Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Plus side to have a really bad dd length.
Dash -> dtilt is so much faster.
Dash -> dtilt is so much faster.
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
SaggyG
Smash Cadet
I've been playing for about a year and have had sheik as my main the entire time. I've been to multiple tournaments with varying results. I used to be very confident in myself, but right now I'm not.
At the moment I feel like I can't improve anymore. I watch recorded videos of myself but I can't find anything to actually do. It's gotten to the point where playing sheik feels hopeless and not really fun. I find a lot of fun in improvement, not being stuck behind a wall or something.
I've been thinking about playing my fox more often because I can improve with him. So I'm wondering, would it be a good idea to switch characters for a while?
At the moment I feel like I can't improve anymore. I watch recorded videos of myself but I can't find anything to actually do. It's gotten to the point where playing sheik feels hopeless and not really fun. I find a lot of fun in improvement, not being stuck behind a wall or something.
I've been thinking about playing my fox more often because I can improve with him. So I'm wondering, would it be a good idea to switch characters for a while?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
You could also post videos and ask for advice on how to improve.
I have a couple suggestions for you personally, but I'd need a video to remind me.
I have a couple suggestions for you personally, but I'd need a video to remind me.
SaggyG
Smash Cadet
Oh, sup toph. I'll probably have videos by the end of the night.
SaggyG
Smash Cadet
Okay, here are some recordings I was able to make tonight. The quality is horrible because every other program didn't want to work for me.
Upke plays a lot of characters, so this is a good way to judge my MUs and adaptability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZxFPJ3fYxQ (audio ****s up at around 7:40 for no reason)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dKYmdIF-Hg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jEMmYwr3w8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmQC1SbrTk
Any and all criticism is welcome.
Upke plays a lot of characters, so this is a good way to judge my MUs and adaptability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZxFPJ3fYxQ (audio ****s up at around 7:40 for no reason)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dKYmdIF-Hg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jEMmYwr3w8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmQC1SbrTk
Any and all criticism is welcome.
darkatma
Smash Hero
Is netplay your only viable option right now? I just can't see improving certain things with lag.
SaggyG
Smash Cadet
Pretty much. I go to local tournament every month though.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Ok, yeah it's really hard to give you advice based on these videos because it's difficult to tell whether you're making poor decisions or are just being crippled by lag. If the lag isn't noticeable, though, then you need to pick your attacks better. You keep jabbing/dtilting grounded Peach, using badly spaced aerials, and generally not coming in from angles that'll let you attack the opponent with impunity (i.e. being able to fair/bair Peach without getting hit yourself).
From what I remember from our in-person matches your neutral game vs. spacies is not too bad but you need to capitalize off of hits better and stop ending combos in dsmash at mid % for no reason.
I would actually suggest you stick with Sheik because I think your fundamentals need work and more Sheik would fix that, but if you think you see something in the space animals then by all means.
From what I remember from our in-person matches your neutral game vs. spacies is not too bad but you need to capitalize off of hits better and stop ending combos in dsmash at mid % for no reason.
I would actually suggest you stick with Sheik because I think your fundamentals need work and more Sheik would fix that, but if you think you see something in the space animals then by all means.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
@ person who is thinking about switching from Sheik 'cuz they aren't good with her and don't know anything about her #4354681:
It's actually kind of surprising to me that you don't see how to improve. But I don't think you actually know much about combat in Melee in general. Or Sheik. So, from the top...
You could open up a lot of options and make much better plays in general if you cut fewer corners and simply focused more on your footing (getting good footing more quickly and more often). I don't think you know what your goal is vs Peach at the different percentages. I don't think you get that the attacks you tech chase with have an effect on how the opponent chooses their tech option. I definitely don't think you get that you're supposed to kill the opponent when you grab them. And it's very clear you don't get that fair is a better combo finisher than d-smash after like 40% (rough estimate) because of the trajectory and better action window it provides.
