D-throw being looked down upon by Sheik mains is a strange phenomenon I don't understand.
Dthrows high knockback makes the hardest of the throws to DI. fthrow has very low knock back and has a low cool down which forces opponents into air dodge or get hit situations. dthrow doesn't offer that same level of comfort. I've seen people bait into charged usmashes with dthrow but I just like the follow up options from fthrow and B throw beter.
usmash OOS isn't all that great. infact I can't think of anything that'd get hit by it. nair OOS is so much faster, think one of the fastest OOS options (sheild drop jab is really fast too though).
usmash OOS isn't all that great. infact I can't think of anything that'd get hit by it. nair OOS is so much faster, think one of the fastest OOS options (sheild drop jab is really fast too though).
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
You'd have to JC usmash to make it work more effectively, and it doesn't have a stupendous hitbox like Wolf or Falco's :\
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
yeah, problematic for us.
If only we had that ridiculous hitbox olimar's usmash has, that'd at least make it worth the ending lag more or less.
If only we had that ridiculous hitbox olimar's usmash has, that'd at least make it worth the ending lag more or less.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Examples 1 and 2 He can time the u-smash to punish the air dodge when he was in his shield. Later, he perfect shields the up+b but doesn't use the option.
Example 3 Again, DK is right on top. Notice that you don't have to wait for something to hit the shield to commit to u-smash. The argument that "oh, n-air didn't land so how could u-smash had" is moot because neither would have landed period with the way Neo waited for Will to touch the ground first. Case in point, the n-air was perfect shielded. You can't expect to wait and react. It has to be a read.
Example 4 He does up+b OoS instead of u-smash even though the positioning is perfect. Check out how DK's already air dodging in before Neo even commits to up+b.
Example of not OoS u-smash but not choosing u-smash as a punish
Landing lag is four frames. The first hitbox comes out on frame four and isn't hard to connect with DK's hurtbox. Furthermore, you can charge it if you need to time it better (this has its pros and cons. Charging adds another four frames, but if you charge even more than that, at least they can't perfect shield. If you do it closer to the ledge, you can always cancel it, but now that's getting into theorycraft.)
And if you were watching, DK air dodging back on stage was Will's number one way of recovery.
To make a better analogy, DK air dodges back on stage. Spacing-wise, he's practically on top of you. None of you will argue that grab OoS is a bad option. But that's six frames and you're grabbing his landing lag, not his shield. Why isn't u-smash being used? I know it's not because it's too slow, because Olimar's u-smash comes out frame 8. On that note, you guys do realize n-air comes out on frame 7/8 (I'm not quite sure. I thought MK's u-air was the only frame 2 aerial. If Sheik's n-air is frame 3, then OoS it's frame 8 because you count for jump squat.) <3, shield drop jab comes out frame 9. The act of dropping shield is 7 frames itself. Come on dude. The only time it's faster would be if you perfect shielded, and even then faster by a small amount.
Using u-smash OoS as a punish is applicable by many characters. Just because yours doesn't have the horizontal range doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. There were many missed opportunities for a kill, especially since this is the DK MU.
Is it harder to punish with Sheik's u-smashes than other character's u-smashes? Yes. But because of spacing, the size of the hitbox and the length of time the hitbox is out. Not because of speed. And quite frankly I know Neo has the precision to pull it off.
The fact that 3 apparently top level Sheik mains are telling me speed is a problem... well...
Unless I did something wrong with the frame data, and the fact that other characters are capable of doing it with slower u-smashes... you guys are missing out.
EDIT: As far as preferences for f/b throws, I encourage you to actually go back and try follow-ups to d-throw. Lower cooldown doesn't mean much since the hitstun of the throws isn't large. Nearly every character with fast d-air can trade hits with Sheik. It doesn't force an air dodge at all.
