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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
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Houston, Texas
I agree with unknown. DL64's platforms and blast zones do not help Doc. Also learn how to jab/tilt/charged needle away fireballs/pills and actually if you are serious, try to learn how to powershield them as well. Mix up how you get rid of them safely, sitting in your shield is often the worst choice. If he fireballs and then follows it in, getting rid of the fireball with something that clanks then WD back puts you in a very, very good position.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
In regards to Doc...

I like Battlefield. I pick it vs almost everyone because I love it. Dreamland is probably more strategically sound 'cuz of the camping room. I think PS and YS are his best stages vs her but it doesn't really matter much since she wins the MU everywhere. FD is just a really skewed version of the MU in that his punishment is buffed somewhat substantially but Sheik's wall is too and her juggles improve in really abusive ways.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Ok, so, basically, what I said + bait the upB after downthrow (happens ALL the time with him) + go on DL preferably or BF ( I like the idea of BF cause it's the stage I'm the most comfortable with ).

Thank you guyz for all your advices, and if someone thinks about something else, don't hesitate to share it :)
oh yeah, u-tilt is mad broke

:phone:
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
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Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Another question : I see KK and M2K tryin to go on BF and YS, is it a MU pick or a personal preference ?
Well I always thought that YS was Sheik's best stage (not regarding her opponent) hands down, but I guess it's that way for a bunch of characters. I never really think too much about stages when fighting Mario. I just avoid FD like the plague because I always seem to get messed up by more of Mario's tricks there, but that's probably just me... I really just don't like FD in general against most chars that aren't Jiggs. :ohwell:
 

TaFoKiNtS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,027
On Sheik vs. Doc


A great example of how to play the matchup is M2k vs Shroomed at GSG from a while back. Doctor Mario cannot do anything against a needle camping sheik on Dreamland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-NlbzemgT0

Approaching the matchup.

Pretend you are playing a faster version of peach. From 0-40%, Fairs, Bairs, grabs, needles. Everything else will be CC'd and you will get owned. Getting Doc cornered if you are playing aggresively is also really good. If doc wants to approach without risk, he has to pill. You can catch him if he tries to jump --> pill and get underneath him.

Also, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, stop trying to shield grab doc. This was over's folly. As someone mentioned previously, the perfect ground spacing is roughly the distance of a tipped f-tilt. In this range you're golden, Doc cannot do anything, where as you can spam ftilt/fair on his shield and force him to make a risky decision (U-smash OOS, Roll).

D-smashing is also pretty good in this matchup tbh. I'll explain the uses eventually.

I feel that KK should be able to win on a better day.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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I beat Shroomed all our friendlies and won at Rule 6 (both the tourney set and the pride set at PPU's house). I think I could win on a better day and I'm probably the favourite in a general sense but Shroomed played great so kudos to him. He clearly had the fire.

Fire doesn't work vs M2K's cold, rigid abuse of character advantage though.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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I think Sheik's standard game of run-stop offense & defensive movement into counterattacks or repositioning is fine vs Doc but the top platforms of DL64 and BF do kind of invalidate his character's entire existence if you decide to gay it up with a space animal (and to a lesser degree Sheik) so yeah. M2K will always be more consistent than me vs bad characters because of his willingness to play to completely shut the opposing character down in a non-interactive manner.

Camping under platforms is pretty OP because Doc is footsie and the platform gives you a lot of stuff to work with vs pills and his general ground game. Just don't run into a bazillion down smashes or f-tilts like me and focus more on grabbing him than tilting him when he's grounded because cohesive ground character crouch powers. Needle grab is powerful, especially when he crouches for your jump in fair (or running crouches for it to ruin spacing) but everyone forgets to do it (even me).

Pikachu is easy. You just have to care and do gay grab combos. Axe and I never have good matches in that MU though. It's either crews when I don't give a sht because it's a stupid event or it's like his first match of the day or something. He did fight hard for that donut though.
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
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Houston, Texas
You were definitely off compared to him being on in y'alls set from Apex. I'm sure you already know what the issues were. Was fairly surprised he beat you (and WB I heard?) but good **** on him.

