Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Jolteon]

Sheik and Marth are not weak characters. Go to the Doc boards and see how much they complain about their character.

 

[stelzig]

Dash attack is the greatest. That attack can be spaced in so many ways.

inb4 KK screams at me for bringing Samus into this thread.

Nothing beats the windmill of fury!

 

[BTmoney]

I suppose I have a different definition of weak than you do when I describe Marth. He literally has comparatively weak kill power and unreliable kill setups. I didn't he was bad. Sheik is nowhere near weak though.

 

[bubbaking]

Sheik and Marth are not weak characters. Go to the Doc boards and see how much they complain about their character.

Actually, I disagree. Marth is a "weak" character, KB-wise, because he has to tipper or gimp to kill anything below insanely high %'s. As an overall character, he's excellent, which I guess you could use synonymously with "strong" but in the pure sense of overall KB of moves, I'd put him on the weaker side when it comes to characters in C Tier and above. Doc complains about Marth because Marth's range and priority is dumb and Doc's isn't. Doc has to really work ultra hard to get in safely. That and he gets gimped. Samus players also complain a lot about Marth (not me though; I actually LOVE that MU), because he combos us to kingdom come but we acknowledge that, as long as we CC whenever we can't avoid being hit on the ground and we DI everything correctly, Marth shouldn't be killing us below 120% (very often higher, even) unless he edgeguards well.

I do agree that Sheik most definitely isn't a weak character though, even pure KB-wise. Between fair, usmash, and uair, she's pretty strong. Even sweetspotted bair and dsmash have some decent power.

 

[Jolteon]

I meant as a good character. :B

Compared to the rest of the top tiers he does lack KO power though.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Alright played against Velocity more yesterday (Doc) I really don't like keeping him above me that much I think im gonna try and get him off stage instead. Should I even try for gimps? Any tips on bthrow off ledge vs Doc?

 

[virtuososteve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ8QlNgQ7L4
Look at this Sheik vs Hax's Falcon! Now thats what i call tech chasing

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wow never heard of him before, but he is good. Very bread and butter, doesn't try anything fancy, doesn't over extend, takes his time, knows his strengths and covers his weaknesses. I liked his spacing too, a lot of small things to bait hax into thinking he could attack and then SD would move and punish. I think the thing that surprised me most was how consistent he was. Very few tech mistakes (i think i saw one time in game 1 where he jabbed instead of ftilting and then a missed lcancel when he was falco and got grabbed) and I didn't see any pressure or nerves in his gameplay. Solid, solid, solid.

 

[Metal Reeper]

SD is amazing. He also beat eggm.
Surprised everyone doesnt know of him.

 

[omgwtfToph]

fraudulent imo

 

[BTmoney]

I really like how he positions himself in each situation. He takes all the fluff out. It's how sheik should be played imo, a lot of sheiks do unnecessary things.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Since we were talking about why Sheik is bad, I'll give her main weaknesses

1 - limited moveset at low percent
2 - more adherence to the base combat RPS systems than many other good characters out of necessity
3 - no CG on spacies
4 - low aerial mobility offers various limitations
5 - mediocre recovery at best
6 - heavy reliance on grab to get work done, but no broken dash dance lead in

That said, her strengths vastly outnumber these and some of them are minor points at best.



Swedish Delight is alright. I need to see more of him. Hax isn't much of a Sheik slayer nowadays AFAIK but the win is still solid.

 

[Metal Reeper]

He goes falco now?
Ccing most projectiles is godly.

 

[soap]

ya I'd like to see more of Swedish Delight. Nice set.

Hax was missing things like stomp knees tho. Multiple edgeguards. I don't think he teched one dsmash at the edge.

It's the little things that swing momentum in the set.

 

[BTmoney]

Swedish Delight is alright. I need to see more of him. Hax isn't much of a Sheik slayer nowadays AFAIK but the win is still solid.

I know hax had some great, long sets with M2k's sheik. He wouldn't win but he made it certainly look close.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm basing this off his performance against me at ROM5 in our MM, his reaction after, and his various recent sets vs other Sheiks. I guess going 2-3 with M2K is pretty good but I feel his consistency in the matchup has gone down with his absence. It's hard for me to consider someone a <character> slayer when they have a bunch of losses to various people in the matchup.

 

[SillyGoose]

what was the result of that money match?

 

[NewJerusalem]

I am the blue Sheik, any constructive criticism will be fine .

I hope this is the right place to put this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm31Dxsg0WY

 

[BTmoney]

I am the blue Sheik, any constructive criticism will be fine .