Example 3 Again, DK is right on top. Notice that you don't have to wait for something to hit the shield to commit to u-smash. The argument that "oh, n-air didn't land so how could u-smash had" is moot because neither would have landed period with the way Neo waited for Will to touch the ground first. Case in point, the n-air was perfect shielded. You can't expect to wait and react. It has to be a read.
Example 4 He does up+b OoS instead of u-smash even though the positioning is perfect. Check out how DK's already air dodging in before Neo even commits to up+b.
Example of not OoS u-smash but not choosing u-smash as a punish
Landing lag is four frames. The first hitbox comes out on frame four and isn't hard to connect with DK's hurtbox. Furthermore, you can charge it if you need to time it better (this has its pros and cons. Charging adds another four frames, but if you charge even more than that, at least they can't perfect shield. If you do it closer to the ledge, you can always cancel it, but now that's getting into theorycraft.)
And if you were watching, DK air dodging back on stage was Will's number one way of recovery.
To make a better analogy, DK air dodges back on stage. Spacing-wise, he's practically on top of you. None of you will argue that grab OoS is a bad option. But that's six frames and you're grabbing his landing lag, not his shield. Why isn't u-smash being used? I know it's not because it's too slow, because Olimar's u-smash comes out frame 8. On that note, you guys do realize n-air comes out on frame 7/8 (I'm not quite sure. I thought MK's u-air was the only frame 2 aerial. If Sheik's n-air is frame 3, then OoS it's frame 8 because you count for jump squat.) <3, shield drop jab comes out frame 9. The act of dropping shield is 7 frames itself. Come on dude. The only time it's faster would be if you perfect shielded, and even then faster by a small amount.
Using u-smash OoS as a punish is applicable by many characters. Just because yours doesn't have the horizontal range doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. There were many missed opportunities for a kill, especially since this is the DK MU.
Is it harder to punish with Sheik's u-smashes than other character's u-smashes? Yes. But because of spacing, the size of the hitbox and the length of time the hitbox is out. Not because of speed. And quite frankly I know Neo has the precision to pull it off.
The fact that 3 apparently top level Sheik mains are telling me speed is a problem... well...
Unless I did something wrong with the frame data, and the fact that other characters are capable of doing it with slower u-smashes... you guys are missing out.
EDIT: As far as preferences for f/b throws, I encourage you to actually go back and try follow-ups to d-throw. Lower cooldown doesn't mean much since the hitstun of the throws isn't large. Nearly every character with fast d-air can trade hits with Sheik. It doesn't force an air dodge at all.
I usmash out of shield at times. Smart players tend to avoid ending up directly above Sheik the moment they're aware it's an option, though.
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
I agree with NO-Idea that U-smash out of shield is underrated. It has a really crappy hitbox, and I'm pretty sure it's slower than 8 frames especially if you don;t land the tipper. So while I do believe that U-smash OoS underrated I agree with <3 that in most situations nair OoS and shield drop jab are better options. And unless people are within kill range, or are large enough/in the right position to get double hit I would refrain from using it. And as Ankoku said... it's not very likely that you'll hit a smart player more with it more than once or twice per match.
Also as to example 4, Up-B is a much safer option than U-smash, because if u whiff teh timing on u-smash, you're guaranteed to eat some real damage, while if u whiff the up-b u can just re-appear at a location where DK is unable to hit you.
As for the fast dair trade out of f-throw, the whole point of f-throw is that you wait for them to do anything, and then punish it, so using a fast dair is the same as airdodging in the fact that it leaves you're opponent open. D-throw leaves you with an additional guessing game since they can bounce in front/behind/directly whichever way positions them to use their best aerial wall. So like Kirby is going to bounce behind you so that he can bair, marth would go in front to fair, you're basically letting them choose their own position to best react to your follow up.
Also as to example 4, Up-B is a much safer option than U-smash, because if u whiff teh timing on u-smash, you're guaranteed to eat some real damage, while if u whiff the up-b u can just re-appear at a location where DK is unable to hit you.
