Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[omgwtfToph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4euAoACfxZ4 lol

 

[Jolteon]

More specifically, about 26 mins in to the video.

 

[soap]

it's not free, u just gotta use your mobility and speed. Just wait for a fair and dtilt under, or jump over the jab.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Is there any notable sdi/di used against sheik? I know at high percents tilt combos can be avoided and sometimes as roy/pika You can make chain throws harder.

Or marth can avoid being chain thrown at 0%.

Playing falcon against sheik/falco You might as well drop the controller sometimes but at least sdi helps vs falco to avoid shine sometimes.

Also dummies(the puppets) are scary if unmanned.

 

[Jay P.]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere else on the forum, but i've been having problems with it lately.
I recently started to main shiek, and have trouble effectively dealing with people who like to role around a lot. How do I deal with this problem?

 

[SillyGoose]

Just wait for their roll and do whatever (grab). If you have trouble timing that, dash attack might be easier.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I basically dash dance grab Ganon's anything (but especially aerials), stuff his approaching aerials with my own, and shoot needles / encroach on his territory from the ground if he plays constant retreat. Shield is excellent against him. Don't get grabbed. Beware of the pullback on his sideB and downB. Easy match.

If you can't death CG either learn it or don't try it. Pick one

 

[Jay P.]

Thanks for the responses!
Furthermore, I've also had trouble incorporating Dash Dancing and WD'ing into my games (I can do both on demand, just never see relevant timings for them).
Is there a forum that elaborates a bit on this? Or some good replays maybe?

Thanks, and sorry if this was posted on another thread that I missed :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think I made a post about what options each form of movement makes available. In the social thread maybe? Either way, dash is good because you can always dash, jump, shield, grab, or dash attack. The action window is constant, though options are restricted. Wavedash allows access to any move but at the cost of a 10+ frame startup.

 

[Kaffei]

Could anyone direct me to general advice on sheik vs ganon? Any sets of KK and Kage playing? I know the match-up is supposed to be free but Trail's ganon is pretty fresh and I can't come out on top

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhKoRANP82M

 

[Xyzz]

I think I made a post about what options each form of movement makes available. In the social thread maybe?

You did in this very thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-320#post-15360853

 

[Jay P.]

Sorry, another kinda noobish question :/
How do you guys deal with foxs that simply spam dash attacks and forward smashes?
I really want to improve but my friends have a tendency to just use one or two attacks repeatedly....
Thanks again.

 

[Jolteon]

you can punish both of those options with cc grab, shield, or by simply moving out of the way.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I don't think I've ever been forced to deal with a Fox that spams forward smash and dash attack. Frankly it might be impossible.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Wd back and ftilt dsmash grab.
You are obviously not shoelding enough

 

[Somaiah]

Fsmash can easily be shield-grabbed during the move, and the dash attack can be punished out of shield too. Shielding is huge, like Reeper said, and you can really punish them with a wavedash>grab, a nair, or anything really. If you see them approaching, wavedash back, and shield. If they never mindgame you and always attack when they approach, it will create space and leave you in a safe defensive position to react.

 

[Metal Reeper]

The only reason you lose is because you messed up your spacing. Remember that.
Yolo Swag
EDIT: Stop worrying about losing and just try things. Also take note of what they do in basic situations.
They are on the ledge, they go for a ledgehop dair. I wouldn't be surprised if they did this more than once.
They shield, then waveland. Etc etc.
Metagame.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Hey guys...finally got some sets recorded although not as many are up yet as I'd like. Looking for some critiques though on what is up. Just the first game vs kzhu's peach, and games 1 and 2 vs his fox. I have much more fox experience than peach, but I still feel it's one of my worst matchups.

Things I know - Don't shieldgrab. All f-smashes are mistakes. and don't d-smash as often.

Game 1 me vs Kzhu's peach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Svw1cGYxHc#t=0m29s

Games 1 and 2 vs his fox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Svw1cGYxHc#t=11m39s

Thanks to anyone who helps. It is appreciated.

 

[stelzig]

DI peach's dsmash so you get hit twice when she tries to edgeguard you with that ****. I might take a closer look tommorow, i'm a bit too tired to really pay attention right now.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Thanks. That's one of the few things I do know about the peach matchup but consistently don't do. I always hold down too long. Just need more practice/experience.

Looking forward to it if you get the time.

 

[stelzig]

I DI down and away and roll it a bit up to DI up and in on the next hit. Don't know if that makes a difference to you at all, but anyway

 

[SillyGoose]

Someone mind talking for a bit about what sheik wants to be doing in the ditto with a grab / against a grab (no chaingrabs)? Is there any faq or something about this?

edit: found the match-up guide

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach on ground:

Grab and movement. At a distance, throw needles to coax them into the air. Charging needles when you're the same level as her is strong because you can unload on her if she tries to turnip, which forces her to float without one (often at so-so positioning), shield (accomplishes her little), etc. Fair and bair are also good options to use on her when she's grounded, but beware of her counterattacks; I wouldn't bother with those until she's past 30% or so.