I hope this is the right place to put this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm31Dxsg0WY

I didn't see any JC grabs and you should JC all of them if not the overwhelming majority (or boost grabs but I don't think that was quite necessary in this match)
When your partner died, you kind of just rolled to the ledge and got punished, you would have lost that stock if your partner didn't come save you, your other options are either light shielding by the edge of a platform (it's good, some players do it. If they hit you with anything you tumble safely off the platform and you can do as you please, if they try grab you it's kind of obvious and you can get away from it), ledge stall because you are sheik, or just try to avoid the two players.
Actually you could have just tried to fend off the other sheik by spacing an ftilt or doing something to get her away from you. You concede all position (you didn't have any good position right there but you had some and the other sheik was kind of doing nothing) when you roll to the ledge.
I thought you got a little grab and dsmash happy at some points as well in the first match.
Your survival DI was not good at all though lol (reminiscent of mine)
Throw in some fair->jab or fair->grab those are great tools AND will open up tomahawks
And that upsmash off of the marth grab was smooth AF

But you still played well in the neutral game, and smart. You didn't do anything stupid or reckless which is always good.
A few times you chose some less than optimal options off of tilts or dthrow, you still got good positioning and damage but if you are not extending a combo you should probably just end a combo in fair.

Edit:
I suck though so don't value my opinion at all
Kirbykaze teach me the ways.

 

[V]

Question for KK

I've been watching a lot of your sets recently and I noticed that you often will dash at a non teching opponent and instantly jab reset. Are you timing the jab after the dash animation or are you crouching out of dash into jab?

 

[BTmoney]

You can't crouch a foxtrot (the initial dash burst) you also cannot JC into a jab. So that means he has to be dashing a foxtrot distance (or further) and then crouching and then jabbing or WD forward and jabbing (the latter seems more reasonable).

Also dash->crouch->jab seems a bit akward when you can just WD forward imo.

 

[V]

He's definitely not wavedashing it's only the dash animation. It's usually a lot farther than Sheik's wd length.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I didn't see any JC grabs and you should JC all of them if not the overwhelming majority (or boost grabs but I don't think that was quite necessary in this match)

not true

 

[BTmoney]

not true

Standard grab grabs 1 frame sooner and 10 less IASA frames. The advantage to running grab is having much more range behind sheik but I'm not sure that is really worth anything since you shouldn't be running past people while grabbing. I guess you could argue it having more range in front of her as well but that is not apparent to me in terms of practicallity, as of right now I like JC grabs

But you can convince me otherwise

 

[omgwtfToph]

it has bigger range and is the same speed or faster lol

IASA frames shouldn't matter if you're not whiffing your grabs (and if you whiff a grab then you're probably gonna get punished anyway so moot point)

nurgle

 

[bubbaking]

Wow never heard of him before, but he is good. Very bread and butter, doesn't try anything fancy, doesn't over extend, takes his time, knows his strengths and covers his weaknesses. I liked his spacing too, a lot of small things to bait hax into thinking he could attack and then SD would move and punish. I think the thing that surprised me most was how consistent he was. Very few tech mistakes (i think i saw one time in game 1 where he jabbed instead of ftilting and then a missed lcancel when he was falco and got grabbed) and I didn't see any pressure or nerves in his gameplay. Solid, solid, solid.

I've heard of Swedish Delight. He's a really good up-and-coming Sheik right now. He actually messed up twice in a row with Falco. He missed the L-cancel, which Hax didn't punish, but then he missed JC on the subsequent shine, which Hax DID punish.

He goes falco now?
Ccing most projectiles is godly.

It seemed like sandbagging to me and he got 2-stocked for it. What do you mean by your second sentence?

 

[bubbaking]

Double post, but it's been over two hours.

his reaction after

What was this....."reaction"?

Also dash->crouch->jab seems a bit akward when you can just WD forward imo.

Over a distance, I'm pretty sure a dash is faster albeit indeed harder.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

It really isn't very difficult at all, just practice it for literally 5 minutes or so. You just dash and then quickly press down and let go of the stick --> jab. Letting go of the stick and pressing A timing is very close but easy. Worst comes to worst...you d-smash their no tech I suppose.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okay you guys have to understand something about the main movement techniques. The below is very general, but a good rule of thumb.

Ground movement breakdown:

Dash options > anything with jump, anything with shield, grab, dash attack, side-B. Can be canceled into a dash in the opposite direction at any point during a large window, enabling high mobility. When this window passes, the movement changes and becomes a "Run" instead of a "Dash". At this point, options change again.

Run options > access to dash cancel enables everything (semi-unique access to ground normals without walking), but requires a commitment of your character running a set distance forward (varies for character). You are also required to face forward. Immediate turn-around retreats by dashing the opposite direction after a dash cancel is tough so most people wavedash there. It is often better than wavedash when you have the distance to support it. Often used for resetting dash dance camp launch points.

