Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Zoler]

puff and sheik are terran. fox and falco are just gay

thx =) since terran is and will always be the most manly race, we have Boxer, nuff said

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thx =) since terran is and will always be the most manly race, we have Jinro, nuff said

Fix'd .

 

[Acidile]

Thoughts on disabling lightshield on the trigger that you primarily shield with? It's making me PS alot of stuff, and I'm rolling by mistake alot less.

Also for some reason my RNCs got like 1123123x better and faster, guess I was hitting R a tiny bit early.

omg wdoos is easier too!

 

[soap]

i like being able to lightshield.

my finger is slightly off the trigger so i don't really press it by accident

if it works 4 u, keep doin it

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lightshielding is pretty important.

Especially when FALCON KEEPS SHIELD STABBING YOU WITH HIS NAIR. God dammit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hate lightshielding vs Falcon.

Though I don't do the MU correctly at all so w/e.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falcon's nair is hard to punish when it's spaced at tip range, even if you CC it.

Discuss.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's hard for me to address that because most of my Falcon game is spent trying to make Falcon's life miserable as far as max-ranging goes. He's really quite stationary when he's approaching because he either dives into battle super far or he stays in place.

I can see where you're coming from though. Falcon's Nair is pretty good. I should play with s2j probably to figure this out.

I wish I had Falcons to play against at home.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've started using bair and nair more (and also dashing under Falcon's running SHs). And I've been doing better.

It's still frustrating to me when Falcons do fast fallen nair -> gentleman on my shield. I feel helpless to punish it consistently, if that makes sense.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If he's spaced adequately, don't bother trying to punish it. Too much effort and it can backfire too easily. Just WD back OOS and escape the **** (or similar). Make him work to put you into a disadvantaged situation again. Because the more you make Falcon work, the more he wants to hit you, and when Falcon tries to actually hit people, his limitations become glaringly obvious.

When it comes down to it, Falcon's first hit game is not very good. It largely depends on you trying to punish things that you can't punish. He's not a good initiator and sucks at direct action.

So play to that.

 

[Witchblade]

You can almost always grab aerial -> gentleman, either after the second punch or after the knee.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If he does gentlemen > Jump / dash away as fast as possible, can you grab it?

 

[soap]

i buffer roll behind during the jabs sometimes. easy punish if they mess up and start rapid jabbing.

 

[Witchblade]

If he does gentlemen > Jump / dash away as fast as possible, can you grab it?

You can grab right before or right after the knee, but if the Falcon uses his IASA frames perfectly you have to be frame perfect as well. In NTSC, Falcons probably delay their knee a little, even if subconsciously, to avoid rapid punching, so it might be best to grab after the second jab.

Edit: just checked Falcon's frame-data and it seems you actually have a (1 frame + shieldstun) disadvantage for grabbing after the second jab, a (2 frame - shieldstun) advantage for grabbing inbetween jabs (wtf) and a (10* frame + however many frames you can grab him while he's airborne - shieldstun) advantage for grabbing a Falcon that buffers a jump after the gentleman. I don't know at which frame a Falcon with perfect spacing can dash out of grab range.

*: I assume here that 'intermediary animation' below refers to the animation after the knee.

Jab

Total: 21
Hit: 3-5
Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 9
-------------------------------------
Jab 2

Total: 20
Hit: 5-7
Window of the knee: 2-25
Knee starts: 8
-------------------------------------
Jab 3 (Knee/gentleman)

Total: 12
Hit: 6-12
intermediary animation: 5 frames

NOTE: to get the knee without the
jabs, don't interrupt either punch
animation; instead, hit A after it's
over.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's useful to know.

 

[soap]

so grab after knee is easiest?

 

[ArcNatural]

Do you guys have any thoughts on double sheik vs a jiggs/fox team?

I actually think it's pretty effective as they can feed/protect each other pretty well, dominate 2v1s and can poke jiggs reallly well 2v1 with spaced fairs.

 

[Witchblade]

so grab after knee is easiest?

You have a frame disadvantage, so I wouldn't recommend it. He could buffer a spotdodge or a jump and punish you. However, this is really a theory vs. practice thing. No one can do this stuff frame-perfectly.

 

[Kira-]

How much is shieldstun for each hit? It's not clear that you have a disadvantage after the knee from the way you put it, looks like you have an advantage after the first jab and the knee.

 

[Zoler]

- Does anybody have any advice on how to deal with Jigglypuff in PAL?

It feels like I can do literally nothing but chuck needles at them if they decide to crouch cancel all day. I imagine it's a tough matchup in NTSC but without the NTSC down thrown and up-air she's an absolute nightmare to deal with.

I feel the same, once in a while I lose to this terrible puff in my area, feels bad man

I just try to space random stuff like fair, nair and bair. Like, nothing else lol, tilts are pretty awful, I dsmash sometimes tho but I guess a good puff would punish it pretty easily.