Bubba: YS is a stage where Doc can comfortably utilize every aspect the stage has to offer in the MU. He can get around fine, he doesn't mind the blastzones really, the slope can help him. It isn't always the best pick for Doc but he shouldn't feel bad there except in a few small specifics, like Jiggs.
 

bubbaking

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@Gea: I understand that, but this whole time I thought were just talking about Mario, 'cause that was the original topic of BSeed's question. Still, I see what you're saying. I actually treat my stage choices differently between the two Marios, but YS is probably still a fairly good stage for Mario.
 

KirbyKaze

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You were definitely off compared to him being on in y'alls set from Apex. I'm sure you already know what the issues were. Was fairly surprised he beat you (and WB I heard?) but good **** on him.
I was off basically all of APEX but I don't really think it matters. Part of competing is playing on your bad days. I was playing bad in terms of technique and execution at Rule 6 and got 2nd there.

I mean, I could john but it wouldn't accomplish anything. I've already lost the set. I can consider what I can do to prevent myself from having an off day though and how to play around ground characters like Doc a bit better. I definitely know I had some bad habits that set for a few reasons that should be fixed.

Oh, and minor correction. Shroomed vs me was LB. I lost to Armada in WB.




I guess I can give why I think PS and YS are good for Doc too.

PS is a CG level like FD except you can get earlier kills with fair and the stage limits Sheik's air game in a bizarre way because of the platform arrangement. In ground vs ground I feel Doc does better than when Sheik has so many air options or if he's simply forced to use his air game because range = anti-airs in Melee. The level also lacks a top platform, which is generally good for Doc since his aerials are piss weak.

YS is just a random level with a decent middle for CGing. Randomness generally favours the character with the less solid strategy and the close blast zones give some meat to Doc's higher KB KO moves. Sheik can't really camp the level that effectively either because the platform arrangement affords some decent trapping if you can uair through her combo break moves with some consistency.
 

soap

Smash Hero
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against shroomed he was repeatedly sidestepping your low fairs into pokes

I would space slightly closer, use the autocancel, then just grab or dsmash him when you land before he can do anything out of the sidestep


Every doc I've played likes to sidestep my aerials and that is what I do.

Sometimes I see them crouching from a like a year away and you just drop a needle. Or if they shield I like the fastfall nair frame traps too.



You weren't playing that badly against shroomed, you were just losing like every ground exchange when you actually had decent spacing on him
 

KirbyKaze

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I feel with better control over Sheik I can counter sidesteps and things without modifying my strat (SH > react) since fair ACs and the height enables a huge reaction window. I just don't think I was flexible enough but I don't really want to john out here on SWF. I'd prefer if people contacted me on AIM or FB about those sets since I don't really feel like discussing them here for a variety of reasons. If I'm gonna john I'd rather do it privately in confidence :p
 

Gea

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@Gea: I understand that, but this whole time I thought were just talking about Mario, 'cause that was the original topic of BSeed's question. Still, I see what you're saying. I actually treat my stage choices differently between the two Marios, but YS is probably still a fairly good stage for Mario.
It pretty much works similarly for Mario except his off the top stuff is going to be usmash OoS. Wall gives him a very slightly enhanced recovery, he can't kill that well so DL still applies. My bad switching characters on you, though.

And yeah KK no johns and all that stuff. Just saying you were off your game because usually you handle the trade/CC game a bit smoother than I saw.
 

KirbyKaze

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PS grab and needles to disrupt rhythm are strong too. There isn't a perfect 100% always works answer though - it is a great, versatile move that improves with skill.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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You can dash under high ones, I believe. You can crouch under all of them except the low ones, I think. Sheik has a pretty low WD, so use that to your advantage. Same goes for her DA. Sheik has good plat mobility, so use it when applicable. You can jump over lasers and aerial to start pressure, but I don't think good Falcos will keep lasering when they see you go in the air like that. Use lasers, both on the ground and in the air. Mix it up. Yeah, that's all I can really say.

I have problems with this too, mostly 'cause even when I get around the lasers, the Falco is simply too good in CQC and makes a really solid defense or just messes me up. Falco is stupid.
 

garrR

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
123
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Austin, TX
ya that was a pretty epic choke game 1 :embarrass:

don't sweat it tho I have done the same thing before in tourney. You came back nicely game 2, then kinda just fell apart game 3.


Overall you have all the fundamentals down you are just very sloppy. Game 1 you had bad spacing and kept letting him jump on top of you off the side platforms. Either go under his platform or space away under the other one. Don't short hop too far away from him. Leaves you wide open for his dash attacks or whatever he wants really.