So, regarding positioning, I'm gonna just come out and say I'm not sure whether certain missteps you make are as a result of lag or whether you're aware of them because the kind of optimization I'm usually referring to deals with expanding the window you have on follow-up actions. Another way to look at it is that as a Sheik player you want to know how to maintain the ability to respond to the opponent as much as possible, and especially after hitting him because this **** has the capacity to death touch basically everyone but Peach and Jigglypuff in some manner. So it's a lot of detail work, but that tends to be the nature of characters that are based more on attacks more than movement.
...I should probably explain that last bit since I think it'll be useful for some of the intermediate players reading this. As a character whose best trait is attack quality, you're working on improving how you do your attacks, which means you have to know how your attacks work VERY THOROUGHLY and where they hit ALSO VERY THOROUGHLY. Your positioning and movement therefore become biased towards creating situations where your opponent has to interact with your attacks in some manner (approach you, jump in some cases, etc) since that's the easiest way to win exchanges. For this reason, better-than-crap Sheik players tend to play kind of passively or conservatively when she's out of position, or at least relative to someone like Fox. Sheik is in this respect a more extreme character - she has positions where her attacks simply kill everything and other positions where her attacks don't really benefit her much and in those instances she has to change where she is because she can't change her moves. In contrast, Fox's attacks are basically all really close to his body and with a handful of exceptions pretty crap priority for a top character. But his positions always have some manner of aggressive and defensive actions because of how fast and fluid his movement is, which enables him to go somewhere else if threatened or attack if he thinks he can get the jump on you. And in the odd situation where he lacks a way to threaten to hit you, changing that is probably just a matter of FJ WLing somewhere. So his option pool has a nice, consistent variety to it and is basically always at least okay.
Okay, so now I have to steer this back to why improving with Sheik is so hard for some people...
To begin, I don't think the 90%+ of the player base consciously knows much if anything about the above paragraph's major subject and all the misconceptions it has bred and popularized (800 APM falco lomtardos ftw). But I do suspect these kinds of conventions are picked up subconsciously by most players in some capacity. And I am beginning to think that when success with a character requires the player to structure combat so it follows a superficially rigid conventions, it really bothers most players (and I have theories on that too but they're mean so they're best left off the boards). In general, I think people like the freedom of the spacies because they can attack in so many positions effectively relative to other characters. And their large option suite coupled with transitions off the shine give them a flexibility. Often people improve their Fox by learning a new technique to compliment the ones in their current playstyle. Sheik can't really do that; her improvements in that department mostly comes from detail work and constantly grooming for bad habits, which isn't as noticeable on offset and for some much more difficult.
I don't really care whether you main Fox or Sheik but this is a good time to start looking for reasons why you cannot kill a typical Fox player in one grab sequence with any regularity. Or why you can't slap people out of their actions as well as Amsah used to. Hell, you can even ask the boards. There are a few good posters still here. And most importantly, if or when you get your answers, you have to ask yourself if this is how you want to improve your skill as a player. Because if it's not then you really shouldn't play Sheik.
For something you can improve right away and that will probably make the above easier to digest (since Sheik is nice in that respect), your combos are horrific and awful. Learn how to up air. Then do it. Especially at low percent. As a general rule, you shouldn't be comboed for 40% because you landed a grab on Peach and got a free follow up >_>
It's actually kind of surprising to me that you don't see how to improve. But I don't think you actually know much about combat in Melee in general. Or Sheik. So, from the top...
You could open up a lot of options and make much better plays in general if you cut fewer corners and simply focused more on your footing (getting good footing more quickly and more often). I don't think you know what your goal is vs Peach at the different percentages. I don't think you get that the attacks you tech chase with have an effect on how the opponent chooses their tech option. I definitely don't think you get that you're supposed to kill the opponent when you grab them. And it's very clear you don't get that fair is a better combo finisher than d-smash after like 40% (rough estimate) because of the trajectory and better action window it provides.