If she's engaging you, remember that after she does low-float anything she can instantly follow it up with a dash attack. This is an ancient Peach trick for pretending she has more range with a ground approach sequence than she actually does. You can combat this in a variety of ways, the two main ones being by either by being stronger at maintaining the distance you place between the two of you or by using an action that counters her dash attack (shield, jump). Her dash attack also has a very specific placement in relation to her body, and startup so you can sometimes attack her and hit her out of it but I find evasion and spacing are stronger plays against it. You have the luxury of an automatic, reliable punish on her that's good at every percent on it that works out of shield (d-throw) so it's very discouraging for her to get punished for doing it vs you. She can't afford to give you those grabs.

Peach in air:

Bair and fair are strong against her. There are kind of like... two float distances that exist for Sheik vs Peach in terms of combat. There's a far one, where she's staying outside your immediate dash > SH aerial range and the spacing where she's inside it. We'll call the former "far float spacing" and the latter "close float spacing".

Far float spacing: She's going to try and position her float so that she can go around your fair (since it swings downwards) and then come on top of you with her own fair. If Peach is doing this correctly, she's gonna wait until you begin descending and pass a certain threshold to drop her float and swing. Because you cannot approach with bair very far (short of doing something fancy like dash > pivot > SH back > bair, which has a longish startup), this kind of strategy is pretty strong because it's hard to engage directly. Platform WL into fair is decent, and body-checking her with something ballsy like approaching nair can work (but make sure the perent is right so she doesn't just take a damage trade). Walking is also decent; you can often scare her into retreating (and therefore giving up real estate - if you can force her out of the middle, Peach loses a lot of her offense 'cuz she loses the box) or simply compromise her defensive spacing, enabling you to challenge her float with your normal stuff.

Close float spacing: She's a bit more likely to be kind of random in this position, since she doesn't have the time to start her fair safely. Her bair is a decent poke so she may also be trying to start or maintain offense on you. If she's using stuff like nair and bair, you really can just evade push her if she's trying to force approaches. You can also angle f-tilt and beat her nair straight up from a lot of angles. Otherwise, bair is pretty godlike vs low range moves. Fair can also work, but the timing of it through her low range moves is a bit trickier than bair if only because it swings down and it's not a sex kick. If she's trying to use fair, then just stuff it in any manner you can. You're at advantage here.

Combos are just typical fare vs a floaty with low range. Treat it like you would vs Luigi or Samus but remember that she can float so she's got an extra relevant option in exchange for an awful double jump. You're trying to keep her from going out of your reach if you're pushing her offstage - hobble her and send her off low. I personally like uair juggles and combos but they're only really good at low percent. If you can't link off your tilt, hold control and exhaust her combo break options. Don't forfeit your ability to threaten her, or else it actually does feel like you don't hit her hard enough.

The chain grab from 0-20% if she DIs hard away requires some timing so you may have to do jank if you don't bother to learn the fast dash JC grab.

 

[Kaffei]

Hi KK

I am bad and suck vs Marth. Do you have any movement specific advice or otherwise comments on the match up? I have the grab combos down, I think it's just the neutral game that irks me.

 

[Metal Reeper]

In that mu I like to annoy him with needles. If he tries to sh fair you can just crouch it. He wants to grab you so space ftilt. Dtilt is best in this mu. You want to always be under him. When in neutral watch out for his dash attack. His dtilt can also hurt. If he isnt grabbing that much and spacing you out. Run in and shield. If u get a chance to byhrow off stage do it and wd to the ledge. It covers alot of oprions

EDIT: New video of my Sheik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxmEEnZ3DVI&list=UUbKz0KE3_mRcSEW0ScI6_Dw&index=4

 

[omgwtfToph]

You need to not do unsafe nairs onto falco's shield like that. >_>

 

[Metal Reeper]

Yeah...thanks for the hint lol. My friend's not the best.

 

[Jay P.]

Hey!
So I am trying to improve my DI/ SDI... is there any way to practice it with just a computer?
What kinds of things do you focus on, etc?

 

[BTmoney]

Peach stuff.

I am quoting this so you get a notification because I am selfish lol.
Could you point me to a set where you feel like you were playing especially well against Falco and or Peach (of equal or higher skill)?

 

[Ministry]

I think i can read Davids Mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvYK8dz_1R4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoOHIjwq6IA

 

[KirbyKaze]

I am quoting this so you get a notification because I am selfish lol.
Could you point me to a set where you feel like you were playing especially well against Falco and or Peach (of equal or higher skill)?

I usually feel like I'm playing on point vs Mango, but I think he's just better than me overall. I don't recommend my set vs Westballz despite the attention it gets - I felt like I was the stronger player rather clearly at the time (no offense - West got a lot better since then) and other than some specific anti-pressure things, I don't really feel I did anything interesting or good in it.