You tech chase regrab fairly well, but I would suggest switching to a combo starter around 50-60 such as a dash attack/running ftilt, maybe a dair or usmash for in place techs if you are comfortable with those. Regrabbing continously is very difficult and will not get them offstage either. Even if they crouch cancel your launchers I find it easy to follow up off a knockdown with another launcher than to regrab.

You had some nice edgeguards but you botch quite a few too. When in doubt get to the ledge and bair.

In general some nice movement I'm seeing, and good color choice ;)
thanks for the feedback. yeah, i definitely need to start dash attacking off higher % tech chases.

i tend to short hop backwards a lot in the middle of to stage to try to catch him with a retreating fair as he's coming at me, but i think i tend to overdo it also try to do it way too far from him. landing on lasers is pretty bad :(

if anyone else can give me some feedback, it'd be much appreciated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5bjndpB6B0
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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College Park, MD
@ garrR:

I went through game one and came up with a few things to take note of.

Game 1 -
0:01 Why would you willingly put yourself underneath Falco? Unless you have a plan for dair or know you can react to it, don’t put yourself in that situation, especially in the air.

0:03-0:07 I’m fine with your platform and spacing choices here. A lot of safe movement, which is good.

0:08 Okay I have a problem with this. Falco is on a platform, which means his options for getting back to the ground are pretty limited. You should be immediately capitalizing on his disadvantage, but instead you fail to react to his SH down from the platform and get nailed with it into a combo. Fortunately for you, he doesn’t get much damage from it.

0:10 You probably had time to shield grab. Most of the time if you have time to shield on a platform, you should mash shield grab if they land in front of you. Reason for this is that it’s harder to shield pressure on platforms, so the reward is high while the risk is low. But the Falco just opts to f-smash, putting you below him, which is good for you.

0:12 I’m okay with the SH bair through the platform. Your spacing is a little far away from your target. I don’t know if you were just playing really safe or if you thought he’d try to run off the left side of the platform. In any case, this play is conservative but acceptable.
0:13 You catch him in the air with a nicely placed fair into grab. It’s good that you’re looking for and reacting to his jumps.
0:16 You whiff a fast fallen fair and get punished by dash attack. The reason you whiff is because you’re looking for him to move into you. Try to be more aware of the possibility that Falco can be patient and doesn’t have to constantly attack.

0:22 Should have fallen through the platform with bair. I don’t know why you elected to go with fair.
0:31 Perfect opportunity to ledge hop fair. Instead you do the slow over 100% stand up animation from the ledge. And of course you get sent back offstage for your trouble.

