Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[bubbaking]

I thought being on top of Fox was a fairly bad position.....

Chival is right though. Don't do anything ever. If the fox knows everything you can and will do, you're done. Just go eat a sandwich instead.

Yep, if Fox knows everything Sheik can do and simply reacts accordingly, Sheik can't win. You might as well say that instead.

 

[unknown522]

Why would being on top of fox be bad when he's fully committed to something?

Also you would be diagonally in front of him anyway, which is not bad at all

 

[BTmoney]

Here's a pretty simple question (imo).

Is it feasible to AC a fair on shield? Would you fair and not FF or what? Fair at top of shield? I really just don't know.
I normally just go for fairs low to the ground if they are going to be on shield.
I suppose what I'm really asking is, if one can get frame advantage on shield off of a fair.


I feel like fair has the potential of any ridiculous peach aerial.

 

[silentSWAG]

yes yes yes u can do anything u want
ur trying to spacethe fair so it would poke so hiting the tippy top of sheild sounds like a good idea
just make shure ur not in sheild grab range
or space it as far away as possible

 

[ChivalRuse]

Chival is right though. Don't do anything ever. If the fox knows everything you can and will do, you're done. Just go eat a sandwich instead.

What I was trying to articulate (though admittedly not well at all) is that you should always be looking out for players crouch cancelling against you. That will force you to space better and be on the lookout for their patterns out of crouch cancel so you can exploit them. That's all

 

[bubbaking]

Hitting a shield early won't give you more frame advantage though, would it?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Not frame advantage, time to DI. That way you can land safely outside of grab range.

 

[soap]

Ac fair has the added benefit of coming out earlier and hitting higher so it will catch jumpy characters better

Low fairs are still slightly safer on shields and people crouching under your fairs.

 

[BTmoney]

I saw this somewhere but I'll ask anyway, how many frames of shield stun does fair net you?

 

[Tero.]

I saw this somewhere but I'll ask anyway, how many frames of shield stun does fair net you?

F-Air at full power (13%) has 7 frames of shield stun and 8 frames of landing lag.
Frame advantage is at best -1 (when you hit on the lowest possible point).

credit to KK http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309694

 

[soap]

-1 is not bad at all considering you have a 2 frame jab and a plethora of 5 frame moves. One that has invincibility on the first frame.

 

[bubbaking]

Uhhh, what move do we have that gives invincibility on the first frame?

Yes, -1 is extremely good when it comes to frame advantage. Very, very few moves are actually positive on block, so anything close to 0 is incredibly good.

 

[Tero.]

Nair is 0 on block btw

 

[bubbaking]

That's why Sheik's nair is so good on block. I'm going to re-post this here because I think this kind of information is extremely important. I know I'm talking from Samus' perspective but this kind of frame advantage stuff is practically universal.

When looking at frame advantages, there are some important numbers that you should always keep in mind to get a better idea of the big picture. Below are both universal numbers, shared by the entire cast, and numbers specific to certain characters who are quite important in the OoS department, characters you should pay quite close attention to when attacking their shields:

• 1 = Minimum # of frames jumpsquat adds to any JC action being done OoS (upB, usmash, etc).
• 2 = # of frames a shield plat drop takes, so add this to the start-up of whatever aerial the opponent would be using to hit you OoS.
• 3-8 = # of frames jumpsquat takes for every character (ranges from 3 for Fox to 8 for Bowser), so add this to the start-up of whatever aerial the opponent would be using to hit you OoS.
• 5 = Frame on which the hitbox of Samus' upB OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 4 hitbox). The move is invincible for 5 frames after the jumpsquat (frames 2 to 6).
• 6 = Frame on which the hitbox of Bowser's upB OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 5 hitbox). The move is invincible for 4 frames after the jumpsquat (frames 2 to 5).
• 7 = # of frames it takes for most shieldgrabs to come out. In other words, if a move is -7 or worse on shield and you space it poorly, then you can count on getting grabbed.
• 8 = Frame on which the hitbox of Fox's usmash OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 7 hitbox). In other words, if a move is -8 or worse on shield and you space it poorly against Fox, then you can count on being usmashed. This is extremely important to know because our two moves most used for shield pressure, ftilt and utilt, are -17 and -10 on block, respectively. What does this mean? Even though it's safe when spaced, if you decide to be lazy and just use a utilt directly in front of Fox's shield at any damage above 100%, you can just kiss that stock goodbye!
• 10 = # of frames of WL lag, so add this to the total # of jumpsquat frames for whatever character is WDing to acquire the # of frames it takes that character to WD OoS. This information is also very important. For instance, it takes Sheik 20 frames to WD OoS > grab (3 frame jumpsquat + 10 frame WL + 7 frame grab). Likewise, it takes Fox the exact same number of frames to WD usmash OoS (same jumpsquat and his usmash is also 7 frames). This is why, when spaced, Samus' tilts are so safe on shields, despite being so negative frame-wise on paper.

