Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Binx]

Yeah up angling shields is something I learned really early on the ice climber boards specifically for Falco, I use it vs every character as every character (cept jiggs) to mess up l cancel timing and occasionally get some grabs that wouldn't normally be possible, definitely works best with characters like sheik and fox and marth who can all capitalize on grabs so well.

 

[soap]

i remember someone telling me sheik has a big sheild relative to others which makes this good with her factoring in her height and all

 

[Binx]

Absolutely sheik can shield grab more than most characters from what I've observed. Her height makes her easier to cross up though also.

 

[KevinM]

Yeah angling shields should be done for basically all characters.

And take everything P says with a grain of salt, he's not quite sure what he's talking about.

Also, Spawn are you coming to Jam's sunday I demand tons of matches since it will be sexy lol.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

actually i'm quite sure what i'm talking about, the only reason i said 90% was because i respect kirby kaze's knowledge of the game and his character knowledge so i'm going to assume he didn't come up with what he said out of thin air

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's what I used vs pretty much every Falco I played against at RoM, and it worked fine. I actually ripped the strategy from M2K when he explained it many moons ago, but I don't feel like dredging up the post. Sadly, I didn't get to play Shiz or Mango's Falcos though so idk. I wanted to, but too many people in line(s).

Her Nair does beat Falco's SH Nair if you do it right, though. I don't know why or how, but it seems to. It is entirely possible this is because I'm not fighting Shiz or Mango's Falcos, however.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Yeah I remember that post, which is why I started spamming and toying with it at all opportunities. But Zhu and Tofu **** me for that all the time, to the point where Tofu will intentionally bait out my nair out of shield just so he can beat it and **** me some more. Iono, I'll try to mess around with the timing some more, because if Sheik really could beat Falco's nair/dair, that'd be broken as ****

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well, if they're baiting out your Nair then you're probably doing it too much.

I wish I could play good Falcos frequently. Then I'd be able to help more. Now I just platform camp and spam Bair and Fair anyways and chuck needles but maybe this is bad strategy?

 

[Binx]

you have to nair before theirs goes off it depends on spacing, it doesn't work in laser range, it works in drill range. Cactuar has a post saying you wanna be 1/2 of a short hop laser approach from falco, thats where he has to run from you or attack you, if you think they will attack if you are shielding at that distance is when you use the nair cause it comes out faster, at worst you trade hits.

Otherwise its all smart play to get into that range, and like I said I like to run around on platforms and needle or bair, if bair knocks them down you get a tech chase, you can either run forward a little and wavedash in place if you think they will roll towards you, or you can run at them if away or run at them and stop with a shield for in place, then either grab after the dodge or you can nair or grab early if you don't expect a dodge.

With no platforms I full hop towards them and immediately nair if I expect them to try and intercept or come down with a fair. If they expect it they can dash dance grab you or shield pressure you. I really hate FD vs Falco I just don't know what to do. Easy peasy tech chases though =)

 

[ArcNatural]

You can also grab after the shine, this probably isn't guaranteed but I saw M2k do it enough at RoM on good and bad falcos to know if you have the timing down you can grab them through the dair. M2k also seems to believe sh/fj nair oos beats falcos dair/nair pillaring. You just have to be careful because Falco CAN just pillar -> DI away from you and Fsmash or something like that if they expect the pillar c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker. They can also shine, sh shine and knock you out of it as well.

I have a feeling Sheik's would be a lot better if they didn't try to attack Falcos until 40+ %. As everyone knows Falco can easily CC from 0-40% practically everything you do. This should be pure bair, needle, and grab territory. Even dsmash is pretty punishable at those %. If you are going to fair it would probably be best to roll right after it. I see too many Sheiks try to fair -> jab/tilt at these % and just get CC *****.

I feel like I'm pointing out old news, but even good Sheiks seem to get pressured and fall for this once a match where they try something stupid and lose like 60% of their next stock because of it. It adds up.

 

[soap]

i do remember kirbykaze having ridiculously good timing on aerials oos and the like during our friendlies way back when. I was getting hit with **** i didnt know actually worked. He may just have more success because he is weird like that

 

[SPAWN]

Yeah, KevinM I'm going to Jam's. We shall definitely play.

 

[Linguini]

falco is my best matchup, carried over from ganon lol.
nair oos isnt as good as you make it to be, at least against good falco's. its not going to beat the dair but it beats out falco's nair if timed correctly. sheiks grab is also madd broken, you can grab the shine easily once you get the timing right.
at low percents its better just to grab and techase with d smash or more grabs, make sure you dont dash attack before 30%, against shiz and chops that cc shine =50%.

Ive recently been using dtilt alot against falco, when they try to laser up from the ledge it gets them alot of the time(which you can continue with a slap), its also great to cc get-up attacks while you dtilt them.