My sets vs PP are ancient but they demonstrate some good stuff for Sheik vs Falco. Some of it is sadly outdated and I was lucky at some critical moments. I especially recommend the matches on Pokemon Stadium, Rainbow Cruise, and Battlefield. The YS matches were janky but jank is often a big factor so take that as you will.

Also, henceforth I'm adopting FGC methods of direction. I'm going to be using the number pad to refer to directional inputs, especially regarding DI, WD angles, Firefox angles, etc. I think this is a stronger system than the one we currently use and should communicate directions much better than what we currently use (away, behind, slightly behind, up and behind, etc). As a fun exercise, can you spot which input is often redundant in the previously mentioned DI inputs when referring to d-throw chain grabs? Also, we then have an input for neutral DI that follows a system and doesn't sound ******** - I call it, "5".

Anyway, onto more Sheik. To be frank, the Marth matchup is just how good you are at handling his dash dance into grab and how you manage your defensive options when you're caught in his juggles. Provided you don't get juggled from 20-100%+ on a single toss, your combos tend to outpace his if you understand roughly when it's appropriate to push him with your combo versus when it's okay to juggle him and keep him in the air. If they know to DI between 8-9, you have to be good at dash SH uair or accept your f-tilt / dash SH nair / fair into whatever those procure at that percent. Sometimes nair can link into jank dash attacks, so that can be good. M2K sometimes needles; his set vs PP is a good demo of some of the combo options on 8-9 DI.

The actual dash dance has me a bit stumped so I'll try to make this not sound ridiculous and work with what I know, not what I'm testing. Basically, Marth's dash dance transforms based on whether he can dash cancel or not; this means he kind of has two distances to his running space. Within his dash zone, he then has two more distances - short dash and long dash. The basic gist is that he has 3 major points on his running space in either direction. It might look something like this:

||(1)Run||------||(2)Long Dash||------------------------||(3)Short Dash||-------------------------||Marth||

And, of course, those points exist behind him mirrored. Marth's option pool varies for each of these positions.

Short & long dash -- Shield, Jump, Dash away, Grab, Dash attack, Side-B

Run (dash cancel) -- All of the above minus dash away but you add his normals (namely Down Tilt, Up Tilt, and Forward Smash)

This means that your relevant options change based on where he is (speaking in terms of relative proximity). Sadly, this is where I become less useful because I'm unsure of how to behave in these zones. That said, I can say with some confidence that if you lack a platform to needle cancel onto, jumping is really dangerous if you're far away from him at all because it's really easy for him to get under you with a launcher (since he has access to WD and his dash cancel at that point, enabling his normals [Up Tilt]). For this reason, a lot of people play heavy ground defense until they get closer and then they fish for grabs, grab setups (aerial into grab), or anti-air his aerials. This seems reasonable so far. Still no perfect answer for really solid close-range dash dance, but I'm not sure there is one either. Further research is required.

Working on new ground stuff. Maybe that's the answer. Will report later.

 

[omgwtfToph]

^ Good ass post

 

[Sweet™]

I'm starting to get better at this got damn Fox matchup.

 

[mas_torque]

walking tilt combos are too much fun and wd usmash is a new favorite punish to start air combos

 

[KirbyKaze]

Up smash is decent when people like to fool around in the air within its hit ranges, or as a lag punish. Using it out of WD back, dash away, dash in, after an aerial, or similar is awkward though because it's slow. That said, Armada makes d-tilt work for Peach so who knows.

Side note on up smash... I find it really good on FOD vs spacies if you can hit the sweetspot on a low platform at low percent - if you hit it between like a 0-30% range you can often just death combo off it with a mix of uair, dair, dash attack, u-tilt, etc. into an eventual fair. Which is neat. Knowing when to SH uair versus when to FJ uair is a big part of making the combo go lethal.

I find walking is a really weak form of movement overall. I generally find that it's not flexible or dynamic enough in terms of how much you can influence proximity between your opponent and yourself - I feel you tend to allow them to get whatever positioning is ideal for them (as a player or character) against you because walking is slow and you can't adjust directional momentum easily. For this reason I prefer dash, WD, and even SH. That said, it has its moments. It's a good scare tactic and still opponents don't present an issue of needing to turn around most of the time.

God, I miss Drephen.

 

[mas_torque]

i can get away with it since i body most of the people i play but my friend has decided to start getting better so i'm going to start teaching him ATs although i still need to work on things like shuffling and l cancels in general. but i would use usmash primarily when someone does something really stupid instead of using it as plan A for the match

 

[KirbyKaze]

You should teach him dash dance first.

 

[mas_torque]

for some reason i can't dash dance without hopping around like an idiot. but i will train him well

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're not doing side-side presses, you're slanting it upwards to produce jumps.

 

[V]

Besides Fox and Peach who does Sheik team well with?