omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Kirbykaze, I killed with Sheik's usmash a lot today in in Project: M.
I think I'm a Sheik main in that game.
I think I'm a Sheik main in that game.
-
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Aren't you normally a Sheik main? (O_o)
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
He plays Fox mostly, nublet.
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Nublet? Why don't you come up here and MM me and say that again. I'll cream you with Samus! 
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Of course I'm a Sheik main. But I haven't been able to play as much recently because I've been serving in the Navy.
>_>
>_>
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Yeah, I knew that. I remember you having a discussion with KK about how you were better at the Falcon MU than he was. 
You're in the navy? Stay safe, man!
You're in the navy? Stay safe, man! 
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Toph and Tope are different people.
Toph is a technical Fox main originally from WA known for his cheerfulness, training under waterfalls in Japan, and an unrelenting love of FD as a stage vs Marth with Fox. He has a thing for little artistic pastries. Resides in NorCal at the moment, I believe.
Tope is a Sheik main from MD/VA known for his no-nonsense style and a reputation for beating up Falcons and low tiers with CGs and the infamous "topechase". He had an epic beard at one point, though I admittedly never saw it myself. He's also in the navy.
Toph is a technical Fox main originally from WA known for his cheerfulness, training under waterfalls in Japan, and an unrelenting love of FD as a stage vs Marth with Fox. He has a thing for little artistic pastries. Resides in NorCal at the moment, I believe.
Tope is a Sheik main from MD/VA known for his no-nonsense style and a reputation for beating up Falcons and low tiers with CGs and the infamous "topechase". He had an epic beard at one point, though I admittedly never saw it myself. He's also in the navy.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LOL I've been exposed <_>
Also that is the most succinct and best description of me anyone has ever provided LOL
<3333 artistic pastries
Also that is the most succinct and best description of me anyone has ever provided LOL
<3333 artistic pastries
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
If someone ever writes a smash encyclopedia, I want that person to be you.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Ah, thank you for saving me from my own cluelessness! 
Just watched some Tope videos instead of the usual M2K and KK videos.
I feel like it helped me a lot more for some reason...
I feel like it helped me a lot more for some reason...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Inspiration from other sources can be handy. Tope is good and in a lot of ways easier to understand at a glance because he's a lot more "no nonsense" than M2K and I.
Something about this post seems really silly to me.
I know you didn't mean to insult people but like, I always felt that a lot of players tend to do this.
Find a favorite player, and try to study their play as much as possible and restrict themselves to that.
I never got why. You don't maximize your potential in terms of learning by watching one player play.
Unless you are a top level player yourself watching high level play is a great way to improve especially because the things they do might make more sense to you.
/2cents
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
I would have to disagree with you to a certain extent, teczero. If he truly does not understand what Kk or m2k are doing, then his applications of many things will not have proper fundamental understanding. It's not to say that he won't learn anything from different players but he'll learn at a rapid pace with tope as opposed to other players
Honestly, I'm not even sure what you mean by proper fundamental understanding in your context, its vague from understanding fundamental game mechanics to character specific fundamental understanding both which are important obviously.I would have to disagree with you to a certain extent, teczero. If he truly does not understand what Kk or m2k are doing, then his applications of many things will not have proper fundamental understanding. It's not to say that he won't learn anything from different players but he'll learn at a rapid pace with tope as opposed to other players
What people should learn from top level players are the fundamentals. Things that apply to every character, spacing, movement, etc.
Character specific things are a much more laborious process. Its a lot of trial and error, and copying top players is a pitfall a lot of new players run into. Mainly because, you simply won't just 'pick up' things they do. All you'll understand is the execution, you won't understand the reasoning necessarily.
That's why I also recommend watching other players. Sometimes their play might be a simplified version and more understandable to you.
All I'm saying is don't watch only 2 sheiks. Watch others, especially ones near your skill level. There's a lot of invaluable information you can pick up by watching people near your level.
It also gives a reason for other players to try harder, improve and record themselves. Instead of just being overshadowed as a sheik thats not KK/m2k. Little things like recognition gives a reason for other sheiks to improve.
Well, I mean. I always assumed that to be really good, you have to study the best of the best.
Obviously I wasn't insulting anyone, because I'm pretty sure I would've been upfront about it and actually said an insult.
I haven't been playing that long, so I'm obviously still learning.
I know you're not trying to be a ****, but cut me a little slack.
Obviously I wasn't insulting anyone, because I'm pretty sure I would've been upfront about it and actually said an insult.
I haven't been playing that long, so I'm obviously still learning.
I know you're not trying to be a ****, but cut me a little slack.
Like I said, I realize you weren't insulting anyone.