I don't really needle that much.

 

[unknown522]

man, I had so much fun with sheik at P5. I gotta work on her more.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

do it your sheik is hawt.

and sheik requires much less technical precision.

but she ain't no fox.

Opinions on the sheik vs puff matchup anyone? Specifically, should I practice fox for it due to obvious reasons or just attempt sheik. Is it really winnable? I did see wobbles get beat by Rayku recently, which was motivating for that MU

 

[gm jack]

- Does anybody have any advice on how to deal with Jigglypuff in PAL?

It feels like I can do literally nothing but chuck needles at them if they decide to crouch cancel all day. I imagine it's a tough matchup in NTSC but without the NTSC down thrown and up-air she's an absolute nightmare to deal with.

it is really tricky as it tend to descend into a spacing battle, but they can combo of most hits and you can't.

Against LJ and frgu's puffs (not great, but ok), I've been liking needles whenever they give a safe chance to hit with them (to try and stop the crouch cancel that bit earlier), spacing aerials if they insist on crouching and otherwise triyng to stay on the ground, and then either fairing them out of late aerials or crouching under then ftilt -> uair/fair on the higher, retreated aerials. If they keep doing them quite high, you may be able to WD under the bair and hit out of that.

DI on the Utilts etc is essential, because sheik can't punish missed rests that well.

You do out range her, but her aerial manoeuvrability makes her so much safer. Try to look for the points where they have committed to something they can't just retreat and punish for it.

 

[Twin_A]

What are some quick tips for luigi? I remember discussing it a while back in here but I haven't searched yet. Wondering if I can get a few more opinions before I play one in tourney this weekend

 

[unknown522]

kk:

tr3mor: pocket fox sucks; just play sheik

twin: just be really gay after d-throw and do sh aerials a lot and cc f-tilt > grab and you'll **** him. block a lot, luigi doesn't really have good pressure.

 

[stelzig]

I feel the same, once in a while I lose to this terrible puff in my area, feels bad man

I just try to space random stuff like fair, nair and bair. Like, nothing else lol, tilts are pretty awful, I dsmash sometimes tho but I guess a good puff would punish it pretty easily.

I don't really needle that much.

Yeh needles, aerials, and lots of wavedashing and wavelanding against passive puffs... I say that with very little experience though. I only just started going back to sheik because I lost alot of faith in marth recently (and most of my wins lately have been when I cop-out and use sheik who I haven't even used in friendlies for a long time...)
Think you need to mix it up a bit more if you go up against a more aggressive puff that doesn't crouch or camp all day.

 

[Witchblade]

Theoretically, your aerials are better than puff's and you have a projectile, so you should win. The main problem, however, against puff is that you have to be damn consistent and damn patient. Wrong DI on an uptilt, bad spacing or a single bad decision can easily cost you a stock. Puff can try rests until ~70% and you can't punish it effectively. Puff can edge guard very effectively by going off stage and hitting you or waiting for your up-b on stage and resting and you practically can't edge guard her. Combined with rest, no upair kill and no grab to fair (PAL) your kill potential sucks and hers is great.

 

[nicaboy]

@tremor rayku for some reason is ******** good vs ic's(he beat uber ice too). He says just space fairs and that **** works! I also played wobbels for like 40 mins and was doing good. we traded matches(he won most of them though) but man when that mother****er grabed me it wasnt pretty! I dont think the match is as bad a sheik mains make it out to be.(wobbles thinks its pretty even after talking to him about it awhile ago.)

vs puff i still think sheik wins. sorry kk but my b air her bs! its not hard sheiks just get ****ing impatient vs puff. Oh and rely on grabs too much lol. I WISH MY MATCH VS HBOX WAS RECORDED AT NOOB 3!

I was doing nasty **** and lost cuz I killed myself could have went either way but he just pulls threw in the end alot man lol. I zero to death him twice (ya thats right puff)

anyway i feel sheiks mobilty aerials and neddles just put puff in her place if you know what your doing. D tilt is rather nice alot of the times. Sheiks crouch can also be useful at times.

 

[Twin_A]

Wow noob learn to Luigi

God this is like when that noob nicaboy couldn't beat Blea Gelo all over again

D-throw Nair sucks

You can D-throw Uair him at every percent (until like 145%+) against every DI he does so like do that a lot because it ***** like nothing you've ever seen. Then you prey on Luigi players having a dependency on the Green button and shield grab the Nair after you Uair. Oh yeah don't Uair until 15 because he'll break out before you land, before like 15 you have to F-tilt and then do it if he DIs away, at like 0 you can U-tilt but otherwise don't.