As for the fast dair trade out of f-throw, the whole point of f-throw is that you wait for them to do anything, and then punish it, so using a fast dair is the same as airdodging in the fact that it leaves you're opponent open. D-throw leaves you with an additional guessing game since they can bounce in front/behind/directly whichever way positions them to use their best aerial wall. So like Kirby is going to bounce behind you so that he can bair, marth would go in front to fair, you're basically letting them choose their own position to best react to your follow up.
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
The point of the examples were to show scenarios where you can land the tipper and even settle for the side-hitboxes. And I'm 100% sure evidence exists in the majority of Sheik's MUs where u-smash OoS can be used.
Example 4, Neo got punished by d-smash after he used up+b. For that matter, if you replay it in slow motion (or have fast eyes) Neo is shielding right when DK starts to double jump from ledge. DK air dodges before Neo commits to up+b. Up+b was such a slow choice to respond with, but it's something Neo had been doing so often I wouldn't have thought of u-smash either during gameplay. As an observer, that's something different.
Also, the second hitbox of u-smash comes two frames after (frame 6). I can't account for the third. So yet again, to be clear, it isn't speed that's the issue. Jab OoS is frame 9. N-air is frame 8. It's the length that the hitbox is out that makes its usage difficult (the margin of error is smaller.) This comes with practice.
But I'd rather have an extremely fast punishment tool that lasts 1-2 frames than a slow punishment tool that lasts 5. The former just requires reaction and practice. The latter requires extremely hard, far into the future reads.
The scenarios exist in every MU besides MK, no matter HOW SMART the player is. Because every character in this game has to land, and there are only so many options for landing (air dodge, aerial, b-reverse special.) It's up to you to realize your best punishment option for each, especially for a character that has killing problems. And I'm telling you if you know where they are going to land during the air dodge, you can punish the landing lag with u-smash OoS. U-smash isn't just for punishing pre-emptive air dodges...
The throws come down to preference. I just find d-throw to be an overall safer throw with easier to react options than f-throw/b-throw (depending on the percent.)
Example 4, Neo got punished by d-smash after he used up+b. For that matter, if you replay it in slow motion (or have fast eyes) Neo is shielding right when DK starts to double jump from ledge. DK air dodges before Neo commits to up+b. Up+b was such a slow choice to respond with, but it's something Neo had been doing so often I wouldn't have thought of u-smash either during gameplay. As an observer, that's something different.
Also, the second hitbox of u-smash comes two frames after (frame 6). I can't account for the third. So yet again, to be clear, it isn't speed that's the issue. Jab OoS is frame 9. N-air is frame 8. It's the length that the hitbox is out that makes its usage difficult (the margin of error is smaller.) This comes with practice.
But I'd rather have an extremely fast punishment tool that lasts 1-2 frames than a slow punishment tool that lasts 5. The former just requires reaction and practice. The latter requires extremely hard, far into the future reads.
The scenarios exist in every MU besides MK, no matter HOW SMART the player is. Because every character in this game has to land, and there are only so many options for landing (air dodge, aerial, b-reverse special.) It's up to you to realize your best punishment option for each, especially for a character that has killing problems. And I'm telling you if you know where they are going to land during the air dodge, you can punish the landing lag with u-smash OoS. U-smash isn't just for punishing pre-emptive air dodges...
The throws come down to preference. I just find d-throw to be an overall safer throw with easier to react options than f-throw/b-throw (depending on the percent.)
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
Which seat will you take?