And I'm sorry I'm calling you out, its not really my intention to blow up your spot. I'm just using your post as an example because its the first one I saw and you are certainly not the only person who does that.
Another reason for my post is that I honestly feel that players aren't getting the recognition they deserve. The main part of that post was trying to help most mid or high level players such as yourself, a secondary part is that I really hope that people can expand their views and give others the respect they earned.
And I'm sorry I'm calling you out, its not really my intention to blow up your spot. I'm just using your post as an example because its the first one I saw and you are certainly not the only person who does that.
Another reason for my post is that I honestly feel that players aren't getting the recognition they deserve. The main part of that post was trying to help most mid or high level players such as yourself, a secondary part is that I really hope that people can expand their views and give others the respect they earned.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
My smashwiki entry - KirbyKaze is a twinky, white, gay Sheik player who popularized tipped u-smash combos. He likes to hug and holds the title of most adorable smasher to this day. He had a fling with Dr. Peepee, but Peepee refuses to comment on the matter in any detail. He has a knack for getting people he's sexually attracted to in tournament (Dope being the most recent), though Ace continues to escape this trend. Likes to say "nurgle" - refuses to disclose its meaning. He remains one of the most knowledgeable smashers as far as raw data goes. Hates very bizarre MUs with Sheik and enjoys spacies & Puff, oddly.
Regarding video watching... don't neglect the other good Sheiks. There's more than me and Jason. For that matter, my Sheik idols when I was first learning her were Drephen, Forward, and Captain Jack. Notice how KDJ isn't there, despite him being the best Sheik of the time (2007 is when I became serious Sheik main). Heck, I likely stole more from Plank than the "best" Sheik (although Plank was really good back then). But yeah... Plank's stuff just made more sense to me so I found it easier to expand upon the strat and modify it to suit me. You won't necessarily learn the most from the best players of a character - I think this is tough for Sheiks anyway given our best players. M2K's style has a huge mindset and technique barrier (most of you don't want to play the level of defense his style & strats require) and mine is really emotion-based and relies on my ridiculously expansive game knowledge that you don't have (and I have a technical barrier if I'm being honest).
Personal recommendations for good "learning" Sheiks: old Teczero (especially vs Tri-state and WC when he went over for the GPF), old Forward (hard to find but worth it), old KDJ (though few vids exist of it sadly), Tope, Amsah (such an amazing first hit game & so good at counterfighting vs Falco - I recommend his P4 & P5 stuff strongly [minus him vs Hax]), and old Captain Jack (especially vs Ken, Peaches, and Foxes) are still great for learning her and I recommend learning from other good players. Me and Jason have a lot of really elaborate stylistic nuances (we don't look like other Sheiks IMO) so it can be hard to emulate some of our stuff without knowing our whole process. Heck, even old Drephen is still a great learning tool to get an idea on how you can break the game down into RPS. Basic combat RPS is easier than the option elimination sequences that I try to do and it's still an incredibly useful fundamental to know...
Honestly, the only thing I suggest a newbie try to learn (with the intention of emulating) from my Sheik is my shield game and my onstage punishment game (I still suck at gimping). Everything else is really personal and has been shaped to suit my strengths as a player.
Regarding video watching... don't neglect the other good Sheiks. There's more than me and Jason. For that matter, my Sheik idols when I was first learning her were Drephen, Forward, and Captain Jack. Notice how KDJ isn't there, despite him being the best Sheik of the time (2007 is when I became serious Sheik main). Heck, I likely stole more from Plank than the "best" Sheik (although Plank was really good back then). But yeah... Plank's stuff just made more sense to me so I found it easier to expand upon the strat and modify it to suit me. You won't necessarily learn the most from the best players of a character - I think this is tough for Sheiks anyway given our best players. M2K's style has a huge mindset and technique barrier (most of you don't want to play the level of defense his style & strats require) and mine is really emotion-based and relies on my ridiculously expansive game knowledge that you don't have (and I have a technical barrier if I'm being honest).
Personal recommendations for good "learning" Sheiks: old Teczero (especially vs Tri-state and WC when he went over for the GPF), old Forward (hard to find but worth it), old KDJ (though few vids exist of it sadly), Tope, Amsah (such an amazing first hit game & so good at counterfighting vs Falco - I recommend his P4 & P5 stuff strongly [minus him vs Hax]), and old Captain Jack (especially vs Ken, Peaches, and Foxes) are still great for learning her and I recommend learning from other good players. Me and Jason have a lot of really elaborate stylistic nuances (we don't look like other Sheiks IMO) so it can be hard to emulate some of our stuff without knowing our whole process. Heck, even old Drephen is still a great learning tool to get an idea on how you can break the game down into RPS. Basic combat RPS is easier than the option elimination sequences that I try to do and it's still an incredibly useful fundamental to know...