 

[BTmoney]

Nair is 0 on block btw

Yo.


I think I like retreating AC fair on block but that looks promising.

 

[Tero.]

I stole this idea from prog/MIOM

what if we collect all of our informative sheik data into one google document making it the ultimative sheik guide?

I created one to show how it would look like: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mlNwPWxO2y8u_w1t_jf_FzMx6OC8BJyFZ2fW-rOj9zk/edit?usp=sharing

what do you think?

 

[bubbaking]

I think someone's already doing a 'community guide' like that for the Samus boards. Sounds tedious but could possibly pay off.

 

[BTmoney]

Sounds great. Especially for me since sheik is by far my most solid character and I'm getting into the nitty gritty.

 

[Tero.]

I think someone's already doing a 'community guide' like that for the Samus boards. Sounds tedious but could possibly pay off.

it wouldn't be if everybody added just a bit of information
(of course it would take ages to go through 17k KK posts and add like 16,9k of them)

 

[BTmoney]

Wait, someone mentioned a jab that hits on frame two. At a given time during shield pressure from spacies there's usually a few-15 frame gap. Mixing up rising/falling aerials and dairs allow spacies to not get shield grab which grabs on frames 7 and 8.

Is Jab OoS a thing? Spacies can't do anything in 2 frames between attacks

Yeah you can't JC into a jab but does releasing your shield take the same amount of time as a jumpsquat or is it comparable? This is a confusing question I know.
How does nair OoS stand up to shield pressure?

 

[Tero.]

You can't jab during your jumpsquat
the only way to do this would be to wavedash and then jump which should be significantly slower than 15 frames

edit: yeah or just release the shield but that'd be also too slow

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah I editded my post to account for that while you were typing your post. But how soon can you act out of releasing a shield?

 

[Xyzz]

Something above 10. Letting go of shield is only useful for punishing super laggy moves if you're playing a character that has no good OOS options at all (that means Yoshi).

 

[BTmoney]

Be careful saying anything about yoshi, you'll get flamed to death outside these boards.

And I see, jab "OoS" is 12+
Nair OoS frame perfect hits on frame 7 including the jump squat

 

[bubbaking]

Nair OoS is a decent option against shield pressure, especially since a lot of even good Foxes tend to jump into it.

 

[Xyzz]

Yoshi has no oos options. That is simply a fact
And it's not like the flames of random people on the internet would bother me at all (:


edit: ninja'ed lol. Classic Sheik move :D
edit2: oh right nair oos vs Fox... should I hit all nairs on standing Fox? Or am I horribad (which I am at Sheik anyways :D) at hitting 'A' as soon as possible after jumping, if I whiff some occasionally?

 

[Metal Reeper]

u should be fine. Just slide jump to A. I think im gonna start posting here. Sheik is badass

 

[soap]

Uhhh, what move do we have that gives invincibility on the first frame?

Yes, -1 is extremely good when it comes to frame advantage. Very, very few moves are actually positive on block, so anything close to 0 is incredibly good.

dmash at the tips of the feet is invincible frame 5 I believe


Samus actually has a few aerials that are +1 on block right?


And yes, a fresh low sheik nair is 0 on block



Something else I noticed with the nair. A fresh one seems to slightly break fox's crouch cancel at 0. Like he flinches back slightly. But the next one does not even phase him.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, I didn't realize that you meant the "first frame" of her attacking hitbox. Ok, that makes sense now. It's her legs, btw, which makes it even better.

Yes, Samus has two aerials (nair and bair) with +1 frame advantage on shields and she even has one (dair) that is +2. Her other aerials are -3 on shields, IIRC. Remember, though, that Samus also has the LOWEST average landing lag out of any character in Melee. In addition, her aerials must be carefully spaced or timed. Nair has to hit with the strong hit and bair has to be sweetspotted (around her toes) for either of those to be positive on block. Otherwise, they're both -1.

Now, if you want a character with multiple reliable aerials that are positive on block, you should take a look at Peach. I believe her only aerial that's not positive on block after being FC'd is dair, and even her dair is only -1.

 

[ChivalRuse]

All of Samus's aerials are 7 frames when l-cancelled right? I always thought that was pretty ridiculous.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The flaw with ultimate Samus shield pressure off aerials is that Samus has to jump to use her aerials

 

[Metal Reeper]

How good/reliable is the Amsah fair thing?
AKA auto cancel fair? I hear of it but I don't remember seeing anyone using its usage.
English.