If they don't Nair to try and combo break because they double jump you just go under them and wait because Luigi sucks when people are beneath him. If they don't Nair to try and combo break because they air dodge you just wait for the dodge and **** him because Luigi sucks. If they do nothing to try and combo break you Nair OOS or U-smash OOS if you're baller. Or make something hilarious up and it'll probably work because he's DOING NOTHING.

Needles ****

WD OOS ***** SUPER HARD

Dash into shield *****

DI his throws behind him unless you like being combo'd for some weird reason

It can be dangerous to get above him with simple jumps because his WD U-tilt ***** so don't be stupid with your aerials but they're really good against him if you use them carefully

Platform camping alright and by that I mean it's pretty **** but don't be a dumb dumb with it

Don't tilt when he's grounded. Tilts are actually not that good vs Luigi.

Edgeguard with awesome ****, so basically do Needles and invincible Bair/Nair, you can jump off but if you do then do your move kind of early so if he misfires you'll beat it because you're FAWKIN SHEIK

D-throw Fair to put him offstage is nasty

If you're baller after the D-throw Uair/F-tilt you can gamble your timing skills against his Nair and D-smash and try to get the invincible hit and then **** through his Nair and he'll be like "whoa" and you'll be like MOTHERFAWKER

Oh yeah never D-smash his shield for any reason unless you like being Up+Bed or D-smashed into combos

KK's Luigi how-to guide brought back for anyone who needs it. <3 KK

 

[omgwtfToph]

awesome. thanks

<3 KK

 

[linkoninja]

Hey guys I'm a Falcon/Marth main, but I play Sheik a little bit on the side. I know she's a GREAT teams character, so I'm lost as to whether or not f I should stick with my mains or go Sheik in a doubles tournament I'm entering. I'm in this one to win it. Basically is Sheik THAT much better in teams than Falcon or Marth?

 

[Ministry]

if your teaming with puff i would sugest falcon, if your teaming with fox or falco i would sugest sheik and if your teaming with falcon maybe marth or fox

 

[gm jack]

It all depends on how good you are with each character. Sheik can be much better than either, but your skill with the character and how you cooperate with your team mate are much more important factors.

 

[Barrier]

What are some quick tips for luigi? I remember discussing it a while back in here but I haven't searched yet. Wondering if I can get a few more opinions before I play one in tourney this weekend

Uh.

FTilt. Grab.

DThrow techchasing. Literally all you need, the matchup is terrible for Luigi.

*Edit* Ninja'd.

 

[KirbyKaze]

F-tilt is not good vs Luigi because his CC ***** it and he can trade Nair with it in combos.

D-throw tech chase only works on stages with platforms if Luigi decides to go on them (which he should not be doing if he wants to live because her platform follows are better than her air combo follows).

The matchup is terrible for him, but it has little to do with her F-tilt. It's more to do with her strong, ranged aerials and throw game.

 

[Barrier]

FTilt is actually a very good anti-aerial option, which is the position he's usually approaching from, besides doing a wavedash > Grab/DSmash. If Luigi is doing a wavedash > move, a FTilt, at least in my experience, usually hits him or at least caused significant shieldstun so that I could grab or react.

Sheik does have vastly superior aerial options, granted. And platforms are good for Luigi too, adds to ground and aerial momentum.

I don't think Luigi can sufficiently recover against a smart, edgeguarding Sheik.

 

[Beat!]

inb4 KK tears that post apart

 

[Barrier]

I live in the same region as David. Wouldn't be surprised LOL.

That's my take on certain scenarios, though. But I wouldn't say it's concrete fact.

 

[KirbyKaze]

FTilt is actually a very good anti-aerial option, which is the position he's usually approaching from, besides doing a wavedash > Grab/DSmash. If Luigi is doing a wavedash > move, a FTilt, at least in my experience, usually hits him or at least caused significant shieldstun so that I could grab or react.

Luigi's aerial approach sucks and loses to everything.

His main approach or poke or whatever you call it is some variation of F-tilt. Luigi's F-tilt is more easily and more effectively countered by things that aren't Sheik's F-tilt. The same applies to his D-smash and other nonsense. On that note, I don't like weak moves vs characters with good CC games that spend the bulk of their game on the ground.

I could get into it more but I don't feel like it.

Sheik does have vastly superior aerial options, granted. And platforms are good for Luigi too, adds to ground and aerial momentum.

No. Platforms are bad for him.

He sucks at chasing people on them and it emphasizes his low aerial mobility. His waveland is compromised by how floaty he is; he takes forever to come down. It also ruins his Up+B punish and forces him to grind Dairs that often won't form an edgeguard loop because of their trajectory.

I don't think Luigi can sufficiently recover against a smart, edgeguarding Sheik.

This is correct.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi goes "YA YA WAHOO" and Sheik goes "lol tu tu" -> grab.