 

[Teczer0]

falco is my best matchup, carried over from ganon lol.
nair oos isnt as good as you make it to be, at least against good falco's. its not going to beat the dair but it beats out falco's nair if timed correctly. sheiks grab is also madd broken, you can grab the shine easily once you get the timing right.
at low percents its better just to grab and techase with d smash or more grabs, make sure you dont dash attack before 30%, against shiz and chops that cc shine =50%.

Ive recently been using dtilt alot against falco, when they try to laser up from the ledge it gets them alot of the time(which you can continue with a slap), its also great to cc get-up attacks while you dtilt them.

lol no one said nair OOS is like the bane of falco's existence.

But when you're stuck in shield its a much better idea to try and not to roll into more ****.

Yea dash attacking when falco is low hurts you a lot

 

[soap]

man, drephen just lol-***** me in tourney.

I was thinkin " o he got 33rd last week maybe he's not good anymore lol."

I think they got recorded cuz it was winner's finals, so um look forward to those haha.

 

[SPAWN]

Nope, Drephen's still just as good as he's always been. I dunno what happened at RoM.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

i asked mango about grabbing falco's shine...

The hero loto (11:09:35 AM): "sheiks grab is also madd broken, you can grab the shine easily once you get the timing right." - linguini
PrrettyMango69 (11:09:41 AM): yeah
PrrettyMango69 (11:09:42 AM): lol
PrrettyMango69 (11:09:47 AM): i thought everyone new that
The hero loto (11:09:49 AM): wtf
The hero loto (11:09:50 AM): how
The hero loto (11:09:54 AM): so he aerials
The hero loto (11:09:56 AM): lands and then shines
PrrettyMango69 (11:10:02 AM): yeah
The hero loto (11:10:03 AM): and you can grab before he begins another pillar?
PrrettyMango69 (11:10:12 AM): no one can do it tho
PrrettyMango69 (11:10:14 AM): only m2k
PrrettyMango69 (11:10:14 AM): lol
The hero loto (11:10:17 AM): wow
The hero loto (11:10:19 AM): i'ma learn it then
PrrettyMango69 (11:10:23 AM): good luck
PrrettyMango69 (11:10:28 AM): he told me u have 2 be framesss perfect yo

 

[Luma]

that depends on the aerial (might be a nair, dunno if it works then, or when his dair is hitting your shield) but its actually not that hard if you got the timing, and well afaik its only 2 frames when the dair hits at the very last moment or something

 

[Linguini]

lol I learned how to grab the shine from playing chops every day back in 07.I cant really explain it but its just muscle memory. Ima try to go undefeated against falco like I did with ganon, cept shiz prob knows how to fight sheik.....

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

You can definitely do all sorts of stuff to falco out of shield if you time it right. The problem is that good falcos will vary the timings between dair and shine and fux with you that way, but generally they only do this after the first iteration, leaving you plenty of time to **** their asses. Frame perfect nair comes out on frame 6, shield grab frame 7, buffered shield grab frame 8-10. Anywhere where you have this amount of red frames or more is where you can interrupt the pillar. Oh yeah and I have no clue how long it takes WD oos to get you out of safe distance, partially because I don't know how long it actually takes for the AD to start up and partially because I have no clue how fast wavedashing actually is.

Oh yeah and about the up angling trick, I didn't know about that until this WE when I was at a smash fest and this other duded was doing this to me. I had no clue what he was trying to do so I was like "wtf is this ****" and downtilted him. Kind of funny. Noobs badly applying random techniques blow.

As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun
Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28
29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine Again


I hope this clarifies everything for everyone, but i have a feeling it's going to generate more questions than answers. This just goes to show, The pillar is not as safe as you think.

Edit: this is the kind of **** you should quote in the first post.

 

[Falcinho]

Against 45% of Falcos you can just roll away because they are like "lol dairshinedairshine" and suck at roll chasing.
Against other 45% of Falcos you can just wait for their second dair because they aren't technical enough to pillar (and they often also don't space)

The rest is smart and/or techskilled and you have to be good with nairs/slaps/WDs out of shield/grab almost frameperfect.

One cool thing is to wait for a shine and grab ASAP, but if you're spamming it they will go cactus mode and just leave the shine out to confuse you =/

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

More fun stuff to do against bad Falcos: Full jump out of your shield and watch them pillar emptiness. Then hit them and subsequently tech chase to death.

 

[soap]

how many times do u press A during certain percentage ranges of the chaingrab to guarantee they don't break out?

I remember seeing a list somewhere I forget.

Anybody know what percentages sheik can jump out of sheik's chaingrab on FD? Just wondering what range to look to finish it assuming they don't DI off the stage.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

so you have two frames to grab after the shine, and five frames to grab them after their dair as they are dealing with the l-canceled lag?

so that means you have to start your shield grab early... so is frame seven the first frame where her hand reaches forward? or are you vulnerable those first six frames that you shield grab out of your shield? god i am so confused

 

[soap]

I'm pretty sure she is vulnerable those six frames. The grab animation cancels the shield, and there is six frames of startup.