Even people that space poorly are rarely in range for usmash OOS, even the side hits. That's the problem. if sheik's usmash has speed range like zelda's it be conciderablly more viable. but it's lack of range and huge cool down, along with it's start up speed (shield drop jab is faster for example) means sheik generally have better options to handle a given situation with far less risk and often times more reward.
upB OOS isn't a great option generally it's an interesting mix up in a some situations but far from safe. upB however is a far safer chocie for punishing langing lag safely. In the example I think you are talking about example 4? NEO could have reappeared at the ledge and wouldn't have been punished at all.there are like 6 or 7 characters that can punish vanish on shield and none of them can punish with a kill.
upB OOS isn't a great option generally it's an interesting mix up in a some situations but far from safe. upB however is a far safer chocie for punishing langing lag safely. In the example I think you are talking about example 4? NEO could have reappeared at the ledge and wouldn't have been punished at all.there are like 6 or 7 characters that can punish vanish on shield and none of them can punish with a kill.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Okay, I can't get my vids uploaded onto YT because the files are corrupted or something, but I can show you my sheik from the source:
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20175152/2011_3_19_19_43_5_2_mpg#
click the "stream video now" button, and skip to about 51:00. The match in the beginning was more warm-upish than anything
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20175152/2011_3_19_19_43_5_2_mpg#
click the "stream video now" button, and skip to about 51:00. The match in the beginning was more warm-upish than anything
Digital Limit
Smash Cadet
Man, killing with sweet spotted up-special is awesome. And you did it twice. I also like your what-looked-like forward throws into needles into another grab. Lots of solid use of up-tilt, and disappointingly a bunch of flashy-but-ineffective DACs.
If you had any advice for someone just getting into Sheik, what would it be? In particular, what moves do you typically build with, which moves do you avoid staling so you can finish with, tricky ways to recover, when to charge needles, or I suppose anything else. I'm not getting into her, but a friend of mine was hoping I could dig up some tips since they loved the character in Melee.
If you had any advice for someone just getting into Sheik, what would it be? In particular, what moves do you typically build with, which moves do you avoid staling so you can finish with, tricky ways to recover, when to charge needles, or I suppose anything else. I'm not getting into her, but a friend of mine was hoping I could dig up some tips since they loved the character in Melee.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Any more people to critique? I did a lot better in terms of maneuvering and consistency from my last video.
Okay, well I can give a fairly good rundown on what you want to do with sheik, but unfortunately it's pretty extensive.
Okay, well I can give a fairly good rundown on what you want to do with sheik, but unfortunately it's pretty extensive
.Ok Phil, I see you getting better man.
Ftilt at low percentages (under 25%) probably isn't a good idea....especially against marth. I would recommend maybe using the C-stick for your SH aerials a little bit more, so you don't stay in the air as long. You7've gotta learn to punish stuff better, your Sheik so you can punish the majority of your opponents mistakes....he got away with a lot of whiffed up-b's. Honestly try to get a tipper usmash instead of hitting with an aerial when he whiffs an up-b straight up into the air like that. Your punishing landings with needles really well, good stuff. Couple of times you probably could have killed with jab>jab>nair when you caught him at high percents.....that makes KO'ing so much easier for Sheik if you can incorporate that. Hard reads with the vanish kills in game 1 lol, I love when that happens.
Game 2 I was pretty impressed with how well you were racking damage.
Keep up the good stuff man.
I'm not really good at the Marth MU so I really don't know what else to give tips on. Sorry.
Edit: Recent vid of my Sheik vs. DS4. Just a friendly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7de9UTlgoJE
.Ftilt at low percentages (under 25%) probably isn't a good idea....especially against marth. I would recommend maybe using the C-stick for your SH aerials a little bit more, so you don't stay in the air as long. You7've gotta learn to punish stuff better, your Sheik so you can punish the majority of your opponents mistakes....he got away with a lot of whiffed up-b's. Honestly try to get a tipper usmash instead of hitting with an aerial when he whiffs an up-b straight up into the air like that. Your punishing landings with needles really well, good stuff. Couple of times you probably could have killed with jab>jab>nair when you caught him at high percents.....that makes KO'ing so much easier for Sheik if you can incorporate that. Hard reads with the vanish kills in game 1 lol, I love when that happens.