So, regarding positioning, I'm gonna just come out and say I'm not sure whether certain missteps you make are as a result of lag or whether you're aware of them because the kind of optimization I'm usually referring to deals with expanding the window you have on follow-up actions. Another way to look at it is that as a Sheik player you want to know how to maintain the ability to respond to the opponent as much as possible, and especially after hitting him because this **** has the capacity to death touch basically everyone but Peach and Jigglypuff in some manner. So it's a lot of detail work, but that tends to be the nature of characters that are based more on attacks more than movement.
...I should probably explain that last bit since I think it'll be useful for some of the intermediate players reading this. As a character whose best trait is attack quality, you're working on improving how you do your attacks, which means you have to know how your attacks work VERY THOROUGHLY and where they hit ALSO VERY THOROUGHLY. Your positioning and movement therefore become biased towards creating situations where your opponent has to interact with your attacks in some manner (approach you, jump in some cases, etc) since that's the easiest way to win exchanges. For this reason, better-than-crap Sheik players tend to play kind of passively or conservatively when she's out of position, or at least relative to someone like Fox. Sheik is in this respect a more extreme character - she has positions where her attacks simply kill everything and other positions where her attacks don't really benefit her much and in those instances she has to change where she is because she can't change her moves. In contrast, Fox's attacks are basically all really close to his body and with a handful of exceptions pretty crap priority for a top character. But his positions always have some manner of aggressive and defensive actions because of how fast and fluid his movement is, which enables him to go somewhere else if threatened or attack if he thinks he can get the jump on you. And in the odd situation where he lacks a way to threaten to hit you, changing that is probably just a matter of FJ WLing somewhere. So his option pool has a nice, consistent variety to it and is basically always at least okay.
Okay, so now I have to steer this back to why improving with Sheik is so hard for some people...
To begin, I don't think the 90%+ of the player base consciously knows much if anything about the above paragraph's major subject and all the misconceptions it has bred and popularized (800 APM falco lomtardos ftw). But I do suspect these kinds of conventions are picked up subconsciously by most players in some capacity. And I am beginning to think that when success with a character requires the player to structure combat so it follows a superficially rigid conventions, it really bothers most players (and I have theories on that too but they're mean so they're best left off the boards). In general, I think people like the freedom of the spacies because they can attack in so many positions effectively relative to other characters. And their large option suite coupled with transitions off the shine give them a flexibility. Often people improve their Fox by learning a new technique to compliment the ones in their current playstyle. Sheik can't really do that; her improvements in that department mostly comes from detail work and constantly grooming for bad habits, which isn't as noticeable on offset and for some much more difficult.
I don't really care whether you main Fox or Sheik but this is a good time to start looking for reasons why you cannot kill a typical Fox player in one grab sequence with any regularity. Or why you can't slap people out of their actions as well as Amsah used to. Hell, you can even ask the boards. There are a few good posters still here. And most importantly, if or when you get your answers, you have to ask yourself if this is how you want to improve your skill as a player. Because if it's not then you really shouldn't play Sheik.
For something you can improve right away and that will probably make the above easier to digest (since Sheik is nice in that respect), your combos are horrific and awful. Learn how to up air. Then do it. Especially at low percent. As a general rule, you shouldn't be comboed for 40% because you landed a grab on Peach and got a free follow up >_>
darkatma
Smash Hero
God I miss KK. Can I just give you a hug at BH3?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LMFAO falco lomtardo
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I dunno if I'm going
darkatma
Smash Hero
Sadness! D: Goooo
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Why don't people implement Sheik's "tap dance" more? It accomplishes the same thing as dash dancing, just with a different timing...