Wavedash options > everything (semi-unique access to ground normals without walking) but requires a commitment (10+ frames) of inactivity the other movements don't suffer from. Allows you certain facing liberties, adds a low amount of external momentum that affects subsequent dashes and walking. Often used for resetting dash dance camp launch points. It is the only way to retreat the opponent while facing the opponent aside from empty pivots (which have a technically limiting factor and aren't much better anyway as far as I'm concerned).

Short hop options > all your aerials, DJ, DJ > WL, air-dodge, fast fall, no-fast fall, directional fades.

Walking and standing > everything enabled but has the drawback of basically getting you nowhere in terms of handling the opponent's efforts to gain a superior position on the map or relative to your character in the matchup because of how slow you're moving.



So using the above, think about efficiency. This game is about having your good and relevant options available and using them to limit the opponent's. This means that you need to be able to act cleanly and smoothly. However, we also have to respect the limitations of certain movements and rules of the game. For this reason, WD into jab is okay for tech chase because their landing area may be too far for you to be able to walk > jab but too close for dash > run > DC > jab to work. In that same vein, while I'll admit that trot > jab sometimes happens but it's usually suboptimal because it's not an option available out of the trot itself. This means I have to wait out the entire animation of the trot, which is a pretty big commitment all things considered.

So yeah, food for thought.

Hax lost 3-0 in our money match. Sheik's fair and bair are cheap.

 

[Kaffei]

wait, what does ">" mean
greater than or into

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure he means "into", not "greater than". For instance, during a dash, one can do "anything with jump, anything with shield, grab, dash attack, side-B."

 

[virtuososteve]

http://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M
WOW m2k vs PP
Sheik vs Marth
great games and great insight to see one of the best sheiks vs 2nd or now 1st best marth in the world

 

[soap]

I end

Okay you guys have to understand something about the main movement techniques. The below is very general, but a good rule of thumb.

Ground movement breakdown:

Dash options > anything with jump, anything with shield, grab, dash attack, side-B. Can be canceled into a dash in the opposite direction at any point during a large window, enabling high mobility. When this window passes, the movement changes and becomes a "Run" instead of a "Dash". At this point, options change again.

Run options > access to dash cancel enables everything (semi-unique access to ground normals without walking), but requires a commitment of your character running a set distance forward (varies for character). You are also required to face forward. Immediate turn-around retreats by dashing the opposite direction after a dash cancel is tough so most people wavedash there. It is often better than wavedash when you have the distance to support it. Often used for resetting dash dance camp launch points.

Wavedash options > everything (semi-unique access to ground normals without walking) but requires a commitment (10+ frames) of inactivity the other movements don't suffer from. Allows you certain facing liberties, adds a low amount of external momentum that affects subsequent dashes and walking. Often used for resetting dash dance camp launch points. It is the only way to retreat the opponent while facing the opponent aside from empty pivots (which have a technically limiting factor and aren't much better anyway as far as I'm concerned).

Short hop options > all your aerials, DJ, DJ > WL, air-dodge, fast fall, no-fast fall, directional fades.

Walking and standing > everything enabled but has the drawback of basically getting you nowhere in terms of handling the opponent's efforts to gain a superior position on the map or relative to your character in the matchup because of how slow you're moving.



So using the above, think about efficiency. This game is about having your good and relevant options available and using them to limit the opponent's. This means that you need to be able to act cleanly and smoothly. However, we also have to respect the limitations of certain movements and rules of the game. For this reason, WD into jab is okay for tech chase because their landing area may be too far for you to be able to walk > jab but too close for dash > run > DC > jab to work. In that same vein, while I'll admit that trot > jab sometimes happens but it's usually suboptimal because it's not an option available out of the trot itself. This means I have to wait out the entire animation of the trot, which is a pretty big commitment all things considered.

So yeah, food for thought.

Hax lost 3-0 in our money match. Sheik's fair and bair are cheap.

the run becomes a dash in such a short distance that is about the same as a full length wavedash. I run dash jab alot now. Wavedash is good cuz you can change the distances slightly tho

It's also notable that a trot back gives you enough distance to run back and dash cancel into a move in the same spot.

Also, after a trot, I sometimes find myself jump cancelling an upsmash, just cuz I want an in-place ground move without waiting for the trot to end. But more often I will usually just jump into a rising aerial or spaced shffl.

 

[unknown522]

aww man. That MM vs hax was not close at all.

Poor guy

 

[stelzig]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tK4LInWJBY#t=7m57s oh yes. Umm. Critique on this set is very welcome. So is it on any other set from this tournament (mostly again navn I guess - not uploaded yet. I don't get to play against spacies as often as most players. Denmark too small and diverse).