Game 2 I was pretty impressed with how well you were racking damage.
Keep up the good stuff man.
I'm not really good at the Marth MU so I really don't know what else to give tips on. Sorry.
Edit: Recent vid of my Sheik vs. DS4. Just a friendly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7de9UTlgoJE
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
dude, wait until you see the next match I'm going to try to upload, I get the last kill by a really hard read vanish kill on snake cyphering at the top lol, I have no clue how it happened and I dare not try it ever again, but it was soooooo "frikkin awesome", as Pwneroni would say.
Thanks, yeah I noticed I've been neglecting my air game a bit, it actually cost me a couple of games at the last tournament I went to against snake, if I remember correctly I saw videos of you doing SH rising fairs on snake's shield, are those really as safe as they seem to be? If so, I would've abused that a little in my matches. Also, I noticed that grabs can be really rewarding but really risky for sheik, because if the opponent is expecting a dash -> shieldgrab, and spotdodges, you usually are very open for damage. Would the best solution for this be just SH -> FF fair/nair on them when you expect a spotdodge?
Thanks, yeah I noticed I've been neglecting my air game a bit, it actually cost me a couple of games at the last tournament I went to against snake, if I remember correctly I saw videos of you doing SH rising fairs on snake's shield, are those really as safe as they seem to be? If so, I would've abused that a little in my matches. Also, I noticed that grabs can be really rewarding but really risky for sheik, because if the opponent is expecting a dash -> shieldgrab, and spotdodges, you usually are very open for damage. Would the best solution for this be just SH -> FF fair/nair on them when you expect a spotdodge?
Nah fair really isn't safe against Snake, I just love the move to death and spam it for no apparent reason lmao. It does end very quickly so you can fair>jab on a lot of characters....it's not actually completely safe but you can get away with it a lot of the time.
When I expect people to spotdodge, I kinda hover around Sheiks bair range and I do backflip bairs to beat the spotdodge. there's also always the hard read shield and then just wait for them to spotdodge before you grab them...I love that.
run through and pivot grab on the last frames of their spot dodge. you want to heavily mix up your dash in options. lately I've been liking dash in upB (just out of grab range) as it counters pretty much every option and is pretty safe even if they expect it. dash in sheild is a strong option that lets you react to what they've done. and dash in short hop just out of attack range is also powerful and safe.
I go for safe options because you want to see how you opponent will react and you want to condition them so you can get those hard read later in the game.
If every time you dash in empty short hop they sheild on reaction to the dash in you can expect a safe grab later in the game. If they always spot dodge you can fix your game to work around and punish that.
spaced fair is safe on snake. he can beat it with utilt I guess. but he can beat every one of our aerials with utilt including our bair.
I go for safe options because you want to see how you opponent will react and you want to condition them so you can get those hard read later in the game.
If every time you dash in empty short hop they sheild on reaction to the dash in you can expect a safe grab later in the game. If they always spot dodge you can fix your game to work around and punish that.
spaced fair is safe on snake. he can beat it with utilt I guess. but he can beat every one of our aerials with utilt including our bair.
sheikamaru
jive
hey guys for the record i was looking up vids on sheik vs oli and.. there's a mistake on tutu vs oli. he plays as wolf not sheik in the second match. that should be fixed
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Okay, I remember someone saying they needed help with Sheik v. Diddy, and even though that was a while ago, I found a match that employed a lot of the stuff I was mentioning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeDrpFPrQxs
Daiki v. Tige, I felt Daiki should've used more grabs to mix it up since Diddy is notoriously good at punishing stuff he blocks, but he still manages to pull a clutch win at the end when I personally thought he was going to lose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeDrpFPrQxs
Daiki v. Tige, I felt Daiki should've used more grabs to mix it up since Diddy is notoriously good at punishing stuff he blocks, but he still manages to pull a clutch win at the end when I personally thought he was going to lose