dkuo
Smash Lord
the one time me and wenbo went to pa i saw silentswag do the tapdance a lot
it goes farther and each dash can sustain for a bit longer so i started implementing it with my fraudulent sheik. its pretty cool
it goes farther and each dash can sustain for a bit longer so i started implementing it with my fraudulent sheik. its pretty cool
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Trots are great how is this new
darkatma
Smash Hero
KK are you free for some actual sheik discussion sometime? I wanted to go over some falco matchup things.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah sure hit me up on some chat thing
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
I don't know how rigid sheik is, but I definitely have experienced players' inability to grasp the limitations of marth. Reminds me of a certain NC player who lectured me that my conception of marth was stifling and that I shouldn't try to crush a new player's sense of "style."
style is often the word people use to mean "doing whatever the hell they want in the situation.. and having a nice variety of options to choose from"
So naturally those kinds of players gravitate toward characters who aren't punished as harshly for doing what they want and also have the variety they seek. Accepting that your char has only 1-2 good options in a situation, both of which are defensive in nature, requires a lot of patience and willingness to accept the limitations of your char. This is unfortunately a very rare trait, making the vast majority of the cast unplayable for the average player.
I have more luck trying to teach low tier mains for exactly that reason. They have no problem accepting that some characters are ridiculously disadvantaged in some situations. With marth, there are some situations in which you have almost no good options...and others in which your positional advantage is insurmountable for some chars.
also that last paragraph was the icing on the cake. I never take seriously posts by people saying they don't see room for improvement in their vids because I see room for improvement even in m2k's vids. But i am usually too reserved to point out the 1 million things I see wrong.
Awstintacious
Smash Apprentice
Just wondering if anyone has done frame testing to see if pulling a needle at the top of sheik's SH is faster than wavelanding in place. Canceling as soon as possible. Battlefield platforms. Seems like it's faster if looking for techchase.
Ezzee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 187
How do I fight peach? I just can't seem to get her down. I've tried playing both offensively and defensively and nothing seems to work. I often outplay my friend and I still lose(please don't ask me how, I know sheik's supposed to have an advantage). What are some basic combos/strats against peach?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
grab into sheik bull****
Being able to downthrow > dash forward > sh > uair (quickly, you don't have much leeway here) unlocks a really good combo starter at lower percents
at higher percents fair / uair will end Peach's life fairly quickly
you have nice long legs, they can be annoying for Peach to get around. E.g. you can sometimes ftilt her out of her float approaches, which is super nice, because she's probably holding in at that point in time
Being able to downthrow > dash forward > sh > uair (quickly, you don't have much leeway here) unlocks a really good combo starter at lower percents
at higher percents fair / uair will end Peach's life fairly quickly
you have nice long legs, they can be annoying for Peach to get around. E.g. you can sometimes ftilt her out of her float approaches, which is super nice, because she's probably holding in at that point in time
Ezzee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 187
I've tried all of that. It ends up being a close far but I still end up losing because he ends up gimping my recovery at 40 with d-smash. I try spacing with bair but miss timing even one it usually leads to me getting edge guarded with d-smash. Also, I know you can tech it, but how precise is the timing? Should I hold down a shoulder button before I get hit?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Peach's dsmash is one of the easiest things to wall-tech in this game. No need to get any SDI or ASDI because it'll gladly pull you in. So the only thing you need to learn is the timing. I'm not quite sure if it's even needed though; shouldn't Sheik be able to just get to the ledge with the invincibility on the poof?
Well, in any case: You definitely need to press the shoulder button before you get hit. It's impossible to input the tech command in hitstun, so teching after the hit is only possible if you don't need (A)SDI, and a lot harder to do, because you'll probably only fly for a frame or two before hitting the wall.
To visualize the timing, it's maybe helpful to think of inputting the tech at the moment you would let go off down during the shino stall in order to prevent flying past the stage.
Well, and if downsmash ends up being that big of a problem, you definitely need to learn working around that. The move is good and has its uses but it definitely shouldn't lead to edgeguards every time, nor should it be the goto option in edgeguarding anybody.