0:38 Instead of wavedashing out of shield into shield again, you could have wavedashed into f-tilt and caught him on the edge of the platform.
0:45 Why would you waveland onto a platform?? Stay under it and punish Falco for jumping above you!
0:49 Okay you finally punished him for throwing out stupid dairs. That’s critical that you react to him and don’t let him get away with dairing from obvious angles.
0:56 You d-tilt, he misses tech, and you don’t d-smash??? Always react to missed techs with something. Dash attack … even up-smash can be used to punish missed techs…
1:01 Good nair out of shield. But then you jump onto the platform again and forfeit any advantage that you had in that situation. Stop wasting your stage control with stunts like that!
1:06 Okay, here I would actually recommend wavelanding onto the platform. The reason is because you already have the momentum from running forward and short hopping. If he doesn’t roll in, his only real options are getup attack and stand up. Both can be reacted to with drop through fair, spaced if necessary. Again, the reason why I recommend using a platform in this situation is because it puts you in a good position to cover pretty much all of his options. An alternative would be to SH and DI back so that you land outside of the getup attack range to set yourself up to punish his wakeup options.
1:08 You miss another waveland... At this point I’m almost convinced that you’re just wavelanding onto platforms when you get a chance to practice them or show off. This isn’t a mistake you can afford to make in tournament.
1:13 At that laser distance, it would be reasonable for you to try SH nair out of shield.
1:15 Another basically pointless waveland onto platform that gets you punished. Starting to look like a really bad habit.
1:18 God only knows why you would ever roll into Falco.
1:27 Falco air dodges onto the top platform, and you don’t even attempt to punish it …
1:30 I can’t really fault you for going for a grab there. But I just want to point out that you’re at a great range to continue poking shield with f-tilt.
1:38 Pretty good edgeguard.
1:47 Try run off fair to f-tilt instead.
1:49 Good anticipation of his approach. Netted you a grab and tech chase.
2:04 Don’t jab at that percent… It doesn’t really get you anything and it’s easily crouch cancelled. Try up-smash or dash attack.
2:07 Sh needles are definitely superior to full jump needles in that situation. You got the kill anyway, but the angle of SH needles would have been way better.
2:13 You fake yourself out, running one way then back into the zone where Falco can reach you from.
2:17 Again you don’t seem fully aware of Falco’s options from a platform. Run off dair is hardly ever adopted as a viable option, because it doesn’t cover as much real estate as running SH dair off the platform. Try to put yourself in the shoes of your opponent to help you predict things like this.
2:23 You landed on that laser because you fast fell. You don’t always have to fast fall. Floating aerials is a useful tool as well.
2:25 You could easily have punished that f-smash. Gotta jump cancel those grabs, bro!
2:27 Why didn’t you ledgehop fair? You had plenty of time to react to his missed f-smash. Know when your chances to land free hits are!
2:35 Nothing wrong with rolling to the left to escape that situation. Rolling is sometimes the best option.
2:44 Don’t waste frames of invincibility doing aerials when Falco is nowhere near getting hit. Get in Falco’s face and react to what he does. Instead of throwing that needle, fair and jab, you could have walked up to Falco and punished his airdodge without breaking a sweat. Instead, you got caught in some other routine that prevented you from getting anything out of your invincibility.
2:48 Don’t wavedash when running would be faster.
2:49 You didn’t space your fair properly and got shield grabbed.
2:54 Don’t full jump fair when you have him stuck in shield. Instead, it would be better to poke at him with SH bairs from below the platform.
3:16 Good job baiting the shield grab, but why did you try to waveland onto the platform to tech chase when he’s at 77%. A simple fair tech chase from below would get the job done.
3:21 He dash attacked your shield. Nair out of shield!
3:37 *Face palm*. With him up-bing so close to the stage you could have faired him, DI’ed left and landed back on the stage then fast fallen under him and double jump faired to end the game. Sorry, I know you are aware of your mistakes here and are probably kicking yourself. But I do feel the need to break down some of these things methodically to make them clearer.
 

KirbyKaze

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You recycle too many SH / WL off plat initiations. You do them even when they're not really appropriate. Falo can still be f-tilted or DD grabbed. You could also shield > WD / SH more (or even crouch lasers). I feel you're going to the SH or platform as a first resort vs lasers but a large amount of the power SHing over lasers has is its ability to modify how Falco's shooting to accommodate your SH height; this enables dashing under high lasers and other crap like that a lot more viability.

Don't guess your tech chase with regrab. If you're going to guess, do it with u-smash or something that gives you a substantial punish for hitting it. At high percents, f-tilt the tech stand and dash attack the rolls. You aren't efficient. I'm not sure you were guessing 'cuz of one sequence you hit. If you're not guessing, just keep working on it I guess. You could probably try to outspace the shine wakeup a bit more often though. The extra effort expands the window by 2 frames or so, which can be really worth it when you figure you're dealing with frame-specific timings anyway.

In general you just jump onto platforms into waveland or whatever when there's no real reason to do so. Or you just fair coming off it, even when he's already crossed up or whatever. At that point the WL itself isn't bad, but how you exit the platform is. Pay more attention to the opponent's positioning so you don't misstep like that. And break other automatic habits like that. You also have a tendency to overestimate your SH forward > wait > fair distance. You barely missed him a lot. The whole point of SH > wait > action is that during her SH you get this nice reaction window to work with vs basically anything but really aggressive plays by them. So don't feel obligated to commit to the fair if it's clear it won't work. Beating Falco is all about little advantages you build up. Taking more stage so he can't move back as much, making him shoot bad lasers, getting close enough so laser isn't safe, being just far enough so laser > SHFFL aerial approach doesn't work, and so forth.
 

john!