 

[Metal Reeper]

KK.....say my opponent is on a platform shielding. I guess I should just waveland grab/spaced ftilt? I just feel all my aerials are useless on shields considering the platform game. Any tips? I usually try to go for super late nair>jab or dsmash.
@Stelzig I really like your Sheik.
One thing I saw 5:55 you go for 2 dash attacks in a row and both get shielded. Should of grabbed. Sorry im sure this is obvious lol.

 

[NewJerusalem]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tK4LInWJBY#t=7m57s oh yes. Umm. Critique on this set is very welcome. So is it on any other set from this tournament (mostly again navn I guess - not uploaded yet. I don't get to play against spacies as often as most players. Denmark too small and diverse).

A couple of things I think you should consider.

1) Throws and Tech-chases.

You sometimes went for some weird throw setups with up-throw and one time you back threw at like half the stage away from the ledge. If you are near the ledge vs. spacies I suggest you always back-throw off the stage. Use whatever gimp setups you know or edge guard from there.

Every other case I recommend always Down-throwing. It's just that good. I always say spacies are the worst characters in the game when knocked down, that's when they're most vulnerable. You also ended you tech-chases really early with a preemptive down-smash, (good reads on the tech) but I think if you really want to max out damage potential then dash attacks above 40% should be your go to move. Then lead into fair or dair or whatever.

I also strongly recommend learning how to beat wake up shine. (Spacies tech in place then shine.) The easiest way to do this is by jabbing immediately after the down throw to cover the missed tech then dash away and then back really cleanly. If you do it right, they'll get their shine out but you can grab them right out of their jump animation before they can do anything else. (Pretty sick right?)

An example of that is right here at 2:04-2:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPmbgBp9dQ

Keep your eyes open, it's really fast.

Best thing is, once you get used to it, you can cancel your dash into wave dashes or
dash the other way if they tech other directions.

2) Execution

Cleaning up your kills or positioning. What I mean is that I saw you had an idea of what to do in your head but you didn't perform. It could be due to lack of practice or nerves or just mistakes but try to minimize mistakes and make sure everything is clean, efficient and devastating. Like in your video, 2:37. You wanted to downsmash during the frames he was vulnerable. However you missed and he shielded. You had the idea right, but you didn't execute.

3) Nair OOS

We are blessed with a OOS option that's great! However it's really easy to get hit using it. I suggest using it when you can't grab a dash attack (that's too meaty into the shield) or when their shine pressure sucks (better at high %) . I believe you can nair OOS after a shine and early aerial.However you have to be almost frame perfect. Your nairs oos need to be clean and effective. If not you'll be punished severely for trying to leave your shield. A wrong input can net you 50-death damage from a falco :\.


Anyways this is what I saw but I really like your Sheik. You had good reads on the tech-chases, some gutsy edge guard setups and in general was just solid.

P.s. An after thought, work on getting out of bad shield pressure or spacing situations without getting hurt badly. Use all your tools in the right moments. WD OOS, Wavelanding, Rolls, etc. Sheik's spotdodge sucks lol.

 

[stelzig]

Yeah my techchasing was kinda bad that weekend (doesn't help that I play PAL ) and I indeed don't get to play that often, maybe I should grind exectution/movement a little up to BEAST so I can be more on point.
About the shine thing though, I was trying to focus on waiting/staying out of that range because i'm used to him doing just that, but he did other stuff too this time which confused me. It's something I want to work on too for sure though. I'm still such a scrub against that and even the instant spotdodges.

Yeah I know what Nair oos is (doing it fast without fullhop is hard for me atm though ). And the other stuff too, but I guess I can try and rewatch the set with the things you mentioned in mind

Edit: Metal reaper: It wasn't much, but it's fine to be reminded to throw in some boostgrabs. I should've been more aware of that too

Edit2: And sometimes i'm just <3 that downsmash. This weekend was like that haha.

Edit3: The set against navn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go429gKTnH0

 

[omgwtfToph]

KK.....say my opponent is on a platform shielding. I guess I should just waveland grab/spaced ftilt? I just feel all my aerials are useless on shields considering the platform game. Any tips? I usually try to go for super late nair>jab or dsmash.
@Stelzig I really like your Sheik.
One thing I saw 5:55 you go for 2 dash attacks in a row and both get shielded. Should of grabbed. Sorry im sure this is obvious lol.

When they're on the platform shielding, the goal is not to immediately hit or grab them but to catch them out of whatever they're going to do next. Work from this perspective.

 

[SillyGoose]

Could anyone direct me to general advice on sheik vs ganon? Any sets of KK and Kage playing? I know the match-up is supposed to be free but Trail's ganon is pretty fresh and I can't come out on top