Well, in any case: You definitely need to press the shoulder button before you get hit. It's impossible to input the tech command in hitstun, so teching after the hit is only possible if you don't need (A)SDI, and a lot harder to do, because you'll probably only fly for a frame or two before hitting the wall.
To visualize the timing, it's maybe helpful to think of inputting the tech at the moment you would let go off down during the shino stall in order to prevent flying past the stage.
Well, and if downsmash ends up being that big of a problem, you definitely need to learn working around that. The move is good and has its uses but it definitely shouldn't lead to edgeguards every time, nor should it be the goto option in edgeguarding anybody.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Maybe you're not recovering well? I think you're saying you're getting stage spiked because you're missing a tech. I'm making that assumption because you said you keep dying at ~40%. If she is simply knocking you off again with Dsmash, you shouldn't be getting killed that early. So, if you're getting hit into the stage, read advice A. If you're getting past the ledge, and she is just Dsmashing again, then you must either be not getting your jump back(see B), or taking multiple hits from the Dsmash(see C).
A:If you're only at around 40%, don't let yourself get hit into the stage. Try staying away from the stage(and her range) until you start your UpB. Get onto the stage/ledge with your UpB. You shouldn't be vulnerable when you're in her range. Once you grab the ledge, you can Fair her during her lag(You should still be invincible from being on the ledge).
B: If you're not getting your jump back, you're not landing on the stage, and you're on the other side of her. If you know she is going to Dsmash, try going to the ledge. If you can't make it to the ledge, try sending Shiek down to land on the stage, which will give you your jump back. Also you can try putting your character right above the ledge, so that you fall into the Dsmash and it knocks you into the stage.
C:If you're taking multiple hits, you're holding down. If you start at 40% and get hit by several hits from the Dsmash, it would make sense to die from it. If you hold up, you will only get hit by one or maybe 2 hits and should live more easily.
A:If you're only at around 40%, don't let yourself get hit into the stage. Try staying away from the stage(and her range) until you start your UpB. Get onto the stage/ledge with your UpB. You shouldn't be vulnerable when you're in her range. Once you grab the ledge, you can Fair her during her lag(You should still be invincible from being on the ledge).
B: If you're not getting your jump back, you're not landing on the stage, and you're on the other side of her. If you know she is going to Dsmash, try going to the ledge. If you can't make it to the ledge, try sending Shiek down to land on the stage, which will give you your jump back. Also you can try putting your character right above the ledge, so that you fall into the Dsmash and it knocks you into the stage.
C:If you're taking multiple hits, you're holding down. If you start at 40% and get hit by several hits from the Dsmash, it would make sense to die from it. If you hold up, you will only get hit by one or maybe 2 hits and should live more easily.
Ezzee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 187
Here's what usually happen. He knocks me off the stage and flows up with a bair or nair. Sometimes he'll follow up with another or use a turnip to stop my forward momentum on my double jump. I'll be in a possition where I can only make it back to the ledge meaning I can't grab it with vanish's invincibility and he'll stage spike me with d-smash
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Okay first get into the habit of saving your DJ. Turnips can be caught or attacked. Don't lose your jump momentum when you use it without a good reason. Or your recovery is 80x worse than it should be simply on that.
Anything with a wall-bounce can be teched unless you pressed L or R within the last 21-40 frames.
Regarding your other problems... Sheik has more range than Peach and even offstage is probably more mobile in a lot of respects. So you actually can just use your attacks to prevent her from edgeguarding you in a lot of cases. This looks like one of them.
Slap her for trying to nair you. Drift back a bit or break your momentum so you can get the good angle for your slap and then do it. Try to do this during your free fall; you want to save your DJ so if she starts trying to outspace you carefully or rush harder or basically extend harder to compensate for your range advantage over her attacks (and her lack of an invulnerable ledgehop attack worth anything) then you have your jump available to interact with it and probably provide you with an evasive solution.