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You recycle too many SH / WL off plat initiations. You do them even when they're not really appropriate. Falo can still be f-tilted or DD grabbed. You could also shield > WD / SH more (or even crouch lasers). I feel you're going to the SH or platform as a first resort vs lasers but a large amount of the power SHing over lasers has is its ability to modify how Falco's shooting to accommodate your SH height; this enables dashing under high lasers and other crap like that a lot more viability.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falo

was that a freudian slip KK?
 

SK919

Deal with it
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Mar 18, 2008
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Crouch cancelling

I just started using sheikh in my efforts to dual main falco and sheik. I have encountered the first issue of sheik.. crouch cancelling!!

How do you guys deal with crouch canceling in general? I know it's probably all match up related but if you could summerrize what tools to use in situations where people are likely to crouch cancel. It would help me out tons!

Also, I'd like to pick everyone's brains. When you guys are moving around with shiek in general what type of steps do you take? What do you think about while advancing and retreating as shield with her strange dashes. (Her movement is weird to me).

Thanks!

oh and shout outs to silent swag
 

soap

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o jeez lol I was thinking of picking up falco just because I am so sick of working around crouch cancels

basically you have to space your aerials and hit them low, then get out of range of a punish by jumping/dashing away. Needles also negate crouch cancels somewhat. Alternatively, just look for grabs.


You do not have any aerial > shine anymore so you have to pay attention to percents a bit more
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Spiral Mountain
Falling air needle > grab and grab

Or rack some percent with needles if you only need a bit of percent to enable your ground game or some other significant thing, or have a full set at the ready, or they're a slow character, or they're hyper defensive and enable free charging easily.

Platform play with fall-to-platform (FTP) needle > run off fair and its ilk is reasonable vs some characters.

Spaced aerials are decent too.

:phone:
 

NewJerusalem

Smash Apprentice
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New York City
Space your aerials especially F-air. Nothing is more guaranteed to work against CCing than a well spaced F-Air. Not even Samus can hit you if you do it right. Remember to L-Cancel correctly too.


Once you reach certain percents you won't have to worry too much about retaliation.


Fair > Jab might work depends on percentage. They might just CC both moves.

Fair > Fair > Fair. If they don't know when to stop CCing.

Fair > FoxTrot/DashDance beats a lot of CC retaliation you can also dash away.

Grab beats CC but it's dangerous if you whiff or something of the like.
 

silentSWAG

Smash Lord
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idk wtf all yall talkin bout, but ill catch up

for now i know how good needles are
if you shoot a fully charged needles they will last for some time... dunno exactly
but if you go to the where the needles are in the ground and you get them to attack your sheild
the needles will give them more lag and shield grab is free

just an idea if your controlling space you can bait them to the needles
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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Fast fallen aerial to shield beats CC depending on %. Edit (assuming they aren't CC grabbing)

Also, wavelanding away instead of actually coming down with an aerial often tricks people into doing whatever move they would have done after a CC anyway. Then you get a free punish.

And what everyone else said.
 

silentSWAG

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well that is probably valid for some scruby people
but people who cc right will not fall for that trick (mainly because committing to that would only happen if something caused a reaction)
for an example you can hit me - i cc and i dash away/ sh away (waiting)
waiting for that opening that will happen if my position is right
 

BSeeD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Messages
281
So I wanted to thank yall Sheik boards for helping me with my Mario MU problem.

I played Teams this week end against this Mario guy and even though they beat us in pools, we managed to **** them back in LS.

I'm starting to realise the power of Bair, this move is awesome.
I wasn't very comfortable about turning my back to my opponent, but I clearly see the point of practicing it now :)

I also learned camping can be fun while done smartly :p

So, long story short, managed to get 5th in single and 2nd in teams.

I'm gonna upload tournament videos tonight on LeFrenchMelee Youtube account, if u guyz can give me advices that would be nice.
 

Sweet™

Smash Famous @PennStateSweet #SweetNation
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Jeeeesus.
What did they put in your Wheaties before you played?

Nice job. Your off stage game, and your short game with your needling are great, the only things I would recommend is better placement of yourself and have better move choices. when you backthrow the spacie off (or just getting them offstage in general, and just be a little smarter with your recoveries.

When you Up+B'd on the stage, he got a free f-smash (usually leading up to a kill) quite often.

Other than that, you did just fine. I really enjoyed watching that. :)
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
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May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
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San Jose
I would like to say that I had a revelation and I can now do SH fastfall low nair (i.e. fastfall before nair) consistently now.
 
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