Honestly, the only thing I suggest a newbie try to learn (with the intention of emulating) from my Sheik is my shield game and my onstage punishment game (I still suck at gimping). Everything else is really personal and has been shaped to suit my strengths as a player.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
What about Lozr?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Oh yeah he's escaped.
...For now.
edit:
I want Trevor (from NC) more than anything though. That guy is like my type to the tee.
...For now.
edit:
I want Trevor (from NC) more than anything though. That guy is like my type to the tee.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Of course. But later.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Nurgle is obviously the Lord of Decay. Everything else is heresy.
Also a Sheik with M2k gimps, Amsah's first hit game and KK combos would be ridiculously good :D
Also a Sheik with M2k gimps, Amsah's first hit game and KK combos would be ridiculously good :D
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think most aspects of my first hit game have caught up with or surpassed Amsah's at this point tbh (mostly because he's semi-retired and heart condition johns) but I think his fairs are still better than mine overall. I excel in different areas though - I feel I have better dash attack placement than basically anyone, I think my f-tilt is only rivaled by M2K, and I think I use her shield better overall than Amsah. There are other things but those are the most striking to me. That said, it's largely 'cuz Amsah quit and I'm sad because he was a great rival and stuff.
But yeah that would be a godlike mix. I'd toss in Over's recovery game because it's really creative and he survives things vs Armada I don't think he can survive.
But yeah that would be a godlike mix. I'd toss in Over's recovery game because it's really creative and he survives things vs Armada I don't think he can survive.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Sorry if this sounds dumb or insensitive, but are you gay? I'm just curious, and sometimes people joke around about that in this community. Can you explain how you think m2ks style has a barrier in defensive play? Also, I want a wiki entry, but I would understand if you don't want to, things add up.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Am I gay? Let me ask my boyfriend, one sec.
Yep, definitely gay.
Regarding playstyles... I feel M2K's defense, particularly near the edge, requires a huge amount of patience & devotion to the strategy and it's a tough mentality to play effectively. Most people aren't willing to invest themselves so heavily into something like that (watch how many Foxes start by camping a Puff for time but then stop halfway - common occurrence on KJ64). Things like that are because few people want to play like that. Because they don't want to play like that, it becomes way harder to learn. Since you're always handling a limited option pool you feel pressured but it's tempting to go for anything because the tradeoff is ridiculous punishment potential. This is a tough mix to juggle.
I don't feel most players respond well to learning the game in such a limited way, or have the capacity to devote themselves so hard to a strat like that. He camps the edge even when he's behind because he knows his patience will outlast his opponents and he has to have enough leftover to play well and with composure. That's brutal.
Think about it as the Sheik. You can't get desperate despite how behind you may be because that may exacerbate your deficit. You can't lose composure either despite how scary it might be for the same reason. You have to catch the precise opening in the offense and then systematically cover options or make guesses - so even if you get the opening nothing is completely guaranteed. And if you flub, that's a huge loss in opportunity and you have to do it all over again. It's frustrating. These factors present a huge barrier to people trying to learn it because so much of learning it is suppression rather than expression.
In general, I think people are just usually more interested in interactive play and the fluid push-pull of Melee's combat. Learning it, it feels more natural and affords more expression of the player (opposed to such rigid discipline). M2K's a beast for being able to do it, and I respect him a ton for it. But the amount of discipline his style requires to be used (especially given how much I like to feel when I play) is why I shy away from trying to emulate his edge game and worked on my own punishment form that I prefer significantly now.
Melee generally rewards expression IMO. Your style is a reflection of how you want to win. Most people don't want to win M2K's way. That's just how people are.
Yep, definitely gay.
Regarding playstyles... I feel M2K's defense, particularly near the edge, requires a huge amount of patience & devotion to the strategy and it's a tough mentality to play effectively. Most people aren't willing to invest themselves so heavily into something like that (watch how many Foxes start by camping a Puff for time but then stop halfway - common occurrence on KJ64). Things like that are because few people want to play like that. Because they don't want to play like that, it becomes way harder to learn. Since you're always handling a limited option pool you feel pressured but it's tempting to go for anything because the tradeoff is ridiculous punishment potential. This is a tough mix to juggle.
I don't feel most players respond well to learning the game in such a limited way, or have the capacity to devote themselves so hard to a strat like that. He camps the edge even when he's behind because he knows his patience will outlast his opponents and he has to have enough leftover to play well and with composure. That's brutal.