 

[silentSWAG]

as long as ur di-ing the fair away it is a safe thing to do
wd back - "amsah fair"

 

[soap]

Why not just watch an Amsah match to see how he uses it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqa3sLpPaJE

watch at 2:24 how he misses and just dashes back away from the counter attack

if you did a low L-canceled fair you have a few more frames of lag before you can dash back like that

Also I disagree with fading it back always. You can do it moving forward and fastfalled at a medium range and have safe pressure on shield by following with a move or dash

 

[bubbaking]

All of Samus's aerials are 7 frames when l-cancelled right? I always thought that was pretty ridiculous.

Yes.

The flaw with ultimate Samus shield pressure off aerials is that Samus has to jump to use her aerials

The absolute ****in' truth! We have the frames, but our feet are stuck to the ground.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You could always just waveland onto platforms and drop down with aerials so you don't have to spend time as much time jumping UP.

 

[Purpletuce]

Something above 10. Letting go of shield is only useful for punishing super laggy moves if you're playing a character that has no good OOS options at all (that means Yoshi).

Yoshi has no oos options. That is simply a fact
And it's not like the flames of random people on the internet would bother me at all (:


edit: ninja'ed lol. Classic Sheik move :D
edit2: oh right nair oos vs Fox... should I hit all nairs on standing Fox? Or am I horribad (which I am at Sheik anyways :D) at hitting 'A' as soon as possible after jumping, if I whiff some occasionally?

Yoshi has several options out of shield, they just don't start with a jump, so you don't recognize them.

Yoshi can release his shield -> D-smash/jab/N-air/B-air/F-tilt on laggy moves like gannon stomp or getup attacks

he can release shield -> run away on anything that takes a while, which is helped by his lack of hitstun (all of you frame advantages are for non-yoshi characters, Yoshi can get hit by any of shiek's moves -> shield drop -> U-air.)

Yoshi can shield drop -> waveland /rising N-air /U-air(you can platform cancel it too)/ Yoshi Bomb/ Egg roll/ Egg Toss etc

Yoshi can use his lightshield (best in game)

Yoshi can also use the obvious roll/dodge/grab (rolling can be done -> parry as well, which is nice)

 

[bubbaking]

Those are pretty crappy OoS options, lolz.

@Chival: Yes, we can, and that's what many Sami do to kind of 'work around' the problem our floatiness creates. The problem is that this strategy puts you on a platform above your opponent, a position that Samus hates more than most other characters. If something traps us up there, it's really bad. It's just better to stay grounded against chars like Marth, Sheik, and Falcon. Other chars, like Peach and Jiggs, can't really do too much about it, at least in my experience, so it's easier to use that kind of plat strat, but in most cases, it needs to be used sparingly, not really enough to create the "ultimate Samus shield pressure" that KK jokingly mentioned.

There's another problem with Samus' aerial pressure. AFTER we hit your shield, what are we gonna do to keep up the pressure? We have jab and tilts, but we can't keep aerialing your shield. Our tilts are more one-time things (they're safe, but their start-ups keep them from being able to be used repeatedly), so our jab is the only thing that can constantly apply 'tight' pressure. The bottom line is that positive frame advantage on shields is really nice (and extremely rare in Smash), but Samus is really just the wrong character for it to be on. Actually, that's not right. Having safe moves like that is what Samus is all about, but she's not the type of character who can use that safety to continue pressure. If you're looking for a character who can use that kind of positive frame advantage in an offensive manner, then you're looking for Peach through and through. Funnily enough, for all intents and purposes, Peach is kind of a 'Samus 2.0' in a LOT of aspects.

To be fair, if a non-floaty char had that kind of frame advantage on shields, he would be pretty broken. I'm starting to feel that Sakurai actually intended to design some of the finer things about this game the way he did, things like advantage and stuff.

 

[stelzig]

u should be fine. Just slide jump to A. I think im gonna start posting here. Sheik is badass

Not that simple to me. If I slide, then I hit A too soon and it won't aerial at all (or if Oos i'll grab.). SH Nair oos is definitely what I struggle with the most.

 

[soap]

Not that simple to me. If I slide, then I hit A too soon and it won't aerial at all (or if Oos i'll grab.). SH Nair oos is definitely what I struggle with the most.

I use Y and A, but I don't slide. Just tap quickly. Learn the timing.

I know of many that use Y and Z, but it is an awkward button for me to use in that situation.



Also;
Samus has plenty of decent safe options after aerials. jabs/ftilts/utilts, rising dairs faded away, bombs, I've seen bombs into missile, and mix in some grabs.