Because of her relatively unimpressive vertical movement, using your up-B earlier than usual and jumping to build height (accepting that you won't grab the edge at all very early) so you can go for the top platform without being disrupted (but knowing you're going to be hit by nair or something) can usually be a worthwhile conservative choice and it tends to not forfeit much in the long run (unless she pulls a bob-omb or stitch [omfg Vwins]).
Anything with a wall-bounce can be teched unless you pressed L or R within the last 21-40 frames.
Regarding your other problems... Sheik has more range than Peach and even offstage is probably more mobile in a lot of respects. So you actually can just use your attacks to prevent her from edgeguarding you in a lot of cases. This looks like one of them.
Slap her for trying to nair you. Drift back a bit or break your momentum so you can get the good angle for your slap and then do it. Try to do this during your free fall; you want to save your DJ so if she starts trying to outspace you carefully or rush harder or basically extend harder to compensate for your range advantage over her attacks (and her lack of an invulnerable ledgehop attack worth anything) then you have your jump available to interact with it and probably provide you with an evasive solution.
Because of her relatively unimpressive vertical movement, using your up-B earlier than usual and jumping to build height (accepting that you won't grab the edge at all very early) so you can go for the top platform without being disrupted (but knowing you're going to be hit by nair or something) can usually be a worthwhile conservative choice and it tends to not forfeit much in the long run (unless she pulls a bob-omb or stitch [omfg Vwins]).
Hey guys!
I am kinda new to the 'competitive scene', and by new, I mean I have a desire to greatly improve my skills to be a higher caliber player.... I main sheik, but was having problems with spacing/ finding appropriate times to use my dashdance/ foxtrot.... Could someone refer me to a thread that could help me better improve on these areas or give me some tips here?
I know all the mechanics, I just need to learn more appropriate uses for all of them.
Thanks
I am kinda new to the 'competitive scene', and by new, I mean I have a desire to greatly improve my skills to be a higher caliber player.... I main sheik, but was having problems with spacing/ finding appropriate times to use my dashdance/ foxtrot.... Could someone refer me to a thread that could help me better improve on these areas or give me some tips here?
I know all the mechanics, I just need to learn more appropriate uses for all of them.
Thanks
SaggyG
Smash Cadet
man, I got **** on
SyphiliS
Smash Cadet
Darkatma I really enjoyed watching your sheik!
Same here.
Also, best option to do when I run up to a Fox who is on the ledge? I usually dsmash anticipating a ledge attack, but when the do, they go past the hitbox in front of me, and get hit by the one behind me.
Also, best option to do when I run up to a Fox who is on the ledge? I usually dsmash anticipating a ledge attack, but when the do, they go past the hitbox in front of me, and get hit by the one behind me.
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Babes10char
So what are my best options?
A.SHFFL'd fair?
A.SHFFL'd fair?
SyphiliS
Smash Cadet
backflip fair maybe. but i'm a newb and i just like to backflip
Luma
Smash Lord
there is no best option, it always depends on the situation and the player you are playing against
sometimes its a fair, sometimes its a needle, sometimes its a downsmash, sometimes its just a wavedash back
sometimes its a fair, sometimes its a needle, sometimes its a downsmash, sometimes its just a wavedash back
moogle
Smash Ace
I thought I'd try posting some recent videos in this thread rather than making a new thread. I'm looking for a critique on however many videos you guys are willing to watch.
3 sets from the Big House 3 stream:
vs. Toph (Fox)
vs. Kalamazhu (Peach)
vs. Hax (C. Falcon)
And I have an hour worth of friendlies against MEDZ, from Arizona.
vs. MEDZ (Fox)
vs. MEDZ (Marth)
3 sets from the Big House 3 stream:
vs. Toph (Fox)
vs. Kalamazhu (Peach)
vs. Hax (C. Falcon)
And I have an hour worth of friendlies against MEDZ, from Arizona.
vs. MEDZ (Fox)
vs. MEDZ (Marth)