Think about it as the Sheik. You can't get desperate despite how behind you may be because that may exacerbate your deficit. You can't lose composure either despite how scary it might be for the same reason. You have to catch the precise opening in the offense and then systematically cover options or make guesses - so even if you get the opening nothing is completely guaranteed. And if you flub, that's a huge loss in opportunity and you have to do it all over again. It's frustrating. These factors present a huge barrier to people trying to learn it because so much of learning it is suppression rather than expression.
In general, I think people are just usually more interested in interactive play and the fluid push-pull of Melee's combat. Learning it, it feels more natural and affords more expression of the player (opposed to such rigid discipline). M2K's a beast for being able to do it, and I respect him a ton for it. But the amount of discipline his style requires to be used (especially given how much I like to feel when I play) is why I shy away from trying to emulate his edge game and worked on my own punishment form that I prefer significantly now.
Melee generally rewards expression IMO. Your style is a reflection of how you want to win. Most people don't want to win M2K's way. That's just how people are.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
KK, you're taken?
BULL****
;_;
Also, I plan on getting a Gamecube soon. Gonna play some Melee again.
Smooth Criminal
BULL****
;_;
Also, I plan on getting a Gamecube soon. Gonna play some Melee again.
Smooth Criminal
soap
Smash Hero
The different styles of sheik was my favorite thing about her when I first started playing competitively. It was just fun to watch, regardless of what I incorporated personally. Hmm let's see:
Forward, Omar, DSF. Platforms, needles, and the origin of sheik's swag
Captain Jack, Amsah, smart aerial spacing and dash dancing
Drephen, KDJ, confrontational in your face ground games
When watching videos I would say it's equally as important to note the flaws in different styles, as in what situations are getting punished as opposed to just glossing over to the things that do work.
To me, KK feels like the modern prototype hybrid of all these guys.
It's funny that he ommitted KDJ as a heavy influence cuz I feel he is the missing piece of the puzzle. More aggresive first hit interceptions with a real strong aggressive gimp game would make KK's sheik extremely intimidating with the current punish game he has out there. Zoning is good, but I feel like it is not scary enough. Gives the opponent too much time to think and work around it.
I'm not sure what I'm specifically suggesting, these are just generalizations.
Forward, Omar, DSF. Platforms, needles, and the origin of sheik's swag
Captain Jack, Amsah, smart aerial spacing and dash dancing
Drephen, KDJ, confrontational in your face ground games
When watching videos I would say it's equally as important to note the flaws in different styles, as in what situations are getting punished as opposed to just glossing over to the things that do work.
To me, KK feels like the modern prototype hybrid of all these guys.
It's funny that he ommitted KDJ as a heavy influence cuz I feel he is the missing piece of the puzzle. More aggresive first hit interceptions with a real strong aggressive gimp game would make KK's sheik extremely intimidating with the current punish game he has out there. Zoning is good, but I feel like it is not scary enough. Gives the opponent too much time to think and work around it.
I'm not sure what I'm specifically suggesting, these are just generalizations.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I see what you mean about missing KDJ's aggressive interceptions but I feel I've always gravitated towards defense.
I don't think I could emulate that aspect. And efforts to do so would compromise the defense I've constructed.
Zoning really doesn't apply much pressure though - you're right about that. I've been working on it though. I have tricks.
edit:
That was a really nice compliment though. I'm blushing haha.
I don't think I could emulate that aspect. And efforts to do so would compromise the defense I've constructed.
Zoning really doesn't apply much pressure though - you're right about that. I've been working on it though. I have tricks.
edit:
That was a really nice compliment though. I'm blushing haha.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Did you really have a thing with PP? Super Melee team of romance? Never before could a team use the natural synergy of romance due to the dominance of males in smash.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Did I have a thing with PP at ROM3?
I dunno. You tell me.
I dunno. You tell me.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Oh wow.
My face is warm.
My face is warm.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Stop playing the innocent bystander plz. We all know who you are and we know you frequent the Peach boards. Me and PP is light compared to the nonsense that gets posted on that board.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I dunno. I often react similarly when I read stuff there. I'm still not used to it.
The Peach boards have actually been quiet and tactical, lately, too. For a while.
But...uh...sorry.
The Peach boards have actually been quiet and tactical, lately, too. For a while.
But...uh...sorry.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
We have an audience.
Hello L, Abu, and Wake. Welcome to my board.
Hello L, Abu, and Wake. Welcome to my board.
I'm just here watching ShroudedOne get put on the spot.
Also you should do a Wiki entry on me, because I know deep down you care about me.
Also you should do a Wiki entry on me, because I know deep down you care about me.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
L and I are like the biggest closet Sheik fanboy Fox mains you'll find.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Dude, I love you and L
But Tafo is definitely my biggest fan IMO
But Tafo is definitely my biggest fan IMO
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
You do appear to be physically close to him. . . Also, who is that guy in the dope wolf shirt?