 

[SPAWN]

So, let me get this straight, you can grab Falco anytime he's in the red from that post?

 

[Falcinho]

anytime there are 6 (or 7?) red frames in a row i think.

And why should Sheik not be vulnerable in the startup?

I think right during the frame(s) where the grab occurs you're kinda invincible because grabs overprioritise non-grab moves, but im not sure

 

[Goon Squad]

anytime there are 6 (or 7?) red frames in a row i think.

but once falco is a certain point in the air he's too high to shield grab, right?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I'm pretty sure she is vulnerable those six frames. The grab animation cancels the shield, and there is six frames of startup.

This is correct. Once you start an action that cancels the shield (grab, jump) the shield gets canceled (who woulda thunk) and you go into your normal grab/jump animation.

I think right during the frame(s) where the grab occurs you're kinda invincible because grabs overprioritise non-grab moves, but im not sure

This is almost true. Grab does outprioritize every move. Unfortunately, shine doesn't only come out first frame, it also happens to have invincibility on that frame. So if the grab hitbox and shine hitbox "collide" what would happen is that Sheik's grab misses (because the spacie is invincible) and the shine hits sheik.

To clarify the whole frame data thing, let me just give you a few examples.

Ideal Pillar (typical pillar)
The first frame window where your shield isn't in stun is 15 frames long, from frame 11 to frame 25. Say you want to grab Falco. With frame perfect execution, it would look a bit like this:

11 start grab
12 grabbing
13 Airborne grabbing
14 grabbing
15 grabbing
16 grabbing
17 Grab comes out
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25

However, you can also do it as late as this:

11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 Grab starts
21 Start Dair grabbing
22 grabbing
23 grabbing
24 grabbing
25 grabbing
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall Grab comes out and outprioritizes dair

Thus you have to be accurate to within 9 frames to succesfully shieldgrab a Falco out of a standard pillar after the shine. That's 0.15 seconds, which IMO is pretty reasonable. Nair OoS is a frame faster, but most of the time you're probably going to not do it perfectly and do it like frame 10 or something, so it's probably easier to just grab.

Early Pillar
During the early pillar, the first red window is only 6 frames long. With frame perfect execution (in other words, don't actually do this, it's just an example), you can nair OoS to interrup the pillar:

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11 start jump
12 jumping
13 Airborne (start Dair) jumping
14 airborne, start nair
15 nairing
16 nair hits
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag

As you can see from this example, nair oos is pretty damn fast- as long as you can actually execute it well enough.

Edit:

but once falco is a certain point in the air he's too high to shield grab, right?

I don't think so. Falco's short hop is pretty low, and Sheik's grab hitbox is way too proken so I doubt this is the case.

 

[soap]

the top of falco's sh is definitely out of grab range. I think foxes sh is always in grab range

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

You also have to consider that for part of the short hop, Falco is sticking his legs down and pirouetting. All I know is I have NEVER grabbed underneath Falco during his pillar, but I don't play a lot of Falcos.

 

[SPAWN]

I wish there wasn't more than one way to pillar. It'd be so easy to grab Falco.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Since when has it been hard?

Just force him to tech, free grab right there.

 

[SPAWN]

I meant from pillar. >.>

 

[Binx]

So from a pillar you grab after the shine? within two frames.

How about after a drill before the shine, can you grab then? the frame data looks weird to me presented that way haha.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Depends on the timing between dair and shine.

 

[pockyD]

As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun
Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16
17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25
26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10
11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28
29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag
45 Shine Again

The gist of it is that you can grab dair shine dair, but the window varies depending on when they dair

also, if i'm crunching the numbers right, i don't think you can even nair OOS after shine if they do immediate dair (or if they shine again)

edit: for reference, sheik's grab is 7 frames, so you'd be looking for a 7frame window in the big red/green stuff

 

[thumbswayup]

Sheik Q&A thread eh? Here's a question

How many Sheiks does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Two

One to screw in the lightbulb

and one to SUCK MY ****

 

[Teczer0]

Sheik Q&A thread eh? Here's a question

How many Sheiks does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Two

One to screw in the lightbulb

and one to SUCK MY ****

Hey

Why are you so jealous?

Don't hate on ninjas that love animals.

I mean when I played your fox I sent him on an express way to cloud service. At least you can be nice to us thanks to my favor

I even faired waved at him wishing him a nice trip.

 

[Spife]

Sheik Q&A thread eh? Here's a question

How many Sheiks does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Two

One to screw in the lightbulb

and one to CG half the cast

fix'd
dthrowchar